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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: July book ~ Toby's Room by Pat Barker
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This is going to be brief because I am on my phone.
July's book is Toby's Room by Pat Barker. It is set during WWI and the centenary of the start of the Great War seemed a good moment to read this. I haven't read this one but loved her Regeneration trilogy, particularly the first two books.
The usual, sign up below he you are interested, questions to come around the 20th.
[ 02. July 2014, 07:04: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
While Rat Barker is a perfectly splendid name for a novelist of the Trenches, it appears in the catalogues as Pat Barker, should you be looking it up.
Firenze, sometime librarian.
[ 02. July 2014, 07:08: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sorry Firenze ~ I spotted that typo, and another, the me /of , just missed the he / if ~ comes of using number pad layout on my phone.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
No worries. I just think 'Rat Barker' is a happy coinage - like a Horse Whisperer only more gothic.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
It looks like my kind of thing, and my library has a copy although it is checked out at the moment. I'll request a copy and hope to get it soon. I notice that the blurb says it involves the same characters as "Life Class" -- is it better to read Life Class first, I wonder, or OK to jump straight into Toby's Room?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Reading this at the moment and looking forward to the discussion.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
My reserved copy is on it's way to me.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I am v. interested in The First War as my late grandfather fought in it with the US Navy. Were he alive today, he should be 125 on his next birthday. Sadly, he's been gone for nearly fifty years. I shall try to find the book at our city library or at the university. I'll look for it today or tomorrow and attempt to finish it by the 20th. Is it very long?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I'll have it in a couple of days! May take it on holiday.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I got a kindle copy from the library.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I read it this weekend. It's a quick read, and I liked it much better than The Rosie Project. I think I would also like to read Life Class now, because although Toby's Room is a stand-alone novel, it feels a bit bare in the development of the relationships between Elinor and Paul and Kit - there is a whole period of their lives missing, where they get to know each other, and from what I can gather from the reviews, this is covered in Life Class. I'm also thinking it might be interesting to read Virginia Woolf's Jacob's Room, as apparently Toby's Room alludes to that in several ways.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Yes, I've had similar thoughts.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I just picked up copies of both Life Class and Toby's Room from the library.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I'm reading Life Class now - I'm about a third of the way through. I'm surprised at how readable Pat Barker's books are. I'd not read her before, but I have the Regeneration trilogy and had been planning to read it at some point. I was imagining it would be quite a heavy, dense read, so had been putting it off till I had more time and energy to devote to it. But her writing style in both Toby's Room and Life Class is very simple and direct, and so very quick to read. And the content is interesting and intelligent, dealing with complex issues. I'm reading it mostly on my way to work and during my lunch breaks.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
I read this only about a month ago, so would join in except I'll be away from the 19th... I read Regeneration years ago, but a lot of it is still very clear in my mind - Pat Barker is very good at creating believable characters, even if they look at first like they could easily become caricatures. Toby's Room lived up to that.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Just starting it: interrupted the world cup because my wife had an errand to run...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Have finished both books and am anxious to discuss!
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Fine with me: I shall be finished reading within the half-hour!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
So, a day early some prompt questions - but don't feel tied to these if I haven't asked something you'd be interested in discussing.
- A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
- Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
- The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
- Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
- And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
- Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
- A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
I find her writing style very engaging and easy to read, even when she's covering difficult subject matter, and personally like this spare writing style that leaves me filling in the gaps rather than being forced to see the world through the author's florid phrasing.
- Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
I find her historical detail fascinating and this is why I read her now (I started reading the Regeneration trilogy when they won prizes). I find she opens a window into a different time and place. I read criticisms about her use of anachronistic dialogue in this book (Wow) but according to Merriam Webster the first recorded use is 1513. - The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
I find Pat Barker most engaging when she's writing about historical characters, which is why I preferred the first two books of the Regeneration trilogy, and here again, I found Tonks an amazing character I wanted to learn more about. I wondered while I read the book how much Paul Tarrant was based on Paul Nash, but knew enough to know that it wasn't a direct match. When I researched afterwards I found that Paul Tarrant is a combination of Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer, and similarly for Kit Neville. I also knew I didn't know enough about WW1 artists to identify those that Kit Neville is based on. I now want to find out more about these artists (and came away from Regeneration wanting to know more about Sassoon and Owen).
- Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
The reviews commented on the lack of understanding of Elinor in particular and I really wondered what they were expecting from the book. Elinor did feel sketchy as the story was through her eyes, but how clearly do we characterise ourselves? I wondered if Elinor had been based more closely on Dora Carrington maybe her character would have been more delineated but that wouldn't have told the stories of some of the WW1 artists in quite the same way.
