Ship of Fools: Thank you Desert Daughter

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter :
TICTH the depressing chimes of "tolerance won" upon the winning of the European Song Contest by an utterly disgusting hermaphrodite monster. I normally do not agree with Russian politicians, but for once they are right in saying that it is a sign of European decadence. It is indeed. And all those weakbrained idiots of the PC thought police who "celebrate" "diversity" can go and take a hike. As much as the simpleton brigades (ie the "public mainstream") have gobbled up the most outlandish theories voiced by pot smoking postmodernists in the 60s and 70s, there **are** things that are abnormal, disgusting, and unnatural. But most people are just too stupid to realise that - they cheer at yet another absurd monstrosity and love to feel good ("tolerant", "open") about it.
All I can say is, why don't you just go and bury your noses in shit? For it seems you have no sense of what is disgusting.
Decadent morons

I didn't see the Eurovision Song Contest. Maybe the act was terrible. But all you care about is the fact that it was performed by a transvestite? I assume most of Mozart's and Handel's operas are equally disgusting given that they often have women singing the parts of male characters?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Doesn't pantomime goes the same way too, with principal boys and dames?

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

There is a difference between art (and the quirks of an artist) and wallowing in tasteless vulgarity.

And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

Gerasu,

If you want to, you can see Conchita's performance here. Personally I thought it was a cracking performance.

Be the best version of yourself rather than a bad copy of someone else!

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.

Um, yeah. Right. Sure, you bet.

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
utterly disgusting hermaphrodite monster.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
There is a difference between art (and the quirks of an artist) and wallowing in tasteless vulgarity.

And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.

But Eurovision is entirely about tasteless vulgarity and decadence. Why single out this one act?

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
If you want to, you can see Conchita's performance here. Personally I thought it was a cracking performance.

wow, what a set of pipes on her!

I fail to see how that is bad taste and decadence and Miley Cyrus's antics somehow are okay? get the fuck over yourself. I'd rather see a talented and dignified diva blow the roof off with a performance like that rather than some grotesque little child play stripper for the shock value. And I really don't care about the status of the block and tackle.

DD, climb back into your cave like a good little throwback. luckily your kind are dying off, though obviously not soon enough.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Desert Daughter

quote:
And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.

Bad taste? Bad taste was the act from Poland: two females with enormous surgically 'enhanced' bosoms barely contained by faux milkmaid outfits performing a suggestive routine with a butter churn of the pole variety - THAT was disgusting.

The artiste from Austria, in contrast, wore a dress up to the neck and down to the floor and made no suggestive movements. Sure, s/he had a beard, but even that was properly groomed.

And s/he didn't sing badly either.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant.

No, but it's blatantly transphobic.

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

Years ago I went to see a production of Julius Caesar at the globe. The actors were all men including Calpurnia and Portia. I hope Desert Daughter was outside with her placard saying "Ulster Says No To The AntiChrist", although I can't say I noticed her.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Desert Daughter
quote:
And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.
Bad taste? Bad taste was the act from Poland: two females with enormous surgically 'enhanced' bosoms barely contained by faux milkmaid outfits performing a suggestive routine with a butter churn of the pole variety - THAT was disgusting.

I'd require further evidence to ascertain whether the ladies in question were packing silicon. Having watched the video repeatedly and in minute detail, all seemed perfectly in order.

Also, they clearly had laundry on their minds, not milking.

As to the Austrian entry, well... I fail to see a problem here either. Or aren't transvestites allowed to appear in public these days?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Obviously your acquaintance doesn't run to many Hijra. The trans or intra-gendered have always been there - sometimes sacred, sometimes outcast - but part of what humanity is.

I'm sorry you don't like Conchita: I thought she was an extra ordinary expression of the beauty and mystery of androgyny.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

What, exactly, is disgusting about a born male wearing a dress and using a female name ? Or someone being trans ?

What is it that repels you Desert Daughter ?

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Desert Daughter
quote:
And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.
Bad taste? Bad taste was the act from Poland: two females with enormous surgically 'enhanced' bosoms barely contained by faux milkmaid outfits performing a suggestive routine with a butter churn of the pole variety - THAT was disgusting.

Interestingly, the voting public in Britain didn't see it that way. Poland came top in the UK televoting, with Austria in third place. Because the British jury placed Poland 25th, she came out with a combined rank of 11th place and no points. I haven't looked at other countries to see whether this pattern is repeated.

While the Frau Wurst / Herr Neuwirth act wasn't really to my taste, why on earth are Russian politicians being invoked here? Does Desert Daughter really know what kind of behaviour these sort of people are encouraging?!

[ 11. May 2014, 21:20: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Yes, well, Austria is the country that gave us a three-hour glorification of adultery, marital deceit and drunkenness among the parasitic over-indulged drones of the over-wealthy, in which the chief exponent of alcoholic dissolution is the transvestite Count Orlovsky - I refer of course to Johann Strauss II's Die Fledermaus.

I of course stood outside Covent Garden with my placard - Desert Daughter should have joined me but accidentally went here instead due to being terminally moronic.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Desert Daughter should have joined me but accidentally went here instead due to being terminally moronic.

According to this link, it's Open Mic night at the Pig & Whistle. We should so get DD to do a turn there.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

I have no idea whether Tom Neuwirth, the man in question, is a 'hermaphrodite'. Neither do I know with which gender, if any, he prefers to spend his leisure time. I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference to the performance.

Conchita Wurst is a drag persona. I looked up what Conchita means (and yes, 'little seashell' is slang for exactly what you think it might refer to...) and it's easy to guess what 'Wurst' might refer to. Plus the dress sense and the impressive beard are a bit of a giveaway. So I guess you could describe the character as a hermaphrodite.

Forgive me for not being shocked by this. I come from a country where men in drag are included in our children's first experience of the theatre, though pantomime dames are usually less fabulous than Conchita.

Personally, I thought she was one of the best performers of the night, which is why she got my vote. I too thought the Polish entry was far more sleazy (and if you think that was bad, you should check out the video version).

I presume DD is not familiar with Eurovision. Let's just say that if you removed all suggestion of anything gay from Eurovision, it would be about three minutes long, and have an audience of about 25 people. Conchita isn't even the first drag queen to have won - that honour goes to Dana International from Israel back in the 1980s.

Now please excuse me, I must get back to my viewing of the NBC's live broadcast version of 'The Sound of Music'. A nice, wholesome story about heroic Austrians overcoming oppression and winning song contests...

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.

Having listened to the performances, I'd say the bad taste we're deploring is yours, because Conchita Wurst was clearly one of the top 2 or 3 solo singers in the competition.

I mean, the whole competition is full of reasonably vapid pop songs that aren't ever going to go down in the annals of music as high art, but in terms of sheer performance of those reasonably vapid pop songs, she was definitely one of the relatively few who truly impressed. And ideally it's SUPPOSED to be about the music, not about how someone looks. Flagrant Polish breasts and a rather short Italian dress notwithstanding.

At least a couple of the other favourites had slightly wobbly performances on the night, in my opinion.

But then, I would have given my top vote to Malta, so what do I know. 23rd place. Sigh. However on the whole it seemed to me the voting results were a pretty reasonable reflection of the quality of the songs and performances. Goodness knows there was real justice in the French coming last - awful.

The main point, though, is that it would help if you could get past screaming "IT WAS A DRAG ACT" to notice that it was an incredibly GOOD drag act and had enough artistic merit to win.

The fact that you're purely talking about appearance, and made no mention of how the song SOUNDED, says to me that you are in fact embarking on the kind of homophobic rant that one normally starts or ends by saying 'this is not a homophobic rant'.

[ 12. May 2014, 03:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

The Eurovision song contest really gas become contest of who can be the most outrageous, who is the biggest freak. I don't watch it anyway, but that's how it seems to me. But them we are talking about the entertainment industry, most of which is a bit funny anyway.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Probably predictable of me but I find the singer glorious, in voice and in form.

No sarcasm at all, the dress and the beard are curiously harmonic. They just sort of flow together.

And being aware that some people can't see that beauty makes me feel 1. gratitude that I can and 2. pity that they can't. Your loss, Desert Daughter.

