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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sex advice from Pat Robertson
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) False outrage. Women have been making that suggestion, to other women, for YEARS. I've heard it lots of times and my sexual activities don't even involve any women.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Does washing up sex toys count?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gareth
Shipmate
# 2494
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Posted
As my wife and I have just agreed - neither of us do any housework.
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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke
Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think the problem is that Pat appears to be saying women OWE IT TO MEN to give them sex if they will just do a little vacuuming. Entitlement. Kinda creepy that this should come out now, given what happened in Santa Barbara.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think the problem is that Pat appears to be saying women OWE IT TO MEN to give them sex if they will just do a little vacuuming. Entitlement. Kinda creepy that this should come out now, given what happened in Santa Barbara.
Creepy is one word. There are others.
I do the vast majority of the housework, because I'm here most of the day. That's fine. If Mrs Tor does the washing up, I don't owe her a good seeing to. Though if she does it early enough in the evening, it might be a sign that she's amenable.
#TMI
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Washing up is foreplay, because it shows you actually care about the other person.
Actually, it shows I care about the glassware. We have a dishwasher for the other stuff.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Washing up is foreplay, because it shows you actually care about the other person.
Actually, it shows I care about the glassware. We have a dishwasher for the other stuff.
Oh, I'm sure there's no end to your automatic appliances... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Washing up is foreplay, because it shows you actually care about the other person.
Also, more housework done = more horizontal surfaces.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think the problem is that Pat appears to be saying women OWE IT TO MEN to give them sex if they will just do a little vacuuming. Entitlement. Kinda creepy that this should come out now, given what happened in Santa Barbara.
Precisely. It's the whole misogynistic theology leading to rape culture (see Purg thread) yet again. No-one has an 'entitlement to sex'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Anyone want me to do their dishes for them? Happy to negotiate my rates.
Pat Robertson says reward your spouse with sex for doing housework.
Good to hear it from an expert, seeing as how there are probably millions of women who fantasize about being tied to a bed and ravished by Pat Robertson. Mmm hmm.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more? Whether his thinking framework objectively makes sense, or whether you can find a way to tweak his behaviour just enough to get a desirable result?
(Honestly, it's like every thread I'm involved in right now lends itself to the same kinds of points...)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
Not in my house.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
(eta - I see it as a service to the community. At least there'll be two kids who, when unleashed on the world, will know how to cook, clean, wash their own clothes, change a bed and buy a pint of milk, without mummy or daddy holding their hand.)
[ 28. May 2014, 15:04: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Good to hear it from an expert, seeing as how there are probably millions of women who fantasize about being tied to a bed and ravished by Pat Robertson. Mmm hmm.
And some men, too.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
Not in my house.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
Okay, so what's the consequence if they don't help? Is there any? Have they always just accepted that helping out is normal behaviour?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more?
If my husband had somehow been reduced to toddler maturity and wouldn't participate in our household because he was part of the household, wanted a clean house, and wanted to keep the rest of us happy, the cleanliness of the house would be far and away not our worst problem!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
Not in my house.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
Okay, so what's the consequence if they don't help? Is there any? Have they always just accepted that helping out is normal behaviour?
I suppose the consequence is a stand-up fight with their lovely father, who'll point out all the things he does without being reminded.
The usual statement is "I expect you to have done your chores by the time it gets to dinner time." They get done. Perhaps they shame easily, or perhaps I just have great kids...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
The treats, or the kids?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more?
If my husband had somehow been reduced to toddler maturity and wouldn't participate in our household because he was part of the household, wanted a clean house, and wanted to keep the rest of us happy, the cleanliness of the house would be far and away not our worst problem!
I agree.
But that's your household. In other households, there are men entrenched in a different kind of behaviour and the goal is to find some improvement in behaviour.
As I said at the top of the thread, I've heard women suggesting to women that they can trade sex for housework for years and years. They frame it as withdrawal of sex for not doing housework, not as granting sex as a reward for housework, but it's exactly the same thing: linking performance of housework with having sex.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Good to hear it from an expert, seeing as how there are probably millions of women who fantasize about being tied to a bed and ravished by Pat Robertson. Mmm hmm.
D**n it, now I gotta gouge out my eyes to expunge that mental image
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In other households, there are men entrenched in a different kind of behaviour and the goal is to find some improvement in behaviour.
