Originally posted by ken:
We've decided to concentrate on the League this year
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
quote:I do wonder if you can you get sacks that size.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Looking even worse for West Ham now after that loss to Fulham. Hoping Fat Sam gets the sack.
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quote:What do you think of Ian Holloway as manager? Can you forgive him his connection with Palace?
Originally posted by ken:
We've decided to concentrate on the League this year
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:It looks like Defoe could be unveiled next week, but the bigger news for Toronto for now is Michael Bradley coming over from Roma. His playing time was down this year, but he has been a force in Italy in the past, and probably has a few more miles left in him than Defoe. While I am a little worried about how this might affect the game of one of the key players in the US squad, I'd say Toronto made a heck of a grab.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Assured myself of a season ticket today. 74 days until the home opener. 17 league games and 2 cup matches. For me, it works out to $30 a game for tickets in the area just below the middle range price wise.
Snow, rain, blazing sun, humidity and getting the chance to watch Defoe miss sitters (or so the persistent rumours state).
quote:Mildly stunned to be honest. If they can afford him why did they ever go for... but then it was rumoured that Sean Dyche was interested in coming to Millwall last year, and look what happened to him!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:What do you think of Ian Holloway as manager? Can you forgive him his connection with Palace?
Originally posted by ken:
We've decided to concentrate on the League this year
quote:Blackburn's in the money (weren't City generous?) and the quadruple's still on for us.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend
...City were forced to a replay.
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quote:Football's changed an awful lot since then. While I appreciate that United fans might be more patient than many other clubs', I wouldn't bet against the Glaziers taking a different view.
Originally posted by deano:
Laugh at United all you want, we are in it for the long haul. It took Fergie 3 or 4 seasons to start winning but once we did we didn't stop.
quote:Moyes has taken over a club that, since the 2007-08 season has won the Premiership four times, two League Cups and a Champions League title. In the five years before Fergie took over the Mancs had won the FA Cup twice, in 1983 and 1985. The baselines are totally different.
Originally posted by deano:
Laugh at United all you want, we are in it for the long haul. It took Fergie 3 or 4 seasons to start winning but once we did we didn't stop.
David Moyes will do the same.
quote:If your players don't throw themselves at the ground so often, that will help the pitch.
Originally posted by deano:
Thought you lot might like to know that our poor season is all part of the plan...
MANCHESTER United manager David Moyes has announced that Old Trafford will enjoy a season of rest in 2013-14 to let the soil recover.
Just you lot wait!
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code:JtW's predictions for the end-of-season top 7 (in this order):Team G.Diff Points
Man C 42 53
Arsenal 24 52
Chelsea 23 50
Liverpool 29 46
Spurs - 1 43
Everton 11 42
Man U 11 40
quote:I don't want to rain on anybody's parade but van Persie and Rooney are back, Mata has joined and Fellaini & Carrick will be back soon.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Mancs won't surpass my Spurs: don't forget how we defeated them on New Year's Day. They are no longer top four contenders: we are in spite of our ignominious loss earlier this week!
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
vs Barcaquote:Yes, and that gives them some bragging rights, but I reckon that was a one off. Barca are beatable but not by that margin again.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Watching Barcelona is quite weird, as they start the 'carousel', and you start to feel mesmerized, God knows what the defenders feel like. But after a bit, it also seems a bit sterile, but I suppose then they lay on a killing pass.
But then Bayern showed the way last year - 7-0, wasn't it, (aggregate)?
quote:Just goes to show that that if you get chances, you have to score goals. Same thing happened at Spurs a couple of weeks ago. We were the better side, couldn't score, got beaten 1-0.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Sorry about that Sioni. I thought your lads were worth a point today.
quote:I wouldn't go that far. We were all over you for the vast majority of the second half. But you did defend very well indeed, and for that I think a draw would've been fair.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
We were the better side...
quote:Fergie Time!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
When the Mancs play like that you realise that Alex Ferguson's timing was impeccable.
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quote:Ah, 4-2-3-1 is where it's at these days! Interchanging forwards and a double pivot in midfield. Something like that...
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Looking forward to a good match today with Spurs. Was P.E. coach about a week and a half ago: taught the young lads and lasses all about the 4-4-2 formation and yellow cards...
quote:Unfortunately it was just torture to be endured, though I watched the second half over a food Irish lunch at the local Man City pub: the real Englishman sitting next to me allowed as that he did not like the Mancs sides either, being a Chelsea supporter!
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
You see the game, Sir Kevin?
quote:On the basis of the last six weeks none of the other contenders seem to want it much. If qualification for the Champions League was to simply be champions, then they might be trying harder.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Apparently the league is now Liverpool's to lose. I despair.
quote:And there's a realistic chance (I think!) of Southampton finishing ahead of Moyes' lot.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Apparently the league is now Liverpool's to lose. I despair.
quote:Most of Surrey and Cheshire I imagine.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So, anyone else watching the Manc derby tonight?
quote:Honestly, I rather suspect it isn't. I think City will get a result at Anfield (a draw would be good enough for them) and I think they will be more consistent than Chelsea against lower-table opposition. The title's staying in Manchester this year.
Originally posted by pjl:
Going to be a tight run in for the title.
quote:I hope you are wrong. I have tickets for this match and it will be Junior Whale's introduction to Anfield. But looking at the relative merits of both teams' attack and defence I fear a 7-6 victory to City might be on the cards.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I think City will get a result at Anfield (a draw would be good enough for them)
quote:Bring it on!
The race for second might be pretty tight though.
quote:Actually, since City have a game in hand, they could lose at Anfield and still be in pole position.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:Honestly, I rather suspect it isn't. I think City will get a result at Anfield (a draw would be good enough for them) and I think they will be more consistent than Chelsea against lower-table opposition. The title's staying in Manchester this year.
Originally posted by pjl:
Going to be a tight run in for the title.
The race for second might be pretty tight though.
quote:Everton start what? Playing like David Moyes is still in charge?
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Kevin, for Spurs to climb to fourth they themselves would have to stop effing up and hope Everton start.
quote:Sorry, just saw this:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I went to DC United's home opener when I was visiting a couple of weeks ago. Very pleasant spring weather, just a little nip in the air. United were woeful, but the refereeing was atrocious. Am I right in thinking that the league has a dispute with the refereeing union and so they've had to draft replacements in from various far-flung parts of central and southern America? That might explain it.
quote:Both Merseyside teams look interested!
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I'm not sure anyone wants to win the league this year.
quote:Aha, an Everton fan - tell me what you make of Roberto Martinez, would you? I thought Everton would struggle due to Martinez not being able to coach and organise a good defence at Wigan. But from what I've seen he's transformed Everton style-wise and retained their defensive qualities; perhaps at Wigan he was hamstrung by the relative lack of funds available.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Ideally Everton will get the former, so we can make serious bids for Lukaku, Barry and Deulofeu (sp?), and Manure the Europa Cup spot, so they will have fixture overload next year.
quote:Well, given he would have had to deal with an aging squad and one with some less than successful buys from previous seasons, I would suggest we would probably have been relegated by now. But under Sir David (I'm used to writing "the manager of Manchester United, sir...") Moyes we stand a chance of (a) winning the European Cup and (b) remaining in the Premiership.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Makes me wonder how Martinez would be getting on at Man U if they'd gone for him rather than Moyes...
quote:That evil rat bastard AVB ruined our side by transferring Mr. Bale to what is arguably the world's greatest football side! Thank God, it's not Arsenal in 1st: one of my best friends at school is a Goonie!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Sorry Sir Kevin, Spurs to finish seventh.
quote:I think it was Daniel Levy who did that, not AVB.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
That evil rat bastard AVB ruined our side by transferring Mr. Bale to what is arguably the world's greatest football side!
quote:Eh? Are you saying you think Martinez would be doing significantly worse than Moyes is with that ageing squad and the less than successful previous transfers?
Originally posted by deano:
Well, given [Martinez] would have had to deal with an aging squad and one with some less than successful buys from previous seasons, I would suggest we would probably have been relegated by now.
quote:AVB, who had given the side a great start to the season weeks earlier, did not seem to have complained or even advised his bosses!
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I think it was Daniel Levy who did (the transfer) not AVB.
quote:I'm looking forward to going to my first Whitecaps match sometime this season - assuming I can sort out ferries etc to get there. Watched both home matches live on TV; they look good - even with the ancient Kenny Miller and Nigel Reo-Coker in the team.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I went to DC United's home opener when I was visiting a couple of weeks ago. Very pleasant spring weather, just a little nip in the air. United were woeful, but the refereeing was atrocious. Am I right in thinking that the league has a dispute with the refereeing union and so they've had to draft replacements in from various far-flung parts of central and southern America? That might explain it.
quote:Quite. In almost any other season, Martinez would be a shoo-in for manager of the season. Just his bad luck that (whatever happens in the next 6 matches) Brendan Rogers is undeniably manager of the season (and probably the decade) for what he has done at Liverpool this season.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Hasn't Martinez made his own, very positive mark at Everton really quickly, whereas Moyes at Man U has presided over a shockingly rapid transition from feared opponents to a team that others fancy they can get something from?
quote:Oh give me a break. He's got the two in form strikers in the league, and any manager could make them look good. The midfield is so-so. But the area where arguably the manager can make the biggest impact is organizing the defence, and Liverpool's back four are absolutely pony. They shipped three goals to Cardiff the other week. Three goals! To relegation-certainties Cardiff!! So Rodgers isn't good: he's just got lucky.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Just his bad luck that (whatever happens in the next 6 matches) Brendan Rogers is undeniably manager of the season (and probably the decade) for what he has done at Liverpool this season.
quote:I get what you mean, but two things in response: in Rodgers' time as manager, several Liverpool players have notably improved - in particular Sturridge, Henderson, Flanagan, Sterling. Also, Suarez seems fully committed to the Liverpool cause this season and remarkably free of cannibalistic tendencies. Rodgers is making his players better.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Oh give me a break. [Brendan Rodgers has] got the two in form strikers in the league, and any manager could make them look good. The midfield is so-so. But the area where arguably the manager can make the biggest impact is organizing the defence, and Liverpool's back four are absolutely pony. They shipped three goals to Cardiff the other week. Three goals! To relegation-certainties Cardiff!! So Rodgers isn't good: he's just got lucky.
quote:An awfully long way upthread (possibly on the 2013 football thread) there were suggestions that Everton would be at the other end of the table as a result of Martinez messing around with the team. He's done what I hoped and you mention, namely to keep the defence pretty much intact and improve play upfield, thanks as much as anything to making Barkley central to the team and some very smart loan signings.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:Aha, an Everton fan - tell me what you make of Roberto Martinez, would you? I thought Everton would struggle due to Martinez not being able to coach and organise a good defence at Wigan. But from what I've seen he's transformed Everton style-wise and retained their defensive qualities; perhaps at Wigan he was hamstrung by the relative lack of funds available.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Ideally Everton will get the former, so we can make serious bids for Lukaku, Barry and Deulofeu (sp?), and Manure the Europa Cup spot, so they will have fixture overload next year.
Makes me wonder how Martinez would be getting on at Man U if they'd gone for him rather than Moyes...
quote:There's been some discussion of the MLS and the officiating in particular already. Various of us follow teams. So have at it. :-)
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I don't know if it's worth trying to talk about MLS...
quote:Sorry haven't got back sooner.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:Eh? Are you saying you think Martinez would be doing significantly worse than Moyes is with that ageing squad and the less than successful previous transfers?
Originally posted by deano:
Well, given [Martinez] would have had to deal with an aging squad and one with some less than successful buys from previous seasons, I would suggest we would probably have been relegated by now.
Hasn't Martinez made his own, very positive mark at Everton really quickly, whereas Moyes at Man U has presided over a shockingly rapid transition from feared opponents to a team that others fancy they can get something from?
quote:Hmm, well Suárez works more or less straight out of the box, but how many was Sturridge scoring per season at Chelsea? The midfield could be improved but is miles better than under Dalglish despite fielding largely the same players. The defence has relatively declined but it's also suffered extensive injuries plus the loss of Reina and Carragher, who as keeper and vice captain were effectively its NCO's (ok the loss of Reina was Rodgers' decision but even so).
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:Oh give me a break. He's got the two in form strikers in the league, and any manager could make them look good. The midfield is so-so. But the area where arguably the manager can make the biggest impact is organizing the defence, and Liverpool's back four are absolutely pony. They shipped three goals to Cardiff the other week. Three goals! To relegation-certainties Cardiff!! So Rodgers isn't good: he's just got lucky.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Just his bad luck that (whatever happens in the next 6 matches) Brendan Rogers is undeniably manager of the season (and probably the decade) for what he has done at Liverpool this season.
quote:Oh yes, fallen majestically to nothing…
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
And by your logic, Moyes inherited a team who won the league by miles, so given that the playing staff is essentially the same at Old Trafford, they should be walking it again. Evidence suggests otherwise. And United have changed from a basically attacking, proactive team into a basically reactive team. How the mighty fall!
quote:You'd really accept that? Fifth place, if you finish the season well? With the same squad (plus Fellaini and Mata) that won the League at a canter last season? How the mighty have fallen...
Originally posted by deano:
It’s football and nothing is certain except that a fifth place finish isn’t impossible and won’t be a bad effort with probably the oldest squad in the PL (certainly of the top half dozen teams), a significant change of manager, and a bad run of injuries for quite a few senior players.
I’ll take that for this season.
quote:Yep. Serously, with the we-hate-man-yoo-glasses removed, how many people actually, truly believed a change of manager from Sir Alex Ferguson would be a seamless smooth transition? He was Manchaster United and whoever followed him would have very big boots to fill.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:You'd really accept that? Fifth place, if you finish the season well? With the same squad (plus Fellaini and Mata) that won the League at a canter last season? How the mighty have fallen...
Originally posted by deano:
It’s football and nothing is certain except that a fifth place finish isn’t impossible and won’t be a bad effort with probably the oldest squad in the PL (certainly of the top half dozen teams), a significant change of manager, and a bad run of injuries for quite a few senior players.
I’ll take that for this season.
quote:Well, I'm old enough to remember that banners at Old Trafford are not new, nor do I consider it a "plummet"...
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I agree, deano, that there was always going to be a dip from the heights that Fergie hauled Man Utd to. It's the extent of the dip, nay plummet, that has surprised me and I don't share your expectation that it'll all be much better next season. Moyes has clearly shown himself to be not adequate for the task, IMO.
quote:From Wikipedia
Following this and an early season run of six defeats and two draws in eight games, a banner declaring "Three years of excuses and it's still crap ... ta-ra Fergie." was displayed at Old Trafford, and many journalists and supporters called for Ferguson to be sacked.[51][52] Ferguson later described December 1989 as "the darkest period [he had] ever suffered in the game", as United ended the decade just outside the relegation zone.
quote:Ahem... well it will be a big ask, but it's a game of two halves and at the end of the day it's a game of chance anyway and strange, miracoulous things do happen... Brian.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
We've done it before,
We've done it beefooooooooorrre,
Champions of Europe,
We've done it before.
Get in there Chelsea!! What a game.
Anyone think Ya-nigh-tid will be able to pull of something similar in Munich?
quote:So I take it he's what Danny Welbeck could be if he only upped his ball-handling skills, then.
Originally posted by deano:
Not only is he brilliant on the ball, he also dives very well, which is another string to his bow!!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Nah, he's not in the same class. Rooney is getting better though. It was a nice irony to see Schweinsteiger banned when he fouled Our Wayne.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:So I take it he's what Danny Welbeck could be if he only upped his ball-handling skills, then.
Originally posted by deano:
Not only is he brilliant on the ball, he also dives very well, which is another string to his bow!!
quote:Me too.
Originally posted by deano:
I reckon Chelsea made a big mistake in getting rid of him.
quote:I actually think that this isn't as big an advantage as you make out. Watching Bayern play two legs against United, I have to say I wasn't impressed. We've shown in the past that we know how to handle the Pep/Barca tikka-takka and that was Bayern all over. I would really have fancied our chances against them.
Originally posted by deano:
Looks like Chelsea have had a slice of luck in the European Cup draw. They've got Athletico Madrid, the jammy sods.
quote:I've been following this saga as it's been developing. I can see arguments both ways, but I think, at the end of the day, that it is better if he is allowed to play. The obvious counter-argument is, of course, the possibility for a parent club to exert pressure on their loanee to have a "bad game" just when it matters. But Courtois' relationship with Chelsea has been a little strained for a while, so I think there may be a few twists in this tale yet.
Originally posted by deano:
EUFA have also said Thibaut Courtois - who is on loan from Chelsea to AM - can play and said any private contract between the club is "null, void and unenforcable".
quote:No, the terms of his loan agreement is that it was for the full season with no option of recall.
