Ship of Fools: June Book Group - "The Rosie Project" by Graham Simsion

Thread: June Book Group - "The Rosie Project" by Graham Simsion Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

June's Book Group book is The Rosie Project by Graham Simsion. A romance with lots of knock-about comedy, it's an enjoyable read. I'll post some questions up on the 20th, but in the meantime follow the link to find out more about the book and the author.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

I've read it before, but have just ordered it online to take away on holiday .

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

Spotted while doing book selection at work that a follow up, The Rosie Effect will be published in September in the UK.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Got the book from the library yesterday: read about a third of it already. Very entertaining!

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Finished it today - couldn't put it down!

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

I'm booting this further up the page. Anyone else want to join in? It's a quick read, so there is still time.

Edited because I should proof-things properly!

[ 09. June 2014, 08:23: Message edited by: Gussie ]

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

I'm in - just finished it - really enjoyed it.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Thoroughly enjoyed that book. I have friends who have autism who are interesting and funny, just like the hero, and felt that the author really gets it. It was compelling, and hard to put down.

Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :

I've just read it too.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Thoroughly enjoyed that book. I have friends who have autism who are interesting and funny, just like the hero, and felt that the author really gets it.

Do you mean the author gets what it's like to be autistic, or gets what it's like to have autistic friends? I haven't read it yet, and have been meaning to read it for ages, although I'm always a little wary of novels that are supposedly from an autistic perspective when the author is not on the autism spectrum, because often the character is a mishmash of stereotypes without an individual personality.

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

I'm third in line for the book. Our library system only has one. Hopefully the other two find it as unputdownable as some of you have indicated, and I'll get it in time to join in!

Or to join in a month late again. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

Quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Thoroughly enjoyed that book. I have friends who have autism who are interesting and funny, just like the hero, and felt that the author really gets it.

Fine Line replied:

quote:
Do you mean the author gets what it's like to be autistic, or gets what it's like to have autistic friends? I haven't read it yet, and have been meaning to read it for ages, although I'm always a little wary of novels that are supposedly from an autistic perspective when the author is not on the autism spectrum, because often the character is a mishmash of stereotypes without an individual personality.

This is one of the things I think will be interesting to discuss, so can we hold off talking about it, until everyone has had a chance to finish the book?

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

I read this novel when I was reading several other novels by or about people on the autism spectrum. I am on the spectrum myself, so I was hoping to find some realistic depictions of life as an Aspie.

I read "The Rosie Project" first, then "Stim" by Kevin Berry, who is himself on the autism spectrum. Last I read "The Stages: A Novel" by Thom Satterlee, who is not on the spectrum. I won't comment on their respective merits, though, as the discussion of "The Rosie Project" hasn't begun yet.

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :

I quite like the idea of joining in with the Ship book club threads and I actually *could*, now, what with having some spendable money and this here ebook reader...

*buys*

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Loaded to Kindle - will see how fast I get through it. Lots of travelling and waiting around for the next few days.

There was a very long queue for the library copies. As I still haven't heard about the last book I reserved that had a queue and library books don't go to work as they set off other local authority library alarms I didn't bother trying that route.

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :

The above are right when they say it's a quick read; I got three-quarters of the way through it between getting in from the theatre and falling asleep last night. If you have multiple days of lots of waiting and travelling I would recommend lining up a second book to get you through it!

(Which reminds me - must work out what I'm reading on the plane tomorrow...)

[ 19. June 2014, 10:01: Message edited by: Persephone Hazard ]

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :

Have now finished. Liked it! Am looking forward to discussing it a bit with you all :-)

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

I'll post up some questions tomorrow, unless anyone wants a few more days to finish it.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Don't worry about me - I won't click on this thread until I've finished reading - which won't be long at the speed I'm getting through this. e-readers are a much easier way to take books on my commute.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

I have to take it back to the library tomorrow: will renew it or re-read it today or Saturday....

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

Rightio - here are some questions - feel free to add any others you'd like to discuss.

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

I'm not an expert on autism. I suspect that overall the portrayal is reasonable. However there's a suggestion that the love of the right person can "fix" some of the limitations Don's condition and that made me uneasy. There's also the perennial question of any comic story with a non-typical hero of whether we're being invited to laugh at or with them.

Having said that I did enjoy the book, Don as a character and most of the humour. I will be very interested to hear what others with more understanding of autism made of it.

quote:
2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

Yes because I think it has the same effect in the end. Don's "reliable narration" only extends to bare facts so we still have the tension/frisson/comedy of a gap between the narrator's version story and the rest of the characters.

quote:
3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

I think it's got film written all over it and would definitely work as such. Not sure it would be better though, just different. The novel has internal monologue going for it which is a big part of this story.

quote:
4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

See above re: Q1. I do think it was where this story, as it was set up, wanted to go. I think a happy ending with a slightly less rosy (sorry!) view of the world would have been possible. As Good As It Gets manages this balance better for me.

quote:
5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?[/b]

Mildly interesting, can take or leave it.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

In my position as a supply teacher, I spent exactly one day out of 14 school terms with kids who were autistic: they were all under age 12. I had two very proficient paraprofessionals doing the dirty work for me, such as changing diapers on every pupil and seeing that they ate their lunch and that the higher-funcioning among them could see limited sites on the classroom computers. One boy spent the entire afternoon looking at a website for a major film studio. He listened to and viewed every possible variation of the studio's stock opening credits and its theme song. It was really annoying! Other pupils seemed to exhibit some OCD behaviours. The class usually has two certified teachers: I did the work of both of them with my paras doing yeoman duty! I would take that class again if I knew both of the paras were going to be there.

I would say that I don't know enough about the disease to say 'yes' for sure....

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

I am not familiar with that term, new as I am to the world of actually writing novels: I completed the first one I did for NaNoWriMo at the beginning of this year: three months late! The second one is roughed out and has a working title. I thought Don was a bit obsessive-compulsive but did not know his character was autistic! I purposely did not read any synopsis of the plot other than what was supplied by Gussie when this book was assigned for discussion. I think Professor Till's first-person narrative was very good.