- And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
I find this spare writing leaves me to fill in the gaps mentally - as you have to do taking to people in real life. Most people just drop hints in passing rather than give full splurging detail and I end up working out gradually what must fit together to make sense. I feel the same about Barker's writing and find this understatement almost more powerful as the full horrors gradually dawn on you.
- Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
I want to read Life Class next, and see the exhibition of Tonks' work, and find out more about WW1 artists.
I know I could have asked about the structure of the story and the final denouement, but for me those aren't the joys of Barker, it's the way she gives a glimpse of this different world, just leaving it ajar and inviting you to discover more.
[ 19. July 2014, 09:42: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
As I listen to a soprano singing a lovely art song on Radio 3, I write this late at night. I finished the book two days ago. I thought her writing style to be elegant and spare, very engaging and pleasant to follow except for the grisly bits like deformities of faces and the episode of the retelling of how Elinor's late brother raped an underage stable boy. I did not realize until the end that Tonks and some other characters were real people with their real names or real people with pseudonyms. I think she succeeded in bringing the horrors of war to the printed page.
The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
Again, I am not a scholar of the First War, but I found the characters of the surgeons, enlisted men who were injured and the country squires who were their officers to be very believable, at least as good as another period novel that we read for book club earlier this year.
Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
I do not. I found virtually all of the characters to be strong and believable, within the context of the real-life parts of the story.
I was an art student at university and I skipped the lessons in life drawing on two occasions when there was a male model. I struggled to portray the female models though I was challenged by the work of drawing with charcoal and found that I much preferred to illustrate buildings and cars! I briefly worked as an architectural illustrator in my own office when I was an undergraduate.
And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
I don't think the character of Toby, during his brief appearances was anything but shallow, but that may have been the intent of the author. There was certainly absolutely nothing for me to like or admire about the late Dr. Toby Brooke. I found him to be a repulsive pervert with no redeeming social qualities!
I did think that the narrative told by Kit of how he honourably ended his own life was well done.
Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
I wouldn't say no to reading another book by Pat Barker, particularly LIFE LESSONS if that were readily available here.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
- A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
I liked the style. Very readable: well-written without the writing style drawing too much attention to itself.
- Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
There was nothing that stood out to me as being an anachronism, so it seemed pretty accurate to me. I did wonder if a young woman of Elinor's class in that time period would have as much freedom as she appeared to have -- did anyone else wonder if this was true to the times? I know she's an artist which may make it ok for her behavior to be somewhat unconventional, but her family seems quite conventional, so I wondered if this rang true.
- The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
As I'd never heard of any of these people and am not familiar with the art world of this era, this didn't really impact me one way or the other. Sometimes when I read a historical novel that turns out to be about or based on a real historical character, it triggers my interest to want to know more about that person, but that wasn't the case here.
- Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
- And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
I'll take these two together and say that I didn't think the characterization was weak, but I did feel a bit emotionally distant from the characters. I didn't dislike them, but I didn't connect with any of them strongly enough to feel like I really had to know what happened to them. I often find this though -- while some books completely draw me in so that the characters seem more real than the people around me, others feel like I'm looking at the characters behind a pane of glass. This was one of the latter books. Interesting but not emotionally engaging. Actually the best parts of the story, for me, were not in Toby's Room but in Life Class. That makes it a bit outside the scope of this discussion, but I will say that if I hadn't read Life Class first, I would have been even less interested in the characters in Toby's Room. Paul's overseas experiences in Life Class were the most engaging thing in either of the two books for me.
The hardest character for me to get a handle on was Kit. I really didn't know what to make of him. And Toby himself of course. I didn't think Toby was an awful person but I thought that the things we learned about him made it hard to know how to take him.
- Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
I've been wanting to read more WWI historical fiction because of the anniversary, so I may check out the other Barker books set in this era, but am open to other suggestions!
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
Although the book was easy to read, and I enjoyed it up to a point, I didn't particulary enjoy her style. I thought the scenes where Kit was hallucinating what happened to him in the treches, mixed with what was happening on the ward werre well done.
Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
I found the whole thing rather unconvincing, I had no sense of the time or the place, and like a few other peole didn't realise till the end some of the characters were based on real people. Did people in the 1910s say 'freshen up' for instance?
The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
I was very much reminded of Summer in February , another piece of fiction based on real life artists. At one point I wondered if these characters were based on the people in Summer in February, as there seemed to be similarities. As characters I found them all very hard to get a handle on, with the exception of Kit.
Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
I did, I couldn't understand Elinor, was she a bitch, a determined young feminist, a confused spoilt brat. I thought she was meant to be nastier than she appeared and I couldn't work out her motives. Much the same goes for Toby, who seemed little more than a sketch.
And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
Maybe this has something to do with her style, giving the reader space to add in their own take on the subjects, but then one could say that is what Enid Blyton does, so I'm not sure that washes. There seemed no real connection between any of them.
Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
I think I might read Life Class to see if that fills in the dots. I don't particularly enjoy reading books set in WW1, though I do like late Victorian/Edwardian novels and books set in that period.
I just felt Barker hung a story on the suffering of men with face wounds, without really being able to get into the minds of any of the characters. I found the whole thing curiously flat.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
I found the spare style all right.
Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
She was reasonable successful in evoking the detail but it didn't provide much insight. It was inoffensive and seemed like a lot of other books about the period written at a later time.
The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
I recognized it was a bit about established groups but don't know the artists well enough for it to have much effect. It didn't get too much into the shared awe about famous people.
Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
The lead character seemed to spend a lot of time in a daze. After a while I wanted to edge away. She also had no interest in exploring the homosexual nature of Toby, such as meeting his war time lover. This differs a bit from other gay novels I've read about life in war. Certainly Toby's internal life isn't explored at all. He's just a McGuffin.
Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
I don't think I want to read more of Barker's books. I'd like to know a bit more about the period and about Gay life in the period and the war.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Here are my comments on Toby's Room.
1. The only time I found the writing spare was in direct speech when I sometimes found it hard to know who said what.
Otherwise I had no issue with it.
2 & 3.The historical detail anchored and informed the story but I was unaware that characters were based on real artists.
4 & 5.While reading the book I wasn't aware that the characterisation was weak. But having finished it and gone on to read other books I realise I have little memory of or emotional connection to the plot.
I was shocked by the implied incest. The lack of discussion of the incident didn't surprise me though, summing up the 'least said soonest mended' attitude.
6. I'm not enthused to read more.
The most interesting aspect of the book for me was Elinor's portrait painting of the injured. I had no idea this was done, and her revulsion and attraction to the work intrigued me.
Coincidentally I'm currently reading The Darkest Hour by Barbara Erskine and the main character is a female war artist in WW2 in Southern England.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I read Toby's Room first and really loved it - I felt Elinor was a very strong character. I wouldn't describe the writing technique as 'spare', but then I rather like that use of interiority (I believe the technical term is Free Indirect Discourse) which Hilary Mantel also uses to the point that makes some people want to lob the books across the room.
I thought Elinor's unconventional behaviour was thoroughly accounted for in Life Class, and very carefully related to what was normally expected. In fact one of the things I liked least about that book was the way it almost seemed to be serving as a history textbook - as if Barker had wanted to get the maximum use out of all he research work. This book is on my new A level exam syllabus, but I think I'm going to ignore it, and so stick with Regeneration, which much also have been very thoroughly researched, but somehow seems to wear its learning more lightly. Or maybe it's because Sassoon and Owen matter to me in the way that the artists don't.
Perhaps another reason I liked Life Class less was my own fault for reading the two books the wrong way round. It's rather odd, in particular, reading about Kit Neville when one already knows the terrible fate that awaits him.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Interestingly Mark Twain used "freshen up" as a phrase, so it's not anachronistic either.
I've since read Life Class and wish I hadn't read them in the wrong order too.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Loving this book, hasn't realised it was the second in a sequence, will read life class next.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
A number of the reviews of this book commented on Pat Barker's writing style, both favourably and unfavourably. Did you find her spare writing style something that engaged you or not?
I don't think spareness in itself makes a writing style bad. But I did find Barker's style a bit clumsy sometimes, and she used quite a few run-on sentences, which I found a bit distracting. But it was nothing to do with the spareness - the spareness works well.
Pat Barker uses a lot of historical detail in her books. How successful do you think she is?
It's hard to tell, because of course we are in this time period and so is she, and so our understanding is coloured by this. I did feel aware that it was a book written now about a time in the past - there were times when I thought 'I wonder if someone in that period would really have conceptualised things in that way'. Particularly with Elinor's attitude to her family (feeling that being with her family makes her feel young and awkward, because of the way they treat her) and her thoughts about being a woman in a sexist society. Not that she wouldn't be aware of these things, but the way she frames it and conceptualises it seems more contemporary. Although Barker seems aware of this, and I could see she was trying to strike a balance between the extent to which Elinor's thinking was shaped by her culture and the extent to which she was rebelling against that culture. I found it interesting.