Originally posted by deano:
I suppose Chelsea have the option of recalling him as needed to play in the Chelsea team.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:Sorry Sir K. They beat West Ham last night (15th April) to go ahead of Everton.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Thank God, Arsenal are no longer in the top four!
quote:Thank you for restoring normality. For a moment I feared we'd slipped into a parallel world where the scum won.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:Sorry Sir K. They beat West Ham last night (15th April) to go ahead of Everton.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Thank God, Arsenal are no longer in the top four!
quote:Tony Pulis, miracle worker... Shame, as I'd really quite like to see Everton finish fourth. I'm a big fan of Martinez.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Oh. Shit.
Losing at home to Palace?
quote:Considering where they were when he took over, Pulis has done an amazing job. I hated the style of football he produced at Stoke, but there is no denying that he is effective.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Tony Pulis, miracle worker... Shame, as I'd really quite like to see Everton finish fourth. I'm a big fan of Martinez.
The other result was good for me, being a Liverpool fan. ISTM a draw with Chelsea would now probably be good enough for Liverpool, seeing as Man City are six points further back with just one game in hand. Rodgers taking them from seventh last season to winning the Prem this season would be a stunning achievement, IMO!
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Yeah, good times for Merseyside football! Two excellent, forward-thinking young managers, and two fine teams. My main team, Southampton, are also very much on the up...
It's okay to support two Premier League teams, right?!
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quote:Hmm, interesting. I kind of hope Mourinho does go for it at Anfield rather than parking the bus (love that phrase!) and prioritising the Champions League. I do fancy Liverpool's chances of winning on the counter-attack.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
This makes Chelsea's visit to Anfield very interesting. Liverpool would be content with a draw. Chelsea know that a win would give them the upper hand - but equally, a defeat means that they lose almost all hope of catching Liverpool. Do they dare play for a win and leave themselves open to the Liverpool counter-attack machine? Or does Mourinho park the bus and hope to frustrate Liverpool into a mistake?
quote:SHITE! I rather have a wee bit of an affinity for Everton: Apparently, they have a keeper from the US. This bloke I spoke with at a trade show said one of his mates at school is in that job.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:Sorry Sir K. They beat West Ham last night (15th April) to go ahead of Everton.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Thank God, Arsenal are no longer in the top four!
quote:They're saying Sturridge might even be fit for this weekend, so I expect he'll be okay for the visit of your lot.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
And we have the added advantage that a couple of our in-form players are cup-tied from the Champions' League and will therefore be nice and fresh come our trip to Anfield. I honestly expect Suarez to disappear into Matić's back pocket for the full ninety minutes. And Henderson will be suspended, and I think Danny Boy is out with an injury (although I may have that wrong). And do you honestly think that Stevie Me can keep up with the pace of Hazard and Willian? That's a big ask.
Unless Liverpool are pulling the wool over our eyes, of course...![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
quote:Yikes. Wonder who we'll all look back on in five years' time in the same way. Aha, a couple of seconds' thought reveals to me that the answer is clearly Andros Townsend.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Yeah, he had one good season for them, passed the ball around nicely, and was briefly England's Next Best Hope™.
quote:Adam was never England's Next Best Hope™. He is Scottish and he wasn't even their best hope.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Yeah, he had one good season for them, passed the ball around nicely, and was briefly England's Next Best Hope™. Then he was bought by Liverpool and they put him back in touch with his Neanderthal roots. Now he's just a thug.
quote:Ooops!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Adam was never England's Next Best Hope™. He is Scottish and he wasn't even their best hope.
quote:Full-backs do get criminally ignored, don't they? Maybe Southampton will change that with Shaw (having a great game today, BBC Radio Solent are saying), Clyne and Chambers!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
As for player of the year isn't Seamus Coleman worth a call? Not much chance of that though as just four defenders and two goalkeepers have been player of the year, in 40 years, and none of them were full-backs.
quote:By my calculations it doesn't make much difference. Assuming all top three teams win all their other games: if Liverpool win or draw against Chelsea, they win the league, and if they lose, City win on goal difference. Which was the situation before the weekend as well.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Have Sunderland just, in effect, gifted the title to Liverpool?
quote:Not with Tony Pulis in charge they won't be!
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
As for Palace - they're now mathematically safe from relegation so I fully expect them to mentally be on the beach from here on in.
quote:But he looked utterly overawed by the challenge! Managing a team with limited finances and limited ambition (albeit higher than most teams') is totally different from managing one of the biggest clubs in the world, and Moyes looked (IMO) totally unsuited to the latter role. He talked and acted as if Man U were the new upstarts seeking to hang on to the coat-tails of the big boys like Chelsea and Man City. Man U, last season's champions by some distance, lest we forget...
Originally posted by deano:
I think it was a poor decision. As far as I'm concerned Moyes was the right man for the job but he should have been given two or three seasons. You don't become a bad manager overnight and he was far from a bad manager.
quote:In principle, I agree, and it can work in practice if you're talking about one or two players (although if said player is David Beckham, it still takes serious courage to hoof them out). But what do you do if half the team is not on board with the manager's approach and tactics? Ship out the lot of them and rebuild, or pay off the manager and try again? ISTM the latter is always likely to make more sense.
Originally posted by deano:
Some say he lost the dressing room, to which I say well get rid of those players. Ferguson never stood for any player thinking they were bigger than the manager; Keane, Beckham, Ronaldo, Hughes and quite a few others all thought they could bring player-power to bear but Ferguson quite rightly got rid of them. Moyes needed the chance to do the same. The club is bigger than the manager and the manager should be bigger than the players.
quote:My view is that many in the dressing room are there on borrowed time: some are past it, some aren't ever going to make it and some look lost now that SAF is gone. Many went to MUFC entirely because of him so any change would be a wrench. Moyes could have disposed of the has-beens (Evra, Young, Carrick, Ferdinand) and never-will-bes (Cleverley, Smalling, Welbeck) but that wouldn't have left much. I reckon they will have to spend about £150 million if they want to win anything next year.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:In principle, I agree, and it can work in practice if you're talking about one or two players (although if said player is David Beckham, it still takes serious courage to hoof them out). But what do you do if half the team is not on board with the manager's approach and tactics? Ship out the lot of them and rebuild, or pay off the manager and try again? ISTM the latter is always likely to make more sense.
Originally posted by deano:
Some say he lost the dressing room, to which I say well get rid of those players. Ferguson never stood for any player thinking they were bigger than the manager; Keane, Beckham, Ronaldo, Hughes and quite a few others all thought they could bring player-power to bear but Ferguson quite rightly got rid of them. Moyes needed the chance to do the same. The club is bigger than the manager and the manager should be bigger than the players.
quote:Given that the Glaziers only seem to be interested in taking money out of the club, and given that shipping a load of players out necessitates spending money to replace them, I rather doubt that this was an acceptable option to them.
Originally posted by deano:
Some say he lost the dressing room, to which I say well get rid of those players. Ferguson never stood for any player thinking they were bigger than the manager; Keane, Beckham, Ronaldo, Hughes and quite a few others all thought they could bring player-power to bear but Ferguson quite rightly got rid of them. Moyes needed the chance to do the same. The club is bigger than the manager and the manager should be bigger than the players.
quote:It's usually a huge cock-up, as the legend casts a huge shadow - I remember when Busby left, and there were a series of managers, beginning with Wilf McGuiness.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
It all raises a really interesting question, I think. How to follow a legend. As the owners, do you try to find a natural successor in the image of the departed great, or someone who will make their own clear mark; and as the successor, do you adopt a 'steady as she goes' approach or deliberately distance yourself from the one whose big shoes you are trying to fill?
quote:When you are hired to take over a core of players who just won the title by 11 points, you are not being hired to rebuild over two or three years. The team is hiring you to win now, because it knows that the players it currently has are more than capable of it. Those expectations are probably unfair, but that was what Moyes stepped into. At least the next guy has lower expectations to work with, and might be given a little time to do something new.
Originally posted by deano:
I think it was a poor decision. As far as I'm concerned Moyes was the right man for the job but he should have been given two or three seasons. You don't become a bad manager overnight and he was far from a bad manager.
quote:Well, this is the answer, I think. You have a period of hangover and mourning, when everybody is stumbling around, looking whey-faced and not performing. This can go on a long time of course.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
It's similar in politics: Look at the Tories after Thatcher and Labour after Blair. I'm not sure there is a right answer, to be honest.
quote:Oh yes, it's certainly very difficult. I don't have an answer, really, just that succession planning surely requires significant humility and willingness to delegate, on the part of the legend whose time is coming to an end. And humility doesn't often go with being a legend...
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
It's similar in politics: Look at the Tories after Thatcher and Labour after Blair. I'm not sure there is a right answer, to be honest.
quote:If you want a mercenary manager who has no concept of loyalty and long-term project then, sure, you'll be able to get who you want by offering them sufficient ££££££££. Just like you got mercenary, selfish Rooney to commit for another 5 years by offering him £300,000 a week. What a good deal that was... for Mr Rooney, who will be knackered, overweight and way past his best come the 4th and 5th years of that deal.
Originally posted by deano:
Anyway, somebody out there in football land is going to be pissed off when we steal their manager, because let's face it, when Manchester United comes knocking on your door with a contract you don't say no.
quote:How sad.
Originally posted by deano:
Personally I hope that we pick the right man for the right reason, and that reason is of course to piss off another Premiership club... Of course there are many positive things about Guardiola and Mourinho, but I prefer to focus on the pain it will cause the "donor" club.
Don't you want the person who'll do the best job for your club? Genuine question, who do you think the best person for Man U (and not for the pain it will cause the "donor" club) would be? You can't have Pochettino, by the way! /Southampton fan who's rather nervous about all these managerial vacancies at top clubs.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Personally I hope that we pick the right man for the right reason, and that reason is of course to piss off another Premiership club, and for that reason I hope we go knocking on the Special One's door! I mean he's got to be thinking that if he turns us down he'll never get another chance, and Abramovich will get tired of him sooner or later, so why not make the move now?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:So, just to clarify, you don't think he's knackered, overweight, and way past his best already?
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin
... Mr Rooney, who will be knackered, overweight and way past his best come the 4th and 5th years of that deal.
quote:Yes, I think some MU fans are in dreamland. We had a golden age, and hopefully everybody had a great time. But we are unlikely to have another one. So a bit of modesty might be in order, but then when did football fans ever indulge in that? I wouldn't be surprised if next year is no better, actually, no matter who the manager is.
Originally posted by JFH:
Frankly, I don't think a club finishing seventh could get any of Mourinho or Guardiola. Not with the meagre means provided by Glazier's financial model. Not with the meagre squad left behind by Moyes. Not without the Champions League motivation.
Think of it this way: which top managers could you see signing on for AC Milan, Lazio or Parma at present? Man U may be the world's most well-known club, but those things change quickly and help little when all the other things go against them. So what you're looking at is a situation very similar to Liverpool following Rafa Benitez's leave, and what's arguably a much weaker squad with much higher expectations, both by local fans and global ones.
Trust me, it won't take much for Korean and other Asian fans, providing much appreciated revenue and branding, to switch to City jerseys if that's the way success is going. Which is why success, the main sales point of Man U globally over the last 20 years, is an unreliable source of income.
quote:I was being charitable.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:So, just to clarify, you don't think he's knackered, overweight, and way past his best already?
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin
... Mr Rooney, who will be knackered, overweight and way past his best come the 4th and 5th years of that deal.
quote:Agreed. I think you and JFH are right about the weakness of the Man U squad, which has been an issue for a few years - one that was covered over by the genius and iron will of Sir Alex. It pains me to say this, but the failure of Moyes just confirms Fergie's status as a legend of world soccer.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wouldn't be surprised if next year is no better, actually, no matter who the manager is.
quote:Absolutely! Mr Bug supports Southampton, which means I have to follow them too. (My car is red because I wasn't allowed to buy a blue one!)But I'm a Liverpool fan. Mainly because we go every year for the International Beatle Week and I love the city. It's a fabulous place.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Yeah, good times for Merseyside football! Two excellent, forward-thinking young managers, and two fine teams. My main team, Southampton, are also very much on the up...
It's okay to support two Premier League teams, right?!
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:Oh yes, I remeember that match. If I remember correctly we went on to do the double that season.
Originally posted by Starbug:
quote:Absolutely! Mr Bug supports Southampton, which means I have to follow them too. (My car is red because I wasn't allowed to buy a blue one!)But I'm a Liverpool fan. Mainly because we go every year for the International Beatle Week and I love the city. It's a fabulous place.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Yeah, good times for Merseyside football! Two excellent, forward-thinking young managers, and two fine teams. My main team, Southampton, are also very much on the up...
It's okay to support two Premier League teams, right?!
I've walked round Anfield and been in the gift shop. I bought Mr Bug a waste paper basket which he won't use, for some reason. It's red, so I don't see why not..
I've also sat in the Kop, but not for a football match. It was a concert called the Liverpool Sound, with Paul McCartney as the headline act. Crikey, those seats are close together! We were packed in like sardines - when one person stood up, we all had to stand. I'm only 5ft 2, so goodness knows how the tall people cope.
On the subject of Man Utd, Mr Bug was at the Dell for this match: http://www.onthisfootballday.com/football-history/april-13-%E2%80%93-grey-day-for-united.php You may remember it for one of the worst footballing excuses in history.
quote:Ha ha, yes! My memory for this sort of thing isn't normally very good but I remember this because I was out on Southampton Common (very near The Dell, for those who don't know Southampton) and heard what sounded like three loud cheers but didn't believe Saints had scored three times. Turns out they had...
Originally posted by Starbug:
On the subject of Man Utd, Mr Bug was at the Dell for this match: http://www.onthisfootballday.com/football-history/april-13-%E2%80%93-grey-day-for-united.php You may remember it for one of the worst footballing excuses in history.
quote:I don't think that anybody knows really. There are people now pontificating that this was a huge error, but then you can dissect Moyes' performance a hundred different ways, and put your finger on one aspect as the killer.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
One more question to the United fans here:
How much do you think Moyes' decision to get rid of René Meulensteen and the rest of the coaching staff was a factor in your performance this season?
quote:It could easily go very wrong very quickly for them. Even with such a big name and reputation in world football, the financial constraints placed on the club by the Glazer purchase and the loss of revenue from the Champions League (and from finishing a good five places lower in the league than they'd have budgeted for - that's equivalent to about £10 million in lost prize money alone) will mean they won't be able to compete for the top players in terms of transfer fees or salaries. We're even seeing that right now - very few commentators list Man Utd as a likely transfer destination for the highest-quality players, and they're reduced to taking their rivals' cast-offs like Mata and clinging desperately to the dwindling number of big names they still have, like Rooney.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
We don't even know that it is Moyes' fault. I half-expect next year to be even worse - what do they do then? Sack the next manager? It's fun, fun, fun. I say, bring back Big Ron!
quote:Well Mourinho seems to disagree. Although it's possible he just thinks the season hasn't been sufficiently about him ....
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
You all seem to forget that playing two games a week, all high pressure, in the latter stages of important competitions is what Chelsea are used to these days.
quote:So are we talking Newcastle bad or Leeds bad?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE]It could easily go very wrong very quickly for them. Even with such a big name and reputation in world football, the financial constraints placed on the club by the Glazer purchase and the loss of revenue from the Champions League (and from finishing a good five places lower in the league than they'd have budgeted for - that's equivalent to about £10 million in lost prize money alone) will mean they won't be able to compete for the top players in terms of transfer fees or salaries. We're even seeing that right now - very few commentators list Man Utd as a likely transfer destination for the highest-quality players, and they're reduced to taking their rivals' cast-offs like Mata and clinging desperately to the dwindling number of big names they still have, like Rooney.
They can survive that for one season, but if it turns into two or three seasons then they could fall into a financial black hole from which recovery will be slow and painful. Without top-quality players getting to the Champions League is very hard, and without Champions League revenues getting the top players to sign for you is very hard. And to add to that, there are a number of very good clubs that can challenge for that fourth Champions League spot - most of whom are already well experienced at doing so on a lower budget and so won't be losing money hand over fist if they fail to make it in any particular season. United will.
quote:Probably Liverpool or Arsenal bad. Still high profile, qualifying for the Champions League too, but rarely winning anything.
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:So are we talking Newcastle bad or Leeds bad?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE]It could easily go very wrong very quickly for them. Even with such a big name and reputation in world football, the financial constraints placed on the club by the Glazer purchase and the loss of revenue from the Champions League (and from finishing a good five places lower in the league than they'd have budgeted for - that's equivalent to about £10 million in lost prize money alone) will mean they won't be able to compete for the top players in terms of transfer fees or salaries. We're even seeing that right now - very few commentators list Man Utd as a likely transfer destination for the highest-quality players, and they're reduced to taking their rivals' cast-offs like Mata and clinging desperately to the dwindling number of big names they still have, like Rooney.
