Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
False outrage. Women have been making that suggestion, to other women, for YEARS. I've heard it lots of times and my sexual activities don't even involve any women.
quote:Creepy is one word. There are others.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think the problem is that Pat appears to be saying women OWE IT TO MEN to give them sex if they will just do a little vacuuming. Entitlement. Kinda creepy that this should come out now, given what happened in Santa Barbara.
quote:Actually, it shows I care about the glassware. We have a dishwasher for the other stuff.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Washing up is foreplay, because it shows you actually care about the other person.
quote:Oh, I'm sure there's no end to your automatic appliances...
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:Actually, it shows I care about the glassware. We have a dishwasher for the other stuff.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Washing up is foreplay, because it shows you actually care about the other person.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:Also, more housework done = more horizontal surfaces.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Washing up is foreplay, because it shows you actually care about the other person.
quote:Precisely. It's the whole misogynistic theology leading to rape culture (see Purg thread) yet again. No-one has an 'entitlement to sex'.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think the problem is that Pat appears to be saying women OWE IT TO MEN to give them sex if they will just do a little vacuuming. Entitlement. Kinda creepy that this should come out now, given what happened in Santa Barbara.
quote:Good to hear it from an expert, seeing as how there are probably millions of women who fantasize about being tied to a bed and ravished by Pat Robertson. Mmm hmm.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Anyone want me to do their dishes for them? Happy to negotiate my rates.
Pat Robertson says reward your spouse with sex for doing housework.
quote:If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more? Whether his thinking framework objectively makes sense, or whether you can find a way to tweak his behaviour just enough to get a desirable result?
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
quote:Not in my house.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
quote:And some men, too.
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Good to hear it from an expert, seeing as how there are probably millions of women who fantasize about being tied to a bed and ravished by Pat Robertson. Mmm hmm.
quote:Okay, so what's the consequence if they don't help? Is there any? Have they always just accepted that helping out is normal behaviour?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Not in my house.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
quote:If my husband had somehow been reduced to toddler maturity and wouldn't participate in our household because he was part of the household, wanted a clean house, and wanted to keep the rest of us happy, the cleanliness of the house would be far and away not our worst problem!
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more?
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
quote:I suppose the consequence is a stand-up fight with their lovely father, who'll point out all the things he does without being reminded.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Okay, so what's the consequence if they don't help? Is there any? Have they always just accepted that helping out is normal behaviour?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Not in my house.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
quote:The treats, or the kids?
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
quote:I agree.
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:If my husband had somehow been reduced to toddler maturity and wouldn't participate in our household because he was part of the household, wanted a clean house, and wanted to keep the rest of us happy, the cleanliness of the house would be far and away not our worst problem!
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more?
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So, if a man does housework, he deserves a reward. If a woman does housework, she's just doing her job.
quote:D**n it, now I gotta gouge out my eyes to expunge that mental image
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Good to hear it from an expert, seeing as how there are probably millions of women who fantasize about being tied to a bed and ravished by Pat Robertson. Mmm hmm.
quote:I suspect that such households continue because it works for both participants. I am regularly disgusted and baffled by the way women refer to/joke about men as children. It's stupid sexism that hurts everyone. The men know their wives don't think of them as grownups, but they also know that their wives don't expect them to clean up after themselves. So of course they don't bother to clean up after themselves!
Originally posted by orfeo:
In other households, there are men entrenched in a different kind of behaviour and the goal is to find some improvement in behaviour.
As I said at the top of the thread, I've heard women suggesting to women that they can trade sex for housework for years and years. They frame it as withdrawal of sex for not doing housework, not as granting sex as a reward for housework, but it's exactly the same thing: linking performance of housework with having sex.
quote:Damn. My eldest is past thirty and now Matt tells me what I should have been doing all along.
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:The treats, or the kids?
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
quote:I left some of my drafting skills at the office, a number of hours before midnight.
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:The treats, or the kids?
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
quote:I don't expect kids to naturally want to please their parents enough to clean their rooms. But if your man won't do homework because you ask him and indicate it will please you, but only if you reward him with sex, you need a better man.
