Ship of Fools: The First Minister And His Raft of Racist Asshats

Thread: The First Minister And His Raft of Racist Asshats Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027146

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Here is the story (with a bit of bias to try an make it more palatable of course)

Why is the Prime Minister silent on this? Why is the First Minister (and indeed all the other politicians that have chimed in with equally racist tripe) not being asked to tender their resignation? How on earth is this allowed to happen at all?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Oh brilliant. A nice little piece of validation for every thug who's inclined to a spot of literal Muslim-bashing instead of metaphorical.

A nice little lesson for all the children growing up (including, of course, the Muslim children) to find out what the Important Man thinks.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

While I absolutely would not condone McConnell's remarks, it seems to me that with friends like that thug Peter Robinson*, he probably doesn't need enemies.

* He was our MP when we lived in Belfast - not, I hasten to add, with any help from us.

[slight tangent]
I remember when the Metropolitan Tabernacle was built - it was a one-off, not AFAIK affiliated to any other churches, but somewhere near the extreme fundamental/evangelical end of the spectrum, and as rich as Croesus. McConnell's name was engraved on a granite pillar at the entrance - he obviously wasn't planning on going anywhere - and a colleague whose church's Ladies' Guild went to visit the place said it was almost obscenely opulent.

Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on :

Preachers in the Northern Irish/Scottish Calvinist tradition regularly lambast the antichrist, the whore of Babylon Rome. Why does this not count as actionable hate speech when similarly worded attacks on Islam do?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

StevHep has a point - religious hate speech is a part of the political makeup of NI. That is not to say it is acceptable (it isn't). This means that if you arrested everyone who engaged in it, the prisons would have to be expanded to cover most of the province.

The problem is the weasel politicians we have these days always explain that they have been taken out of context, that they didn't mean, of course, what it sounds like they said, that they respect whatever group they have just pissed off. And Cameron is as bad.

I think the answer is that people shouldn't vote for those who express themselves in racist or sexist terms. Sadly, people still keep voting for these shitbags.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

The difficulties of prosecution for hate speech from a pulpit I can understand, although it must be said that McConnell's rant was particularly nasty. What I don't get is how the First Minister of Stormont and an MP in the UK can actually not only come out in support of the rant, but also make his own racist comments to boot and yet can walk away from it all without any consequences whatsoever. It's akin to Obama saying 'I don't trust Mexican's to do anything, but I guess they make a good job of cleaning my yard' and then having a pile of politicians chiming in in agreement. Robnson gave some half-assed apology on the tv yesterday which illustrated that he didn't even have a clue that he'd been grossly offensive and incendiary. Other politicians who have come out with their on little shit nuggets have been suspended, but Robinson's golden turd tops them all, yet he walks away without being held responsible to any of his bile. It's astonishing.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

N. Ireland is almost like a parallel universe, where known laws of morality and decency don't necessarily apply. So it is sometimes exempt from British laws, e.g. on equal marriage, or abortion. Creationists stalk the halls of power, and Westminster doesn't enquire too closely, so as not to disturb a wasps' nest, I suppose.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Last time I looked, the Good Friday agreement - in fact any policy or law relating to Northern Ireland - did not endorse or condone institutional racism.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Last time I looked, the Good Friday agreement - in fact any policy or law relating to Northern Ireland - did not endorse or condone institutional racism.

True enough, but it didn't do much about the underlying culture.

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

I find this equally depressing.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I find this equally depressing.

In there is the gem that "Robinson had not meant to insult Islam when he defended McConnell". In that case is he smart enough for the job of First Minister? Is he smart enough for any job?

[ 30. May 2014, 12:04: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Since when did calling Islam satanic become racist? If he had said all Arabs are thieves, then that would be, but referring to another religion as satanic isn't.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Since when did calling Islam satanic become racist? If he had said all Arabs are thieves, then that would be, but referring to another religion as satanic isn't.

In the Western world though Christian preachers make a living out of attacking the same religion, again and again. Did you know that there are laws against hate speech based on faith?

It's derogatory, inflammatory and based on nothing more than prejudice and hate. Isn't that enough?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

I don't see what's hateful in believing false religions to be satanic.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Did you know that there are laws against hate speech based on faith?