They can survive that for one season, but if it turns into two or three seasons then they could fall into a financial black hole from which recovery will be slow and painful. Without top-quality players getting to the Champions League is very hard, and without Champions League revenues getting the top players to sign for you is very hard. And to add to that, there are a number of very good clubs that can challenge for that fourth Champions League spot - most of whom are already well experienced at doing so on a lower budget and so won't be losing money hand over fist if they fail to make it in any particular season. United will.
quote:Still, good win for Southampton yesterday.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
"This does not f**king slip now..."
Oh dear Stevie.
). And while it is always possible that City will drop one of the two games they get at home (Villa and West Ham), I'd say Liverpool's hope has to lie with Everton to beat City on Saturday.quote:Not quite player of the year but Coleman's in the PFA team of the year. Along with Southampton's Boy Wonder Luke Shaw.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
As for player of the year isn't Seamus Coleman worth a call? Not much chance of that though as just four defenders and two goalkeepers have been player of the year, in 40 years, and none of them were full-backs.
quote:These things cannot be rushed. And Atkinson added on plenty of time, so it all comes out in the wash anyway.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Still, Branislav Ivanović does tie his shoelaces so nicely. And it was heartening to see Chelsea taking the time to get their throw-ins just right, instead of rushing in like a band of hooligans.
quote:The votes would all have been cast beforehand but Coleman didn't look player of the year on Saturday! If you were to take player of the match then the best Everton player would probably be Naismith, at about twelfth.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:Not quite player of the year but Coleman's in the PFA team of the year. Along with Southampton's Boy Wonder Luke Shaw.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
As for player of the year isn't Seamus Coleman worth a call? Not much chance of that though as just four defenders and two goalkeepers have been player of the year, in 40 years, and none of them were full-backs.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:I know, I know. After twenty odd years of win this, win that, couple of doubles and the odd treble, next season will be a nice change of pace though.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So this is what United fans get up to when they don't have anything meaningful left to play for.
quote:While you're down there smelling the roses, you'll also catch a whiff of what makes them grow
Originally posted by deano:
Sometimes you have to get off the treadmill and smell the flowers.
quote:Thing is this is really a game between the evil geniuses, isn't it? Do you really think Simeone is going to go down anywhere near easily to an English side? Well, I mean, without a referee looking on?
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Mourinho is loving trolling the football world right now. Don't think he doesn't love the chance to crush the dreams of the two darling teams of the season in one week. I'm sure he will have his boys primed for the task. I'll be pulling for Atletico, but something tells me Chelsea is going to be ready tomorrow.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:Yeah. I think "Bugger" covers most options and we very nearly got an equaliser any number of ways. Still, we're in the Europa Cup, thanks to the changed qualification rules when sides qualifying by place also win cup competitions - and, in a way, we have Man City to thank for that!
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Thank you City!
(Sorry Sioni.)
quote:You enjoy yourselves. After twenty years of hurt it must be nice for you whilst we are going through this phase.
Originally posted by piglet:
I see that sacking Mr. Moyes doesn't seem to have done Man Ure much good ...
quote:The team that administers UEFA's Financial Fair Play Rules for a start. That might mean two clubs from one city.
Originally posted by deano:
Here's an intersting little game we can play. Let's start a list of which teams are going to be worried by Mr Van Gaal's cheque book between now and the end of September.
I'll start off...
Chelsea
Southampton
Everton
Spurs
PSG
Real Madrid
Barcalona
Juventus
Bayern Munich
Borussia Dortmund
Anyone want to add any more?
quote:I wonder what the players agents will be telling them though?
Originally posted by JFH:
Furthermore, you're listing Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich in there. Not bloody likely that they'll leave one of the world's best teams, in some of the world's coolest cities, for cold, rainy Manchester and the Europa League.
quote:Stop the hemorrhaging of good talent from my side! We should never have let Gareth go. After a fast start in a draw for first, the season was a complete and bloody disaster! (Yes, with real blood!)
Originally posted by deano:
Here's an intersting little game we can play. Let's start a list of which teams are going to be worried by Mr Van Gaal's cheque book between now and the end of September.
I'll start off...
Chelsea
Southampton
Everton
Spurs....
quote:You can't scare me - I support Ipswich Town and the only way we're likely to be playing Man U. is if they get relegated ...
Originally posted by deano:
quote:You enjoy yourselves ... There will be another twenty years of hurt for you coming up soon ...
Originally posted by piglet:
I see that sacking Mr. Moyes doesn't seem to have done Man Ure much good.
quote:Ha ha, that sounds like a complete disaster! And on the question of star players moving to Man U, IMO they'll only move if they think Man U will quickly get back into the Champions' League (let's see how next season goes...) or if they are mercenaries just following the money
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Won't that be nice? It'll be just like one of those toxic parishes where the new incumbent gets advised 'The old vicar wouldn't have done it like that', and 'The old vicar would have done it like this.'
quote:So are you coming up to Huddersfield next season.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:Yeah. I think "Bugger" covers most options
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Thank you City!
(Sorry Sioni.)
quote:Actually, it's looking remarkably likely that United won't even qualify for the Europa League. England gets three places in the competition, but as Arsenal have now confirmed qualification for the Champions League the FA Cup's Europa League place will go to Hull City. That means that the other two places will go to the teams finishing 5th and 6th in the league - Everton will definitely be one of those teams, and Spurs need only a point against Villa to be the other (and that's assuming United win both their remaining games!).
Originally posted by JFH:
"But the Europa League will be such a perfect follow-up to the Champions League final!"
.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:So we get to rest our squad next season. That will be nice as it will allow us to keep our players at the top of their game... whoever they are!
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Actually, it's looking remarkably likely that United won't even qualify for the Europa League. England gets three places in the competition, but as Arsenal have now confirmed qualification for the Champions League the FA Cup's Europa League place will go to Hull City. That means that the other two places will go to the teams finishing 5th and 6th in the league - Everton will definitely be one of those teams, and Spurs need only a point against Villa to be the other (and that's assuming United win both their remaining games!).
Originally posted by JFH:
"But the Europa League will be such a perfect follow-up to the Champions League final!"
Unless England gets one of the Fair Play places and United happen to be the highest-ranked side in the Premiership Fair Play League, United are almost certainly not going to be in Europe at all in 2014/15
quote:Well, you threw over £60 million at this season, and it didn't get you very far!
Originally posted by deano:
We can throw money at the problem, which isn't an option available to many teams, and we will do.
quote:That's not the Glaziers' MO though, is it? At least, I'm certainly under the impression that popular wisdom is that they are more keen to take money out of United than to put it in.
Originally posted by deano:
We can throw money at the problem, which isn't an option available to many teams, and we will do.
quote:Good grief, it's so tempting to make wild claims that Southampton will finish ahead of Man U next season, as long as we keep Lallana, Rodriguez and Shaw! Granted, that's a significant caveat...
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, you can probably go out and raid the Southamptons and Evertons of the world, but then you'll just end up with a team of the same overall ability as the Southamptons and Evertons of the world.
quote:With the best will in the world, "Nottingham Forest" and "Glory Days" don't go together! Even in their heyday under Brian Clough.
Originally posted by JFH:
I suspect you'll have to go back to post-Heysel days. Not sure about it before that. Possibly Nottingham Forest glory days as well, but my history of English football is a bit rusty.
quote:You're memory is right, they were a high-achieving side, and did all that, but these weren't glorious triumphs. Despite a spine of star players Forest always played methodical, pragmatic football, which got higher marks for technical merit than for artistic impression.
Originally posted by JFH:
Nottingham won the First Division in 77-78 after having been promoted the year before, that's what I was aiming at. The year after, they won the European Cup and became one of only two teams to have won it twice in a row, if my memory does not backstab me.
quote:My memory also claims that's the kind of play Everton had for ten years or so under David Moyes.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Despite a spine of star players Forest always played methodical, pragmatic football, which got higher marks for technical merit than for artistic impression.
quote:Awful, terrible, and should never even come close to being enacted. We need to be doing more to encourage and enable success at the grass roots of football, not trying to destroy the grass roots so we can replace them with a glorified Premiership Reserve League.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
On a different note, anyone got thoughts on Greg Dyke's new plan to save the England team?
quote:Good call, but we never had the star players and achieved little.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:My memory also claims that's the kind of play Everton had for ten years or so under David Moyes.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Despite a spine of star players Forest always played methodical, pragmatic football, which got higher marks for technical merit than for artistic impression.
quote:Everything has some merit, except incorporating reserve teams into the league pyramid. The last thing fringe Premier League players need, especially young ones, is lining up against conference teams, some of whom will take immense pleasure in kicking the kids off the park.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Awful, terrible, and should never even come close to being enacted. We need to be doing more to encourage and enable success at the grass roots of football, not trying to destroy the grass roots so we can replace them with a glorified Premiership Reserve League.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
On a different note, anyone got thoughts on Greg Dyke's new plan to save the England team?
quote:Really? Wow... Actually, Johnson for £18million (good grief), Sakho for about the same... Yeah, I see what you mean.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Liverpool's defence (by which I mean goalkeeper and four defenders) was the most expensive of all the top four.
quote:Never mind the price tag, what gives anyone the idea Glen Johnson is any kind of defender?
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:Really? Wow... Actually, Johnson for £18million (good grief), Sakho for about the same... Yeah, I see what you mean.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Liverpool's defence (by which I mean goalkeeper and four defenders) was the most expensive of all the top four.
quote:There's a reason Chelsea didn't hang onto him.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Never mind the price tag, what gives anyone the idea Glen Johnson is any kind of defender?
quote:Lots of nice long diplomatic words in that, but I think Marvin managed to translate him quite accurately:
Shaun Harvey, the Football League's chief executive, said: "It is our view that the objective of increasing the number of quality English players is laudable and while the report may not contain a solution that is acceptable at the current time, we should continue to engage with the commission to establish whether there is a solution that meets its stated objective but does not leave the Football League carrying a disproportionate or unreasonable burden."
quote:
Awful, terrible, and should never even come close to being enacted.
quote:No doubt, they have some of the world's greatest talents signed to the club in order that no one else may have them. As it happens, one of them is playing the Champions League final this year, and leaving as soon as his contract allows as he was never really signed to play for Chelsea anytime soon anyway.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Oh, and by the way, Chelsea have won the FA Youth cup three times in the last five years. Have that for youth development.
quote:Hey, FWIW I agree Liverpool's financial management has been shite over the past few years. But ISTM more accurate to say Rodgers has achieved success despite his predecessor's profligacy, rather than because of it ...
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Fine. If you're desperate to carry the moral virtue of thriftiness then be my guest. You can fight it out with Arsenal for the Balance Sheet Trophy. Like I said before: it doesn't actually count for anything and we'll see what UEFA make of it next year.
quote:In the words of the Beatles song, it's going to be a 'Long Long Long' transfer season for Southampton!
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Ooh, brave move from Mr Hodgson - Cole out and Shaw in the England World Cup squad apparently. Here is the BBC's report. Any thoughts, Shippies?
quote:No, it was about the general Gooner - I'd forgotten that you supported them - so it wasn't personal.
Originally posted by JFH:
I'm not sure if your remarks about balance sheets were aimed at me - I'm an Arsenal supporter myself, when it comes to English football.
quote:You* can't have him! Or him. Or him either. Okay, you can have him if you're willing to pay £27million and he's willing to take a chance that your shambolic season was just a blip.
Originally posted by Starbug:
In the words of the Beatles song, it's going to be a 'Long Long Long' transfer season for Southampton!
quote:There are days when I forget it myself. I think the key part is that the predictability of it all makes talking about Arsenal rather futile, really.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:No, it was about the general Gooner - I'd forgotten that you supported them - so it wasn't personal.
Originally posted by JFH:
I'm not sure if your remarks about balance sheets were aimed at me - I'm an Arsenal supporter myself, when it comes to English football.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
quote:Shaw's way better for £27m than, say, Fellaini (who is now worth about £2.7m). For one thing Man Utd need a new left-back (among other things) and there's always a chance that he could do what another former Southampton left-back did. You know, the Welsh one who is now at Real Madrid.
Originally posted by JFH:
Thing about Shaw is that he's a great left back, 18 years old, and with a seemingly great personality. Those are hard to come by and that money could well be worth it if he stays for 10 years, which Shaw seems to be the kind of character to do. Those 10 years could well turn into 20 with a little luck, and that's money very well spent. So out of all the possible affairs out there, I think Shaw is one of few to actually possibly be worth those kind of sums. Sadly, because Man U seem to get him now, at least for one or two seasons ahead. Then again, if they continue their journey to the middle, their situation may be the same as for Southampton soon enough.
quote:The skills that Man City displayed cannot simply be down to money. The players are bought as individuals, but they played as a team. Now how do you think that level of teamwork was bought?
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Boooo! Yes, you can buy the Premiership title.
quote:If my conclusion was somewhat "simplistic" then so is yours. You can't compete against such teams on tuppence even if you can get them to play as a team. Money most certainly is the deciding factor because that's how you aquire the best players. FFP should not only apply to European competitions (though even when they are flouted, they only get a slap on the wrist) but to domestic competitions too. The right conclusion most definitely is that if you're an Arab oil baron or Russian oligarch all tvey have to do is pump enough money into a team and they'll eventually get what they want.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:The skills that Man City displayed cannot simply be down to money. The players are bought as individuals, but they played as a team. Now how do you think that level of teamwork was bought?
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Boooo! Yes, you can buy the Premiership title.
The truth is, it wasn't. Yes, of course money is a factor, as all the clubs know, but to say that the title was bought is rather simplistic (to put it politely). What is stopping other clubs learning to play like City? Money? I don't think so. It doesn't cost money for two healthy men to pass a ball to each other, does it?
quote:IIRC, the Premier League also has its own variation of FFP which applies domestically. It's not as stringent as UEFA's version though.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
FFP should not only apply to European competitions (though even when they are flouted, they only get a slap on the wrist) but to domestic competitions too.
quote:Yes, you need money to buy the best players. It's called the free market.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
If my conclusion was somewhat "simplistic" then so is yours. You can't compete against such teams on tuppence even if you can get them to play as a team. Money most certainly is the deciding factor because that's how you aquire the best players. FFP should not only apply to European competitions (though even when they are flouted, they only get a slap on the wrist) but to domestic competitions too. The right conclusion most definitely is that if you're an Arab oil baron or Russian oligarch all tvey have to do is pump enough money into a team and they'll eventually get what they want.
quote:In a sporting context, I believe it's called the NFL.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What's the alternative? Communism?
quote:We have only two alternatives set before us. Either a free market, or communism. There are no other possibilities
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Yes, you need money to buy the best players. It's called the free market.
What's the alternative? Communism?
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I guess we can only go with the free market then...quote:(Even as a Chelsea supporter) I see where you're coming from and I'm behind your general point of view. The amount of money in football currently is ghastly, and the fact that most of it has gone into the pockets of players and agents is far from ideal too.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Bollocks! It's about a level playing field.
quote:The interesting question is who made the bid given that United do not currently have a manager ...
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
The Guardian are reporting that United have made a £27 million bid for Luke Shaw.
quote:Because when they do that, City comes along with a fat cheque for their club.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
After all, I am sure all the other players in the PL are as fit as City players, and so why can't they simply practise to obtain the same skills?
quote:Do we want to run a free market? As well as sugar daddies, it also gives us leveraged buyouts and people like the Glazers or Gillett & Hicks. It doesn't seem right that you can effectively buy a club with its own money, even though in practical terms it's no different from a mortgage on commercial premises.
We cannot run a free market and then moan when it doesn't go our way.
quote:I thought Ed Woodward was the guy in charge of that sort of thing at United these days.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:The interesting question is who made the bid given that United do not currently have a manager ...
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
The Guardian are reporting that United have made a £27 million bid for Luke Shaw.
quote:The last thing they're worried about is fairness across the board. The Financial Fair Play regulations have come in because they prevent any upstart little clubs from getting a super-rich oil sheik or Russian oligarch to pay for them to threaten the Big Clubs. It's all about making sure that the Real Madrids, Bayern Munichs and Manchester Uniteds stay at the top of the pile without any more Chelseas or Manchester Citys suddenly becoming rich enough to usurp their crowns.