As I said at the top of the thread, I've heard women suggesting to women that they can trade sex for housework for years and years. They frame it as withdrawal of sex for not doing housework, not as granting sex as a reward for housework, but it's exactly the same thing: linking performance of housework with having sex.
I suspect that such households continue because it works for both participants. I am regularly disgusted and baffled by the way women refer to/joke about men as children. It's stupid sexism that hurts everyone. The men know their wives don't think of them as grownups, but they also know that their wives don't expect them to clean up after themselves. So of course they don't bother to clean up after themselves!
[ 28. May 2014, 15:40: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
The treats, or the kids?
Damn. My eldest is past thirty and now Matt tells me what I should have been doing all along.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
The treats, or the kids?
I left some of my drafting skills at the office, a number of hours before midnight.
Truth be told, I did spot some flaws with that sentence but I thought it was more fun not to solve them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Why did I get involved in this conversation anyway? If a woman told me she'd have sex with me if I did the housework, I'd immediately put down whatever I was doing and move out. I'm not comfortable with that level of threat.
Night.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more? Whether his thinking framework objectively makes sense, or whether you can find a way to tweak his behaviour just enough to get a desirable result?
I don't expect kids to naturally want to please their parents enough to clean their rooms. But if your man won't do homework because you ask him and indicate it will please you, but only if you reward him with sex, you need a better man.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Sorry, but one of my sore points is British people who write ass instead of arse.
O God No! God's Isle is being infected by American barbarisms! Aux barricades!
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As I said at the top of the thread, I've heard women suggesting to women that they can trade sex for housework for years and years. They frame it as withdrawal of sex for not doing housework, not as granting sex as a reward for housework, but it's exactly the same thing: linking performance of housework with having sex.
This reminds me of the old story:
CHILD: Daddy, I'm going to be a lobbyist when I grow up. I want to start practicing now, so every day you give me an ice cream, I'll clean my room the next day.
DAD: That's not lobbying, that's bribery.
CHILD: Fine. You give me an ice cream every day, and I'll clean my room every day, but if one day you don't give me an ice cream, I won't clean my room the next day.
DAD: There you go. THAT is lobbying.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gareth
Shipmate
# 2494
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Why did I get involved in this conversation anyway? If a woman told me she'd have sex with me if I did the housework, I'd immediately put down whatever I was doing and move out. I'm not comfortable with that level of threat.
Night.
I agree.
Using the act of physical intimacy as a weapon in a manipulative power play is an assault on a relationship. (I understand that for some couples, their entire relationship is based on an imbalance of power - but I reckon that's already unhealthy enough, so a bit of manipulation isn't going to do much more harm.
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke
Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I am seriously thinking about writing a book.
The working title is: Etymological Evangelical's Guide to Becoming an Atheist in 4 Easy Steps
Step 1. Watch a Pat Robertson video.
Step 2. Convince yourself that Pat Robertson represents Christianity.
Step 3. Try to get your head round his utterances, until your mind feels well and truly pissed.
Step 4. Become atheist.
Job done!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth:
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
I agree. For the most part.
Although there's also the reality that if both people are working outside the home and one of them is doing far more than their fair share of the household chores and childcare, they may in fact sometimes simply be too tired to engage in any hanky panky - hence the whole 'sometimes doing the dishes is the best foreplay' joke or the totally work-safe porn for women phenomenon.
And at what point is it acceptable to admit that while women are not vending machines and a strictly transactional model of interaction is inaccurate, there really are things (like, for example, acting like a misogynistic jerk or being abusive) which are going to decrease our desire for physical intimacy? Or the converse, that there are things that increase our desire for it?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth:
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
I agree. For the most part.
Although there's also the reality that if both people are working outside the home and one of them is doing far more than their fair share of the household chores and childcare, they may in fact sometimes simply be too tired to engage in any hanky panky - hence the whole 'sometimes doing the dishes is the best foreplay' joke or the totally work-safe porn for women phenomenon.
And at what point is it acceptable to admit that while women are not vending machines and a strictly transactional model of interaction is inaccurate, there really are things (like, for example, acting like a misogynistic jerk or being abusive) which are going to decrease our desire for physical intimacy? Or the converse, that there are things that increase our desire for it?