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

Fancy a genetics professor who was a black belt in martial arts! I really enjoyed the incident with the jacket, which apparently cost well over £500 and I was fascinated with the way the professor obsessed about everybody's Body Mass Index. It was so much more entertaining than having him say "She is so skinny I think I'm going to refer to her a 'Stick Girl' or "He is just a big fat slob!" This sort of narrative made me think hard and attempt mental arithmetic.

I think that Hugh Laurie could make a good Professor Till. If it was serialized as a BBC radio play, Dawn French could play Rosy: she has the sort of voice I fancy in that role, but she is well over age 27 and has too large a real-life BMI to work on a film.

I could play one of the American characters on the radio.

I'm still thinking....

Thinking done. How about television actress Honeysuckle Weeks with a Wonderbra as Rosie? Doesn't she already have red hair, at least most of the time?

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

It's definitely the latter! I waited so long for them to finally make love I could hardly stand the suspense: I feared that the professor would just let Rosie slip through his fingers and that, of course, would have ruled out a sequel which I am now waiting for on tenterhooks.

This reminds me of my favourite joke: it was a big hit when I told it during "open mic night" down the pub:

A university professor was telling his 8 AM class: First thing in the morning, I get up and take a cold shower. Then I feel rosy all over. A hand goes up in the back of the lecture hall: "Tell us more about Rosie!"

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?

Dunno. I'm afraid that my book was published in the wrong country!

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

I don't know too much about autism but what I do know corresponds to Don's character.
I loved that he was a sympathetic character who, though he seemed unaware that he was autistic, worked hard at changing his behaviour to fit in with social norms in order to have a satisfactory relationship. I also loved the humour, and that he used his special traits such as his memory to his advantage.

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

Yes, it was refreshing. He analyses others' reactions to his behaviour and examines their responses which is funny, touching, and keeps us abreast of the plot.

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

Yes, it would so work, the jacket incident and the cocktail reunion especially. Christopher Reeve would have been good as Don, possibly Geena Davies as Rosie.

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

Was very relieved by the ending, I love a happy one!

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?

I can take them or leave them. The questionnaire was very amusing though.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

My wife, Z on the Ship, will be reading it later today after her book club meets in person a few hours from now!

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

Well, I found it a bit wooden and robotic as a portrayal of how an Aspie thinks and feels on the inside. From my personal experience as someone on the spectrum, we do have a lot of emotion, but because we express it differently to the way that non-autistic people usually express emotion we often look to them like we are calm and unemotional when we are not. At least, I get people saying I look calm and relaxed when I am on edge and slightly (or even more than slightly) stressed.

Our interior emotional life is something that non-autistic people are likely to miss when they observe Aspies from the outside using non-autistic filters for interpreting Aspie behaviour and emotional expression. I guess I didn't find this book "getting" the interior life.

Basically this novel is an outsider's perception of autism, but presented as a first hand narrative. That also makes me feel a little uncomfortable, as there is a long history of non-autistic people speaking "for" the autistic population, who are often assumed to be unable to speak for ourselves.

In relation to some minorities western society have moved on from talking about them, to listening to them. We would probably not expect a book about the experience of being a black person to be written by a white person, for example. I would prefer to read fiction written by someone on the spectrum, if the protagonist is on the spectrum.

On my "to read" list at the moment is a book by someone with cerebral palsy. I want to hear the insider's account, not some external "I imagine they feel like this". Similarly, I was fascinated by a TED talk by a person with schizophrenia who was talking about hearing voices and what it meant to her.

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?

None in my ebook, as far as I can see.

"6". How does this book compare to other novels about a person on the spectrum, such as "Stim" or "The Stages"?

From a literary point of view I enjoyed "The Stages" the most. It was very descriptive of Copenhagen and an interesting discussion of the Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard, set in the context of a murder mystery. The author is not on the spectrum, however.

From a psychological point of view I found "Stim" the most engaging. The author is on the spectrum and has a couple of interesting first hand descriptions of medication-induced manic episodes. When the protagonist goes out on his motor cycle and gets into scrape after scrape, his hyperactive thought processes really do make you feel like you are inside his head, bouncing from one wild plan to the next.

All three novels have a somewhat academic setting: "Rosie" is about a university lecturer, "Stim" is about one (or two) students at university, and "The Stages" is about a graduate who works at a cultural research centre (studying manuscripts of Kierkegaard). All three are set in "non-Atlantic" locations - "Rosie" in Melbourne, "Stim" in Christchurch, and "The Stages" in Copenhagen. All three have some romantic angle: in the case of "Rosie" and "The Stages" it is an understanding non-autistic female (or two, in the case of "The Stages"), while "Stim" narrates the relationship between two students who are both on the autism spectrum. "Stim" also has, as one of its core elements, the city of Christchurch and its momentous earthquake, which tears apart both the city and the lives of the students in the novel. So "Stim" could be seen as a novel about two autistic university students coping with each other and the big earthquake.

Of the three, "Rosie" is the one I am probably least likely to read again. I have already read the sequel to "Stim". In the case of "The Stages", the novel is as much about Copenhagen and Kierkegaard as it is about the autistic protagonist - for example, the protagonist visits cafes in Copenhagen that Kierkegaard used to frequent and reflects on SK's life. As I have studied philosophy and have been to Copenhagen, I found these aspects very interesting. It isn't just a book about "how quaint and eccentric Aspies can be".

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

I want to say first of all that I really enjoyed the book, and would probably pick up something else by the same author. So, if anyone is reading, any critical comments below should be taken in that light.