Originally posted by JFH:
Etymological, I think when UEFA and FIFA, two of the world's most corrupt organizations, are beginning to think that the playing field might be unfair, I think it's fair to say that some of the conditions might not be optimal or provide people with even chances to win games and titles.
quote:More importantly, it's simply not possible for any old player to train really hard and become world-class. There's such a thing as natural talent, and you've either got it or you haven't.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:Because when they do that, City comes along with a fat cheque for their club.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
After all, I am sure all the other players in the PL are as fit as City players, and so why can't they simply practise to obtain the same skills?
quote:Well, do feel free to ridicule my view as much as you like, but I find it "frankly ridiculous" that the purchase of individual players - no matter how supposedly naturally talented - can magically morph into a successful team. You can have eleven really great players and a truly crap team, or you can achieve success by bringing out the best in individual players by teaching and training them to work as a team. Now given that the market is not for teams, but for individual players, then it follows logically that the teamwork required to be successful cannot be bought with money.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
More importantly, it's simply not possible for any old player to train really hard and become world-class. There's such a thing as natural talent, and you've either got it or you haven't.
EE's implication that the only reason Fabian Delph isn't as skilled a midfielder as Xavi is because he doesn't train as hard is, frankly, ridiculous.
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Just remember that tackles from behind and studs-up challenges are just as frowned upon in The Circus as they are on the football pitch....
Imaginary Friend,
Circus Host
quote:Allow me to present some hard data: the Premiership-era (so starting with the 92/93 season) final league positions of Manchester City. See if you can spot the point at which the club became ludicrously rich:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So the idea that you can just buy success is a rather slipshod argument.
quote:Because without that money Aguero wouldn't even have been playing for you!
Was Aguero's last gasp goal bought with money? How?
quote:Please define "shoestring budget".
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Are you arguing then that Man City and Chelsea with their current managers and coaching staff would have achieved the same amount of success on a shoestring budget?
quote:This table is from last year, but it shows the gap between the rich clubs and the less-rich ones. The median annual salary exenditure would appear to be £62m - less than half that of City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Liverpool.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:Please define "shoestring budget".
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Are you arguing then that Man City and Chelsea with their current managers and coaching staff would have achieved the same amount of success on a shoestring budget?
And is any team in the Premier League on such a budget?
quote:I would dispute it as well, because these days having big money only really buys you the ability to compete for the title against the other rich clubs.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Marvin -
I am not disputing that money is a factor. Of course it is, because of the operation of the free market. What I dispute is the claim that somehow City 'bought' the title, with the implication that it is bought in much the same way that someone could buy their driving licence off a corrupt examiner.
quote:Because one-off results can always happen. But over a whole season the teams that can afford to buy the best players will inevitably lose far fewer games against poorer teams than those that cannot.
I'll temper my language for fear of a yellow card - or worse - but really if people are going to make this kind of claim, then they ought to explain why City ever lose to 'poorer' teams.
quote:Sure. And if two dice can be rolled with the result of 12 once, that can happen two or three times. It's not very likely though.
If a 'poorer' team can beat City once, then they can do it twice, three times and more.
quote:If results don't lie, then explain the sudden marked improvement in City's league positions demonstrated in my earlier post.
And other 'poorer' teams can do it as well. QPR nearly won that game two years ago, therefore for most of the game the QPR players were superior to the City players. Sorry, but that is the truth, because results don't lie.
quote:What money has bought is a far better quality of player. Torquay United could attempt to play the same sort of attractive football as City, but you and I both know that without the players to pull it off they wouldn't get anywhere near the Premiership, let alone the title. And those players can only be acquired if the club has the financial resources to attract them.
But if money has 'bought' anything, it has 'bought' a certain attractive kind of football, and the most sensible response from other teams is to learn from it. Raising the bar might not be good for some teams (who refuse to adapt), but it is certainly good for the sport, and most importantly for the fans, who can actually enjoy watching a whole game instead of enduring the predictable hoofing the ball and Championship-style "football tennis" while patiently waiting for a goal.
quote:Well, let's look at your "training harder" solution in detail. During Rodgers' tenure at Liverpool, Suárez has gone from a £23m player to a £40m player, Sturridge is probably worth £20m instead of £12m, and Sterling is maybe £11m instead of free*. Which is testament to a lot of effort on the manager's and coaches' part. But City don't have to make that effort, because they can buy £40m players out of the box.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So the idea that you can just buy success is a rather slipshod argument.
quote:And if Mansour had decided to spend that money on West Ham United instead of Manchester City (the clubs were separated by a single point in the season before Mansour bought the club), then West Ham would in all probability be the ones with their hands on the trophy right now.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
City, I think, over a billion, under Mansour.
quote:Surely that happens all the time in Silicon Valley?
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You talk about the freemarket, but where else in the freemarket would a business be allowed to essentially work at a loss as Chelsea and Man City have?
quote:But wasn't this what Swansea did, that got them to 8th place two years ago or so?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What money has bought is a far better quality of player. Torquay United could attempt to play the same sort of attractive football as City, but you and I both know that without the players to pull it off they wouldn't get anywhere near the Premiership, let alone the title. And those players can only be acquired if the club has the financial resources to attract them.
quote:As a supporter of a team working within a salary cap structure, I would suggest any league think long and hard before it goes down that route.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I wouldn't be against a salary cap. It works fine in the NHL, for instance, and they still attract the best players.
And then there are the Koreans......
quote:I had to check back to make sure that really happened. Yes, yes it did.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So, it's the day of the FA Cup final. Formerly the central day in England's footballing calendar, now fighting for recognition with a million other things going on. Shame.
But come on Hull!
quote:My bet is on England to get to the quarters. I would also say that a Germany / Argentina final is my prediction.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So... The World Cup.
Thoughts, predictions, aspirations, random musings?
quote:Phil Jagielka. I'm not sure which toe though.
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Which England player do you suppose Suarez will bite first?
quote:Yep. I've not looked into it, but surely it'd be a good money-making strategy to bet against England (using UK-based bookies / exchanges), taking advantage of the irrationality of the England fanbase.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.
quote:You're probably right - but then as a Charlton fan I'm pretty used to irrationality. An interesting question has just occurred to me - are the fans who support England more fanatically those who support worse club teams?
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.
quote:I'd suggest that there is among "England fans" a substantial proportion who don't go for the football at all. A bit like the "Barmy Army", some of whom I'm sure think a cricket bat is a cross between a flying mammal and an insect.
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:You're probably right - but then as a Charlton fan I'm pretty used to irrationality. An interesting question has just occurred to me - are the fans who support England more fanatically those who support worse club teams?
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.
quote:Well so far they look good going forward but are a little suspect when it comes to defending. Croatia are counter attacking well.
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Pele doesn't seem to reckon much of Brazil's chances, though I wonder if England's chances could be improved if we start a thread in the Hell board entitled 'Snowball'.
quote:There's starting rough and then there is playing like Spain have tonight... They have been taken apart in the second half. It has been one of the best World Cup matches I have watched in a long time. RVP has been great - his header was something else and Robben looks like the player he was about 4/5 years ago. Quick and decisive.
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
True, but it wouldn't be the first time that a team started off a little rough in the opening games but became more dominant later. Brazil's group is not exactly a Group Of Death. It wouldn't surprise me if they are taking it easy here in the opening round.
quote:That's your pick for one of the semi finals then?
Originally posted by Tom Day:
....Any one else this side of the Atlantic staying up for the Japan / Iran game?
quote:I think Hodgson will be aware that Rooney scored 7 goals in the six qualifying games; that is bound to count in his favour, as also the assist for Saturday's goal. But it seems to me, either you play him in the centre, behind Sturridge, or drop him. To play him out on the left just does not work.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
quote:Neph said Colombia creamed Greece. Maybe I should find a recast.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I was very impressed with Colombia. They looked much stronger than Brazil, against a better opponent. (The weather in Manaus must be as bad as predicted--the England/Italy match looked like slow motion compared to Colombia/Greece).
quote:That leaves too many unanswered questions: B+.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:I think Hodgson will be aware that Rooney scored 7 goals in the six qualifying games; that is bound to count in his favour, as also the assist for Saturday's goal. But it seems to me, either you play him in the centre, behind Sturridge, or drop him. To play him out on the left just does not work.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
quote:No problems, I have the awful feeling he will still be in the side and Roy won't change things until it's too late (ie, when we'll need to beat Costa Rica handsomely while hoping that Italy beat Uruguay).
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, OK, I wasn't really answering the question, why should Rooney be in the team against Uruguay, I was explaining why he will be.
quote:
The England team visited an orphanage in Rio today. "It's heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope," said Jose, aged 6.
quote:He set up Sturridge's goal.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
quote:Judge for yourself I think it is the best goal I've seen so far this world cup - better than RVP's header.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Right, is anyone watching the Netherlands-Australia game? Was the Cahill goal as good as the BBC Radio 5 commentators made out? Robbie Savage has just had a When Harry Met Sally cafe moment...
quote:Overlapping is only possible if a) there's someone to overlap and b) you are confident that there is cover for your defensive work. We didn't have a lot of either.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
The end of this World Cup campaign will be an obvious point for Gerrard to retire, and I'll be surprised if he doesn't step down then. He'll see the writing on the wall, surely...
And yes, I thought Cahill had an excellent game, apart from being caught out for the second goal. Where was the movement off the ball, though; where were the overlapping runs from Baines and Johnson? I thought we were far too cautious until we got desperate and really started chasing the game. Sigh.
quote:Yes, there has been the sense at least of trying to do something different, even if it hasn't come off (although they didn't look so secure in that yesterday as they did against Italy - they didn't seem able to cope with the Uruguayans constantly pressing them and closing them down every time they got the ball, especially in the first half and first part of the second).
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
England lacked the same spark they had against Italy. Still, I'd feel twice as bad if it wasn't for the fact that England have the foundation of a potentially very good team. Hodgson could have easily gone with the same old same old but he showed balls. Respect!
). I think us fans need to adjust our expectations as well: we had a tough group and this was always a realistic possibility. There's no point running around like the sky's falling in when it happens. quote:Yes, I thought that the obsession with Rooney in the media obscured Gerard's obvious decline. He has become very slow, and poor at tackling. As a friend of mine said yesterday, the link-up play between Gerard and Suarez was awesome!
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I thought Gary was England's best player yesterday (although obviously I am biased.)
But the real issue for me is about Gerrard. When are we going to break the taboo and admit that he's not a very good captain, and he's past it as a player?
quote:Perhaps it's worth it for the Costa Rica game: the chances are we won't have anything to lose by that point in any case; but even if we do, could they realy do much worse then the more experienced players have?
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's tempting to just play the youngsters now, but maybe they are a bit naive.
quote:I think also most fans (soccer) are much more tuned into their local team than England. OK, every two years, people get enthusiastic about England, but you can't compare that with the week in, week out, following of a Premiership team, or in another league. I find all the talk of too many foreign players bizarre really. Fans want to see them.
Originally posted by Cod:
I agree that it is what we were primed to expect - rightly so, it seems. My hope is that it will provide some catalyst for the FA taking responsiblity for the grass roots game - which ultimately, one hopes, will generate players capable of forming an England side capable of standing comparison with the likes of Italy.
I'm not expectant, however. Nothing happened after the failure to qualify for Euro 2008 except that Steve McClaren was sacked.
It's the same in rugby, fwiw. England- more registered players than the rest of the world combined - one World Cup win. There is a curious phenomena of failure when it comes to English sports administration, albeit one that Olympics sports overcame.
quote:That might depend on whether Italy would prefer to face England or Uruguay later on.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Italy will draw one of those games, as they will start to coast.
quote:Such plans are already being worked on: The FA's proposed "League 3" will pit the best talent in the U21 teams of Premiership clubs against the top half of what is now the conference. The kids will get hacked to bits by seasoned journeymen playing on rubbish pitches with poor officiating. This will be perfect preparation for taking on the best in the world on the largest global stage. The future is bright!
Originally posted by Cod:
My hope is that it will provide some catalyst for the FA taking responsiblity for the grass roots game - which ultimately, one hopes, will generate players capable of forming an England side capable of standing comparison with the likes of Italy.
quote:At least Balotelli isn't a racist who head-butts referees and bites other players.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'd like England to continue, but they don't deserve to and how does one support any side with Balotelli in?
quote:I drew them in our sweepstake, so I'd win $310 if that happens...
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Soooo, Costa Rica for the Cup ... .
quote:Why not just copy some other, more successful, nearby country'smethods? There are a number to choose from.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:Such plans are already being worked on: The FA's proposed "League 3" will pit the best talent in the U21 teams of Premiership clubs against the top half of what is now the conference. The kids will get hacked to bits by seasoned journeymen playing on rubbish pitches with poor officiating. This will be perfect preparation for taking on the best in the world on the largest global stage. The future is bright!
Originally posted by Cod:
My hope is that it will provide some catalyst for the FA taking responsiblity for the grass roots game - which ultimately, one hopes, will generate players capable of forming an England side capable of standing comparison with the likes of Italy.
quote:I think that, at the end of the day, it comes down to coaching. (Not claiming this as an original point. Sioni has been making it for as long as I can remember, for instance.) More coaches, better coaches*, and more time for coaching. So, to the extent that this can be copied from Spain or Belgium then go for it. But I think the basic underlying points of the solution are really quite clear.
Originally posted by Cod:
Why not just copy some other, more successful, nearby country'smethods? There are a number to choose from.
There seems to be an unwritten rule that to work in English football you have to be very conservative and unintelligent.
quote:(The last time he played against my Spurs in 2013, he kicked the shite out of Gareth Bale's head and got away with it after likely bribing the officials to look the other way. Had he gotten the red card he deserved, Spurs likely would not have lost!)
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I hope Ballyotelli doesn't make the Italian team. It would be nice to see an English-speaking country do well!
quote:Yes, 3 teams all in the top 10 inevitably meant a tough battle.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Thanks orfeo for a measured view. That's been missing here and elsewhere about England's performance, as any match against a top-ten side is easily lose.
quote:SUPPLEMENT TO SECOND ADDENDUM:
Originally posted by orfeo:
SECOND ADDENDUM: Wikipedia just pointed out something a little remarkable. There's a continental effect so far. Of 12 games where a team from the Americas (whether South, Central or North) has played a team from outside the Americas, the American team has won 10 and only lost 2.
The only group going against trend is Group E, where France beat Honduras and Switzerland beat Ecuador. All the others have won against non-American opposition: Brazil, Mexico, Chile (2), Colombia (2), Costa Rica, Uruguay, Argentina and USA.
quote:The same way the USA get to the high teens. Back in April 2006 they were rated fourth, behind Brazil, the Czech Republic and the Netherlands! Mind you, Germany were rated 19th then: I think they drew the rankings out of a bag that day.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Yes, 3 teams all in the top 10 inevitably meant a tough battle.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Thanks orfeo for a measured view. That's been missing here and elsewhere about England's performance, as any match against a top-ten side is easily lose.
Although rankings don't tell you everything. How the hell GREECE ever made it to the top 10 (they're 12 now) is beyond me.
quote:I love that the Rooney brick has no hair.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Just because this amused me Brick by Brick version of the England v Uruguay game.
quote:England's inability to win against top international sides has been a fairly pronounced part of their world cup records with defeats by Spain in 1950, Uruguay in 1954 draws with Brazil and the USSR in 1958, followed by a subsequent defeat by the Soviets, a loss to Brazil in '62, to Brazil and West Germany in 1970, draws with West Germany and Spain in 1982, defeat to Argentina in '86, to Germany in 1990 (and we then lost the third place match to Italy) (England's much lauded trip to the Semis involved taking down titans such as Belgium and the mighty Cameroon, although to be fair they did draw with the Dutch in the group stages who humiliated them in Euro '98), to Argentina in '98, Brazil in 2002, Portugal in 2006 and Germany in 2010. Usually we managed to avoid taking on teams of the top rank until the quarters or round of 16. It just so happens that this time round we got them in the group stages.
Thanks orfeo for a measured view. That's been missing here and elsewhere about England's performance, as any match against a top-ten side is easily lose.
quote:You're 1 for 3. Bosnia got robbed, though in fact Nigeria did look like the better team today. The Germany/Ghana draw was the best possible result for the US, so I'm happy. And Argentina won without seeming very impressive, apart from Messi. This has been a very strange Cup, upsets all over.
Originally posted by orfeo:
ADDENDUM: Looking forward, I'm expecting Argentina, Germany and Bosnia to win today. I thought Bosnia was very impressive in a first-up loss. Mind you, I thought the same about England...
quote:This is presumably due to the climatic difference.
Originally posted by orfeo:
SECOND ADDENDUM: Wikipedia just pointed out something a little remarkable. There's a continental effect so far. Of 12 games where a team from the Americas (whether South, Central or North) has played a team from outside the Americas, the American team has won 10 and only lost 2.
The only group going against trend is Group E, where France beat Honduras and Switzerland beat Ecuador. All the others have won against non-American opposition: Brazil, Mexico, Chile (2), Colombia (2), Costa Rica, Uruguay, Argentina and USA.
quote:Yes. Over the years I have noticed that when the ball comes loose in the penalty box (e.g. after a corner), it's often a few particular strikers who knock it in from close range for a goal. They seem to have (a) a better ability than most to anticipate where the ball might go, and thus a better chance to be in right place at the right time (b) slightly quicker reactions than most that enable them to get to it first.