The koran spews it, but should it be banned?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Did you know that there are laws against hate speech based on faith?
The koran spews it, but should it be banned?

I think (there's that awkward and possible novel concept, thinking) that whatever the Koran or Bible says is nowhere near as inflammatory as someone in a leadership position, such as a prominent pastor or for that matter a rabbi or an imam, deliberately stating the same things for effect in the here and now.

When a politician, especially one in an executive position, gets involved in it and subsequently regrets it, you can be sure he should never have got involved in the first place. And that he knows it.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I think that whatever the Koran or Bible says is nowhere near as inflammatory as someone in a leadership position, such as a prominent pastor or for that matter a rabbi or an imam, deliberately stating the same things for effect in the here and now.

I look at the opposite way. Scriptures are important and defining, not what some guy rambles on about.

quote:
When a politician, especially one in an executive position, gets involved in it and subsequently regrets it, you can be sure he should never have got involved in the first place. And that he knows it.

Or he may just regret having to deal with folks who have a problem with other folks being honest about what they see.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Mere Nick, we're diametrically opposed on this and, while this is Hell, there's only so much mud to be redistributed.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Mere Nick, we're diametrically opposed on this and, while this is Hell, there's only so much mud to be redistributed.

Yep.

Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on :

I'm inclined to enter a protest here on regarding this as a 'racist' issue. Islam, whatever its other faults, is not a racist religion but regards all races as equal and has converts of all races. The religion can therefore be challenged without any necessary racist implication. Agreed that as an accident of history most Muslims are not white - but then nor were most early Eastern Mediterranean Christians....

It is a bit more difficult when dealing with religions which really are somewhat ethnically exclusive. It's very hard to attempt rational critique of Judaism without running into accusations of 'anti-Semitism', and some other religions like Shinto in Japan are rather entangled in a single ethnic group.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Did you know that there are laws against hate speech based on faith?
The koran spews it, but should it be banned?

Where is hate speech in the Qur'an? (There is plenty of incitement to violence and murder in the bible)

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't see what's hateful in believing false religions to be satanic.

It's hateful to publicly express that belief because it involves expecting other people to share your belief in the falsity of the religion.

It's no different in principle to me going around and telling all the people who love John Lennon's song Imagine that it's actually one of the most annoying, turgid and generally despicable songs in the history of popular music. That is my personal opinion of it. I'm well aware, though, that quite a lot of people do NOT share that opinion of the song, and I don't particularly feel the need to regularly state that view in the hearing of Imagine-lovers. I simply turn the song off if it appears on the radio (well, I did when I used to listen to radio with any regularity).

One of the basic points in the response to the First Minister is that his role involves representing all people. Including the ones who didn't vote for him. Including the ones who think his taste in music is appalling and vice versa. Including the ones whose religious beliefs are totally at odds with his own.

It's hateful to communicate to the people that you're representing or living alongside that you somehow resent having to represent the likes of them or live alongside the likes of them, when all they've been doing is going about their daily lives in pretty much the same way non-satanic people do.

But then, I don't expect YOU to understand any of this, because your entire Ship history is littered with demonstrations of your complete incomprehension of anyone who doesn't think, act and behave exactly the same way that you do. You're like the Stepford Wife of Christianity.

[ 30. May 2014, 17:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Hmm, so marching or not marching down a particular street, or hoisting or not hoisting a flag, are insults of great magnitude that threaten the entire fabric of civil society, but merely calling another religion Satanic is of no consequence whatever.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Hmm, so marching or not marching down a particular street, or hoisting or not hoisting a flag, are insults of great magnitude that threaten the entire fabric of civil society, but merely calling another religion Satanic is of no consequence whatever.

To forbid honesty about what one believes about something is of tremendous consequence.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't see what's hateful in believing false religions to be satanic.
It's hateful to publicly express that belief because it involves expecting other people to share your belief in the falsity of the religion.

It's no different in principle to me going around and telling all the people who love John Lennon's song Imagine that it's actually one of the most annoying, turgid and generally despicable songs in the history of popular music. That is my personal opinion of it. I'm well aware, though, that quite a lot of people do NOT share that opinion of the song, and I don't particularly feel the need to regularly state that view in the hearing of Imagine-lovers. I simply turn the song off if it appears on the radio (well, I did when I used to listen to radio with any regularity).