In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree? I think he has taken on board many key points about people with high-functioning ASD, but I do wonder how many such people he actually worked with or socialised with. I thought, at the beginning, that I wasn't going to be able to tolerate Don, because I felt he was a bit of a caricature, and I didn't find it plausible that he seemingly had no insight into his own condition. And then somehow, later, he suddenly seems to have acquired that insight. I wonder whether a real-life Don would have broken the rules about lab use quite so readily, and I wonder if such a person really would have been comfortable with the idea of the cocktail evening, and would have coped as well as he did.
A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device? There is some scope for irony as we read between the lines of Don's narrative, but I think in literary terms this is a marshmallow, not a side of roast beef. You can great depth from a narrator with ASD tendencies but I don't think that's what Simsion was striving for here.
The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts? Having just seen a stage version of 'The curious incident (etc)' I think a film version of this could work, though whether it would be better would be another matter. I think there would be a real danger of Don appearing as mainly laughable and of him being sort-of 'cured' by love at the end – which would be appalling.
Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending? Well, first this: to make it romantic, you have to have the misunderstandings and the fallings-out before the big coming together (if you'll pardon the expression) at the end. But, wouldn't someone as smart as Rosie 'get' Don quite quickly? Would she really allow herself to be phased by comment like the one about not having considered whether she's beautiful? Actually, I was disappointed that she even asked that – and, for God's sake, why did she have to be beautiful? Wasn't it enough that she was clever and funny and smart? Though, given that she was smart, might it not have occurred to her earlier, given her lack of trust in men, that Don's bluntness had certain advantages?

Next this: although people with ASD can learn to adapt quite well to the NT (neurologically typical) world, I am not sure that they can adapt quite as fast and quite as dramatically as Don appears to do. Clearly, the book needed a romantic ending, but I don't know that it needed Don to make such a big change.
At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionnaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercise, or something in between? There were some interesting comments from the author, but on the whole, I didn't find it that appealing and I think it comes a bit close to treating people with ASD as figures of fun. And that kind-of fits with the way I feel the book rather downplays the painful side of ASD.

eta: x-posted with MSHB, so haven't read all of that yet, but concur with points made in relation to question 1.

[ 21. June 2014, 14:58: Message edited by: QLib ]

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I would say that I don't know enough about the disease to say 'yes' for sure....

I don't know what others on the spectrum will say, but for my part PLEASE don't refer to autism as a "disease".

Diseases are negative, but autism can confer both strengths and weaknesses. As a major clinician is fond of saying, "People with Asperger's syndrome don't suffer from Asperger's syndrome. No. People with Asperger's suffer from other people."

A significant part of "high functioning" autism, including Asperger's, is living in a world, the social world, where the rules have been made by the non-autistic majority.

Just as the majority used to erect buildings that only make allowances for people who can walk (and used to build universities with no facilities for females), so the modern world runs on unspoken rules developed by the non-autistic, for the non-autistic. People on the spectrum experience a lot of exclusion, both deliberate exclusion (e.g. bullying) and systemic exclusion (the rules ignore our needs, and only provide for the needs of the non-autistic).

A significant part of Asperger's is social disadvantage : living in a society not designed for us.

As Temple Grandin (famous US autistic) is fond of saying: We are different, not defective.

Sure autistic people would like to remove the weaknesses they face but there definitely are fun aspects to being autistic. I don't like being anxious or depressed (the latter not so much an issue now), but I enjoy the Aspie mind, the Aspie special interests (it is like being in love, except it is with a subject rather than a person). I don't want to lose my autistic strengths, my autistic personality and individuality, just the weaknesses that cause me or other people significant difficulties. I want to be a better Aspie, not a neurotypical (non-autistic person) - and that is why I am not "diseased".

When I go to Medieval tournaments with lots of Aspie knights, or to open source programming conferences where I can practically feel the autism genes in the air, it is a blast. Finally, the social minority disadvantage is removed, I am with my own kind, and I really enjoy it. Aspie fun.

For more information, try this discussion of changing the whole attitude to "Aspies", including replacing "diagnosis" with "discovery" (as in discovering an actor or a genius): http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79%3Athe-discovery-of-aspie-criteria

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?
I think I agree with MSHB and QLib that this is a bit of a caracature of autism. For the sort of lightweight novel this was, I think this works fine. On re-reading the fact that Don seems very unaware of how his behaviour differes from perceived 'norms' grated a bit

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?
I enjoyed this as a comic device, Don's view of Gene's behaviour for instance, and thought it worked well.

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?
I'm really surprised a film hasn't come out yet. IMDB has it as in progress. It is very much in the vein of a screwball comendy such as 'Bringing Up Baby'. Don is likened to Cary Grant and I could imagine a similar sort of actor playing the role.The book has a very much the 'nutty professor' portrayal of autism/asperger's syndrome.

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?
I really liked the ending call me a sentimental old fluff if you will. It was in keeping with the rest of the book. I particualrly liked Don's baseball friends.

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?
I find this sort of thing slightly annoying, but haven't really analysed why I think that. Maybe it's somethign to do with the merchandising that surrounds books and films at the moment.

6. (MSHB's question) How does this book compare to other novels about a person on the spectrum, such as "Stim" or "The Stages"?
Not read either of those. I found Mark Haddon's 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nightime' a more convincing portrait of someone on the autistic spectrum. The panic when Christopher is lost on the underground for instance. It's so convincing that someone I know thought it was autobiographical (which I don't think it is).

One thing that struck me was that although the New York bits of the book struck a cord with my one expereicne of the city as a tourist I found it very difficult to get a sense of place about the main setting of the book. I know it's set in Australia (Melbourne?), but I didn't really get an inkling about what it was like to live there.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I would say that I don't know enough about the disease to say 'yes' for sure....
I don't know what others on the spectrum will say, but for my part PLEASE don't refer to autism as a "disease".

Sorry for the mis-step: I am not an academic nor am I a medical doctor as my great-grandfather was. I am only a supply teacher in local grammar schools and of course I have heard of Miss Grandin.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

I started reading this today. I haven't got very far yet, so i can't answer the questions yet, but so far I am agreeing with MSHB about the stereotypes, and the fact that it sounds more like how a non-autistic person interprets how an autistic person's mind works from how that person expresses themselves, rather than what's really going on in the person's head. I have to read the whole book to get a better perspective though.

I'm not sure I agree with Gussie that the fact it's a lightweight novel means that it's okay to be stereotypical about a certain group of people.