Originally posted by Cod:
I don't think that's quite fair. My view is that hitting the target requires a) accuracy and b) positioning. A huge number of Lineker's goals looked like simple tap-ins or point-blank headers. While Lineker probably had better service than most (Beardsley, Barnes, Waddle, Hoddle etc) he made it look easy, and Rooney sometimes does too.
quote:This was probably my least favourite day of the Cup so far, viewing-wise. Maybe I'm just getting tired from all the odd hours (although on the weekend I can spread it out more sensibly), or maybe it really was a poor day.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:You're 1 for 3. Bosnia got robbed, though in fact Nigeria did look like the better team today. The Germany/Ghana draw was the best possible result for the US, so I'm happy. And Argentina won without seeming very impressive, apart from Messi. This has been a very strange Cup, upsets all over.
Originally posted by orfeo:
ADDENDUM: Looking forward, I'm expecting Argentina, Germany and Bosnia to win today. I thought Bosnia was very impressive in a first-up loss. Mind you, I thought the same about England...
quote:Yes, I'm also interested to see if Belgium can live up to their billing as tournament dark horses after struggling past Algeria. USA-Portugal could well be fun but I think I'll give the other game a miss...
Originally posted by orfeo:
Don't have much idea about the next day's games. I'm expecting Algeria to park themselves in defence against South Korea. Portugal-USA will depend on which version of Portugal turns up. Belgium-Russia... Belgium is my second team (my first, really, as Australia never used to make the finals) but they were damn patchy the first game.
quote:Is it? I thought it would be better for Germany to win so Ghana would not get any points and the US would have less competition for being the second team to go through to the next round.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The Germany/Ghana draw was the best possible result for the US, so I'm happy.
quote:I hope you didn't give Korea-Algeria a miss!
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:Yes, I'm also interested to see if Belgium can live up to their billing as tournament dark horses after struggling past Algeria. USA-Portugal could well be fun but I think I'll give the other game a miss...
Originally posted by orfeo:
Don't have much idea about the next day's games. I'm expecting Algeria to park themselves in defence against South Korea. Portugal-USA will depend on which version of Portugal turns up. Belgium-Russia... Belgium is my second team (my first, really, as Australia never used to make the finals) but they were damn patchy the first game.
quote:A draw is fine. Beggars can't be choosers.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Going in, I said I'd be satisfied with a draw. I wasn't satisfied with that draw. Not that USA played badly at all, but there were too many sloppy passes in the midfield, and Cameron completely losing the plot five minutes in. I suppose they were all so fixated on Ronaldo that they forgot there were other forwards...
quote:Thank you.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Here is an explanation through the match against Germany.
quote:Given how young their team is, I would turn it around and say it's a mark in their favour that they're able to pull something out when it really matters. They stay composed under pressure.
Originally posted by orfeo:
1. Are Belgium going to be one of those teams that keeps doing just enough to win? Such a course has an honourable history, but they didn't exactly inspire confidence. A couple of players suddenly came to life after 85 minutes.
quote:Do you hate the entire country or just the US men's soccer team?
Originally posted by Caissa:
I hate the US. I was ecstatic when Portugal got the equalizer.
quote:I think if we do a replacement test, replacing "the US" for Brazil, Netherlands, Mexico or Italy, just to grab a few examples, it would be fairly obvious that she was talking about the US men's soccer team. But it's a bit lot to ask to write all that out in a two-sentence reply, in my opinion. Just imagine the problem we'd have if The Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia's Men's Soccer Team would qualify. I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise. Especially since it wasn't likely that it was all of Portugal, every square inch and all of its 11 million people, that together scored the equalizer mentioned in the follow-up sentence.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:Do you hate the entire country or just the US men's soccer team?
Originally posted by Caissa:
I hate the US. I was ecstatic when Portugal got the equalizer.
quote:Yeah, I suppose I should have thought of that. But there's been enough anti-US sentiment on these boards over the years to make my question a legitimate one, I think.
Originally posted by JFH:
I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise.
quote:I thought he was American now.
Originally posted by rugasaw:
When did Patrick Steward start playing for the Netherlands?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:Football rivalries can sometimes just be the pantomime of sport, or they can be a proxy for something deeper. It's not always obvious on the surface which is which. So I think the question was fair enough.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:Yeah, I suppose I should have thought of that. But there's been enough anti-US sentiment on these boards over the years to make my question a legitimate one, I think.
Originally posted by JFH:
I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise.
quote:I do think you have a very good point here. The problem is that it's so hard to duplicate for other teams. And also, it seems to be far more implicit in the way, for example, few would enjoy watching Russia win, unless they possibly do something over the top to gain sympathy, like playing Brazilian dream football or something.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:Yeah, I suppose I should have thought of that. But there's been enough anti-US sentiment on these boards over the years to make my question a legitimate one, I think.
Originally posted by JFH:
I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise.
quote:Oh yeah, England are playing again soon. *Feigns lack of interest*
Originally posted by orfeo:
Thoughts for the next matches, now only just over an hour away...
quote:Which just goes to show how desperate Utd are at the moment. (In passing - if they really do spend a couple of hundred million on new players, won't that screw them in terms of Financial Fairplay?)
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Rumours this morning of Man Utd being willing to cough up £40million for him...
quote:The game doesn't have a large following there. Hate is a strong word, which I wouldn't use, but indifferent and not cheering for them. Yes. The members of the team and coach are playing for America I gather. Nationality is another matter.
Originally posted by Caissa:
To answer the question posed to me, as a Canadian I have a strong antipathy towards the US. I hate the US men's football team.
quote:This article in Bleacher Report says about 27 million people in the US watched the US-Portugal game, more than watched any game of the NBA championship series.
Originally posted by no prophet:
The game doesn't have a large following there.
quote:I don't think Balotelli is a bastard. He's very young, he's not the brightest and he's got a lot of silly things on his mind, but he's also Italy's Jackie Robinson and he's only in the national team because he's so bloody talented that the national coach cannot accede to the Italian supporters' constant claims that he's not a real Italian - due to his skin colour. Adding to that a very harsh childhood or rather an entire life like that and without other people to connect to in similar situations (unlike Robinson where the black minority was large and could at least find support in one another).
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
News flash - everybody's least favourite rat bastard Ballotelly already got a yellow card. Here's hoping he gets the red card he so richly deserves.
quote:He belongs in a mental hospital. A grown up man biting people just isn't normal.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Suarez has bitten someone !
quote:Do we know if Van Gaal sees him as first choice? There were rumours that he was interested in another LB. It would be a shame if he was to become another Zaha - bought with razzmataz and then shipped out on loan. And you're right about Rodwell & Sinclair. To name but two. When will young players realise that if they want to get to the top, they have to be playing regularly?
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Agreed, Oscar the Grouch. £40million is a heck of a lot of money for an immensely talented but unproven left back. From the England perspective, would Shaw moving to Man U be that bad? He'd presumably be first choice, so there wouldn't be the Rodwell / Sinclair issue of a talented youngster warming the bench and seeing his career stall.
quote:I don't know about years past, but this year, every bar in town has been packed every day of the World Cup. I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:This article in Bleacher Report says about 27 million people in the US watched the US-Portugal game, more than watched any game of the NBA championship series.
Originally posted by no prophet:
The game doesn't have a large following there.
John Oliver is correct in his characterization of soccer as being for a lot of Americans "something you pick up your 10-year-old daughter from," but my sister-in-law, who used to be one of those 10-year-old soccer players, follows soccer, and she's got company. Between the growth of immigration from Mexico and Central and South America* and the exposure of millions to the game in childhood, there's more interest now than there ever has been, and I think the upward trend will continue. (After all, the US is an enormous media market and there's a lot of money to be made here.)
*And from other places too, of course. I was recently forced to spend a number of hours sitting in the waiting area of a mechanic shop, and the Beirut-born Armenian-American owner had the TV tuned to the World Cup, so I watched too, and I got interested.
quote:That match was insane. That GUY is insane. I had mixed feelings about the outcome, as I am following the Latin American teams.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:He belongs in a mental hospital. A grown up man biting people just isn't normal.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Suarez has bitten someone !
quote:God, poor kid. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
...sold at a loss to a club like Spurs or Stoke.
quote:"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
quote:Really? I thought he was rooting for Italy.
Originally posted by pjl:
Suarez had a real appetite for this game.
quote:Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
quote:(if I may be so bold)
Originally posted by JFH:
I think Balotelli's a relatively good kid who loses his mind. I wouldn't compare him in bastardery to say, Suarez, Busquets or De Jong. I'd also be careful with the insults around him given what sides one risks placing oneself on.
quote:I could. I could also go by my experience of meeting many humble and generally lovely Americans in Real Life™. But have you seen US soccer fans hunt in packs? Dude! And somehow that seems like the most appropriate yardstick in this particular conversation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
quote:Oh, OK,
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:I could. I could also go by my experience of meeting many humble and generally lovely Americans in Real Life™. But have you seen US soccer fans hunt in packs? Dude! And somehow that seems like the most appropriate yardstick in this particular conversation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
quote:Nucking futz, in other words.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Also, with Suarez, I'm not sure that this is exactly what's going on. I think he reacts in a moment and without thinking when he bites. Then, in the immediate aftermath he thinks "oh, shit, what now?" and decides that feigning injury is the best way to get away with what he's done.
quote:Especially if the target revels in being wound. Yeesh, the histrionics with that guy.
Identifying a member of the opposition who has a temper and making a specific effort to wind them up in the hope that they will do something stupid is a tactic that is as old as sport itself. And completely legitimate, IMHO.
quote:This is unquestionably true.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think Soccer/ Football just brings out the freak in people. Ole!
quote:HEY! What's that with the ethnic profiling! Mind you, even our king's own staff have had enough of him cheering on our athletes!
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Oh, OK,
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:I could. I could also go by my experience of meeting many humble and generally lovely Americans in Real Life™. But have you seen US soccer fans hunt in packs? Dude! And somehow that seems like the most appropriate yardstick in this particular conversation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
But my answer to that is-- ever met any Colombia fans? They make us look like Swedish diplomats.
quote:Mind you, it would be the first booting in World Cup history. Also, you evidently haven't seen the Gentile reference I gave you. I can't access Youtube for another month but if you look up Gentile you'll find a punch from behind near the far corner from the referees' viewpoint, designed specifically to allow him to hurt and provoke an opponent out of the ref's view. Very pre-conceived and he got to stay in. Are we actually excessively focused on harsh penalties these days?
Originally posted by Cod:
I'd be quite happy to see Suarez booted out of the tournament. Biting a player may not be in the same class assault as, say, Schumacher on Battiston, but it represents a sneakiness that adds an extra unpleasantness to the violence. Bite a player, get him to lose his temper and get himself sent off = job done.
quote:I don't hate him because I'm racist: my best friends from high school are my old football buddies who are predominantly black. I hate him because he's a racist. I remind you that just last year, he deliberately kicked poor old Gareth in the head and got away with it! Had he gotten the red card he deserved, Spurs might have won the match. He likely bribed the referees to look the other way. Wonder how he'd have felt if Suarez had bit him?
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:I don't think Balotelli is a bastard.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
News flash - everybody's least favourite rat bastard Ballotelly already got a yellow card. Here's hoping he gets the red card he so richly deserves.
I think Balotelli's a relatively good kid who loses his mind. I wouldn't compare him in bastardery to say, Suarez, Busquets or De Jong. I'd also be careful with the insults around him given what sides one risks placing oneself on.
quote:It seems that way. Sturridge seems like a nice guy who means well, but as we all know, nice guys finish last! That's 95 minutes of my life I'll never get back...
Originally posted by Cod:
Onto Eng v Costa Rica: Daniel Sturridge was biffing the ball around like Stuart Surridge, but to rather less effect.
No Rrrooney, no gol.
quote:I read something on the BBC website, which said that technically a FIFA ban can be applied to domestic games, but in practice, never is. So that is not very helpful!
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Question for those who know more than me (i.e. most, if not all, of you)
If Suarez were to get a 2 year ban, would that just be international games or is that a ban from all competitive football?
Any coverage I've read has not been clear on this point.
quote:I cannot agree with this. At all. It's not just biting. It's biting REPEATEDLY.
Originally posted by JFH:
Regarding Suarez, I must say I don't understand those asking for him to "be thrown out" of the World Cup. Are they asking for a 4 game suspension, or for him to be literally banned and sent home? If the latter, frankly, yeah, biting is not a normal degree of violence but I don't necessarily think it's a more dangerous or brutal form of violence than Gentile's secret face-punch in the late 80's, De Jong's chest-kick from the last finals, or Danish Christian Poulsen's punch to Swede Markus Rosenberg's belly in the 2007 qualifications. Given that modern football is ripe with spitting attacks (e.g. Totti) and headbuttings (e.g. Zidane), I am not sure I see it as particularly and severely degraded behaviour either in comparison to the rest. Uncommon, yes, and primal, indeed, but that speaks more for Suarez's need for care than for that his crime was one against humanity and/or nature.
I think it should be treated with less dehumanising and a greater degree of professionalism - yes, we have an extreme case of violence, but will remain extreme and uncommon. It left marks on Chiellini's shoulder but not worse than those of e.g. Scholes's thigh-piercing tackle vs Mild in late 90s (yellow card, no suspension). The Laws of the Game include a special paragraph for spitting under offences deserving a red card, but does not mention biting. The paragraph this goes under would be "If a player attacks another player" and leads to a red card. Attacks can be of many kinds (I speak as a former ref), and I'm glad it's not defined, because it is extreme and should be so. But I don't think Suarez's attack on Chiellini was worse than many other attacks in modern football. Possibly more primitive and uncommon, yet none of those are grounds for prolongening suspensions.
So, I can see a four game suspension (or longer) for his attack, but I think throwing him out of the World Cup "on principle" would be sending plenty of bad messages about how spitting and head-butting is relatively fine.
quote:Strictly speaking it would be the first booting for foul play on the field (AFAICR). My earliest world cup memory is Willie Johnstone being sent home for taking banned substances in Argentina '78. The same, more famously, happened to Maradona in USA '94. So FIFA have sent people home before now.
Mind you, it would be the first booting in World Cup history.
quote:Punching, kicking, head butting all involve motions that are part of the game. Think of the did he or didn't he plays. Biting is very difficult to achieve accidentally.
And it's a form of violence that takes special effort to achieve. He ran at his victim and had to duck his head down to aim at the shoulder.
quote:That's a good point. Culturally, biting is seen as a kind of animal response, beyond human culture. Check out the photo-shop at the top of the page, Suarez as a rabid dog. The other forms of violence overlap with accepted actions in soccer, since it is a physical contact sport. You can accidentally strike someone a blow, or kick them, and so on.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Originally posted by orfeo
quote:Punching, kicking, head butting all involve motions that are part of the game. Think of the did he or didn't he plays. Biting is very difficult to achieve accidentally.
And it's a form of violence that takes special effort to achieve. He ran at his victim and had to duck his head down to aim at the shoulder.
quote:I don't know about that . . . all that grabbing and shoving and pushing. A gentleman would simply step aside and let the other gentleman go through with the ball if that's what he really wanted to do.
Originally posted by shamwari:
Football is a game for gentlemen played by thugs
quote:In the olden days it was a game played in posh schools, and even when it eventually became a professional sport it was considered unsportsmanlike to play with anything less than six forwards. Here's an interesting article: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25958046
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:I don't know about that . . . all that grabbing and shoving and pushing. A gentleman would simply step aside and let the other gentleman go through with the ball if that's what he really wanted to do.
Originally posted by shamwari:
Football is a game for gentlemen played by thugs
quote:Zidane had a long history of headbuttings, the penultimate one just a few games before the famous Last One if I recall correctly. That's ticks the box for Special Effort violence. (As does Gentile's sneak strike, which I have little doubt he performed more than once.) Zidane was not just any profile, but THE profile. All the same goes for Scholes' tackles, and De Jong's long history of extremely violent football behaviour. (See the height of that kick? That's special effort too.)
Originally posted by orfeo:
I cannot agree with this. At all. It's not just biting. It's biting REPEATEDLY.
You come up with examples of other things where you refer to a single incident. A single, high-profile incident. Not someone who is biting opponents almost annually - 3 times in the space of 3.5 years.
And it's a form of violence that takes special effort to achieve. He ran at his victim and had to duck his head down to aim at the shoulder.
It's demented, and to have such a high profile player doing it is incredibly damaging to the sport.