[ 12. May 2014, 04:36: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
utterly disgusting hermaphrodite monster

I'm missing something. We have a beard and a male voice counterpoised with a floor-length gown, long hair, painted nails, ear rings, eye makeup. I'll give you "utterly disgusting:" there is certainly no accounting for taste. I, for another point of view, don't view the performer this way.

"Hermaphrodite"? Do you mean born with primary sexual characteristics of male and female? There is really no evidence of that. You clearly don't know what this word means.

"Monster." More stone cold ignorance. Beside Lesbian seagulls, God's creation is positively littered with hermaphroditic, sex-changing, third-sex, no-sex creatures. You should do your homework before you post.

The monsters are the quick-with-the-scalpel Dr. Butchers who mutilate babies born with unusual genitals.

quote:
Russian politicians

Are you sure you really want to ally yourself with the imploding nuclear state that is Holy Russia.

quote:
there **are** things that are abnormal, disgusting, and unnatural.

Yup. And, you have yet to identify one.

ETA: I am always appreciative of your knowledgeable posts on Evagrius, though. Thank you for them and please keep them coming.

[ 12. May 2014, 05:00: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't watch it anyway, but that's how it seems to me.

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
...
Interestingly, the voting public in Britain didn't see it that way. Poland came top in the UK televoting, with Austria in third place.

Oh, cheers. I think you can get lot from that.
(So Georgian people put it higher than British.).

Personally I thought it ok but not amazing (though am tone deaf and basing on half listened semis, and thought that about all of them)
So was pleased when the countries Graham thought as homophobic proved him wrong*. But got slightly disappointed when it the votes seemed streotypical.

Also pleased the c-saus comments are based on something not just insults (which shows how little attention I paid).

*though I gather the relations between the various phobia's is complex, so it doesn't really.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

@Desert Daughter. Are you from the past?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I thought Conchita looked and sounded great.

It was good to see someone daring to be different in a bland and dreary show which had been totally over-hyped.

The voting public obviously loved Conchita too!

[Smile]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I was a great fan of drag acts about 40 years ago, as there were some brilliant acts in London, doing mostly comedy. So it's nice to see it reach mainstream. Is it true that the Russians tried to have Conchita cut out, if you'll pardon the innuendo? Fucking bigots.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

DD, you want him, badly.

I know honey, it's OK. It's the beard, my mum had one too.

Pyx_e

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't watch it anyway, but that's how it seems to me.

One can learn enough of what is going on there through the media, or even boards such as this one, without having to watch it. Yes, it's a big freak show but as I said, the entertainment industry is notoriously funny, so to speak.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Conchita isn't even the first drag queen to have won - that honour goes to Dana International from Israel back in the 1980s.

Actually, twas 1998 - and to be extra pedantic, I'm not sure drag queen is accurate, I think Dana International is a post-op transsexual, which is probably just as abhorrent to DD. The point still stands though.

I thought it was a good, well performed song, not my favourite style of music, but that's not really the point.

Know what I thought was disgusting? The continual booing of the 2 17 year old Russian girls who only wanted to sing for their country on the international stage.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Well, Finland did win with a heavy metal band that wears monster masks. I think a general observation that Eurovision is geared towards outlandishness is fair comment.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
We have a beard and a male voice counterpoised with a floor-length gown, long hair, painted nails, ear rings, eye makeup.

The majority of male clergy in the main Christian denominations wear floor length gowns, often far more elaborate than this performer's.

As for long hair, painted nails, ear rings and eye make; long hair and ear rings are currently perfectly normal male accoutrements and have been in many eras and cultures for centuries.

The Laughing Cavalier

King Henry VIII

The painted nails and make up are less mainstream in our culture at present but have been considered normal in many over the course of human evolution.

Your reaction Desert Daughter, and your need to post it here in such language says more about you than about the quality of a public performance, where the style of presentation was completely in keeping with the event. Just as the wearing of embroidered and bejewelled robes is in keeping with the events at which clergy wear them.

[ 12. May 2014, 07:49: Message edited by: Thyme ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Come to think of it, the labelling of anything from Eurovision as 'unnatural' is a bit pointless. How many acts on Eurovision are ever 'natural'? Not many.

The Dutch pretty well just stood there singing to each other, to great acclaim, albeit the guy has named himself Waylon to increase his country cred and one doesn't naturally associate the Netherlands with country songs.

The Maltese were a fairly nice looking family bunch. Did I mention I liked the Maltese?

But there were plenty of acts being a bit strange. Ukraine had a man in a hamster wheel, Iceland appeared to be emulating our own Wiggles, Romania had a circular piano and a miraculously disappearing woman, Montenegro roller skated, Poland tried to make household chores into a porno, the Greeks sang on a trampoline, the Russian girls had a see-saw and started off as Siamese twins joined by the hair, Italy was recreating the famous scene from 'Basic Instinct', Slovenia seemed to want to turn a flute into a magic wand, and the French... I don't know what the hell the French had, but it wasn't good.

The Australian commentators made a terribly apt joke about how much gym equipment would be appearing on stage.

And against all that, all anyone can talk about is a bearded lady? Really?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I'm surprised that anyone finds a drag act outlandish. At least in British culture, they are well established, for example, in pantomime. TV comedy has also used drag for a long time - think Dick Emery, Dame Edna (Australian), Monty Python, Kenny Everett, Matt Lucas, and I've no doubt forgotten some. What's the big deal?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm surprised that anyone finds a drag act outlandish. At least in British culture, they are well established, for example, in pantomime. TV comedy has also used drag for a long time - think Dick Emery, Dame Edna (Australian), Monty Python, Kenny Everett, Matt Lucas, and I've no doubt forgotten some. What's the big deal?

I imagine the beard has some impact, as drag acts don't generally have that.

But I think you've indirectly hit on the other point: that Conchita gave absolutely no sign of trying to be humorous. The drag wasn't being played for laughs.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Desert Daughter, honey, if you think that was tacky drag just google The Denver Cycle Sluts - but, honey, don't do it at work!

[codefix. —A]

[ 12. May 2014, 16:09: Message edited by: Ariston ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm surprised that anyone finds a drag act outlandish. At least in British culture, they are well established, for example, in pantomime. TV comedy has also used drag for a long time - think Dick Emery, Dame Edna (Australian), Monty Python, Kenny Everett, Matt Lucas, and I've no doubt forgotten some. What's the big deal?
I imagine the beard has some impact, as drag acts don't generally have that.

But I think you've indirectly hit on the other point: that Conchita gave absolutely no sign of trying to be humorous. The drag wasn't being played for laughs.

Well, in the days when I used to watch drag acts on the club circuit (sounding like some old roue now), there were always different styles. There would be completely glamorous blondes, singing Shirley Bassey songs. There would be guys dressing up as the Queen Mother, sailing across the stage, shouting 'fuck off' to the audience - crude, but quite funny.

Oh, Kenny Everett used to have a beard when he did Cupid Stunt, but this has been accused of misogyny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aPrOuPxLno

I'm just saying, that drag is so much a part of Brit culture, that Conchita hardly causes seismic shocks.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

polycistic ovarian syndrome Symptoms are developing masculine characteristics, in particular a beard.

There was a news story in the UK recently about a young women with pcos who had decided to live with her beard. She looked very like Conchita, only without so much make up.

