Thread: All? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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Our brother, Dubious Thomas, has the following verse as the footnote to his postings, with added emphases:
quote:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22
The implication is that because we're all dead, we all - i.e. all people - will be made alive.
I don't see that.
Let me add emphases of my own:
quote:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22
It seems to me that we are all, by birth, in Adam and therefore we 'die' (spiritually). However, in order to be 'made alive' we must be in Christ . I believe that the whole weight of Scripture is behind the idea that being in Christ is a matter of conscious choice and not a natural or even 'imposed' state.
To be alive, the all in Paul's verse, must have decided to be in Christ
Those who are not in Christ will therefore not be 'made alive.'
Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on
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Don't forget there's also Romans 5 12-21 which expands this theme. I think it's very hard to argue from that that when Paul says 'all' he only means 'all Christians'.
The impact of your interpretation is essentially that Adam is more powerful than Christ. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on
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Yes, please:
I'll take a nuanced discussion on universalism, with a side order of grace. Bring it on!
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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But Romans 5 which does indeed speak of an abundant provision of grace, specifically says that that such grace is given to those who receive it.
I think we would need to look very carefully at the phrases 'in Adam' and 'in Christ'.
What does it mean to be in Adam?
What does it mean to be in Christ?
I would suggest that being in Adam is the natural human condition.
Being 'in Christ', according to Paul, is not automatic. He says 'IF any man be in Christ he is a new creation...'
He writes to 'those who are in Christ', implying that there are those who are not in Christ.
He also writes 'Now that you are in Him, continue, go on walking [I]in Him, rooted and built up in Him
Paul very much makes a difference between those in Christ and those not. He writes 'You did not know Jesus ; but now you have entered into Him
And finally he writes, regarding baptism, Romans 6:3, "Do you not know that all of us who were baptised [I]into Christ Jesus[?I] were baptised into his death?'
I think there is a clear difference between all those who are in Adam - all humanity - and all those who have been made in Christ - the redeemed, the receivers and partakers of grace.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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Oh! And just to correct the implication that grace is limited - the grace of God is provided for the world, available to all; Christ died for the entire world so that provision is made for all to be in Christ with non excluded or uninvited. The invitation, however, must be received and 'replied to' as it were. I think Christ told a couple of parables about that.
Grace is overflowing and abundant - but it does not save the unwilling.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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I am sorry, I have just realised that this thread has been started in Purgatory. I didn't mean that to happen, I thought I was still in Kergmania.
Would the Hosts be happy to transfer us please?
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Yeah but.
Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What does it mean to be in Adam?
What does it mean to be in Christ?
I don't think there is a difference to be made between the all who are in Adam and the all who are in Christ. This is just a distinction which Sola Scriptura Protestants make in order to bend the words of Scripture to fit their damnationist beliefs. However the meaning of being in Adam or in Christ relates to obedience and is well described thus in the Theologia Germanica chapter 13:
"Everything that perished and died in Adam was raised again and made alive in Christ. And everything that was raised and made alive in Adam perished and died in Christ. What did this and does this mean? I answer: true obedience and disobedience."
Posted by Dubious Thomas (# 10144) on
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Dear Mudfrog (and everyone else),
First, I thank you for referring to me as "our brother." A very thoughtful and kind choice.
Second, thanks for your inquiry about the correct interpretation and application of the scripture I'm using for my signature.
At this time, I'm going to refrain from contributing to this thread (or any other -- apart from this one post here). I've decided to re-lurk for the next two weeks (Holy Week and "Bright Week"), because I think it will be easier to focus on the celebration of Christ's redemption of the universe (the whole thing! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
) without the distraction of arguments -- even arguments with someone who shows such brotherly kindness.
If this thread still has "life" in it in two weeks, and I think I have anything worth "saying," I'll jump back in.
Before-the-fact wishes for a "Happy Easter!"
[ 12. April 2014, 21:09: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Admirable Dubious Thomas. God bless you. Your return is keenly awaited. Brother.
Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22
(Dubious Thomas' emphasis)
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22
(Mudfrog's emphasis)
The Bible can mean many things to many people, and I've yet to meet a Christian who doesn't emphasise what they want, according to their own viewpoint, and gloss over what doesn't fit their theories. I think Mudfrog is doing that here. I don't read Greek, but the English in this quote is the same in every version, so it can't be controversial and it's very simple English.
It could easly be paraphrased as, By the actions of Adam, all die(present tense), even so, by the actions of Christ shall all(future tense) be made alive. So Adam causes the present death of us all, and Christ causes the future life of us all. To attribute any other meaning is to add layers of meaning which aren't there, in order to prove a point that Christ doesn't save all, which is Mudfrog's starting point. It's a creative use of punctuation to change a plain meaning to suit a preconceived idea. IMo it's wrong.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Oh! And just to correct the implication that grace is limited - the grace of God is provided for the world, available to all; Christ died for the entire world so that provision is made for all to be in Christ with non excluded or uninvited. The invitation, however, must be received and 'replied to' as it were. I think Christ told a couple of parables about that.
Grace is overflowing and abundant - but it does not save the unwilling.
Of course that begs the question if it is possible to repent in Hell.
Perhaps in the end, all will freely choose God, even in the depths of hell.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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Dubious Thomas, I hope you have a good break - God bless you.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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PaulTH I don't think we can just say that we're discussing tenses and punctuation. Simply to take this one verse and use it to say that we are 'all' saved is to ignore those verses I have posted further up the thread.
To be 'in Christ' has a very specific meaning and what I think you are arguing is a different thing. Had Paul said 'By Adam, or because of Adam we all die, and by Christ or because of Christ all will be made alive,' then you may have a point.
But he didn't say that. He used the specific phrase 'in' Adam, 'in' Christ. it's a word of incorporation, identification. We are 'in Adam' by nature of our humanity. But to be 'in Christ' we have to be incorporated. Theolocally we would need to be baptised into Christ in order to be 'in Christ' - we need to be be born again/from above and all manner of other metaphors or explanations. The New Testament is very clear: to be 'in Christ' has a specific meaning - and it is clear that whilst we are all 'in Adam', not all are 'in Christ.'
We could say 'As all who belong to Adam die, so all who belong to Christ will be made alive.'
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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I am having problems with the phrase, "the invitation has to be replied to."
Are you suggesting that we have it in our nature to RSVP to this wonderful invitation from God?
Sorry, I don't by that. It is our nature to reject and resist the invitation.
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength come to Jesus but that the Holy Spirit has called me through the Gospel. My response to the invitation, is the work of the Holy Spirit, and not of my own doing.
I too believe that in Christ all will be restored.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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Indeed Gramps, we cannot simply 'decide to follow Jesus' - but there is an invitation by grace that can be accepted or rejected. The parable of the banquet reveals this. My tradition calls this prevenient grace - grace that is given to enable a response. It can be rejected - just as the parable reveals.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But Romans 5 which does indeed speak of an abundant provision of grace, specifically says that that such grace is given to those who receive it.
That's kind of tautological, isn't it? If I give something to you, then you receive it. By definition. Hard to draw any deep conclusions from the "those who receive it" codicil.
quote:
The invitation, however, must be received and 'replied to' as it were. I think Christ told a couple of parables about that.
Grace is overflowing and abundant - but it does not save the unwilling.
Yikes! Mudfrog, suddenly you're semi-Pelagian.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But Romans 5 which does indeed speak of an abundant provision of grace, specifically says that that such grace is given to those who receive it.
That's kind of tautological, isn't it? If I give something to you, then you receive it. By definition. Hard to draw any deep conclusions from the "those who receive it" codicil.
quote:
The invitation, however, must be received and 'replied to' as it were. I think Christ told a couple of parables about that.
Grace is overflowing and abundant - but it does not save the unwilling.
Yikes! Mudfrog, suddenly you're semi-Pelagian.