One of the basic points in the response to the First Minister is that his role involves representing all people. Including the ones who didn't vote for him. Including the ones who think his taste in music is appalling and vice versa. Including the ones whose religious beliefs are totally at odds with his own.

It's hateful to communicate to the people that you're representing or living alongside that you somehow resent having to represent the likes of them or live alongside the likes of them, when all they've been doing is going about their daily lives in pretty much the same way non-satanic people do.

But then, I don't expect YOU to understand any of this, because your entire Ship history is littered with demonstrations of your complete incomprehension of anyone who doesn't think, act and behave exactly the same way that you do. You're like the Stepford Wife of Christianity.

So, people should just shut the fuck up if you don't like something they have to say? Nice one, pal.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Hmm, so marching or not marching down a particular street, or hoisting or not hoisting a flag, are insults of great magnitude that threaten the entire fabric of civil society, but merely calling another religion Satanic is of no consequence whatever.
To forbid honesty about what one believes about something is of tremendous consequence.

There's a difference between speaking as a private individual and speaking as a representative of an organisation, as anyone who's ever been in employment would know.

But actually, I can see the merits of a position that says that free speech is paramount, insults never hurt anyone, Muslims should take it on the chin and hypersensitive liberals should get over themselves. But Robinson is leader of the DUP. They're a bunch of hypersensitive petrol bombs who think the offence they take at trivialities is important enough to derail the entire peace process.

(Not that Sinn Féin are any better, but they aren't the subject of this thread.)

[ 30. May 2014, 18:38: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I'm reminded of an old and probably not very funny joke, given what has happened to the Chinese MP. He obviously thinks they are Catholic Muslims.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't see what's hateful in believing false religions to be satanic.
It's hateful to publicly express that belief because it involves expecting other people to share your belief in the falsity of the religion.

It's no different in principle to me going around and telling all the people who love John Lennon's song Imagine that it's actually one of the most annoying, turgid and generally despicable songs in the history of popular music. That is my personal opinion of it. I'm well aware, though, that quite a lot of people do NOT share that opinion of the song, and I don't particularly feel the need to regularly state that view in the hearing of Imagine-lovers. I simply turn the song off if it appears on the radio (well, I did when I used to listen to radio with any regularity).

One of the basic points in the response to the First Minister is that his role involves representing all people. Including the ones who didn't vote for him. Including the ones who think his taste in music is appalling and vice versa. Including the ones whose religious beliefs are totally at odds with his own.

It's hateful to communicate to the people that you're representing or living alongside that you somehow resent having to represent the likes of them or live alongside the likes of them, when all they've been doing is going about their daily lives in pretty much the same way non-satanic people do.

But then, I don't expect YOU to understand any of this, because your entire Ship history is littered with demonstrations of your complete incomprehension of anyone who doesn't think, act and behave exactly the same way that you do. You're like the Stepford Wife of Christianity.
So, people should just shut the fuck up if you don't like something they have to say? Nice one, pal.

Thanks, you have just demonstrated that "complete incomprehension" referred to in the last paragraph of the post you have quoted.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Only in his mind. Oh yeah! And john Lennon's Imagine is crap. Why shouldn't I express that opinion?

[ 30. May 2014, 18:52: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on :

By Ricardus;

quote:
But Robinson is leader of the DUP. They're a bunch of hypersensitive petrol bombs who think the offence they take at trivialities is important enough to derail the entire peace process.

(Not that Sinn Féin are any better, but they aren't the subject of this thread.)

It is a major irony of this situation that the outlook of both 'sides' in NI is pretty much the same as the extremist Muslims they decry...

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

An irony not missed by many.

Just to put this in context - context being fairly important generally, but utterly crucial in this instance - Northern Ireland currently has an average of two to three racially motivated crimes reported to the police EVERY DAY.

Whatever some might 'think' the Koran (or any other religious text) says, there are currently no Muslims, Daosits, Buddhists, Hindus or Orthodox Christians from the rest of Europe on the streets asking for jihad, the destruction of satanic temples of evil, publicly decrying Protestant and Catholic Christian propensity towards untrustworthyness, yet for some reason they are the same people being attacked, having their home firebombed, being intimidated out of their homes, being abused in the street and in parliament by elected MP's.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0