In fact, I spent time wondering if Conchita was a male drag artist or a woman with pcos!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Wasn't to my taste, musically, but if it causes the bigots to out themselves so we can all point and laugh, then it suits me fine.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

I have to say that I didn't 'get' Fraulein Sausage's act. Drag artists I 'get'; beards I 'get'; the combo I didn't - I thought the point of a drag act was to try to look like a woman, but this guy looked more like the (intentionally) crap drags from Little Britain. Dunno, maybe I missed the point and it was likewise intentionally done like that in the name of art. Great performance though, and my gay friends loved it, so maybe I am missing the point [Confused]

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have to say that I didn't 'get' Fraulein Sausage's act. Drag artists I 'get'; beards I 'get'; the combo I didn't - I thought the point of a drag act was to try to look like a woman, but this guy looked more like the (intentionally) crap drags from Little Britain. Dunno, maybe I missed the point and it was likewise intentionally done like that in the name of art. Great performance though, and my gay friends loved it, so maybe I am missing the point

Matt: maybe this story will help your confusion? For some people, the need isn't to imitate a woman and 'hide' the fact that they are a man, but to express both.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have to say that I didn't 'get' Fraulein Sausage's act. Drag artists I 'get'; beards I 'get'; the combo I didn't - I thought the point of a drag act was to try to look like a woman, but this guy looked more like the (intentionally) crap drags from Little Britain. Dunno, maybe I missed the point and it was likewise intentionally done like that in the name of art. Great performance though, and my gay friends loved it, so maybe I am missing the point

I thought it was quite interesting. Drag is a fascinating form. Clearly, we are not supposed to think that Barry Humphreys actually looks like a woman, when he appears as Dame Edna. The Conchita persona takes this willing suspension of disbelief one step further, with the beard.

It also makes you think about what makes a performance authentic or inauthentic. So there's definitely an MA in there, if not a PhD.

Perhaps more important in context: cracking tune, well sung.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

To a degree, yes, thanks. But it still for me as someone doubtless not as far along the learning curve as others here begs more questions: if Conchita wants to look like a man, why does the individual self-refer as feminine eg: 'she'? Is this an alter-ego or artistic persona (the way we refer to Dame Edna as 'she')?

[cp with EM]

[ 12. May 2014, 10:15: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
To a degree, yes, thanks. But it still for me as someone doubtless not as far along the learning curve as others here begs more questions: if Conchita wants to look like a man, why does the individual self-refer as feminine eg: 'she'? Is this an alter-ego or artistic persona (the way we refer to Dame Edna as 'she')?

Well, she doesn't look 'like a man'. Not really. A beard is just one mannish element, when a lot of other elements are distinctly womanish.

There are elements of both genders in the presentation.

Our language, though, isn't terribly well-equipped to deal with this. One is faced with choosing to be labelled as either 'he' or 'she', unless one goes with 'it' which has some other unpleasant connotations. Those individuals who don't present, for whatever reason, as entirely 'he' or entirely 'she' end up having to indicate which one is the better fit.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
it's easy to guess what 'Wurst' might refer to.

It refers to the idiom "Das ist mir Wurst", literally "It's all sausage to me", meaning something along the lines of "I don't care" or "It's all the same to me".

Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
DD, you want him, badly.

I know honey, it's OK. It's the beard, my mum had one too.

Pyx_e

... and asked for your father's occupation, you'd say "Nun", right?

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Thanks, Orfeo, that begins to make sense

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

There is, of course, a sense in which Desert Daughter and the Russian politicians are right. This is "a sign of European decadence".

Of course, that's the whole Eurovision Song Contest, not just an individual act. We have a continent still recovering from a substantial economic down turn, nations struggling to maintain their economies while not bringing down an entire currency. We have Ukraine teetering on the brink of war. We have nations aspiring to enter the Union with human rights records that are appaling. And what do we do? We spend vast sums of money on the glitz and glamour of a contest for second-rate musicians.

Then again, some people take life far too seriously and should just let their hair down, dress up outrageously and have a good time.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

That is indeed the whole point of Eurovision: to be more than a tad outrageous, OTT, 'decadent', 'last days of the Roman Empire' with a hedonistic heady dose of fin de siècle France thrown in

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

This whole thread has made me chuckle. Dress codes are man-made. Who says what clothes people should wear if they're male or female?

What's interesting is the way people have come down on DD for being offended by it, as if offence is not allowed in some instances while in others it's compulsory, whether meant or not, as here.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Pyx_e

quote:
DD, you want him, badly.

I know honey, it's OK. It's the beard, my mum had one too.

Glad it wasn't just me thinking that... [Snigger]

DD is confused? Well, keep in mind that fully two-thirds of Christians belong to institutions where priests wear skirts, are called 'Father', most aren't allowed to marry, are not allowed to have children, yet the institution tells its non-priests they're likely to be punished if they use contraception and are promised everlasting damnation if they try to abort an unwanted child.

In any case, as Pyx_e could tell you, a female can have a beard: my friend Louisa (not her real name) has given up trying to cope with the beard that PCOS has given her and has what is known in the Navy as a full set: there is nothing monstrous about Lou.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't watch it anyway, but that's how it seems to me.

One can learn enough of what is going on there through the media, or even boards such as this one, without having to watch it. Yes, it's a big freak show but as I said, the entertainment industry is notoriously funny, so to speak.

What one does not learn is that I can't remember the last time that the winners of Eurovision weren't great performers, able to carry a live show, and that although there are onstage visual shenanigans (Conchita was both low key and classy by e.g. the standards of Lordi or even Abba) the winner can generally sing well as well as put on a great performance.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
This whole thread has made me chuckle. Dress codes are man-made. Who says what clothes people should wear if they're male or female?

What's interesting is the way people have come down on DD for being offended by it, as if offence is not allowed in some instances while in others it's compulsory, whether meant or not, as here.

I couldn't give a flying fuck if DD is offended - I'm more focused on her being an offensive bigot, to the extent I give a shit.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm surprised that anyone finds a drag act outlandish. At least in British culture, they are well established, for example, in pantomime. TV comedy has also used drag for a long time - think Dick Emery, Dame Edna (Australian), Monty Python, Kenny Everett, Matt Lucas, and I've no doubt forgotten some. What's the big deal?

Oh and some "black face" singers do sing well and are well established in certain cultures too. Doesn't make it right. Just sayin'.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
This whole thread has made me chuckle. Dress codes are man-made. Who says what clothes people should wear if they're male or female?

What's interesting is the way people have come down on DD for being offended by it, as if offence is not allowed in some instances while in others it's compulsory, whether meant or not, as here.

Hello, and welcome to Hell. Let me be your guide for all of 30 seconds. You appear to be seeking something called 'consistency'. You've come to the wrong place.

orfeo
Hellhost/tour guide

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm surprised that anyone finds a drag act outlandish. At least in British culture, they are well established, for example, in pantomime. TV comedy has also used drag for a long time - think Dick Emery, Dame Edna (Australian), Monty Python, Kenny Everett, Matt Lucas, and I've no doubt forgotten some. What's the big deal?
Oh and some "black face" singers do sing well and are well established in certain cultures too. Doesn't make it right. Just sayin'.

Well, yes, there have been critics of drag who have argued that it demeans women, or reveals misogyny. Presumably, you agree with this, since you are comparing it with blacking up?

I think drag could be expressed in a misogynistic way, but I don't think that drag is intrinsically anti-women. It seems to me there has always been a fascination in various cultures with the transgression of sex and gender boundaries; in addition, some gender theorists argue that it shows the artificiality of gender itself.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

So I'm guessing DD probably isn't a big fan of Ru Paul's Drag Race, then...

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I just remembered talking to cross-dressers who said that they did it, because they admired and envied women, not because they felt contempt for them. But no doubt, you could find drag queens who are contemptuous of women. There is also the complicated issues of subversion and satire of gender, plus just the sheer camp 'jouissance' of it - I remember when I used to go to drag clubs and pubs, the atmosphere was pure carnival, and many of the audience would also be in drag, and it was absolutely intoxicating fun. Ah well, I am an old git now, who dribbles into his cocoa. But well done, Conchita.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

It's the only decent advice my mum gave me. "Never kiss someone with a bushier moustache than you." God I miss you Mum.

And my Dad is a retired ballet teacher. He wasn't very good his teaching degree was only a 2 2.

[ 12. May 2014, 12:42: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

[Replying to Organ Builder, why are you all typing so fast? How Dare You interrupt a hellhost.]

^ Neither am I, particularly. In fact that's what rather annoys me about DD's dear little rant. I don't like drag very much. And I'm gay - somewhere out there is a stereotype that says I ought to love the whole over-the-top glitz and glamour of your average drag queen, but in fact it doesn't really do anything for me.

And I still think that Conchita Wurst is a very impressive singer who earned her victory. In spite of most of her style and genre not being to my personal taste, I can recognise there's a talented voice there.