No, I'm a Wesleyan. I believe in prevenient grace but not irrestistable grace.
[ 13. April 2014, 14:24: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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I know of no such parable.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I know of no such parable.
Seriously??
The parable of the dinner
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Yep. Seriously. Especially that one.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No, I'm a Wesleyan. I believe in prevenient grace but not irrestistable grace.
Hmm. Wesley was more Orthodox than I thought.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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@OP, the question: All?
I think so. Those who deserve it least, need it most.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
@OP, the question: All?
I think so. Those who deserve it least, need it most.
What does that even mean?
We are all equally undeserving of grace - that's a given: we have all fallen short of the glory of God.
We all need grace equally as well. It cannot be the case that some of us need less grace than others.
Grace is available not automatic.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... I think there is a clear difference between all those who are in Adam - all humanity - and all those who have been made in Christ - the redeemed, the receivers and partakers of grace.
I think there are two kinds of people in the world: those who are binary, and those who are not. And there's definitely a clear difference between them.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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'Would you like grace with that?'
'What?'
'Some unmerited pardon.'
'What?'
'For your regeneration and sanctification.'
'What?'
...
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
... I think there is a clear difference between all those who are in Adam - all humanity - and all those who have been made in Christ - the redeemed, the receivers and partakers of grace.
If so, it certainly isn't in their behavior.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
@OP, the question: All?
I think so. Those who deserve it least, need it most.
What does that even mean?
We are all equally undeserving of grace - that's a given: we have all fallen short of the glory of God.
We all need grace equally as well. It cannot be the case that some of us need less grace than others.
Grace is available not automatic.
That is is commonly said. I am not fond of the "magic words" approach, where if you haven't uttered and believe the words, you don't get a ticket to heaven.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Grace is available not automatic.
That is is commonly said. I am not fond of the "magic words" approach, where if you haven't uttered and believe the words, you don't get a ticket to heaven.
Which really, if you think about it, is the version that should be called "automatic."
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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Indeed - and I, being a Salvationist (i.e. having a theology and practice that majors heavily on personal salvation) would entirely reject any suggestion that salvation is received simply through the recitation of a few chosen sentences.
Neither is it received through the sprinkling of a few drops of water and spoken priestly prayer, neither is it maintained simply by the act of receiving communion elements, wearing a Salvation Army uniform, or giving any kind of mental assent to a body of doctrines or participation in an act of worship.
Salvation is through wholehearted repentance and faith, by the grace of God - which faith, of course, can be strengthened sacramentally - but which must lead to a life of holiness, discipleship and union with Christ.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Salvation is through wholehearted repentance and faith, by the grace of God - which faith, of course, can be strengthened sacramentally - but which must lead to a life of holiness, discipleship and union with Christ.
But there's the point. These un-wholehearted folks don't deserve grace, so don't get it, and they are the ones, in my view who need it the most.
The holiness, discipleship and union is nice if you can get it. Most people just make do with a little wee bit of kindness, if they can get it.
Automatic? Like breathing I guess. In goes the good air, out goes the bad.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Salvation is through wholehearted repentance and faith, by the grace of God - which faith, of course, can be strengthened sacramentally - but which must lead to a life of holiness, discipleship and union with Christ.
But there's the point. These un-wholehearted folks don't deserve grace, so don't get it, and they are the ones, in my view who need it the most.
The holiness, discipleship and union is nice if you can get it. Most people just make do with a little wee bit of kindness, if they can get it.
Automatic? Like breathing I guess. In goes the good air, out goes the bad.
And evidently no need for belief, faith or trust.
Well that's the New Testament out of the window then...
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Belief, faith and trust without kindness are ... bollocks.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
... I think there is a clear difference between all those who are in Adam - all humanity - and all those who have been made in Christ - the redeemed, the receivers and partakers of grace.
If so, it certainly isn't in their behavior.
That's actually me quoting Mudfrog. My head almost exploded when I read that I wrote that!
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