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

Fineline said:

quote:
I'm not sure I agree with Gussie that the fact it's a lightweight novel means that it's okay to be stereotypical about a certain group of people.

Sorry if I phrased what I said badly. I don't think Simsion was being stereotypical as such, just taking what are perceived to be the dominant traits of Aperger's Syndrome and using it for comic effect. In this sort of book I didn't expect a serious examination of behavior on the autistic spectrum. It's a bit like someone writing about a dyslexic and using the best known dyslexic trait, misreading words, for comic effect. Yes you could use other traits associated with dyslexia, not understanding time for instance, but maybe that wasn't needed for your story.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
Fineline said:

quote:
I'm not sure I agree with Gussie that the fact it's a lightweight novel means that it's okay to be stereotypical about a certain group of people.
Sorry if I phrased what I said badly. I don't think Simsion was being stereotypical as such, just taking what are perceived to be the dominant traits of Aperger's Syndrome and using it for comic effect. In this sort of book I didn't expect a serious examination of behavior on the autistic spectrum. It's a bit like someone writing about a dyslexic and using the best known dyslexic trait, misreading words, for comic effect. Yes you could use other traits associated with dyslexia, not understanding time for instance, but maybe that wasn't needed for your story.

See, as an Aspie myself, I'd say he is being stereoptypical - it's clear he is not on the autism spectrum himself. As MHSB said, the idea that people on the autism spectrum have no emotions is simply wrong. They can appear that way, due to difficulty expression emotions but if you actually see what's going on in an autistic person's head (and this book is supposedly from the perspective of someone on the autism spectrum) it is a very different matter. In fact, all the Aspie guys I know who are as socially impaired as this character also suffer a great deal with depression and anxiety. It think it's quite a harmful stereotype to perpetrate, because a lot of people really believe that people on the autism spectrum have no emotions, and if people think you don't have emotions, it has a very negative impact on the way they treat you.

I guess I don't think it's appropriate for someone not on the autism spectrum to be writing a book of humour at the expense of people who are. Not that there isn't a lot of humour to be found in autism and Aspergers, but I'd say it's more for people on the autism spectrum to be writing. There's a difference between someone from a minority group creating humour about their own group and someone from the majority group creating humour about the minority group.

Having said that, the book is interesting so far - I am curious to see what the author will do with the characters. He seems to be also on the side of people with Aspergers and challenging those who want to make them become 'normal'. It's just a shame that his idea of what goes on in an Aspie brain is so stereotyped and partly based on misconception. I will read the whole thing and then post more thoughts on it.

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
In fact, all the Aspie guys I know who are as socially impaired as this character also suffer a great deal with depression and anxiety.

Count me in too.

I suffered from depression during my teens (age 14) and anxiety and stress still, and I don't see myself as quite as socially impaired as the character in the book.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

quote:
1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

Simsion has used the kinds of incidents that people on the spectrum can get caught up in, but the thought processes don't ring true to me. I have and am working with students on the autistic spectrum and have a neighbour who is an Aspie.

One particularly true moment was his thoughts on Jane the convener of the Aspie family session - when she touched him. He'd obviously been taught the social skill rule that touching people can get you into trouble for sexual harassment, but not all the other finer understandings when such touch could be appropriate. And my mind riffed off into trying to explain those nuances to some of the students I work with, or the neighbour.

quote:
2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

It works as a plot device, but his thought processes aren't really that consistent for an Aspie. If his needs are to have such a structured environment, then taking him out of his comfort zone is likely to put him into a very anxious state, when he is unlikely to do much other than panic. If he can cope with that much change, then why the structure?

quote:
3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

Yes, they struck me too, but I think the film could ridicule Don too much.

quote:
4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

Too impossibly romantic.

quote:
5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?

I had them too on the Kindle version. Read the questionnaire but skimmed the recipes.

I started by finding this book entertaining - the talk to the Aspie families and establishing the routines, but the inconsistencies made it drag through the middle section although I did laugh at the mental image of experimenting with a skeleton to learn positions. But again, why did a geneticist have a skeleton in his office?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

mm - and Don's alcohol use in The Rosie Project ... my Aspie neighbour has a drink problem. He has agreed that he uses alcohol to self-medicate the overload from sounds around him, his loneliness and social difficulties. He self harms. One particularly memorable occasion when he was drinking and self-harming it took 3 car loads of police armed with taser guns to subdue and section him. And he is less autistic than Don is described at the beginning of the book.

The other adult Aspie I know living in the community is an alcoholic.

One of the Aspie kids I worked with had a mother I wondered about. She drank. Had to be banned from school after hitting the headteacher. She was drunk at the time. Made the kid's support meetings a bit interesting.

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

This is a bit of a tangent from the book, but does it matter that Simsion created his version of autism/Asperger's Syndrom for the purposes of the novel? In fiction the author creates the world, and although it might look like the world we know, that isn't neccessarily true. I'm thinking of books like The Fault in our Stars , where the main character is alive due to a drug that doesn't actually exsist in the 'real' world.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I was wondering why I was irritated because suspension of belief is necessary to read many books, I think it is because Autism and Asperger's are badly misunderstood and having a mainstream book add to those misunderstandings is frustrating.

[ 30. June 2014, 07:31: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

After digesting this book for a week, here is my poke at the questions.

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

I am certainly not an expert on autism, but the brilliance of Don is very like all the people I know personally who are autistic.

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

Hmm, that may be why I had to really force myself to read the first half of the book. I was not enjoying it, and I came very close to just putting it down and forgetting about it. The last half was much easier to read. Perhaps I just needed to get used to the narrative style?

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

No! It was painful enough to read; I don't think I could stand watching a movie of it!

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

It was a very romantic ending! It just screamed 'Fairytale"! Actually, the ending was just about my favorite part of the book.

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercize, or something in between?

I tend to enjoy additions like that. Unfortunately, the book I was reading had none of the ones mentioned here.