Apparently the maximum ban that can be handed out is 2 years. It's a pity. If it were up to me he would be deregistered as a player.
quote:I'd assume the situation is similar to that of spitting another human being in the face. It would at least create a spectrum out of the binary logic hepatitis risk/no hepatitis risk. The Scholes tackle I mentioned above led to several months of recuperation from a blood infection. I've myself still got a couple of scars from severe bruisings and tackles including one in the face from a headbutting once. My nose also still isn't quite straight.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
More prosaically, you can get blood borne infections form bites that break the skin *much* more easily than from kicks, punches and headbutts. Also, more likely to scar.
It is one thing to get a bruise, an entirely different order of impact on someone's life to get Hepatitus or HIV.
quote:Yes, exactly what I'm getting at. Kicking, most certainly. The whole point of the game is to use your legs. In that same match, an Italian player was sent off for a kick - and the commentators down here were in agreement that there was no malice in the kick, it was reckless play (and a legitimate sending off), but the intention was to do with the ball not the opponent. Kicking a player instead of the ball can be an accident. Heading a player instead of the ball can, in some cases, be an accident.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Originally posted by orfeo
quote:Punching, kicking, head butting all involve motions that are part of the game. Think of the did he or didn't he plays. Biting is very difficult to achieve accidentally.
And it's a form of violence that takes special effort to achieve. He ran at his victim and had to duck his head down to aim at the shoulder.
quote:For the reasons lilBuddha has already outlined, I don't think you understand what I was referring to by special effort. Scholes' tackles? Tackling is a key part of the game. Doing it badly is certainly something that deserves sanction, but you're supposed to be doing it.
Originally posted by JFH:
Zidane had a long history of headbuttings, the penultimate one just a few games before the famous Last One if I recall correctly. That's ticks the box for Special Effort violence. (As does Gentile's sneak strike, which I have little doubt he performed more than once.) Zidane was not just any profile, but THE profile. All the same goes for Scholes' tackles, and De Jong's long history of extremely violent football behaviour. (See the height of that kick? That's special effort too.)
quote:No, I don't understand how you think Zidane's headbutt was a natural motion. That's not related to a football header in any way at all. Scholes' tackles were far out of control or reason (something the Laws of the Game stipulate warrants a red card). Trust me, I was a specialist tackler for eight years and studied dirty tricks in order to use them myself. You KNOW when you're tackling for player or when you're going for the ball. Or when you're just out of control. But you pick the weakest of my cases, not the strongest.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:For the reasons lilBuddha has already outlined, I don't think you understand what I was referring to by special effort. Scholes' tackles? Tackling is a key part of the game. Doing it badly is certainly something that deserves sanction, but you're supposed to be doing it.
Originally posted by JFH:
Zidane had a long history of headbuttings, the penultimate one just a few games before the famous Last One if I recall correctly. That's ticks the box for Special Effort violence. (As does Gentile's sneak strike, which I have little doubt he performed more than once.) Zidane was not just any profile, but THE profile. All the same goes for Scholes' tackles, and De Jong's long history of extremely violent football behaviour. (See the height of that kick? That's special effort too.)
Explain to me the reason why Suarez' teeth should be anywhere besides firmly inside his closed mouth.
quote:We've already established that Scholes caused bacterial infections with his tackles and that biting is not the only way to spread human saliva that has been tried on professional football fields in the last fifteen years.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Human saliva can contain up to 50 species of bacteria and is capable of transmitting infectious diseases. Humans biting other humans is barbaric at best and criminal at worst.
quote:Stepping over Uruguay for a moment-- the Latin American teams are really impressing me. Poetry by assassin-- perfect!
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Now Argentina are beginning to look like champions, fast, fluent, balanced. Defence a bit wobbly, but watch them going forwards, poetry by an assassin.
quote:All except Brazil! But I think Brazil and Argentina are tuning up, and will get better and better. But will the Europeans? Maybe. I'm liking France.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Stepping over Uruguay for a moment-- the Latin American teams are really impressing me. Poetry by assassin-- perfect!
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Now Argentina are beginning to look like champions, fast, fluent, balanced. Defence a bit wobbly, but watch them going forwards, poetry by an assassin.
quote:I think you're right. There is a cultural, almost anthropological distinction about it. I was looking at the various photo-shops of Suarez as a mad dog, and that's how people see biting.
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
As well as that, biting just isn't normal. It's sneaky, cowardly, dirty etc. You might forgive kids for doing it in a fight but even then it's frowned upon. Anyway, I think they should allow fighting in football like they do in the NHL. Suffered a dangerous tackle? Some actor got you booked? Fistycuffs! Not biting though, that's dirty.
quote:France looks like a force to be reckoned with. I have to admit, I have only seen bits and pieces of the Brazil games.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:All except Brazil! But I think Brazil and Argentina are tuning up, and will get better and better. But will the Europeans? Maybe. I'm liking France.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Stepping over Uruguay for a moment-- the Latin American teams are really impressing me. Poetry by assassin-- perfect!
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Now Argentina are beginning to look like champions, fast, fluent, balanced. Defence a bit wobbly, but watch them going forwards, poetry by an assassin.
quote:The thing is if it's to be exceptional, you need to prove all other actions are categorically different. I've shoved arms and other body parts in people's faces while on the pitch - if their teeth clasp together as a reflex or as an attempt to get back with whatever they've got would not necessarily be clear. At least not visibly so.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JFH,
You pick blatant examples, but not incidents are so clear.
If we are facing each other for control of the ball,you kick the ball away and then I kick you, this could be an accidental delayed move or a retribution. Sometimes this is difficult to tell. In what situation could biting be ambiguous?
quote:I'd agree, and if it was a first offence of that extreme nature then a similar punishment to the above would be fine. I think the fact that it looks like it is the third offence makes a massive difference. He hasn't learnt from his mistakes and therefore is, at times, out of control and therefore dangerous on the pitch. Surely because of that he needs to have some treatment and punishment for his actions. It is a shame, as this year he has been instrumental in the development of both Sterling and Sturridge and helped them turn into the players they are.
Originally posted by JFH:
The problem is that Suarez's action was an extreme one, naturally, and will remain seen as such - but thus it should be compared with similarly extreme/blatant ones. We're actually discussing whether it was a worse action than Schumacher's assault on Battiston, Zidane's headbutting or than Totti's spitting when we're demanding extreme and unique punishments for this case. We could also claim having moved on and developed, but then the next question is what other offences should receive similar treatment in a modern world?
quote:Yup.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I have always thought it should be a red card for an *intentional* rule breach - cos that is cheating.
So that would include diving.
quote:That's alright. So am I, to some degree. We're not just talking about cards, though, we're talking about long-time suspensions and making the World Cup a country club where you get thrown out if your behaviour is deviant enough.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am not defending the casual treatment of other offences, I am exploring why biting is treated differently. Personally, I think the cards should err in the other direction than they currently do. I think, instead of the benefit of the doubt, referees should be more ready to red card. People will always push the boundaries, reign those is a bit and you will see fewer accidents as well as fewer intentionals.
quote:I can think of no rule, save possibly some of the offside cases, in the Laws of the Game that rewards a free kick and/or other punishment for something that isn't intentional. I'm not sure I'd appreciate that legalistic a sport, as well as one that views headbuttings or biting the same as pulling someone's shirt or standing too close to the free kick when it's being taken. It would be another sport, for sure. Also, a heck of a sport to referee given the massive consequences.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I have always thought it should be a red card for an *intentional* rule breach - cos that is cheating.
So that would include diving.
quote:Foucault would be so proud. Do we want him forcibly neutered as well?
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Luis Suarez should be incarcerated in a secure mental facility indefinitely at his own expense. He should be kept in a private wing away from the other four-year-olds.
quote:Like I said, Zidane had a very long history of headbuttings. Keane had a long history of uncontrolled (and those are mentioned in the rules so they exist and referees assume players can also tell the difference) tackles and other behaviour. I believe Totti spat on players at more than one time. Precedence leans toward longer than usual suspensions (which he has already received before) but no extreme or unique punishment. This is perfectly in accordance with the Laws of the Game and not just arbitrarily declaring a player anathema - not that I think FIFA's going to care much for justice, though.
Originally posted by Tom Day:
I'd agree, and if it was a first offence of that extreme nature then a similar punishment to the above would be fine. I think the fact that it looks like it is the third offence makes a massive difference. He hasn't learnt from his mistakes and therefore is, at times, out of control and therefore dangerous on the pitch. Surely because of that he needs to have some treatment and punishment for his actions. It is a shame, as this year he has been instrumental in the development of both Sterling and Sturridge and helped them turn into the players they are.
quote:I used to do that.
Originally posted by Caissa:
To answer the question posed to me, as a Canadian I have a strong antipathy towards the US. I hate the US men's football team.
quote:Unless he played for Spurs?
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Luis Suarez should be incarcerated in a secure mental facility indefinitely at his own expense. He should be kept in a private wing away from the other four-year-olds.
quote:As a Brit now in Canada and getting used to MLS soccer, I want the USA to do well. The more success they have, the more credibility and quality the MLS will have. The end result will hopefully be that soccer in the US AND Canada will improve. I would love to see both nations qualifying for a World Cup tournament. I don't think this is unrealistic, given the populations of the two countries.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:I used to do that.
Originally posted by Caissa:
To answer the question posed to me, as a Canadian I have a strong antipathy towards the US. I hate the US men's football team.
Until this World Cup, where I found I knew half the US players through MLS. Although I would like nothing better then to see Yedlin found out as the speed merchant without defensive skills that he is, I can not but support a guy like Beisler who has worked up his way through to become a decent international CD.
Bradley though....I'm not sure what he's thinking in the last two games as he is usually much better then what he has been doing. He can't be blamed for the last Portugal goal (for Pete's sake, you have 4 defenders and a CD playing DM and you push them UP?!?!?)
Frankly, I want to see all CONCACAF teams do well and am glad that 2 are in and a 3rd has a good shout (Honduras though....ugh).
quote:That's the wrong part of his anatomy: pull all his teeth out instead so that he can never bite anyone ever again!
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Foucault would be so proud. Do we want him forcibly neutered as well?
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Luis Suarez should be incarcerated in a secure mental facility indefinitely at his own expense. He should be kept in a private wing away from the other four-year-olds.
quote:How would you advise making Zidane cease his headbuttings?
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:That's the wrong part of his anatomy: pull all his teeth out instead so that he can never bite anyone ever again!
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Foucault would be so proud. Do we want him forcibly neutered as well?
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Luis Suarez should be incarcerated in a secure mental facility indefinitely at his own expense. He should be kept in a private wing away from the other four-year-olds.
quote:The better all the teams are, the better the games will be to watch. That's what I hope for-- that all the teams will kick ass, because iwatching two kickass teams play each other is a joy.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:As a Brit now in Canada and getting used to MLS soccer, I want the USA to do well. The more success they have, the more credibility and quality the MLS will have. The end result will hopefully be that soccer in the US AND Canada will improve. I would love to see both nations qualifying for a World Cup tournament. I don't think this is unrealistic, given the populations of the two countries.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:I used to do that.
Originally posted by Caissa:
To answer the question posed to me, as a Canadian I have a strong antipathy towards the US. I hate the US men's football team.
Until this World Cup, where I found I knew half the US players through MLS. Although I would like nothing better then to see Yedlin found out as the speed merchant without defensive skills that he is, I can not but support a guy like Beisler who has worked up his way through to become a decent international CD.
Bradley though....I'm not sure what he's thinking in the last two games as he is usually much better then what he has been doing. He can't be blamed for the last Portugal goal (for Pete's sake, you have 4 defenders and a CD playing DM and you push them UP?!?!?)
Frankly, I want to see all CONCACAF teams do well and am glad that 2 are in and a 3rd has a good shout (Honduras though....ugh).
.
quote:The US goes to the second round (thanks, Portugal!), and holding the second-best team in the world to one goal is pretty damn good.
Originally posted by Caissa:
Mueller scores in the 55th minute.
quote:You don't think that people such as her are best ignored?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, fuck Ann Coulter. When I get to a place where I can create a proper hyperlink, I will explain this in Hell.
quote:I' m sure you could say that about 80% of the entries on TICTH. Whatever.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:You don't think that people such as her are best ignored?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, fuck Ann Coulter. When I get to a place where I can create a proper hyperlink, I will explain this in Hell.
quote:Yeah, their reputation is intimidating.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
* Although who knows what would have happened today if Ghana hadn't imploded.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:Getting it in the goolies is bad but biting just ain't normal.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
None work safe links - so biting better or worse than this or this ?
quote:Thanks but I think I'll stick with my Henry vs. Defoe and 20 other guys fix in a couple of hours.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
If you're in need of a footballing fix, you could always ...
quote:In his time Vinnie Jones had a reputation for that sort of thing, course he is a film star nowadays.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Link 2 looks like it might have been carelessness, but link 1 is just as bad as Suarez, imo. That's just straight up wrong.
quote:As of now, looking at precedent, biting someone in the shoulder without getting through the skin (yes, degree is ALWAYS part of suspension maths) is to begin with 1 game worse than breaking someone's nose with an aimed elbow, e.g. Tassotti -94, and also more than twice as bad as breaking someone's skull, leaving the person hospitalized for months, as in Leonardo -94. Painwise?
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Probably less painful though, and has the benefit of not being (technically) a sexual assault (well depending where you bite).
quote:The key issue to think of here is whether or not it's ok in streetfighting.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Link 2 looks like it might have been carelessness, but link 1 is just as bad as Suarez, imo. That's just straight up wrong.
quote:I realize Holland has been otherworldly good many times this year, but on which continent do we find it...?
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a European side doesn't win it I hope a new team does, like Holland or Chile.
quote:I had a few.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:As of now, looking at precedent, biting someone in the shoulder without getting through the skin (yes, degree is ALWAYS part of suspension maths) is to begin with 1 game worse than breaking someone's nose with an aimed elbow, e.g. Tassotti -94, and also more than twice as bad as breaking someone's skull, leaving the person hospitalized for months, as in Leonardo -94. Painwise?
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Probably less painful though, and has the benefit of not being (technically) a sexual assault (well depending where you bite).
And yes, hitting below the belt is fairly common, I'd say. Myself I often used gay sweet-talk to disturb fellow 14-year-olds on the other side, which used to get them somewhat shaken. I'm straight myself, but at a time when homophobia is at its worst and the need to prove oneself at its highest, it worked pretty well. Once or twice in difficult games a hand may have slipped to the attacker's butt before a corner kick. They never scored at those times, although I now realize it was probably sexual harassment. However, plenty of football action could also go as assault and/or battery - which is not condoning any of it, but I can understand my efficiency-focused 14-year-old mind.
quote:The key issue to think of here is whether or not it's ok in streetfighting.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Link 2 looks like it might have been carelessness, but link 1 is just as bad as Suarez, imo. That's just straight up wrong.
quote:I realize Holland has been otherworldly good many times this year, but on which continent do we find it...?
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a European side doesn't win it I hope a new team does, like Holland or Chile.
quote:Where is Jermaine these days? I thought he had transferred or was on loan to a US side...
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Thanks but I think I'll stick with my Henry vs. Defoe and 20 other guys fix in a couple of hours.
quote:I too find it passing strange that football [and not just FIFA] regards a love peck (annoying but hardly painful, at least for a bite in the body areas a player is likely have access to) as more reprehensible than (say) the crude tackle that the Italian defender was sent off for , which was clearly intended to seriously injure an opponent (even if it did not actually do so).
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:As of now, looking at precedent, biting someone in the shoulder without getting through the skin (yes, degree is ALWAYS part of suspension maths) is to begin with 1 game worse than breaking someone's nose with an aimed elbow, e.g. Tassotti -94, and also more than twice as bad as breaking someone's skull, leaving the person hospitalized for months, as in Leonardo -94. Painwise?
Originally posted by Doublethink:
[Biting] is Probably less painful [than a kick in the goolies] , and has the benefit of not being (technically) a sexual assault (well depending where you bite).
quote:Today is a blessed day in every World Cup. Today is the day that signals I have seen 48 matches, and I have survived.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
And today is that weird day where we go......
what
no games!?!?
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
(I hate all of them, in fact I hate all teams except my own but some more than others, so I hate Germany, Argentina (and Brazil because they're a bunch of diving tarts, such deserve to be kicked in the bollocks) and Millwall, Chelsea, Spurs especially).
quote:Yes, I'll be cheering for Chile too. I love the way they've played so far, and IMO Brazil have been far from convincing. Vamos Chilenos!
Originally posted by orfeo:
Hoping for Chile to cause a boilover tonight, and to meet Colombia in the next round. To me Brazil has been a bit unconvincing and somewhat lucky.
quote:Unbelievable.
"After the impact... I lost my balance, making my body unstable and falling on top of my opponent. At that moment I hit my face against the player, leaving a small bruise on my cheek and a strong pain in my teeth."
quote:Why were the people supervising, including the referees - allowing you to get away with this ?