Whereas all DD can see is a beard near a dress, and at that point the rest of her brain just shut down to the sound of klaxons.

[ 12. May 2014, 12:46: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I suppose a penis inside a dress has always fascinated some people, and horrified others. Transgression is the name of the game, and you mess around with the boundaries and shibboleths. The interesting thing about the beard is that it makes it explicit, whereas the penis is (normally) hidden in the dress. But I like you!

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

It might be somewhat interesting for the discussion that in most countries the points were decided on both by a jury of experts and by the televoting of the public, each being given the same weight. You can see the detailed results here. As it turns out, based on televoting alone Conchita would have won even more clearly, based on the expert juries alone he would still have won. In particular, based on televoting alone he would have received 8 points from Russia (instead of 5)...

I think orfeo's analysis about the appearance of Conchita Wurst was spot on. It is nonsensical to paint Tom Neuwirth's appearance as some kind of valid male dress option. Not because it is impossible that men have long hair or whatever, but because there was a clear intention there to mix conventional male and female appearances. (Incidentally, "Conchita" = "little seashell", a Spanish name, but "concha" is also slang for "pussy / cunt", hence also "little pussy / cunt"; "Wurst" = "sausage" in German.) In the same way this differs from a typical drag act, where the cross-dressing is humorous or at least part of the act. Here I would say it is more intended to be "normal" and part of a message. I think it is entirely fair to Tom Neuwirth's "Conchita Wurst" to consider the apparent male-female mix to be an essential and serious (as in "not intended to amuse") part of what the act is about, not some accidental fashion choice or an added bit of humour.

I have my own reservations about this act and the message it intends to send. Though having seen (on the net, not live) the performance, I would say that purely concerning the singing there is nothing wrong with assigning first price to that. (I have not seen the competitors this time, but I have seen previous Eurovision contests, and this certainly was a good singing performance by the standards there.) I have also seen snippets from interviews in German with Tom Neuwirth and while I disagree with some of his opinions, in those interviews at least there was nothing wrong with his spoken presentation and nothing particularly shrill or outlandish about his comments.

I see little reason to call this man a "monster" then. This means projecting systemic problems on a person, if nothing else. Conchita Wurst may be the Zeitgeist incarnate for a little while, but that does not mean that those who oppose the Zeitgeist on his issues should crucify him. However, we should be clear that there are different levels of "acceptance". Being tolerant of what happens behind closed doors in a private setting is different from what is allowed openly in public is different once more from what is being celebrated. I think it is fair to say that few people in fact consider this victory as purely relevant to the connoisseurs of pop music. This particular celebration has signal value for a "new normal" in wider society, whether that is cheered or hated.

That said, I think the main way in which Conchita Wurst serves the interests of Tom Neuwirth is by provoking an allergic and hateful reaction against which one can establish the moral high ground simply by remaining calm. I think the best way of dealing with Conchita Wurst is to simply agree that he is an accurate enough "personification" of what he stands for. Let everybody see what is to be seen there, without noisy interference from opinionated supporters or detractors, and make a choice based on that.

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

I think it Lord Flasheart who said "I like a woman with a beard - it gives you something to grab hold of".

On the night I liked the song and thought it was performed well although I actually voted for Iceland. I found the beard odd and spent some time wondering if it was a bloke in a dress or a woman with a beard.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I actually voted for Iceland.

Be ye forever banished to outer darkness.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

What's interesting is the way people have come down on DD for being offended by it, as if offence is not allowed in some instances while in others it's compulsory, whether meant or not, as here.

See IngoB's response on this thread. He does not care for cross-dressing for similar reasons to Desert Daughter, but his expression of it is much less offensive.
I would still argue with IngoB on this subject, but without the ire as with DD.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I actually voted for Iceland.
Be ye forever banished to outer darkness.

I didn't pick you as a KJV man.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I actually voted for Iceland.
Be ye forever banished to outer darkness.
I didn't pick you as a KJV man.

Genetic memory.

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But there were plenty of acts being a bit strange. Ukraine had a man in a hamster wheel, Iceland appeared to be emulating our own Wiggles, Romania had a circular piano and a miraculously disappearing woman, Montenegro roller skated, Poland tried to make household chores into a porno, the Greeks sang on a trampoline, the Russian girls had a see-saw and started off as Siamese twins joined by the hair, Italy was recreating the famous scene from 'Basic Instinct', Slovenia seemed to want to turn a flute into a magic wand, and the French... I don't know what the hell the French had, but it wasn't good.

I absolutely love Eurovision. There is no way any of the songs would ever make it anywhere near my music collection, but it's not about that. It's about entertainment, campness, silliness and togetherness. So for me, the funnier, sillier, more surreal the song the better. I watched it with three other people and for all of us France was our favourite. It was ridiculous, in true Eurovision style, but that's what made it entertaining. So screw all this France-bashing, their song lived up to the Eurovision spirit, just like Jedward and We are the winners of Eurovision before them. And I usually hate Jedward.

Aside from that, well done Conchita, a worthy winner. Desert Daughter, you're talking nonsense. I confess that I also liked the Dutch entry and was glad it did well (though it was a little bit too much like proper music for Eurovision). It might have had something to do with the female singer being enchantingly beautiful - I'm a sucker for a cow-girl.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Romania had a circular piano and a miraculously disappearing woman,

'Miraculously'? Hell, no! Shit-scary more like it. That unnerved me far more than Conchita's beard. And Mrs B and I had far more explaining to our 9 and 6 year-olds about the Polish woman with the big...er...pail (which in our opinion should NOT have been shown before the 9pm watershed) than we had about The Beard™...

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Now I've just had to dig up old notes on drag, from when I was involved in a sex and gender study group, and I found the doyenne of gender theorists, Judith Butler, who argued that gender itself is a performance, and that drag can highlight this, and of course, caricature it.

One example often used in such work, is Marilyn Monroe, who is sometimes termed a drag act. Maybe that is unkind though.

But the drag queen who imitates Marilyn may in fact be doing it in an act of adoration, not contempt; but then the person watching the DQ imitate Marilyn is involved in something quite complex.

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
'Miraculously'? Hell, no! Shit-scary more like it. That unnerved me far more than Conchita's beard.

Just before she 'disappeared' I'd said "she looks like she's on a green-screen", which kind of spoiled it for us.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Of course, if Desert Daughter finds the idea of men in skirts "monstrous" it will limit her travel, even in the UK. Scotland and parts of Ireland are out for a start because the men wear skirts (that IS what a kilt is, a SKIRT).

Going a little farther afield may not be plain sailing either: cross out the Greek parliament building (soldiers in skirts, SHORT ones too!); most Fijian males are happy in skirts, as are many in Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.

And what does DD think of women in the Andes wearing bowler hats?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
So screw all this France-bashing

While your little house was being all Francophile, 38 countries of Europe were engaging in the biggest France-bash in the entire history of Eurovision.
[Snigger]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
So for me, the funnier, sillier, more surreal the song the better. I watched it with three other people and for all of us France was our favourite. It was ridiculous, in true Eurovision style, but that's what made it entertaining.

I heartily agree. My two favourites were the French mustache song and the Swiss whistling thing [Big Grin]

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

Then let us stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our Finish and Swedish comrades (who each gave France a point), Marvin, against the tyrannical groupthink of Europe.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Of course, if Desert Daughter finds the idea of men in skirts "monstrous" it will limit her travel, even in the UK. Scotland and parts of Ireland are out for a start because the men wear skirts (that IS what a kilt is, a SKIRT).

Going a little farther afield may not be plain sailing either: cross out the Greek parliament building (soldiers in skirts, SHORT ones too!); most Fijian males are happy in skirts, as are many in Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.

And what does DD think of women in the Andes wearing bowler hats?

The other interesting thing about this is that women are not compelled to wear skirts or dresses. They can wear pants, boots, shirts, waistcoats, or whatever, except I suppose in conservative areas/groups.

By contrast, men are highly constrained as to dress; I suppose drag breaks through that constraint.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
So for me, the funnier, sillier, more surreal the song the better. I watched it with three other people and for all of us France was our favourite. It was ridiculous, in true Eurovision style, but that's what made it entertaining.
I heartily agree. My two favourites were the French mustache song and the Swiss whistling thing .