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

Not really; to me, as to others, this book really did read like a caricature or stereotype of people with autism or Aspergers and it seemed very clear indeed that the author was not himself on the spectrum. I am not on the spectrum myself either - far from it - but I have two close friends with Aspergers, a cousin with serious autism, a mother who taught classes of spectrum kids for some years and a large social group where all points of the spectrum are well-represented among my acquaintances; none of them are scientific or mathematical geniuses, and they are all more emotional and less robotic than many of these 'classically' autistic characters by a country mile. Someone upthread quoted something about "those on the spectrum suffering not from autism, but from other people" that rings very true. Like Sheldon Cooper in TBBT or Abed Nadir in Community, I found him a compelling and likable character who was very definitely a character and did not much remind me of my close friends on the spectrum.

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?

Very much so, in context. I won't deny that it's comedic and makes for enjoyable reading.

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?

I think it would work differently as a film. Jennifer Lawrence would make a good Rosie, I suspect; Hugh Laurie I reckon would be better as Gene than as Don. Don himself I suppose I pictured as Jim Parsons, but the reasons for that are far too obvious to entertain and probably not worth thinking about!

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?

I really like the occasional romantic ending; I don't think it's the duty of fiction to always be realistic.

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercise, or something in between?

I always read them with mild interest, but I have no particular liking of them.

[ 01. July 2014, 12:56: Message edited by: Persephone Hazard ]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
This is a bit of a tangent from the book, but does it matter that Simsion created his version of autism/Asperger's Syndrom for the purposes of the novel? In fiction the author creates the world, and although it might look like the world we know, that isn't neccessarily true. I'm thinking of books like The Fault in our Stars , where the main character is alive due to a drug that doesn't actually exsist in the 'real' world.

It's not really his own version of autism. It's a common stereotype. I suppose you could compare it to the stereotype that mentally ill people are scary and dangerous. When books/films/Halloween costumes perpetuate this stereotype, it does a lot of harm. Your logic doesn't really make sense. Drugs are trialled all the time. That has nothing to do with how groups of people are represented. If it was a novel by a straight man writing the perspective of a gay man, making him weak and emotionally incontinent and a bit of a drama queen, and often a figure of mockery as a result, and it is clear that these characteristics are seen as being because he is gay, would this be a case of the author creating his own version of homosexuality, or would it be a case of misrepresentation of a group of people?

I still haven't finished reading the novel. I am actually finding it increasingly patronising, insulting, and completely misinformed. I'm at the bit where Rosie and Ron are on the plane home from New York. Rosie asks Ron how he is feeling, Ron says 'Confused', and Rosie says 'Welcome to the real world'. This conversation pretty much epitomises the misconceptions of the author - the idea that people with Aspergers are silly scaredy cats, playing it safe, never taking risks, making lots of silly rules and rituals to escape from the messiness of the real world.

In reality, the rules and rituals made by people with Aspergers are a necessary tool to make some sense of the world when your brain doesn't automatically do so. They are necessary to function and be independent - much as a wheelchair is for someone with a mobility disability. So when Rosie is cajoling, teasing, bullying Don for the way he does things, that's kind of like an able-bodied person trying to tell a guy in a wheelchair that he should ditch the wheelchair and enjoy life more, and teasing him about it, saying he's like an old man (which Rosie actually says to Don). Someone in a wheelchair may be able to get out and walk for a bit, with great effort, but it's highly unlikely they're then going to be saying that was the best day of their life - in reality they will be utterly exhausted. And so it is with someone on the autism spectrum.

Anyway, the bit where Rosie says 'Welcome to the real world' - that's kind of like the able-bodied person, after forcing the guy in the wheelchair to walk for a couple of days, asking him how he's feeling, and when he says 'Tired', replying with 'Welcome to the real world'. It's insulting. And ridiculous. Being confused is a huge part of being on the autism spectrum - when your brain doesn't automatically take in meaning and the big picture, but focuses on details and doesn't filter out the irrelevant, you need a whole system of external organisation to help you process stuff consciously and intellectually, to lessen the confusion. It's exhausting but necessary. To be mocked for it and told to abandon it is unhelpful. And it really doesn't result in having the best day of your life. Nor does it result in you 'getting quite good at social subtleties,' as happens to Don

Why this is quite a harmful representation of autism is that there are people who think like this - who believe that the 'rigid' routines that people on the autism spectrum create are silly and stopping them enjoy life, and that they should be discarded. That jollying autistic people into 'enjoying life' in a neurotypical way will help them learn social skills. And this affects how people on the autism spectrum are treated - particularly those in education or in care. They can be deprived of the very strategies that are helping them function and thrive.

I actually think this would be quite a fun book if Asperger Syndrome were just completely taken out of it. If Don were just a quirky, somewhat unrealistic character. And if all references to sensory overload and emotional overload were removed - because although Don mentions these terms a lot, he really doesn't appear to suffer from them. It is rather bizarre that he describes himself pretty much in Asperger clinical terms while having no idea that he has Aspergers. The people I know with Aspergers, myself included, only use those terms when they've identified their Aspergers and been able to acquire a vocabulary for what they experience from reading the literature. In reality, people on the autism spectrum have a lot of difficulty processing and expressing feelings, and this is made harder by the fact of having no way of knowing that your sensory experiences and processing mechanisms are different from the norm. Only when you know you have Aspergers and read about it do you start to get the vocabulary to put your experience into words.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Okay, I've finished reading it now. I will answer the questions.

1. In the discussion above Stercus Tauri thought Simsion really understands autism. Do you agree?

No, I don't agree. Well, he understands it according to the way it has been understood by non-autistic 'experts' on autism in the past, but now that autistic people have been given more of a voice to express their own experiences, it is slowly being recognised that these stereotypes simply aren't true. The 'lack of empathy' stereotype being one big example - now it is recognised that people on the autism spectrum do experience empathy, but aren't always able to express it, or don't think to express it. And I know for myself, I can seem like I don't have empathy in a conversation because I don't automatically process other people's reactions to me - this requires conscious switching from my perspective to theirs, which is hard work, as my brain doesn't multitask, and when I'm tired, it doesn't always happen. But this is very different from not having empathy.