The characters in Toby's Room include Henry Tonks, Harry Gillies and some of the Bloomsbury set with a number of artists based loosely on Dora Carrington, Paul Nash and Stanley Spencer (Paul Tarrant), Christopher Nevison and Mark Gertler (Kit Neville). How successful did you find this?
I don't know how I can know how successful it was, because I didn't know anything about those people to begin with. I actually didn't realise when reading the novel that Tonks and Gillies were real people. I don't normally read novels in which historical people are characters along with fictional characters, because I find it messy, unless it's a magical realism book that isn't supposed to be representing those people as they were. I also don't normally read historical fiction, because of the fact that of course the author will be to a certain extent unable to see fully outside of his or her own culture. So I don't have a lot to compare it with. But I found the book as a whole interesting and engaging, and I looked up Tonks' war art on the internet afterwards.
Some of the reviews comment on the weak characterisation. Do you agree?
When I realised that the characters, especially Kit, were based on real people, I did think 'Ah, that explains why they don't seem to be fully understood by the author'. It's like she is describing them more from the outside - we get a strong idea of what they are like from others' views, especially Kit, but when the author depicts their own perspective, there does seem to be something missing. Paul is the character who I felt that the author had got to grips with the most - I felt she was more comfortable writing his perspective, and he seemed like the person who made the most sense from the inside.
And again, some of the reviews commented on a perceived lack of emotional depth in Barker's characters. Do you agree? Does it matter?
I don't know. Elinor is quite a determinedly selfish character - she expresses the view more than once (over the two books) that she needs to be selfish. She avoids thinking about certain things. But she obviously has emotions, which she struggles with - she has a lot of difficulty dealing with her brother's death, and basically cuts herself off from the world for a while. So it's not that she lacks emotional depth - more that she deals with the world and her emotions in a certain way, and in the context of a society which expects people to have a 'stiff upper lip', and which sees women as weak and dependent, while she wants to prove herself to be strong and independent and to be a serious artist. I thought the author did a good job of giving a snapshot of the complexities and difficulties of Elinor's situation - they weren't explored in depth, because it wasn't that kind of novel, but they were shown, and no easy solutions were given, because of course there weren't any.
Has reading Toby's Room left you wanting to read more? (Either books by Barker, more about the period or other books suggested by this book.)
Yes, I also read Life Class after reading this novel. And I will read the Regeneration trilogy at some point, but I had intended to do that anyway, before reading this book. What I particularly liked about both Toby's Room and Life Class was the art aspect - as I draw portraits, so could relate to a lot of the stuff about drawing, and was quite fascinated by the idea that a person's identity is in their face and that having a facial deformity like Kit's destroys a person's identity. I don't think I agree with that, personally, as I don't recognise faces (even though I draw them!) so I don't see a person's identity in their face at all, but it was an interesting idea and made me think. And the question of whether war was more important than art - the idea that art is unimportant frivolity in the face of war, and the artists fighting against that. And the question of what art was supposed to depict - is it wrong for art to depict negative things like war. I liked how the novels grappled with those sorts of questions, and was more focused on that than thinking about the writing style or the characterisation.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Interestingly Mark Twain used "freshen up" as a phrase, so it's not anachronistic either.
In what context did he use it? I just looked on the OED website, and it seems that 'freshen up' in terms of refreshing one's language skills or one's memory was used in the 1800s, but 'freshen up' in terms of washing one's face, tidying up one's clothes, etc, (which I think is how it's used in Toby's Room) is originally an American term, and the first recorded usage is in the 1960s.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Huckleberry Finn, Chapter 19:
quote:
Then we set out the lines. Next we slid into the river and had a swim, so as to freshen up and cool off;
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Huckleberry Finn, Chapter 19:
quote:
Then we set out the lines. Next we slid into the river and had a swim, so as to freshen up and cool off;
Ah, that's interesting. It's kind of similar, although I guess it isn't quite the more specific idea of freshening up in a social context of making oneself look clean and tidy and presentable, but rather the more literal meaning of refreshing or making fresh again. But there's probably a bit of overlap. The more specific one follows quite naturally from the older meaning.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I still don't think Elinor would have said 'Freshen up' (it was her that said it, wasn't it?), but it's good to know that it is conceivable someone at the time might have.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I thought 'freshening up' was a euphemism (in the book) for visiting the WC. At work, I say "I've gotta make a pitstop." (which is a copyrighted phrase in that context because it's in my first novel.)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Paul had come down to visit Elinor by train and then walked from the station in the rain, so I would have assumed he would have been wet and dirty, steam trains leaving smuts everywhere and country lanes being used to drive cattle and sheep. In this context freshening up could just have given him a chance to clean himself up - which is what I read that to mean.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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