My favourite didn't even qualify. [Frown]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I must say I rather fancied him.

I have always liked long flowing hair in a man, and I really like five-o-clock shadow beards too.

Is there a gender for 'fancies tranvestites'?

If there is, I'm it.

[Smile]

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Desert Daughter, honey, if you think that was tacky drag just google The Denver Cycle Sluts - but, honey, don't do it at work!

While no doubt wonderful performers for worthy causes, they need to be renamed. I got my hopes up for nothing.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Is there a gender for 'fancies tranvestites'?

Boogie Knights?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
And my Dad is a retired ballet teacher. He wasn't very good his teaching degree was only a 2 2.

Hullo. What is wrong with a Tutu degree?

That's what I got. Because I had fun at uni and stopped working too hard.

Regarded as a 'good honours degree' it was worth £2k per annum on top of my basic salary for 40 years and beyond into my teachers' pension.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

2ii is worth fuck all these days. Most graduate recruiters won't look at anything less than a 2i IME.

No-one gets a third any more, as long as they actually do all the coursework and sit the finals.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
2ii is worth fuck all these days. Most graduate recruiters won't look at anything less than a 2i IME.

No-one gets a third any more, as long as they actually do all the coursework and sit the finals.

You'd be surprised. One of my friends from uni managed to get a pass degree. You can't just waffle your way to honours in pure maths. I have a 2:2 but it's a masters (and in 2 well regarded subjects) so I do fine with it.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
And my Dad is a retired ballet teacher. He wasn't very good his teaching degree was only a 2 2.
Hullo. What is wrong with a Tutu degree?

That's what I got. Because I had fun at uni and stopped working too hard.

That explains a lot. Work a bit harder and maybe you'll have something to say here worth reading. Or, at the very least get a joke ... make a change from being a joke.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
We have a beard and a male voice counterpoised with a floor-length gown, long hair, painted nails, ear rings, eye makeup.
The majority of male clergy in the main Christian denominations wear floor length gowns, often far more elaborate than this performer's.

And, Beards!! We can't forget the Beards!

What is Forgiveness Vespers without an abundance of pious Beard-Kissing?!

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Oh, I get it now! DD doesn't have a problem with drag, it is the venue that was the issue. Conchita Wurst degraded the holy act of drag by performing it outside of a religious ceremony.

[ 13. May 2014, 00:07: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
There is a difference between art (and the quirks of an artist) and wallowing in tasteless vulgarity.

And before anyone starts howling, this is not some homophobic rant. It is simply a deploration of bad taste and decadence.

Surely it can't simultaneously be both "tasteless" and "bad taste" can it?

"taste" is, I suggest, neither good nor bad - simply mine or yours; perhaps socially acceptable/unacceptable; quite often (otherwise unjustifiably) expensive and always, but always, a means of selling others the image of oneself that one thinks will get the desired result.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

Menopausal women the world over celebrate her ability to make a beard look so damn good on a woman.

I thought she looked like an Assyrian or Babylonian frieze come to life.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Yes! Especially with the gold.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

She's clearly spent too much time at the Pergamonmuseum.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

Sorry for the double post but how is this any different from David Bowie or the New York Dolls or any other awesome androgynous performers? It's not like this is new.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
We have a beard and a male voice counterpoised with a floor-length gown, long hair, painted nails, ear rings, eye makeup.
The majority of male clergy in the main Christian denominations wear floor length gowns, often far more elaborate than this performer's.
And, Beards!! We can't forget the Beards!

What is Forgiveness Vespers without an abundance of pious Beard-Kissing?!

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Sorry for the double post but how is this any different from David Bowie or the New York Dolls or any other awesome androgynous performers? It's not like this is new.

I remember the first time Boy George appeared on Top of the Pops. There was much squinting at the television.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Well, digital broadcasting should have fixed that for you now.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I actually voted for Iceland.
Be ye forever banished to outer darkness.
I didn't pick you as a KJV man.
Genetic memory.

You made me Google. Bastard.

You are redeemed however. I love Epigenetics.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

For the sake of accuracy:

Hermaphrodism refers to biological sex, and does not actually exist in humans. It describes other animals such as snails that can be either biologically male or female, and can usually change their sex (sex, not gender - the two are different).

Humans who have chromosones other than XX or XY, or who display the secondary sex characteristics of another sex, are intersex not hermaphrodites - before anyone accuses this of being 'PC', intersex is the official medical term used since hermaphrodite is just biologically inaccurate.

Conchita Wurst (the character) is gender-neutral but uses female pronouns - not a female character.

Dana International is not a drag act but is a transgender woman. 'Transsexual' is an outdated term, since transgender is about gender and not sex. Being transgender is also not reliant on gender reassignment surgery status, as not all trans people are able to access this or even want it, so referring to people as 'pre-op' or 'post-op' is unnecessary.

None of this is criticism, just information.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... I remember the first time Boy George appeared on Top of the Pops. There was much squinting at the television.

Squinting at the television?? I thought "what an unusual looking girl" until someone actually told me he was a bloke. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
2ii is worth fuck all these days. Most graduate recruiters won't look at anything less than a 2i IME.

No-one gets a third any more, as long as they actually do all the coursework and sit the finals.

'These days', yet.

In the 1970s, things were different.

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Sorry for the double post but how is this any different from David Bowie or the New York Dolls or any other awesome androgynous performers? It's not like this is new.
I remember the first time Boy George appeared on Top of the Pops. There was much squinting at the television.

I thought it made you go blind.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Sorry for the double post but how is this any different from David Bowie or the New York Dolls or any other awesome androgynous performers? It's not like this is new.
I remember the first time Boy George appeared on Top of the Pops. There was much squinting at the television.
I thought it made you go blind.

I wasn't doing that. Especially with my parents in the room.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I must say I rather fancied him.

I have always liked long flowing hair in a man, and I really like five-o-clock shadow beards too.

Is there a gender for 'fancies tranvestites'?

If there is, I'm it.

Fancying someone doesn't change your gender. Do you mean sexual orientation? Given that cross-dressers (transvestite is a v outdated term) are more often than not straight men, it would just make you a straight woman - a man in a dress is still a man.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Doesn't transvestite and crossdresser mean the same thing? If you can tell us a significant difference between the two (except that one is from Latin and the other English), pray tell us.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst. 'Person who cross-dresses' is the most polite term - but the best option is just to ask someone what they prefer. Conchita is not a person who cross-dresses anyway because gender performance is different to wearing the clothes of a different gender day-to-day.

Just because something means the same as another term doesn't mean you should use it - darkie means the same as black person, still doesn't mean you should use the former.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst. 'Person who cross-dresses' is the most polite term - but the best option is just to ask someone what they prefer. Conchita is not a person who cross-dresses anyway because gender performance is different to wearing the clothes of a different gender day-to-day.

Just because something means the same as another term doesn't mean you should use it - darkie means the same as black person, still doesn't mean you should use the former.

Um, not quite. Whilst transvestite may have become pejorative, darkie has always been.
Another key difference is some people happily call themselves transvestites still. Fairly sure you will not find this to be the case with darkie.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst.

Someone should tell Eddie Izzard, then, yes?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst.

By whom is it so considered please? It is a standard term here AFAIK.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
2ii is worth fuck all these days. Most graduate recruiters won't look at anything less than a 2i IME.

No-one gets a third any more, as long as they actually do all the coursework and sit the finals.
'These days', yet.

In the 1970s, things were different.

So that explains why people my age can't get real jobs while deadwood hired in the '70's and 80's with half our qualifications get paid to sit on their thumbs all day playing on facebook and eBay.

No, I don't hate my boss. Why do you ask?

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.

I find it really confusing. I would never set out to use a racist term, but when my sister-in-law was visiting from America I inadvertently used a term (that I had heard on National Radio here, which is government funded so usually a reliale source) which she thought was racist so she hit the roof, after that I just shut up. The thing is that I don't read a lot of American books, watch little TV and seldom go to movies so I am just not up to date with what is acceptable in that area.