2. A lot of novels hinge on the 'unreliable narrator'. Don is an almost too reliable one, do you think this works as a narrative device?
Well, you could call him unreliable as actually making sense of the world requires reading between the lines, and reading other people, which he doesn't do. Reliable doesn't mean stating scientific facts and someone's approximate BMI. Everyone filters the world according to their own thought processes and priorities, so any narrator is unreliable from that angle.

3. The thing that really struck me about this book was the comic set pieces, which were very visual. Simsion said that he originally wrote it as a screenplay, do you think it would work better as a film. Any actors you would like to see in the main parts?
Yes, it would be funny as a film. It is very visual. It would be a lot better if all references to Aspergers were omitted and Don were just an odd character.

4. Do you think the ending is too impossibly romantic or is it the sort of book that needs that sort of ending?
It's what I expect from this sort of book. The whole thing was unrealistic, so of course the ending was too.

5. At the back of my book there is Don's partnership questionaire, recipes and a link to The Rosie Project Web site . Do you find such extras an enjoyable addition to your reading experience, an annoying marketing exercise, or something in between?
I didn't have this at the back of my copy. I'd have been quite curious to read the questionnaire, but in general once the book is over, I don't like to read appendices.

6. (MSHB's question) How does this book compare to other novels about a person on the spectrum, such as "Stim" or "The Stages"?
I haven't read those two. In some ways it is quite similar to The Curious Incident in that the author describes the logical thought processes but has no idea how to describe the emotional experience. In The Curious Incident the protagonist simply blanks out when he has strong emotions - loses all memory of what happens, as if he had DID rather than autism. In The Rosie Project the protagonist simply doesn't express feelings at all. Also The Curious Incident perpetuates the stereotype that people on the autism spectrum have no empathy. So it has similar faults to that book, although The Curious Incident was a lot better at depicting sensory overload.

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
This conversation pretty much epitomises the misconceptions of the author - the idea that people with Aspergers are silly scaredy cats, playing it safe, never taking risks, making lots of silly rules and rituals to escape from the messiness of the real world.

Reminds me of yet another stereotype - the idea that inside a person on the spectrum there is a "normal" person trying to get out. So if they would only stop being autistic they would magically come alive and live happily ever after.

One of the reasons I am glad I got my diagnosis is that, with age (I am over sixty), it has become harder to put on the neurotypical act. The real truth is that inside a seeming neurotypical there may be an Aspie working very hard to keep up the act ... and going home exhausted, needing hours of alone time to recover.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Reminds me of yet another stereotype - the idea that inside a person on the spectrum there is a "normal" person trying to get out. So if they would only stop being autistic they would magically come alive and live happily ever after.

Yep, and that stereotype seems to be in this book too - the idea that Don has never really enjoyed life until Rosie introduces him to living outside of his schedule, and forces him to do things differently. The author seems to have no concept of the really intense joy that autistic people can have in focusing on specialised interests. He seems to think that being autistic is dull and sheltered and not living in the 'real world', and that a Rosie-type neurotypical rescuer is necessary.

Don didn't really seem to have any really intense interests, I thought - just a sort of generalised systemising. He didn't really seem to have any personality outside of his supposed Asperger traits. I found it rather bizarre that he was estimating the BMI of each person he met - unless body weight and BMI were a particular interest of his (which they didn't appear to be), there would be no reason why an autistic person would do this. It just serves to heighten the stereotype that he's a human computer.

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
The real truth is that inside a seeming neurotypical there may be an Aspie working very hard to keep up the act ... and going home exhausted, needing hours of alone time to recover.

Yep. That would be me. And most of us, I think, who have to go to work and interact with people. Playing the clown, as Don does, can work sometimes, when people know you well and are fond of you, but most of the time social interactions tend to be pretty awkward - I don't know any autistic person who is able to always play the clown successfully. The scene where he and Rosie are serving drinks to that reunion party struck me as really bizarre. Even if he had the magical ability (which the vast majority of autistic people don't - it's another stereotype!) to memorise the details of hundreds of cocktails, it would be a lot harder to come up with these details on tap in a noisy, busy social environment. I am a lot more socially experienced and able than Don appears to be, and I would find such an environment really, really exhausting. The multitasking it required would be too much for me. (The author seems unaware that autistic people don't multitask.) And yet Don is energised by the experience - as if it's taken him out of his limited autistic 'shell' and given him a taste of rich reality!

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I was wondering why I was irritated because suspension of belief is necessary to read many books, I think it is because Autism and Asperger's are badly misunderstood and having a mainstream book add to those misunderstandings is frustrating.

Yes. This. I happily suspend disbelief for a fun book, and if there had been no mention of Aspergers or sensory overload or any of that, and Don were just an eccentric character, I would have found the novel humorous and fun, albeit unrealistic. But the whole Aspergers thing made it really frustrating.

Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :

I've been reading all these comments with interest. I haven't read The Rosie project, but as the parent of Persephone's aforementioned autistic cousin, I think it would only make me cross.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The book that I liked that portrayed a man with ASD without making a big thing of it was Salmon Fishing on the Yemen by Paul Torday. It's a tiny reference somewhere in the story (which is told through letters, e-mails, memoranda, etc) but comes over in the social awkwardness. I'm not sure how the film handled this although the Wikipedia entry refers to this. But others I know hate that book can't see the humour.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Okay, I've finished reading it now. I will answer the questions.

Yes, it would be funny as a film. It is very visual. It would be a lot better if all references to Aspergers were omitted and Don were just an odd character.

I agree. I thought for some time that Don was just a bit odd and had weak social skills.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Something else that struck me as a bit odd/off about this book, which hasn't yet been mentioned, was the depiction of Rosie's feminism. I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. On the one hand, Rosie is an strong-minded, independent woman who despises men who treat women like objects. But then, through Don, we see her feminism as a bit inconsistent - she wants Don to see her as physically attractive, she describes herself as a 'girl', etc. All these inconsistencies are drawn attention to in great detail by Don. It seems like the author uses Don, as the 'naive' autistic narrator, to perhaps make fun of feminism in a way that would normally be considered inappropriate.