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're trying to get a man who doesn't do any housework to do some housework, which matters more? Whether his thinking framework objectively makes sense, or whether you can find a way to tweak his behaviour just enough to get a desirable result?
quote:O God No! God's Isle is being infected by American barbarisms! Aux barricades!
Originally posted by Albertus:
Sorry, but one of my sore points is British people who write ass instead of arse.
quote:This reminds me of the old story:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As I said at the top of the thread, I've heard women suggesting to women that they can trade sex for housework for years and years. They frame it as withdrawal of sex for not doing housework, not as granting sex as a reward for housework, but it's exactly the same thing: linking performance of housework with having sex.
quote:I agree.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Why did I get involved in this conversation anyway? If a woman told me she'd have sex with me if I did the housework, I'd immediately put down whatever I was doing and move out. I'm not comfortable with that level of threat.
Night.
quote:I agree. For the most part.
Originally posted by Gareth:
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
quote:The point is honesty. To respond to a romantic overture with, "I'd love to sweetie, but honestly, I'm too exhausted. Maybe we can talk about how we can divide up chores so I'm more available in the evenings?" seems quite a bit different than a more transactional (pardon-the-expression) tit-for-tat deal. It seems to communicate more mutual respect and the expectation that the male partner cares about more than just getting laid.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:I agree. For the most part.
Originally posted by Gareth:
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
Although there's also the reality that if both people are working outside the home and one of them is doing far more than their fair share of the household chores and childcare, they may in fact sometimes simply be too tired to engage in any hanky panky - hence the whole 'sometimes doing the dishes is the best foreplay' joke or the totally work-safe porn for women phenomenon.
And at what point is it acceptable to admit that while women are not vending machines and a strictly transactional model of interaction is inaccurate, there really are things (like, for example, acting like a misogynistic jerk or being abusive) which are going to decrease our desire for physical intimacy? Or the converse, that there are things that increase our desire for it?
quote:Yes, I'm sure that's what Pat Robertson was getting at.
Originally posted by saysay:
And at what point is it acceptable to admit that while women are not vending machines and a strictly transactional model of interaction is inaccurate, there really are things (like, for example, acting like a misogynistic jerk or being abusive) which are going to decrease our desire for physical intimacy? Or the converse, that there are things that increase our desire for it?
quote:I love the implication that it's the one who is doing the housework and childcare who is too knackered for sex! What bollocks!
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:I agree. For the most part.
Originally posted by Gareth:
And then there's the implication that sex is something people should earn, or be rewarded with, or be denied as a sanction... that turns it into a commodity, which to my mind is a huge problem.
Although there's also the reality that if both people are working outside the home and one of them is doing far more than their fair share of the household chores and childcare, they may in fact sometimes simply be too tired to engage in any hanky panky
quote:It does make a bit of a difference what age the kids are. Young enough, and you don't get to taxi them somewhere, you get to try and do the domestic chores around them while they strew obstacles in your way, spill juice on the floor, and fight with each other. BC (before children), I probably did about 70% of the household chores, as well as working, but I was fine with that. At present, I am not working (in paid employment), so it seems fair to me that I do around 95% of them. But they are made a lot more thankless than they might be by the fact that you can never get a proper run at things, due to some emergency or another, and nothing ever stays clean/tidy for more than a couple of hours at best.
Originally posted by Gareth:
Sorry - I didn't mean to challenge you to a pissing contest.
The thing is, when I was working full time, I still had domestic chores and taxi duties to do.
When I quit work, suddenly the ONLY things I had to do were the domestic and taxi duties. And it doesn't matter what my family has done to my house, cleaning up after them is still a piece of piss compared with a 60 hour a week job teaching for a living AND cleaning up after the kids as well.
See my point?
quote:Yes, of course. I had a part-time teaching job (up till last July) and even though that was technically - the bits I got paid for - two afternoons a week, I spent about half the week on it.
Originally posted by Gareth:
Sorry - I didn't mean to challenge you to a pissing contest.
The thing is, when I was working full time, I still had domestic chores and taxi duties to do.