I think there are probably other people like me who don't realise they may be using an offensive term. [Hot and Hormonal]

.

Huia

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

So I cant describe my first date with a cross dresser, in a Ford Transit van, listening to Culture Club on a transistor radios as : Bumping uglies with a trannie, in a trannie in time to the trannie tunes on the trannie. Damn, oh for simpler times.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
So I cant describe my first date with a cross dresser, in a Ford Transit van, listening to Culture Club on a transistor radios as : Bumping uglies with a trannie, in a trannie in time to the trannie tunes on the trannie. Damn, oh for simpler times.

Were you going to Bangor?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Or maybe Balls Cross?

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst.
Someone should tell Eddie Izzard, then, yes?

And Frank'n'Furter.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.

I'd have thought it would be the other way round.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
So I cant describe my first date with a cross dresser, in a Ford Transit van, listening to Culture Club on a transistor radios as : Bumping uglies with a trannie, in a trannie in time to the trannie tunes on the trannie. Damn, oh for simpler times.
Were you going to Bangor?

More likely Tranmere.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Midweek on Radio 4 this morning had Libby Purves describe cabaret artist Le Gateau Chocolat as a 'cross-dresser'

{You're welcome for the codefix. Just sayin'.
—Ariston, Hellhost}

[ 14. May 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: Ariston ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Midweek on Radio 4 this morning had Libby Purves describe cabaret artist Le Gateau Chocolat as a 'cross-dresser'

i) that was Libby Purves
ii) that was BBC Radio 4

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.

"Transvestite" often implies "Gets sexual kicks from it". This is because back in the DSM-III days, the disorder that's now known as Transvestic Fetishism was then referred to as Transvestism, and links the act of a man wearing women's clothes with sexual perversion. Since there are many many other reasons to cross-dress, some people object to the baggage the word transvestite carries.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.
I find it really confusing. I would never set out to use a racist term, but when my sister-in-law was visiting from America I inadvertently used a term (that I had heard on National Radio here, which is government funded so usually a reliale source) which she thought was racist so she hit the roof, after that I just shut up. The thing is that I don't read a lot of American books, watch little TV and seldom go to movies so I am just not up to date with what is acceptable in that area.

I think there are probably other people like me who don't realise they may be using an offensive term. .

Huia

When I was living in Ireland I used the word 'gyp' which is common slang in North America. The Irish were appalled. I apologized. I wasn't aware of what a fraught subject it was or that it was considered a pejorative.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
some people object to the baggage the word transvestite carries.

And some people do not, so I think Kelly's point is valid in that usage is situational. Like the word Black in America. in the UK, it is a perfectly acceptable word, in America it is variable. Including the very weird use of African-American applied to non-Americans.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Transvestite was coined to refer to dressing in the clothing of another gender as a fetish - cross-dresser was coined in the 70s to indicate non-fetish wearing of clothing of another gender. From people who cross-dress that I know, cross-dressing is the preferred term and is the politest term to use - if some people prefer transvestite then they are obviously entitled to do so (just like some transgender people use 'transsexual') but it's up to them to say so, not for others to guess. Cross-dressing should be the default term, just like transgender is.

Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Jade,
You tend to the pendantic for one community, please then do so for others. They are not equivilant.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Jade, you're stating things as facts that just plain aren't universal. My college friend who was trans called herself a trannie, she preferred that term to others. In fact, I think both my college trans friends/acquaintances used the term about themselves and encouraged others to do so, though I'm more sure about the one who told me to use it. It's not a word to use if you don't know that it would be preferred, but hatred of it is definitely not across the board.

You say you'd like people not to guess, so don't make broad based statements about what people should do when you're just guessing based on those you know, please.

[ 14. May 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Round these parts, 'cross-dresser' tends to be the pejorative, with 'transvestite' the more correct term. 'Tranny' can be pejorative or affectionate depending on context!

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Jade - there are multiple understandings of the word "fetish" - which one did you have in mind?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Jade - there are multiple understandings of the word "fetish" - which one did you have in mind?

Slightly 'fet'?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Jade, you're stating things as facts that just plain aren't universal.

What, Jade Constable acting as if her own views on what's acceptable and what isn't are equivalent to Holy Writ?

I'd be shocked if it wasn't for the fact that it happens all the fucking time. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Hang on a moment. Tunnel-vision is a common side effect of being involved in activism. I know this to my own detriment.
I believe her heart is in the right place, even if her view is slightly more constricted than she is aware.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

Historically, Jade is correct. Transvestism was associated with those who dress in clothing of the opposite gender for sexual gratification or arousal. Cross-dressing as a term emerged to differentiate the serialization of it. (see Wikipedia).
Drag Queen, at least as I've always used it and heard it used, is more a performance piece. If you cross dress to perform, you're a drag queen. If you're a man who wears panties as a turn-on, you're a transvestite. If you dress as a member of the opposite gender for non-sexual, non-performance, you're a cross dresser.
Now, how that all relates to transgenderism... I have no clue.

In any case, DD needs to make an acquaintance with a rusty farm implement post haste.

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.

Except in Australia where it isn't

[ 14. May 2014, 17:56: Message edited by: ecumaniac ]

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.

Ok, so now I'm confused.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

Can someone remind me again why 'trans' has an asterisk after it here? (It's not because there's a footnote, I know that much.)

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.
Except in Australia where it isn't

Well, that's just the Aussies being contrary [Big Grin]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Not their fault. Hanging upside down does things to you.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Can someone remind me again why 'trans' has an asterisk after it here? (It's not because there's a footnote, I know that much.)

I assume the asterisk is acting as a wild card, so trans* can be expanded to transvestite, transgendered, transatlantic etc. etc.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
transatlantic

No need for vulgarity, JoannaP.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Round these parts, 'cross-dresser' tends to be the pejorative, with 'transvestite' the more correct term. 'Tranny' can be pejorative or affectionate depending on context!

Yep, yep, yep.

I think we need to also check in to note if we are folk who live in or by a huge, slamming gayopolis, because at least in San Francisco there is the whole issue of the gay community aggressively re-claiming every derogatory phrase thrown at them as a badge of honor. That's why I had to be schooled about being careful with phrases like "queer nation", because I had only heard them uttered with pride.

Nowadays I try whenever possible to keep my mouth shut until someone conversationally directs me to the right word. Keeping mouth shut can work wonders in situations like this.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Keeping mouth shut can work wonders in situations like this.

But ever so boring.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Who said I was put on this earth to be a walking vaudeville act?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Who said I was put on this earth to be a walking vaudeville act?

It's a fine ambition actually. A few of us are thinking of setting up as VaudeInc, or some name like that, so if you are interested we will put you on our books. No qualifications needed really, just fun, fun, fun, willingness to get it wrong, mostly we wear dresses, beards optional, large Charlie Chaplin boots are good, and so on. I know you'd love it.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Shit I manage comedy enough unintentionally without going to all that trouble. [Big Grin]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Come on, babes; I'll wear the dress, you get the beard, let's fuck over these bigots who find a bloke in a dress disgusting or whatever. We are Decadent Morons, and proud.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

New sig or what! Fuck the bigots! Dresses are for everyone!

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

[Tear]

Finally, a parade for me...

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

And if you're a man who wears panties, because all of his are in the wash, you're just being bleeding practical.

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not their fault. Hanging upside down does things to you.

Indeed.

But seriously.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

These guys sell manly skirts.

[ 14. May 2014, 23:53: Message edited by: art dunce ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
These guys sell manly skirts.

But if you wear one, it will mark you as an out of fashion hipster faster than wearing plaid pants.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

No, that would be me, my soul patch/mustache combo, long, flowing locks, borrowed fixie, and pink, fluffy tutu.

Yes, there are pictures. Yes, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Yes, you probably want me to just leave it at that.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Hell with the perfectly reasonable explanation, we want to see the pictures!

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
These guys sell manly skirts.

Excellent for improving the sperm count [Smile]

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

Tranny, cross-dresser, transvestite, trans* - it's all too confusing.