The point is honesty. To respond to a romantic overture with, "I'd love to sweetie, but honestly, I'm too exhausted. Maybe we can talk about how we can divide up chores so I'm more available in the evenings?" seems quite a bit different than a more transactional (pardon-the-expression) tit-for-tat deal. It seems to communicate more mutual respect and the expectation that the male partner cares about more than just getting laid.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
And at what point is it acceptable to admit that while women are not vending machines and a strictly transactional model of interaction is inaccurate, there really are things (like, for example, acting like a misogynistic jerk or being abusive) which are going to decrease our desire for physical intimacy? Or the converse, that there are things that increase our desire for it?
Yes, I'm sure that's what Pat Robertson was getting at.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh dear. Somehow my homosexuality joke became a serious point.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gareth
Shipmate
# 2494
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth:
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
I agree. For the most part.
Although there's also the reality that if both people are working outside the home and one of them is doing far more than their fair share of the household chores and childcare, they may in fact sometimes simply be too tired to engage in any hanky panky
I love the implication that it's the one who is doing the housework and childcare who is too knackered for sex! What bollocks!
I admit, housework is not something I really throw myself at. But when I quit teaching and became a househusband, I suddenly found myself with 12 hours a day free AFTER I'd done the dishes, the laundry, the cooking, sorted the kids out, been shopping and read the papers.
If I'd bothered cleaning everything, I'm sure that would have taken up some more time - but I'd still have had a good 8-10 hours a day for my books, strategy war games, dog walking, volunteer work, nose picking, watching Jeremy Kyle and playing with my son's lego.
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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke
Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Not that I want to get into a pissing contest with you, Gareth, but that's not my experience at all. Yes, I have some free time during the day, but most of my evenings are spent doing taxi-duty, because Mrs Tor doesn't normally get back in until we've gone out.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gareth
Shipmate
# 2494
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Posted
Sorry - I didn't mean to challenge you to a pissing contest.
The thing is, when I was working full time, I still had domestic chores and taxi duties to do.
When I quit work, suddenly the ONLY things I had to do were the domestic and taxi duties. And it doesn't matter what my family has done to my house, cleaning up after them is still a piece of piss compared with a 60 hour a week job teaching for a living AND cleaning up after the kids as well.
See my point?
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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke
Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think your point is that your paid job sucked.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth:
Sorry - I didn't mean to challenge you to a pissing contest.
The thing is, when I was working full time, I still had domestic chores and taxi duties to do.
When I quit work, suddenly the ONLY things I had to do were the domestic and taxi duties. And it doesn't matter what my family has done to my house, cleaning up after them is still a piece of piss compared with a 60 hour a week job teaching for a living AND cleaning up after the kids as well.
See my point?
It does make a bit of a difference what age the kids are. Young enough, and you don't get to taxi them somewhere, you get to try and do the domestic chores around them while they strew obstacles in your way, spill juice on the floor, and fight with each other. BC (before children), I probably did about 70% of the household chores, as well as working, but I was fine with that. At present, I am not working (in paid employment), so it seems fair to me that I do around 95% of them. But they are made a lot more thankless than they might be by the fact that you can never get a proper run at things, due to some emergency or another, and nothing ever stays clean/tidy for more than a couple of hours at best.
And, just to return to the original point, housework/happy wife/more sex paradigm, perhaps, on average, it works like that. But let me tell you, when you are a mobile lactation unit who is also wrist deep in excrement or vomit a number of times a day, no amount of chores/foot massages/deep baths are going to make you want to have any more interface with bodily fluids than you are already having...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth:
Sorry - I didn't mean to challenge you to a pissing contest.
The thing is, when I was working full time, I still had domestic chores and taxi duties to do.
When I quit work, suddenly the ONLY things I had to do were the domestic and taxi duties. And it doesn't matter what my family has done to my house, cleaning up after them is still a piece of piss compared with a 60 hour a week job teaching for a living AND cleaning up after the kids as well.
See my point?
Yes, of course. I had a part-time teaching job (up till last July) and even though that was technically - the bits I got paid for - two afternoons a week, I spent about half the week on it.
But housework is insanely boring, and even those bits which aren't, are. I'm putting off resealing the bath at this very moment. I did it when I built the bathroom (I am Man. See me Plumb!), and I've done it twice since. Why the shuddering fuck should I have to do it again? Why isn't it someone else's turn, since I have four other functional adults in the house?