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:As of now, looking at precedent, biting someone in the shoulder without getting through the skin (yes, degree is ALWAYS part of suspension maths) is to begin with 1 game worse than breaking someone's nose with an aimed elbow, e.g. Tassotti -94, and also more than twice as bad as breaking someone's skull, leaving the person hospitalized for months, as in Leonardo -94. Painwise?
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Probably less painful though, and has the benefit of not being (technically) a sexual assault (well depending where you bite).
And yes, hitting below the belt is fairly common, I'd say. Myself I often used gay sweet-talk to disturb fellow 14-year-olds on the other side, which used to get them somewhat shaken. I'm straight myself, but at a time when homophobia is at its worst and the need to prove oneself at its highest, it worked pretty well. Once or twice in difficult games a hand may have slipped to the attacker's butt before a corner kick. They never scored at those times, although I now realize it was probably sexual harassment. However, plenty of football action could also go as assault and/or battery - which is not condoning any of it, but I can understand my efficiency-focused 14-year-old mind.
quote:The key issue to think of here is whether or not it's ok in streetfighting.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Link 2 looks like it might have been carelessness, but link 1 is just as bad as Suarez, imo. That's just straight up wrong.
quote:I realize Holland has been otherworldly good many times this year, but on which continent do we find it...?
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a European side doesn't win it I hope a new team does, like Holland or Chile.
quote:I'm confused. Does he think they're a bunch of old fogeys who don't understand how video cameras work?
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Luis Suárez's statement to the FIFA disciplinary panel has been seen by journalists. It includes the following statement from the player:quote:Unbelievable.
"After the impact... I lost my balance, making my body unstable and falling on top of my opponent. At that moment I hit my face against the player, leaving a small bruise on my cheek and a strong pain in my teeth."
quote:There's a significant number of people who think that the amount of physical contact between attacking players and defenders at corners should be reduced. There's also a lot of people who think that football has become too protective of players, that more physical play should be allowed, and that football isn't just about skill. These are subjective things. Like I said, there obviously has to be a line somewhere, but different people will have different opinions on where it should be.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Then why not just say everything bar blood injury is permitted ? If you claim it is about football skill, then why permit people to basically fight ?
quote:It's exactly analogous, yes. Like I said, different people have different lines. Collective wisdom in the UK before (roughly) the nineties was that racial abuse was an acceptable part of football. It's only very recently that homophobic comments came to be frowned upon. Lines get redrawn over time.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
(Oh and re caring, homophobic bullying and sexual harassment are things we are generally - as a society - wanting to discourage. It is basically the same reason whispering hey monkey, monkey at black players to distract them would not be OK.)
quote:Honestly, I think he's a man who's so protected from the Real World™ that he genuinely thinks that people will believe it, regardless of the evidence.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm confused. Does he think they're a bunch of old fogeys who don't understand how video cameras work?
quote:If he ever does get banned, he has a great future as a comedian.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Luis Suárez's statement to the FIFA disciplinary panel has been seen by journalists. It includes the following statement from the player:quote:Unbelievable.
"After the impact... I lost my balance, making my body unstable and falling on top of my opponent. At that moment I hit my face against the player, leaving a small bruise on my cheek and a strong pain in my teeth."
quote:I remember seeing him writhing on the ground and clutching his face, then I watched the replay to see what caused that,and thinking, "... The hell? Nothing happened to him!" ( from the angle I missed the bite, but it was clear whatever was going on was initiated by Suarez.)
Originally posted by orfeo:
Does he think no-one saw this? Where's the pre-bite impact, then?
quote:Knowing when and how to use force/physical contact is in itself a skill. Timing the tackle not just so as to get the ball but to disbalance the attacker optimally is about winning time for him to get up and lowering the other team's morale.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Then why not just say everything bar blood injury is permitted ? If you claim it is about football skill, then why permit people to basically fight ?
(Oh and re caring, homophobic bullying and sexual harassment are things we are generally - as a society - wanting to discourage. It is basically the same reason whispering hey monkey, monkey at black players to distract them would not be OK.)
quote:While I haven't seen the footage (at least, not lately), I'm given to understand that Suarez writhed on the ground 'injured' after one of his other bites as well.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:I remember seeing him writhing on the ground and clutching his face, then I watched the replay to see what caused that,and thinking, "... The hell? Nothing happened to him!" ( from the angle I missed the bite, but it was clear whatever was going on was initiated by Suarez.)
Originally posted by orfeo:
Does he think no-one saw this? Where's the pre-bite impact, then?
quote:And how is that not intentionally cheating ?
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Knowing when and how to use force/physical contact is in itself a skill. Timing the tackle not just so as to get the ball but to disbalance the attacker optimally is about winning time for him to get up and lowering the other team's morale.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Then why not just say everything bar blood injury is permitted ? If you claim it is about football skill, then why permit people to basically fight ?
(Oh and re caring, homophobic bullying and sexual harassment are things we are generally - as a society - wanting to discourage. It is basically the same reason whispering hey monkey, monkey at black players to distract them would not be OK.)
As for homophobic comments, I think the only mention has been my own, in which it was more of an act of playing on the other party's homophobia to get them out of focus. The racial similarity of this would be for a black player to take a fearful prejudice about blacks and use it against the racist, presumably something like "Ooh, have I told you about the night I had with your daughter?" or something such.
quote:A Swedish psychologist raised a theory that it could actually be a reaction of his inner trauma that first leads up to the bite and then adds shame and an extreme stress reaction to follow from it which takes an expression similar to, or warped into, an injury writhing.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:While I haven't seen the footage (at least, not lately), I'm given to understand that Suarez writhed on the ground 'injured' after one of his other bites as well.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:I remember seeing him writhing on the ground and clutching his face, then I watched the replay to see what caused that,and thinking, "... The hell? Nothing happened to him!" ( from the angle I missed the bite, but it was clear whatever was going on was initiated by Suarez.)
Originally posted by orfeo:
Does he think no-one saw this? Where's the pre-bite impact, then?
One theory is that it's a short-term distraction technique from what he's done. I suppose it would be a bit obvious if he just stood there grinning maniacally with a glint of bloodlust in his eye.
(Crosspost flurry-- that was to Orfeo)quote:I don't follow. Please trace back the point you're trying to make and how that's been going through the discussion. It feels like we're back on a broken tangent a while back, but I'm not sure.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:And how is that not intentionally cheating ?
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Knowing when and how to use force/physical contact is in itself a skill. Timing the tackle not just so as to get the ball but to disbalance the attacker optimally is about winning time for him to get up and lowering the other team's morale.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Then why not just say everything bar blood injury is permitted ? If you claim it is about football skill, then why permit people to basically fight ?
(Oh and re caring, homophobic bullying and sexual harassment are things we are generally - as a society - wanting to discourage. It is basically the same reason whispering hey monkey, monkey at black players to distract them would not be OK.)
As for homophobic comments, I think the only mention has been my own, in which it was more of an act of playing on the other party's homophobia to get them out of focus. The racial similarity of this would be for a black player to take a fearful prejudice about blacks and use it against the racist, presumably something like "Ooh, have I told you about the night I had with your daughter?" or something such.
quote:
Originally posted by JFH
A Swedish psychologist raised a theory that it could actually be a reaction of his inner trauma that first leads up to the bite and then adds shame and an extreme stress reaction to follow from it which takes an expression similar to, or warped into, an injury writhing.
quote:The advantage of the approach of the Swedish psychologist is that it accounts for and allows us to persist in think Suarez's biting a demented behaviour of a sick man, rather than the logical behaviour of a healthy man with a different view on what's inhuman. It allows us to keep Suarez human and broken rather than inhuman and clever. Thus the "Swedish theory" has more explanatory value, it seems, and is the one we should scientifically adopt.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH
A Swedish psychologist raised a theory that it could actually be a reaction of his inner trauma that first leads up to the bite and then adds shame and an extreme stress reaction to follow from it which takes an expression similar to, or warped into, an injury writhing.
An American child development specialist would like to suggest that he was playing the classic game of "he hit me first/ I got hurt worster than him!" Well known to nine- year olds worldwide. He was trying to cover his ass.
quote:After it's happened 3 times, it's about time to stop using any explanation of why he bites in a given situation (or why he might writhe on the ground afterwards, although frankly the proffered explanation sounds like a pile of horseshit given the sheer speed at which Suarez switches to injured mode), and see to it that he isn't in that given situation again.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:The advantage of the approach of the Swedish psychologist is that it accounts for and allows us to persist in think Suarez's biting a demented behaviour of a sick man, rather than the logical behaviour of a healthy man with a different view on what's inhuman. It allows us to keep Suarez human and broken rather than inhuman and clever. Thus the "Swedish theory" has more explanatory value, it seems, and is the one we should scientifically adopt.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH
A Swedish psychologist raised a theory that it could actually be a reaction of his inner trauma that first leads up to the bite and then adds shame and an extreme stress reaction to follow from it which takes an expression similar to, or warped into, an injury writhing.
An American child development specialist would like to suggest that he was playing the classic game of "he hit me first/ I got hurt worster than him!" Well known to nine- year olds worldwide. He was trying to cover his ass.
quote:Which would involve at least one of his managers, somewhere, acknowledging that a problem exists.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Or his manager should learn the early warning signs and then substitute him when they see them.
quote:Let's first of all remember to differentiate between the way I play and the way I referee - which is why referees are the worst kinds of players to referee!
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Essentially, argument for a ban for Suarez is on the basis that it is a) unacceptable violence *and* b) cheating.
And various of us have been saying these other things are also cheating and/or violent (with ongoing discussion of which is more or less violent).
You, who have said somewhere you are a ref, have given a number of examples of behaviour you see as OK - that I would see as cheating and/or abusive/violent.
It was my understanding that the rules require the aim of a tackle to be getting the ball. So it would seem to me that timing your tackle with the intention of bringing down the player is a breach of the rules - even if it is not detected. And therefore is not something you should be training to do. And would then be cheating, even if you got away with it.
For those of us who don't play and watch casually - we hear all this discourse about fair play, the aim of the game, skill etc - and attempts to prevent foul play - whereas you seem to be presenting a very different picture of how the game should be played. We see all these players paid tens of millions of pounds who don't seem to be able to play ninety minutes without breaking the rules - you don't see that in tennis, cricket etc
quote:That's why I think referees need bigger guns. Award penalty goals, not just a penalty, so that there's no benefit for the team that eats a red card in order to prevent a goal. Suarez in 2010 is a pretty classic case for when a penalty goal would be appropriate.
Originally posted by JFH:
I note that the red card for anything rule would not stop Suarez's big offence in the last World Cup, and there will always be situations like that.
quote:After it's happened 3 times, that's when it's time to say it's not just a bad man doing something outrageous. It's a freaking habit, which comes from a behaviour. See, that goes two ways.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:After it's happened 3 times, it's about time to stop using any explanation of why he bites in a given situation (or why he might writhe on the ground afterwards, although frankly the proffered explanation sounds like a pile of horseshit given the sheer speed at which Suarez switches to injured mode), and see to it that he isn't in that given situation again.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:The advantage of the approach of the Swedish psychologist is that it accounts for and allows us to persist in think Suarez's biting a demented behaviour of a sick man, rather than the logical behaviour of a healthy man with a different view on what's inhuman. It allows us to keep Suarez human and broken rather than inhuman and clever. Thus the "Swedish theory" has more explanatory value, it seems, and is the one we should scientifically adopt.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH
A Swedish psychologist raised a theory that it could actually be a reaction of his inner trauma that first leads up to the bite and then adds shame and an extreme stress reaction to follow from it which takes an expression similar to, or warped into, an injury writhing.
An American child development specialist would like to suggest that he was playing the classic game of "he hit me first/ I got hurt worster than him!" Well known to nine- year olds worldwide. He was trying to cover his ass.
If it is in fact the case that Mr Suarez is a psychologically vulnerable individual who will bite people in moments of high stress during a football match, Mr Suarez should not, in the interests of his mental health, be playing football.
EDIT: And of course, if he is in fact an evil little git who intentionally decides to bite opponents, then he shouldn't be playing football. The point being, it doesn't actually matter which explanation you employ as to why he does it, the fact is that he does it. Almost annually.
quote:Given that he already seems to find it difficult to take responsibility for his own actions, I don't think that making his manager (or anyone else) responsible for managing his behaviour would be very helpful. It's a pity that there isn't a penalty that would punish only Suarez without impacting on his team-mates.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Or his manager should learn the early warning signs and then substitute him when they see them.
quote:Liverpool have said they are withholding comment until they have studied the Fifa disciplinary report.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Has Liverpool said anything this time around? Apparently they originally signed him when he was on his first ban with Ajax, which doesn't bode well.
quote:I am a crap football prophet.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Chile - Brazil has just gone to penalities - I am fancying Chile to win this now. Very exciting match so far.
quote:I don't think most people, psychologust or not, would think that a grown man applying the moral reasoning of a child is a sign of mental stability.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:The advantage of the approach of the Swedish psychologist is that it accounts for and allows us to persist in think Suarez's biting a demented behaviour of a sick man, rather than the logical behaviour of a healthy man with a different view on what's inhuman.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JFH[qb]
A Swedish psychologist raised a theory that it could actually be a reaction of his inner trauma that first leads up to the bite and then adds shame and an extreme stress reaction to follow from it which takes an expression similar to, or warped into, an injury writhing.
An American child development specialist would like to suggest that he was playing the classic game of "he hit me first/ I got hurt worster than him!" Well known to nine- year olds worldwide. He was trying to cover his ass.
quote:If they pussyfoot around like they did the other day, should happen pretty quickly.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Cracking game though.
Now to watch Uruguay get knocked out. Not a moment too soon, either.
quote:Scored last night....wasn't a bad game to watch actually, unless you are into perfection.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:Where is Jermaine these days? I thought he had transferred or was on loan to a US side...
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Thanks but I think I'll stick with my Henry vs. Defoe and 20 other guys fix in a couple of hours.
quote:Brazil's luck holds,in spite of lackluster play. That's why I hate shootouts. Like Casey Stengel said, "I'd rather be lucky than good." But I can't see them getting lucky enough to beat Colombia.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:I am a crap football prophet.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Chile - Brazil has just gone to penalities - I am fancying Chile to win this now. Very exciting match so far.
quote:It started a few years back when the Swedish ref Anders Frisk gave a red card to a person on the bench who was involved in a big crowd spat, and ordered him off the bench and field - that's one of the effects of a red card (plus the automatic suspension next match). FIFA realized the uses of this and implemented it as a new rule, and a referee can now give a yellow or red card to people on the bench because they can also get themselves into trouble or fights or be involved in other situations of unsportsmanlike behaviour covered by the rulebook.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How the hell do you give a yellow card to someone on the bench !?!
quote:Do you mean Uruguay's dirty playing men's soccer team, or Uruguay as a dirty country? Or, for that matter, just any team containing Suarez?
Originally posted by Cod:
Good to see Dirtyguay out of the tournament.
quote:Aren't they? Their teamwork is beautifully in sync.
Originally posted by orfeo:
And Colombia are just a joy to watch. Would you believe they're missing their best striker, Falcao? Given what a marvel James Rodriguez is, I'd be scared to see them play with extra weaponry!
And it's not just individual brilliance, they also score some beautiful team goals, like the second one today.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:(now that I got a chance to see more of the game) Yeah, fuck him.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Arjen bloody Robben.
quote:And I was just about to go to bed... Greece are playing ok, should have scored more tough really. Costs Rica look absolutely shattered. If it goes to penalties they will struggle to kick the ball!
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Holy crap !!
What is it with this scoring in injury time !?!
(Keeps fingers crossed for Costa Rica)
quote:The team. They do have a history of dirty play. Suarez has merely continued a long tradition. No tournament would be complete without them, but it just isn't right for them to stay in too long.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Do you mean Uruguay's dirty playing men's soccer team, or Uruguay as a dirty country? Or, for that matter, just any team containing Suarez?
Originally posted by Cod:
Good to see Dirtyguay out of the tournament.
quote:That might say more about the relative merits of 'Arry and Big Phil though.
Originally posted by deano:
Cesar couldn't get on the bench at QPR and he's the Brazillian first choice goalkeeper. It's a funny old game.
quote:Bitter Hypocrenglish supporters - one sip from your chosen beverage.
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:The team. They do have a history of dirty play. Suarez has merely continued a long tradition. No tournament would be complete without them, but it just isn't right for them to stay in too long.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Do you mean Uruguay's dirty playing men's soccer team, or Uruguay as a dirty country? Or, for that matter, just any team containing Suarez?
Originally posted by Cod:
Good to see Dirtyguay out of the tournament.