Can't we just all be people and to hell with labels?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
These guys sell manly skirts.
Excellent for improving the sperm count

I also recommend the ice-spurred special for that; don't skimp on the ice though.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Tranny, cross-dresser, transvestite, trans* - it's all too confusing.

Can't we just all be people and to hell with labels?

But, if we did away with the labels how would Desert Daughter know who to find offensive? She clearly needs to put people into little boxes and gets confused when someone doesn't fit her scheme.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

We all put labels on everyone. For the most part they're useful, it's part of our nature to do so even. The arguments usually start when we decide how many labels and their definitions.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

It's just that labels about gender seem to arouse strong feelings in some people. In one sense, I can see why, since such categories as male/female and masculine/feminine are part of our social structure. On the other hand, it does seem a massive over-reaction to a bloke in a dress. A woman in a pair of jeans and a shirt doesn't seem to cause the same accusations of depravity, except maybe in very conservative circles.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, if we did away with the labels how would Desert Daughter know who to find offensive?

..."whom to find offensive", dear.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, if we did away with the labels how would Desert Daughter know who to find offensive?
..."whom to find offensive", dear.

Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well. Listen, DD, "whom" is virtually obsolete in unaffected UK spoken English, m'kay?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Er, no it isn't.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I don't really care. It's more important to me that I learn enough Japanese to communicate than satisfying the vagaries of English grammar, as long as I've communicated what I wanted to say.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Er, no it isn't.

Yes it is. You might use it, but the vast majority of people do not.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Listen, DD, "whom" is virtually obsolete in unaffected UK spoken English, m'kay?

That may or may not be true, but I thought SoF users communicated via the written, not the spoken, word? Or are there hidden features to this website that I haven't yet unlocked?

[ 15. May 2014, 09:32: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I think Karl is right. To say 'whom did you meet last night?', strikes me as very conservative today; most people would say 'who'.

Although in parts of the US, 'whom' is still quite common, I think.

[ 15. May 2014, 09:34: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Listen, DD, "whom" is virtually obsolete in unaffected UK spoken English, m'kay?
That may or may not be true, but I thought SoF users communicated via the written, not the spoken, word? Or are there hidden features to this website that I haven't yet unlocked?

It's a matter of register, Anglican't. As Quetz says, "whom" is pretty formal. It's the sort of thing you might use in a formal essay or Times column; It seems a bit stilted to me in informal communication like a bulletin board. Most people would have to make a conscious effort to use it.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well.

Don't call me a Nazi. Ever. [Mad]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I was just having a look around various writers, and 'whom' seems to be dying out in the US as well, where I thought it had hung on; whereas in the UK, it is almost gone.

Just think of:

Who are you going to invite to the party?
Whom are you going to invite to the party?

The second one to me is so odd, that it would raise eye-brows.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well.
Don't call me a Nazi. Ever.

I didn't. I called you a grammar Nazi. You can play the faux outrage game if you like but no-one believes you.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well.
Don't call me a Nazi. Ever.
I didn't. I called you a grammar Nazi. You can play the faux outrage game if you like but no-one believes you.

He didn't. He called you a grammar Nazi, which is a different thing altogether and which it appears you are.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Is it possible to be a semi literate grammar Nazi? To be a stickler for the correct use of the apostrophe and who/whom (according to the rules of grammar at one moment in time, usually not the present) yet still unable to read for comprehension?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I don't really care. It's more important to me that I learn enough Japanese to communicate than satisfying the vagaries of English grammar, as long as I've communicated what I wanted to say.

Ahem. '...than to satisfy the vagaries...'

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Transvestite/tranny/cross-dresser, who/whom and now whether one can use the term "grammar Nazi". What the Hell is Hell coming to?

I presume everyone who is even remotely interested can understand the posts on this dog of a thread, even if they don't like the words used?

Now move along, there's nothing to see.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well.
Don't call me a Nazi. Ever.

So it's ok for you to be monstrously offensive but you can't accept a wee jibe at yourself. That's fair. Makes you look like a completely hypocritical fucknugget whose head is firmly inserted into the arsehole of a dead badger. If that's the look you're going for, well done.

Personally I preferred the look of the winner of Eurovision. At least she is what she is instead of being a pathetic piece of shite that requires the whole shoe to be squashed into landfill instead of being wiped clean.

You disgust me. Who are you to define what normal is? Who gave you that right? It is only a very small step from deciding someone isn't normal to deciding someone should be harassed to deciding someone should be banned and further down the road to, oh you know what, the sort of behaviour that Nazism displayed. They took against so called decadence too.

So who is allowed to perform in public without upsetting you, pathetic little flower? Aren't people in wheelchairs disgusting? They shouldn't be on telly. The mentally ill, they're unnatural. Gay people with their decadent lifestyles.

Wind your neck in, listen to yourself and then fuck the fuck off.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Tranny, cross-dresser, transvestite, trans* - it's all too confusing.

Can't we just all be people and to hell with labels?

Or to take Jade's perspective, for whom would we know to stand up were we not to apply a label - and then a damning label for all those who did toe the line.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Surely DD was trying to show some humour with the "don't call me a Nazi" thing. I don't assume intelligent thinking behind all posts here, but she can't be that stupid.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Surely DD was trying to show some humour with the "don't call me a Nazi" thing. I don't assume intelligent thinking behind all posts here, but she can't be that stupid.

DD is far from stupid but has she any form for humour? See profile and posts passim

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Surely DD was trying to show some humour with the "don't call me a Nazi" thing. I don't assume intelligent thinking behind all posts here, but she can't be that stupid.

Not with a [Mad]

after it, surely?

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Surely DD was trying to show some humour with the "don't call me a Nazi" thing. I don't assume intelligent thinking behind all posts here, but she can't be that stupid.

Past postings say she can be. And is, bless her heart.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Surely DD was trying to show some humour with the "don't call me a Nazi" thing. I don't assume intelligent thinking behind all posts here, but she can't be that stupid.
Not with a after it, surely?

It was that that made me think that she was taking the piss. To be fair, she's one of the posters who I scroll past (ever since her views on depression were made known) so I didn't notice her lack of humour.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well.
Don't call me a Nazi. Ever.

Only a Nazi would say that.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

You've done too much CPE Pyx_e

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Hell with the perfectly reasonable explanation, we want to see the pictures!

Any image that would send DD into an apoplectic fit of offense serves the greater good, IMO. And, by the way...

(preeens a little)

I have seen the pictures.*

SCORCHING.HOT.

You can be jealous, Ruth, that's ok; I will still love you.

*Assuming they are the pictures I think they are.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[Oh shit she's a grammar nazi as well.
Don't call me a Nazi. Ever.

Nazi!

Nazi nazi nazi! Goose-steppin' xenophobic NAZI!

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
*Assuming they are the pictures I think they are.

Oh they are. There's also the pics of me wearing my thengirlfriend's miniskirt for the sake of free beer. Oh, and the ones of me in a dress and blonde wig in high school. Is it my fault that I like to screw with people's heads every once in a while and have absolutely no respect whatsoever for gender norms?

Yes, I've occasionally been known to cross-dress for a lark. I'm a heterosexual, cisgendered male who likes to fuck with people's heads and expectations. Put on a tutu, pink wig and hair bow for a bike race? Why of course they make me faster! Wear a miniskirt to the pub? The TGF enjoyed watching people check me out, then do a double take. Does this make me a transwoman? No. A drag queen? Not that either. An abomination against nature and a sign of the decline and fall of Western civ? As if.

If civilization can't take me, or anyone else, thinking I have a sense of humor and flipping the bird to gender norms, then it deserves to fall. A bit of genderfuckery does not a falling sky make.

And the same goes for everyone else too. At least doubly so for those who are transitioning or transitioned. If art and authenticity are the costs of civilization, then fuck it. Time to be free, with nothing to lose but our chains.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

[Overused]

Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :

Nice. Thank you Ariston.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

I'm going to assume you all are thanking me for not linking to the pictures.

For which, you are extremely welcome.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
An abomination against nature and a sign of the decline and fall of Western civ? As if.

It is the white clown shoes after Labour Day, not the wig and tutu.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Oh they are. There's also the pics of me wearing my thengirlfriend's miniskirt for the sake of free beer.