I have the same attitude to the other household chores. I'm the only one who ever does the vast majority of them, over and over again. I even get called to help to register on websites and pay for stuff over the internet when the companies concerned have not only made it so incredibly simple to do so, they're practically begging you to spend money with them.
And that, gentlemen, is why you don't get any. It's rage and resentment, built up over many, many years. It's not about housework per se, but housework is symbolic of why. It's the mere fact that it takes longer to tidy up other people's crap that they've just left there than it does to hoover the carpet that lay under all the crap.
And breathe...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gareth
Shipmate
# 2494
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think your point is that your paid job sucked.
Yes - I was a teacher. It was a difficult job, but the part that makes teaching suck is the treatment teachers endure at the hands of the Government and education authorities.
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
And, just to return to the original point, housework/happy wife/more sex paradigm, perhaps, on average, it works like that. But let me tell you, when you are a mobile lactation unit who is also wrist deep in excrement or vomit a number of times a day, no amount of chores/foot massages/deep baths are going to make you want to have any more interface with bodily fluids than you are already having...
Point taken and duly noted. When I was spending much of every night cleaning excrement off an autistic toddler and his bedroom, I was happily spared the effect of it destroying my libido - although I because very neurotic about scrubbing myself clean in a power shower several times a day.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's not about housework per se, but housework is symbolic of why. It's the mere fact that it takes longer to tidy up other people's crap that they've just left there than it does to hoover the carpet that lay under all the crap.
And breathe...
As I've said before, cleaning and tidying is easier than my job was - but I still don't do it as much as I should.
But your point brings me back to what I said about power in relationships. If you don't mind me going all pop-psychologist for a moment, the resentment you describe is possibly less about the housework than it is about the transactional status of the people involved: if you've reached a point where others feel they don't even have to pick up their own crap because that's your job, then the imbalance of status and respect is bound to cause resentment.
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"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke
Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth:
But your point brings me back to what I said about power in relationships. If you don't mind me going all pop-psychologist for a moment, the resentment you describe is possibly less about the housework than it is about the transactional status of the people involved: if you've reached a point where others feel they don't even have to pick up their own crap because that's your job, then the imbalance of status and respect is bound to cause resentment.
Yeah. I think at this point I'll draw a veil over the Tors' domestic arrangements, in case I go off on one (again...)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Pat Robertson is
full of great ideas and a couple of twists of the double helix away from being a baboon. And I apologise to any baboons offended by that remark.
quote:
"(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." –Pat Robertson
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
Not in my house.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
Okay, so what's the consequence if they don't help? Is there any? Have they always just accepted that helping out is normal behaviour?
I suppose the consequence is a stand-up fight with their lovely father, who'll point out all the things he does without being reminded.
The usual statement is "I expect you to have done your chores by the time it gets to dinner time." They get done. Perhaps they shame easily, or perhaps I just have great kids...
Allowing kids to contribute to the running of the household, and modeling your own satisfaction at getting this job done, gives value to the act itself-- it becomes its own reward-- and actually demonstrates respect for the child. When you set goals for them, you imply the can reach them. This is exactly why those vapid commercials about women trumping men at housework and tricking them to eat healthy piss mee off-- they are selling smugness to women as a virtue, and incompetence to men as a privilege.
I was working with a teacher who was barking at a group of kids who had taken every single block off of the shelf and didn't want to put them back. Every time she shouted, the kids would each pick up two blocks and go back to farting around. I came over and began working with them, dividing up the job between people who would collect different shapes and people who sat in front of the shelves and sorted them.( Everyone just sort of picked a job that suited them. ) Nobody got a treat or reward-- we just sat back and admired how neat the shelf was, and went off to lunch.
I was raised to look at housework as an indication of rank-- adults got to be slobs, and kids cleaned up their messes. I had to actively teach myself that housework benefits me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But housework is insanely boring, and even those bits which aren't, are.
Are you familiar with the housework song?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What about those homes where the housework is done by the au pair?
Housework needs to be done but is dull in the extreme - personally I say have the sex and let the house stay filthy.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What about those homes where the housework is done by the au pair?
I think the tradition in these circumstances is for Dad to sleep with the au pair.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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