And then Rosie declares that she's messed up because of her father and that this has had a negative impact on the way she relates to men - so suddenly it seems like her attitudes are not feminism as such, but due to some dysfunction from the way her dad treated her. And then we learn that actually her dad isn't the villain she makes him out to be - that he had her best interests at heart, and that the thing she was resenting him for was one small broken promise, made when his wife had died and he was in a wheelchair. So her feminist ideas are continually undermined in different ways.

The result was that I found myself very aware that the book was written by a male author. And not quite sure exactly what to make of his depiction of Rosie and her feminism - whether it was a comment on feminists in general, whether he was using the autistic narrator to make social commentary that might otherwise be considered sexist, etc.

Posted by Zeke (# 3271) on :

1. I couldn't really say, not being on the spectrum myself. I myself "dicovered" Don as an Aspie by p. 5, and found his lecture on the subject both ironic (since he doesn't recognize himself as being part of the group that was there) and very funny (I loved the part where he instigated the revolt by the Aspies who were at the lecture). According to the people who have posted here who are on the spectrum themselves, the depiction is somewhat inaccurate, being from an outsider. I would be interested in their assessment of "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time", not knowing whether the author is depicting ASD people accurately there either.

2. I agree with some who say that in some ways Don is an unreliable narrator, due to his lack of insight into many aspects of what is going on. However, his descriptions of the scenes and details of the situations he is in are very clear and make everything easy to understand most of the time.

3. I think this would make a great film, along the lines of "Rain Man," which may also strike the ASD people here as inaccurate, but did indeed give some insight into what a person like this may be coping with (although it may also be seen as insulting by an insider). No actors come to mind at this time.

4. I really loved the ending, though it is a little too romantic for some people. You needed for Don and Rosie to find happiness together. However, I suspect that Don's ability to "fix" himself may be insulting to people here who have posted as insiders to this way of life. It is true, however, that it is suggested that a lot of the aspects of Don's identity as an ASD person are actually quite endearing to Rosie, and that she actually doesn't like some of the changes he has made to the way he presents to the world.

5. I didn't look at this, not realizing I had it in the copy I was reading, and didn't notice anything like that if it was there. The book has already been returned to the library, so I can't go back to it. I do usually enjoy these things when I read them.

I almost put the book down at the beginning because it seemed so dry, but I kept with it and began to really like Don and be very amused by his observations. The Asperger's lecture was just great and totally hooked me on the book if I hadn't been hooked yet. It was just delightful to realize that Don is slowly falling in love with Rosie, as he continues to describe her as "unsuitable."

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zeke:
According to the people who have posted here who are on the spectrum themselves, the depiction is somewhat inaccurate, being from an outsider. I would be interested in their assessment of "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time", not knowing whether the author is depicting ASD people accurately there either.

...

3. I think this would make a great film, along the lines of "Rain Man," which may also strike the ASD people here as inaccurate, but did indeed give some insight into what a person like this may be coping with (although it may also be seen as insulting by an insider).

I have never read "The Curious Incident" nor watched "Rain Man". Neither of them attracts me, nor has anything I have read or heard about them suggested to me that they would help me understand myself better as someone on the spectrum who was only diagnosed in middle age and wants to learn more about myself.

Fineline does discuss The Curious Incident (TCI) earlier in this thread and says that TCI does not deal very well with the inner emotional life of the person on the spectrum. So I am guessing - from that and other things I have read about it elsewhere - that TCI is not a faithful depiction of what it is like to be on the spectrum. That is certainly one of the reasons I have not wanted to read it myself: too many people on the spectrum have rated it down.

As for "Rain Man", I guess it did raise public awareness of the existence of autism, and indicated that autism need not be synonymous with intellectual disability or the inability to speak. But it has perpetuated a number of myths about autism: especially the myth of the autistic savant (only a small minority of autistic people have super skills) and also the idea that autism is necessarily a severe condition (Raymond lives in a "mental institution", according to Wikipedia's description of the film).

As a film, I wonder if it would be able to convey the inner life of an autistic person very well - in that sense it may perpetuate popular misconceptions because a film needn't show how the autistic person's thought is different to what the non-autistic society thinks it must be. A film can get by with just showing someone's behaviour, and there is a long history of non-autistic people misunderstanding autistic behaviour.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

To expand on my view of The Curious Incident, another thing I didn't like about it is that it perpetuates the myth that autistic people have no empathy - Christopher explains very clearly how he is completely unable to see anyone's perspective, and demonstrates that he doesn't care about his dad's feelings, or feel any emotions for his dad, other than wanting his dad to act a certain way. I think that's such a harmful stereotype - because then people can believe that autistic people can't care about them or love them, and that must be very sad for parents to believe that of their children.

However, I thought the author made a pretty good attempt at showing the logical thought processes, and also the inability to filter out sensory input. But as I said earlier, he clearly has no idea as to the emotional life of autistic people - as soon as Christopher gets emotional, he blanks out, gets violent, and loses awareness along with all memory of what happened. I suppose it might look like that to non-autistic people when an autistic person has a meltdown, but again, this is an external view, rather than knowing what's actually going on in the person's head.

Something I noticed about both The Curious Incident and The Rosie Project is a very strong anti-religion attitude from the protagonists - there seems to be an idea that autistic people can't possibly believe in God because such a belief is illogical. As if logic is the only thought process we can do! This does seem to be a common stereotype about autistic people that - I remember reading a blog post by Daniel Tammet (an autistic savant) which talks about his faith, and several people commented that he can't possibly be a Christian if he's autistic, because it's incompatible with autistic thinking! Along with the stereotype that he can't be a Christian if he's gay - several comments saying that too. Apparently autistic people can't be Christians and gay people can't be Christians!