Wait a minute...crossdressers get free beer?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I did a training course, on which now and again we did a drag evening. I have to report that after the initial giggles, it often became very sombre, as people got into all kinds of weird stuff, by pretending to be the opposite sex. I remember being pursued by a vengeful 'man' screaming at me, you twat, mum, why didn't you ever look at me, and I screamed back, but I did, I did, you were just scowling out the window all the time. Something like that, so I don't recommend it. But for most people, it was surprisingly easy to get into character, and for some this was scary.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

I was once leading a seminar where the participants organised a party, and they decided that it was to a cross-dressing party. I ended up in a short skirt with mascara on alone in my room with a Russian guy who was about to be volunteer in a former concentration camp, who was worried about it. It was somewhat bizarre to have him opening up to me (usually Russian males in my seminars are friendly while at the same time treat me like a teacher) in such a relatively tender setting. It's not often when I manage to give a "tell me your concerns" face.

I ended up losing my key to my bedroom, seeing as I had no pocket to put them in. Strangely enough, a girl chose that evening to come on to me; I believe it was the short skirt that set her off (that and the alcohol).

Perhaps the former story shows that a short skirt and mascara could be a useful prop in my work.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Oh they are. There's also the pics of me wearing my thengirlfriend's miniskirt for the sake of free beer.
Wait a minute...crossdressers get free beer?

It's not any miniskirt. Hers was one of those "wear me and win free beer!" skirts.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Don't call me a Nazi. Ever.

Perhaps if you stopped referring to other people as subhuman "monstrosit[ies]" and complaining about decadent (degenerate?) art, fewer people would draw the comparison.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Oh they are. There's also the pics of me wearing my thengirlfriend's miniskirt for the sake of free beer.
Wait a minute...crossdressers get free beer?
It's not any miniskirt. Hers was one of those "wear me and win free beer!" skirts.

They do when their girlfriends are buying on the condition they wear skirts in public.

There's more to the story—I don't think she much cared for the skirt, hated that it showed her legs, didn't think I should either, thought this would get me to dislike it and its kin—but it kinda backfired.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

So, thanks to Jane R in another thread, I'm now aware of this.

That's right folks. Far from being monstrous abominations, it turns out that bearded women can be saints. VENERATED.

Desert Daughter, your righteous moral indignation is looking more like unholy bigotry all the time.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

They can also be used as early warning systems according to Herodotus. In Book One of his "Histories" he says that the people of Pedasus were warned of impending disaster by the Priestess of Athene growing a beard: "a thing which actually happened on three occasions." (translation by Aubrey de Selincourt, p. 84 of the 1954 edition which unfortunately doesn't have line references). This was inexplicably omitted from the 2007 film 300, so not many people know about it. [Two face]

[ 20. May 2014, 10:45: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So, thanks to Jane R in another thread, I'm now aware of this.

That's right folks. Far from being monstrous abominations, it turns out that bearded women can be saints. VENERATED.

Also, note the fiddler. Clearly indicating divine approval of bearded women in the music industry.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So, thanks to Jane R in another thread, I'm now aware of this.

That's right folks. Far from being monstrous abominations, it turns out that bearded women can be saints. VENERATED.

Well, imaginary bearded women anyway.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Why am I thinking about the stoning scene from The Life of Brian?

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Sorry for the double post - I'm not really but you have to say these things to fit in don't you - but I have to ask (and bear in mind I haven't read all of this tiresome thread), why would anyone watch the Eurovision song contest anyway?

Surely somebody dragging up a bit is the only way to liven up the limp, torpid drudgery?

If you want to listen to decent music then the ESC is the last place to look! Try putting a music DVD on. I suggest Stevie-Ray Vaughan Live at the El Mocombo (You Tube it to see what I mean). Or have a listen to a CD of some SS Drinking Songs. Now Hitler really knew how to put on a pan European show!

DD, if you're going to take on the mantle of ships token Nazi, then you need to embrace it; to wallow in it; to breathe it! You need to sup deeply at the wellspring... a bit of whinging about a bloke in a dress or punctuation won't get you there. It might get you published in the Daily Mail, but certainly not invited to the Combat 18 Summer Ball (Elephant & Castle Community Centre, 19th June, tickets £10 on the door, BYOB, buffet & raffle).

But I should be around for a bit now hopefully so you can watch me to see how it should be done. There will be a test later.

If you feel I'm taking the piss, I am, but mainly for watching the Eurovision song contest and not for being a Nazi.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

deano, I'm sorry to dampen your excitement at having found a soulmate, but DD was only accused of being a grammar Nazi. So, no more than a corporal in the Gerund army.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Damn, I though I was going to get an apprentice to train up.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Well Putin has announced his own Eurasian version of the Eurovision contest with wholesome family fare. I hope Desert Daughter gets to watch a lot of it.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

A contest controlled by one country. Yeah, that's going to be a perfect replacement...

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Like the USA's 'World Series', eh?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like the USA's 'World Series', eh?

It's not the USA's World Series, it's MLB's World Series. Shove your pond-war synecdoche up your nether hyperbole.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like the USA's 'World Series', eh?
It's not the USA's World Series, it's MLB's World Series. Shove your pond-war synecdoche up your nether hyperbole.

And there's a Canadian team. Sort of.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Wasn't it named for a newspaper originally? Wikipedia isn't helpful about that.

It must be admitted that it is odd that a sport championship for a single nation (albeit with one team from that most American of Canadian cities) is labelled "world". Hence the question.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Wasn't it named for a newspaper originally? Wikipedia isn't helpful about that.

I thought that also. It was either the World Series or the World Almanac that was originally sponsored by The New York World. I couldn't find more information.

Moo

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Whatever. I look forward to seeing Russo-vision, where men are real men, women are real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri are real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Wasn't it named for a newspaper originally? Wikipedia isn't helpful about that.

It must be admitted that it is odd that a sport championship for a single nation (albeit with one team from that most American of Canadian cities) is labelled "world". Hence the question.

*sigh* I can't believe I'm feeding this tangent, but:
1. There used to be the Montreal Expos. They even won a series once, if memory serves me correctly. Now they've moved to DC, where they may never win a series because no DC sports team can. It's like a law of nature or something.
2. Technically, the only major pro baseball teams are in America's National League and Japan's Central League. I don't know what they play in the American League, or anywhere else that doesn't make pitchers step up to the plate and do their part, but it isn't baseball.
3. Isn't there a baseball thread in the Circus or something? It's not my demesne anymore, so I don't know. Would somebody mind checking for me? Ta muchly.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I don't know what they play in the American League, or anywhere else that doesn't make pitchers step up to the plate and do their part, but it isn't baseball.

Thankfully for National League assholes, this is the only rule that ever changed in the history of baseball.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I don't know what they play in the American League, or anywhere else that doesn't make pitchers step up to the plate and do their part, but it isn't baseball.

Thankfully for National League assholes, this is the only rule that ever changed in the history of baseball.

Yes, there really is a baseball thread. It's in the Circus although any discussion of the place of the DH* will have to be in Hell. Just not on this thread; a Pond War is one thing, another dividing the USA could be a lot nastier, especially over such a crucial issue.

*Designated Hitter, not Dead Horse. Although it probably is a Dead Horse issue.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like the USA's 'World Series', eh?
It's not the USA's World Series, it's MLB's World Series. Shove your pond-war synecdoche up your nether hyperbole.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
A Pond War is one thing, another dividing the USA could be a lot nastier, especially over such a crucial issue.

Speaking of which, did you know that my home state has the only barbecue worth the name in the whole entire country, and therefore the world?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

You are from Jamaica?

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

No, she went of her own accord.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Alaska myself

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Get out. The lot of you.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

Wanders out, singing “What did Delaware boy, what did Delaware…..”

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Are you lot getting as bored with this thread as your hosts are? Be warned, we're watching.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
sigh* I can't believe I'm feeding this tangent, but:
1. There used to be the Montreal Expos. They even won a series once, if memory serves me correctly. Now they've moved to DC, where they may never win a series because no DC sports team can. It's like a law of nature or something.

I think it's a divine law rather than a natural one. [Devil]

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