When I quit work, suddenly the ONLY things I had to do were the domestic and taxi duties. And it doesn't matter what my family has done to my house, cleaning up after them is still a piece of piss compared with a 60 hour a week job teaching for a living AND cleaning up after the kids as well.
See my point?
quote:Yes - I was a teacher. It was a difficult job, but the part that makes teaching suck is the treatment teachers endure at the hands of the Government and education authorities.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think your point is that your paid job sucked.
quote:Point taken and duly noted. When I was spending much of every night cleaning excrement off an autistic toddler and his bedroom, I was happily spared the effect of it destroying my libido - although I because very neurotic about scrubbing myself clean in a power shower several times a day.
Originally posted by anoesis:
And, just to return to the original point, housework/happy wife/more sex paradigm, perhaps, on average, it works like that. But let me tell you, when you are a mobile lactation unit who is also wrist deep in excrement or vomit a number of times a day, no amount of chores/foot massages/deep baths are going to make you want to have any more interface with bodily fluids than you are already having...
quote:As I've said before, cleaning and tidying is easier than my job was - but I still don't do it as much as I should.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's not about housework per se, but housework is symbolic of why. It's the mere fact that it takes longer to tidy up other people's crap that they've just left there than it does to hoover the carpet that lay under all the crap.
And breathe...
quote:Yeah. I think at this point I'll draw a veil over the Tors' domestic arrangements, in case I go off on one (again...)
Originally posted by Gareth:
But your point brings me back to what I said about power in relationships. If you don't mind me going all pop-psychologist for a moment, the resentment you describe is possibly less about the housework than it is about the transactional status of the people involved: if you've reached a point where others feel they don't even have to pick up their own crap because that's your job, then the imbalance of status and respect is bound to cause resentment.
quote:
"(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." –Pat Robertson
quote:Allowing kids to contribute to the running of the household, and modeling your own satisfaction at getting this job done, gives value to the act itself-- it becomes its own reward-- and actually demonstrates respect for the child. When you set goals for them, you imply the can reach them. This is exactly why those vapid commercials about women trumping men at housework and tricking them to eat healthy piss mee off-- they are selling smugness to women as a virtue, and incompetence to men as a privilege.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:I suppose the consequence is a stand-up fight with their lovely father, who'll point out all the things he does without being reminded.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Okay, so what's the consequence if they don't help? Is there any? Have they always just accepted that helping out is normal behaviour?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Not in my house.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Kids don't have an entitlement to treats, either, but we dangle them as rewards for cleaning up their rooms.
When they were old enough to help, they helped. What they're asked to do now is clean the bathrooms and sweep the hard floors every week, and sometimes cook meals, wash up, run errands and such like. They've always been expected to keep their rooms clean.
I don't expect a reward for doing the lion's share of the rest of it, but I do expect an occasional break from it.
The usual statement is "I expect you to have done your chores by the time it gets to dinner time." They get done. Perhaps they shame easily, or perhaps I just have great kids...
quote:Are you familiar with the housework song?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But housework is insanely boring, and even those bits which aren't, are.
quote:I think the tradition in these circumstances is for Dad to sleep with the au pair.
Originally posted by L'organist:
What about those homes where the housework is done by the au pair?
quote:Tell me about it
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
In a study just out yesterday, there's another reason for dads to help out: Dads who do household chores more likely to have ambitious daughters.
quote:ROFL
Originally posted by no prophet:
Pat Robertson is
full of great ideas and a couple of twists of the double helix away from being a baboon. And I apologise to any baboons offended by that remark.
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quote:Note to self: if Hell freezes over and I end up having a daughter, do all the chores.
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
In a study just out yesterday, there's another reason for dads to help out: Dads who do household chores more likely to have ambitious daughters.
quote:This would be precisely what Robertson is afraid of, no?
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:Note to self: if Hell freezes over and I end up having a daughter, do all the chores.
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
In a study just out yesterday, there's another reason for dads to help out: Dads who do household chores more likely to have ambitious daughters.
The thought of an ambitious, take no prisoners, whip-smart Aristondaughter (clearly takes after her [hypothetical] mother…) should absolutely terrify all of you. Your puny world will be no match for her.