I saw Rain Man years ago, when I was a teenager, and again more recently. I actually thought Dustin Hoffman did a good job of acting an autistic person, but of course, all autistic people are different, and very few are savants (if I drop a box of matches all over the floor, I don't automatically see how many I dropped - nor can I work out what day someone was born on from their date of birth). I guess, like The Curious Incident, Rain Man had an important role in raising public awareness of autism, but this has both its pros and cons. A much better movie about autism is Snow Cake, where Sigourney Weaver plays an autistic woman, and there's a great scene where her know-it-all neighbour says 'Oh that's okay, I know all about autism - I saw that movie' - indicating that for many people, Rain Man is their only knowledge of autism and they think they know all about it as a result. A Curious Incident did the same for Aspergers - I've had people say I can't possibly have Aspergers because I'm not like Christopher, as I can take the tube independently and don't sit on a bench wailing and rocking!

Unlike MSHB, I deliberately read novels which involve Aspergers or autism, no matter how badly they are portrayed, simply because it's helpful to know what sort of stereotypes I'm up against if I tell people I have Aspergers. That way, I know what myths I may have to correct (because people don't always tell you what they're assuming).

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

That sitting on a bench rocking and wailing is again an outsiders observation of an autistic person in meltdown - I would assume sensory overload and needing to go somewhere quiet.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That sitting on a bench rocking and wailing is again an outsiders observation of an autistic person in meltdown - I would assume sensory overload and needing to go somewhere quiet.

Yes, definitely. And an assumption that because some autistic people do this in public then all would, in every situation. I've certainly felt like sitting on a bench and wailing and rocking when using the London underground, but unlike Christopher (who is using it for the first time and is still a child, as well as being a fictional character) I am also aware that it's best to get where I'm going as quickly as possible, to get out of the situation, and also that I would get odd reactions if I started to wail and rock in public, and these reactions would make me more stressed and overwhelmed. And I've also learnt to build up strategies - walking where possible, learning what times the underground (or whatever transport system I'm using) is less likely to be busy. And anyway, I hated London so much I moved to a completely different part of the UK, where life is quieter and less expensive and less crowded. If Christopher were a real person he would also build up strategies and ways of coping - one snapshot of an autistic person's behaviour is not their entire way of being.

People often don't realise that what happens inside a person (such as sensory overload) can be expressed outwardly in very different ways. In The Rosie Project, Don's way of coping is to act like he's at the dentist - just expect it to be bad and wait for it to be over. I thought it was good that the novel portrayed this, as it shows an alternative to the wailing and rocking thing that people immediately associate with autism. I do the 'at the dentist' thing when I'm in a situation where I can't avoid sensory overload. But what the novel doesn't convey is the exhausting effect this has and how it makes you zoned out and less able to process what's going on around you and interact with people. And that actually it's better, if you can, to find a way to avoid the sensory overload by finding alternatives to achieve what you want to achieve.

It frustrated me that Don did his 'at the dentist' thing whenever Rosie wanted him to do things her way, and that this was portrayed as a good thing - that he was learning to adapt and be open minded. To me, that's kind of like a straight person forcing a gay person to be straight for a couple of days, to have sex with the opposite sex, just to experience what it's like to fit in and be norma, and so become more open minded. A far healthier alternative would have been for Don to explain to Rosie the difficulties it was causing him and for her to listen and learn to understand him a bit, and find a compromise that doesn't involve him sitting back passively as if he's at the dentist, so that they could both be free to be themselves and have their particular needs met.

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Unlike MSHB, I deliberately read novels which involve Aspergers or autism, no matter how badly they are portrayed, simply because it's helpful to know what sort of stereotypes I'm up against if I tell people I have Aspergers. That way, I know what myths I may have to correct (because people don't always tell you what they're assuming).

I find it difficult to persist with books unless they grab my attention in some way. Of the three Aspie novels I deliberately sought out last year, The Rosie Project was the least compelling - the one I least want to read again. I guess that I am an impulsive reader - and will reread something that I like many times over, while being unable to pick up a book that doesn't excite me. I don't think I am noted, at least in my own mind, for strong will power (or for self-organisation).

Example: I read the first two Harry Potter books many times over, mostly in a foreign language that was my special interest at the time. The strange side effect of this is that I now know quite a few words related to wizardy in an obscure foreign language... which will no doubt come in handy if I visit parts of northern Europe and want to inquire about wands or magic potions. Meanwhile there are books that I "ought" to read, e.g. for work, but don't feel a flicker of interest in. I guess for me, Rain Man and The Curious Incident fall into the latter group of books and movies.

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

Although I was the one who suggested the book in the first place, I guess now is the time to confess, that although I enjoyed it the first time, when I tried re-reading it ahead of discussing it I put it down about 10% of the way through. For instance, the first time I read it I enjoyed the lecture to the 'Aspie Group', this time it just seemed like a device so the reader could be aware of where Don was coming from.

I still think it has the potential to be a good film, though.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

It's interesting that it is never stated outright in the book that Don has Aspergers, nor does he ever express any thought that he may have it (at least, I think he doesn't - towards the end of the book, I was getting so fed up of it that I was skimming quite a bit, so I might have missed that bit!). So the idea of Aspergers is introduced by that lecture, and then there are a couple of characters who say things very indirectly to hint that they think Don has it, but those hints of course go over his head, so it's kind of like a joke he's not in on.

I was a bit disappointed by that - not just because it's totally unrealistic, but also because it would have added a whole dimension to the novel to have him understand that his way of processing the world is what society has labelled as 'Asperger Syndrome', and to deal with that and understand himself, and how others see him, better. This sort of self knowledge would also enable the readers to empathise with him and respect him more as an equal, rather than someone to laugh at or pity or see as an entertaining oddity.

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That sitting on a bench rocking and wailing is again an outsiders observation of an autistic person in meltdown - I would assume sensory overload and needing to go somewhere quiet.

It is true, though, that a lot of autistic children do this very frequently - it's something my mum experienced a great deal of as a special needs teacher. It's also an occasional coping mechanism of at least one friend of mine who is in his early thirties, but only when something totally unexpected happens that he finds difficult in a situation when he was already stressed.

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