Godim's handball against England made me laugh though. A little shimmy and Oh! Oh! My hand!
quote:A friend told me she'd driven past a Mexican bar here in town shortly after the game and seen a guy standing in front of it, waving the Mexican flag and crying.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Aargh, how horrible it must be to be a Mexican when the World Cup is on!
).quote:Bitter? That would be Uruguay.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Bitter Hypocrenglish supporters - one sip from your chosen beverage.
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:The team. They do have a history of dirty play. Suarez has merely continued a long tradition. No tournament would be complete without them, but it just isn't right for them to stay in too long.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Do you mean Uruguay's dirty playing men's soccer team, or Uruguay as a dirty country? Or, for that matter, just any team containing Suarez?
Originally posted by Cod:
Good to see Dirtyguay out of the tournament.
Godim's handball against England made me laugh though. A little shimmy and Oh! Oh! My hand!
quote:I wouldn't overstate it. The main difference is that the CONCACAF teams have done better than usual - but all that means in reality is that 3 teams - Mexico, Costa Rica and the USA - have done better than previously. Mexico, of course, are hardly an emerging nation in footballing terms.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I'm 6/6 now. Which of course means that my prediction of US victory over Belgium* is all but guaranteed (
The striking thing about this World Cup is that the historically dominant teams that have survived have beaten underdogs very narrowly (France and Germany today, but there are many other examples) while other Great Powers have gone down to very decisive defeats.
quote:Good, bitter, bitten, eh?
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:Bitter? That would be Uruguay.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Bitter Hypocrenglish supporters - one sip from your chosen beverage.
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:The team. They do have a history of dirty play. Suarez has merely continued a long tradition. No tournament would be complete without them, but it just isn't right for them to stay in too long.
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:Do you mean Uruguay's dirty playing men's soccer team, or Uruguay as a dirty country? Or, for that matter, just any team containing Suarez?
Originally posted by Cod:
Good to see Dirtyguay out of the tournament.
Godim's handball against England made me laugh though. A little shimmy and Oh! Oh! My hand!
quote:I'm not so sure this is accurate. There aren't THAT many injuries or suspensions, and replacing a single player is usually not that difficult even for smaller nations, unless he is extremely valuable, such as James Rodriguez or Keylor Navas. I'd say the World Cup at 8 games/team is enough for a smaller team to stand a chance when the heat is on, at least when the big sides haven't got a far superior starting 11. Mind you, 4 years ago Spain was not seen as a great football nation since they barely ever made it through to the finals. Likewise, it is only recently (1998 onwards) that France really became one of the greats.
Originally posted by deano:
It will be a bigger team that wins it ultimately because as you progress your first team starts picking up injuries and suspensions, so then it becomes a test of the depth of your squad.
The players down the squad for the bigger teams are usually better than those down the squad of the so-called smaller footballing nations.
quote:Perhaps the Swiss are posing a bit more of a challenge than one would have expected...
Originally posted by orfeo:
As for 'today', I really can't see Switzerland providing that big a challenge for Argentina, even though Argentina haven't been at their best.
quote:Bloody Argies!
Originally posted by Doublethink:
They just won, I am unsurprised.
quote:I am not surprised Argentina won. I am surprised that they made such heavy weather about it. Needing extra time to put away Switzerland? That's almost as silly as suggesting that Germany would need extra time to beat Algeria. Or that the Netherlands would be within a couple minutes of losing to Mexico.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
They just won, I am unsurprised.
quote:In other news, can I say how wonderful it was to watch a match with so little fouling and even less rolling around on the floor. From either team. Lovely.
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
YEAAH! *cough* Sorry. As you were.
quote:Not sure about in Belgium, but in MLS, players who roll around like they were shot get called out by their teammates and denigrated by supporters.
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
quote:In other news, can I say how wonderful it was to watch a match with so little fouling and even less rolling around on the floor. From either team. Lovely.
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
YEAAH! *cough* Sorry. As you were.
quote:I hate that kind of thing. Several years ago I was watching a Portugal-England match -- a quarterfinal, I think -- at a Portuguese co-worker's home. Tied at the end of regular time. And at the end of extra time.
Originally posted by comet:
2 minutes left of play and the bar I was camping in had the delivery truck show up and block the satellite signal. SCREAM!!!
quote:I'd be happy with that.
Originally posted by Cod:
Predictions for the semis:
Colombia.
France.
Netherlands.
Belgium.
quote:The Telly breaking down during an England penalty shoot-out ? This surely is the quintessential definition of a blessing in disguise .
Originally posted by basso:
Several years ago I was watching a Portugal-England match -- a quarterfinal, I think -- at a Portuguese co-worker's home. Tied at the end of regular time. And at the end of extra time.
We watched nine of the scheduled penalty kicks, and THEN the cable network's time reservation on the satellite feed ran out. **CLICK**
quote:Judging from their performances in the round of 16, That implies that Germany, Argentina, Belgium [at least] are not "top class" , and therefore unlikely to to win the Cup.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
... The difference between top teams and the rest is that top teams make the most of the few chances that come to them.
quote:Yes, it is your defence. if they were any good (a) your goalkeeper wouldn't need to make 16 saves and (b) your defence would be getting possession back to pass through the midfield and forwards to create more scoring chances, which should mean more scoring.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
And yeah, if your goalie makes 16 saves, many of them brilliant, and you don't win, you don't have to look too far to figure out whose fault it is.
quote:Same is true of the World Cup. After some interesting scores in the group games it has come down to four of the usual contenders. All the semi-finalists have been in at least three out of the last ten finals.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
quote:Mmmm.
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
quote:Same is true of the World Cup. After some interesting scores in the group games it has come down to four of the usual contenders. All the semi-finalists have been in at least three out of the last ten finals.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
quote:True! But they can't ALL be runners up, sadly...
Originally posted by orfeo:
The wicked part of me relishes the notion of Netherlands being runners-up again.
quote:I disagree. Spurs will displace Gunners or Liverpool and wind up in 3rd place or better. New coach will spend money and work miracles, just like he did at Southampton.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Pocchetino will probably get the sack for failing to win a trophy.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
quote:In your dreams. Typical Spuds fan, thinking they're bigger than they are.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:I disagree. Spurs will displace Gunners or Liverpool and wind up in 3rd place or better. New coach will spend money and work miracles, just like he did at Southampton.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Pocchetino will probably get the sack for failing to win a trophy.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
)
quote:Pah.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I'd love to see Cesar go out on a high after the way QPR treated him. But the rest of his team is despicable.
quote:and
There was a move lined up for him to Napoli in the summer but he turned it down on the basis that he did not want to return to Italy. In the meantime he has kept on banking a salary of around £70,000 a week, as that World Cup draws ever closer. The best goalkeeper in Brazil is free to spend Saturday afternoons at Westfield shopping centre rather than the other side of Wood Lane at Loftus Road. Either way, it all adds up to a terrible indictment of Cesar’s ambition.
quote:From the Indy.
The logic has simply been that Green has been too consistent to leave out of the side and you only need to look at the plummeting fortunes of Shaun Wright-Phillips under Redknapp to see he doesn’t care much for reputations.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You are such a cheerful soul.
That's football. West Ham and England I like. All other teams I hate. It's just a matter of degree. I just happen to hate Brazil more than Germany.quote:I've never seen someone look so depressed after scoring a goal.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Almost eight nil, but someone fluffed the finish.
And Brazil have now finally scored - a little late ...
quote:They didn't let him train in a World Cup year. That's pathetic. He had to train in the park with his son.
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:Pah.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I'd love to see Cesar go out on a high after the way QPR treated him. But the rest of his team is despicable.
...
quote:They lost two key players, and apparently they did not have the depth / team spirit to make up for it. Before, they did have those two players... And they ran into Germany having a good day.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
But 7-1!? How can a team that bad have got through to the World Cup semi finals?
quote:Really? Did he use jumpers for goalposts? I bet they were expensive ones.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:They didn't let him train in a World Cup year. That's pathetic. He had to train in the park with his son.
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:Pah.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I'd love to see Cesar go out on a high after the way QPR treated him. But the rest of his team is despicable.
...
Not necessary.
As for Green, different opinions.
And I don't trust the Independent that much.
A bit too closs to Harry.
quote:Ouch.
With the exception of some top drawer pre-match pointing, shirt waving and anthem singing, David Luiz has been shocking tonight. He looks like some hungover git from the Dog & Duck who's won a competition to play in a World Cup semi-final for Brazil. He was once again at fault for that goal, which by my estimation, makes him culpable for no fewer than six of the seven his team has shipped tonight.
quote:Sure Brazil took the field without their best attacker and their best organiser of a defence, and Thiago Silva was certainly missed by a totally unorganised defence. But there are so many talented ball-players in Brazil, it's hard to believe that Brazil of all places didn't have enough depth to cover for those missing players. We're not talking about a small country like (say) Costa Rica with a relatively small pool of players.
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:They lost two key players, and apparently they did not have the depth / team spirit to make up for it. Before, they did have those two players... And they ran into Germany having a good day.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
But 7-1!? How can a team that bad have got through to the World Cup semi finals?
We will see how well Argentina plays without Di Maria.
quote:You realise there is still another semi final to go, right?
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, it's the icing on the cake of an excellent World Cup. It was surreal, but very enjoyable.
I suppose the final will be an anti-climax now; but maybe not.
quote:I have two names for you... Arjen Robben and Nigel De Jong.
Originally posted by L'organist:
My sons and their friends take it as a given that Argentina will be in the final - but only because they'll hack and cheat their way there.
quote:Watch the football !!!
Originally posted by deano:
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the spectacle as much as the next man, but I don't feel it truly replaces the week-in-week-out optimism-and-pessimism of club football. Perhaps if there was a transfer window in the world cup, between the group stages and the second round it might be better!
quote:May the best team win? There's no place for being non-partisan in football.
Originally posted by Wesley J:
GOOOOAAAL!
Nah, just kidding.
I think they're doing the national anthems now. May the best team win.
Hopefully Holland will stuff the dirty Argies.
quote:....
Originally posted by Cod:
Really? Did he use jumpers for goalposts? I bet they were expensive ones.
quote:They needed to have saved a sub so they could sub their goalkeeper. I wonder what the calculation is on that: sub during regular play in hopes of getting a goal, or assume it's going to go to penalty kicks and save the sub for then?
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Holland should have subbed their goalkeeper ...
quote:I'm old fashioned. i think players should shake hands to celebrate goals, referees should wear black and goalkeepers should be made to wear green jerseys with 1 on the back!
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Oh, and the whole thing was a foregone conclusion when it went to penalties. There is very conclusive research demonstrating that a goalie wearing a green jersey may as well go have a lie-down by the far post as try to stop anything (if you want to prevail in a PK shootout, wear red--but anything is better than green),
quote:
So. A final where the teams have a Pope each.
)
quote:How are they different teams? The Brazilians played so poorly it is difficult to imagine anyone not thrashing them that day.
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Will the German offense be the one that thrashed Brazil, or the one that barely beat USA?
quote:Yes.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
A good deal for Liverpool. They get 75 million for someone who can't play until October.
quote:They probably will
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
And to think, Liverpool could buy two Andy Carrolls with that money.
quote:Yes, or one and a half Fernando Torres ...
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
And to think, Liverpool could buy two Andy Carrolls with that money.
quote:Boo!
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It has begun ...
quote:Or hope for a fight. It would be funny if they all kicked off.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You can cheer for the linesmen.
quote:He's such a great kid.
Congratulations to #Germany the 2014 World Cup Champions. Germany defeats Argentina 1-0 in extra time. Amazing game by both teams but in the end a late goal in the extra time period ended the dreams of one team and achieved the dreams of another.
quote:Err no. The real thing kicks off on the 16th of August, or the 9th if you follow a non-premiership club.
Originally posted by Cod:
Bother. That's it for another 4 years.
quote:I thought at the end that Germany was playing for penalty kicks too. They were having a lot of possession but didn't seem to be pushing for a goal...until they did! I am very glad it ended with a goal and even more so that it was a well-taken, beautiful goal and not the result of a chance bounce or fluke accident. Goetze took full advantage of his legs being considerably fresher than most of the people on the field!
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I thought it would surely go into penalty kicks, but thankfully it did not! A good result but a bit late in the match.
quote:We've been over this before but what the hey.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:Err no. The real thing kicks off on the 16th of August, or the 9th if you follow a non-premiership club.
Originally posted by Cod:
Bother. That's it for another 4 years.
...
quote:Nonsense. The real thing kicks off with the Southern Premier.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:Err no. The real thing kicks off on the 16th of August, or the 9th if you follow a non-premiership club.
Originally posted by Cod:
Bother. That's it for another 4 years.
quote:Are they on Sky? I don't get Sky so boo if they are but still, good for them as do.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Live coverage of pre-season friendlies is driving Mrs Sioni potty. We're sure it's new.
quote:They have been on BT. Liverpool on Friday, Spurs yesterday. I suppose it's better than talking heads which BT has an awful lot of.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:Are they on Sky? I don't get Sky so boo if they are but still, good for them as do.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Live coverage of pre-season friendlies is driving Mrs Sioni potty. We're sure it's new.
quote:I'm concerned, obviously - troubling, uncertain times on the south coast. But, realistically, what could the Saints management do? Haven't they got a good price for all the players who've gone? I really rate Lovren, for example, and think he'll be great at Liverpool, but is he really a £20million player...?
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What the hell is happening to the Saints? Has Katharina Liebherr gone down to the bookies and put the whole family inheritance on them getting relegated this season? Very disappointed.
quote:Spoken like a True Believer! There's nothing like the optimism of a fan BEFORE the season has started. No goal conceded and anything is still possible.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:I'm concerned, obviously - troubling, uncertain times on the south coast. But, realistically, what could the Saints management do? Haven't they got a good price for all the players who've gone? I really rate Lovren, for example, and think he'll be great at Liverpool, but is he really a £20million player...?
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What the hell is happening to the Saints? Has Katharina Liebherr gone down to the bookies and put the whole family inheritance on them getting relegated this season? Very disappointed.
This article sums up my feelings well. As long as Southampton do bring in several players (I'd be happy with most of those at the bottom of that article - Leroy Fer, Fraser Forster, Serge Gnabry, Vlad Chiriches and Lewis Holtby) and don't get ripped off due to the other clubs knowing Saints are loaded, then I think we'll finish comfortably around mid-table.
And, from what I hear, the academy is that good! So there should be a few top-notch young players who get their chance in the first team this season and, if they do as well as Shaw, Chambers and Ward-Prowse did in 2013-14, then Saints will be just fine.
quote:His avatar would appear to suggest Aldershot Town.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Aren't we all, Mr Grouch, aren't we all? Remind me which team you follow, though - my memory is failing me this morning!
quote:That's the way it should be.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:Spoken like a True Believer! There's nothing like the optimism of a fan BEFORE the season has started. No goal conceded and anything is still possible.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:I'm concerned, obviously - troubling, uncertain times on the south coast. But, realistically, what could the Saints management do? Haven't they got a good price for all the players who've gone? I really rate Lovren, for example, and think he'll be great at Liverpool, but is he really a £20million player...?
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What the hell is happening to the Saints? Has Katharina Liebherr gone down to the bookies and put the whole family inheritance on them getting relegated this season? Very disappointed.
This article sums up my feelings well. As long as Southampton do bring in several players (I'd be happy with most of those at the bottom of that article - Leroy Fer, Fraser Forster, Serge Gnabry, Vlad Chiriches and Lewis Holtby) and don't get ripped off due to the other clubs knowing Saints are loaded, then I think we'll finish comfortably around mid-table.
And, from what I hear, the academy is that good! So there should be a few top-notch young players who get their chance in the first team this season and, if they do as well as Shaw, Chambers and Ward-Prowse did in 2013-14, then Saints will be just fine.
quote:I am v. optimistic that my side will keep up with the other sides and return to the top three for good. Yes, the new man really is as good as sliced bread! He bloody well proved it on the US tour!
Originally posted by Ad Orientem et al:
Spoken like a True Believer! There's nothing like the optimism of a fan BEFORE the season has started. No goal conceded and anything is still possible. That's the way it should be.
quote:Was Vlaar playing or were they keeping him safe? If the latter then Villa can get ready for more results like that!
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Aston Villa – Groningen 1–4!
Too bad it was only a friendly
quote:The clue is in the Avatar!
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Aren't we all, Mr Grouch, aren't we all? Remind me which team you follow, though - my memory is failing me this morning!
quote:He wasn't playing.
deano: Was Vlaar playing or were they keeping him safe?
quote:NY Red Bulls have drawn 10 times this season and Chicago Fire an amazing 13 times! I don't think I've ever seen a league table so dominated by draws.
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
They say Americans don't like draws, but apparently Canadians are absolutely fine with them!
