Thread: Is music really all about sex? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Article on the BBC website sporting the same title as this thread suggests this explanation of the origins of music in light of the questionably-related finding that women like more complicated composers during their cycle. Um, okay.
Anyway, why did our ancient forebears (Jubal or somebody else) invent music? Does it confer any evolutionary advantage? Or is it just pleasant?
[attempted a link edit to see if it will make it UK-readable]
[ 24. April 2014, 19:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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What do you mean 'During their cycle'? during mensturation?
So what about women who have no 'cycles'?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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My first reaction is that were the conclusions of the study accurate, it would be Beethoven rather than Barry White used as a trope.
Posted by StarlightUK (# 4592) on
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At the risk of sounding simplistic I think music was "invented" simply because it makes people feel good. It can lift or mirror the emotions and it is simply pleasant to listen to.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
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The link is not accessible from the UK, best I can tell.
I think music probably arose as an accidental cross-over in the brain, probably having to do with the development of language. A bit like flight in birds possibly has an accidental origin in temperature control mechanisms. However, I expect it soon enough came under evolutionary pressure due to sexual selection on the ability to please and excite. Just like the early feathers came under evolutionary pressure due to natural selection on gliding.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
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I think women invented singing.
It would be unwise to sing while hunting Sabre-Toof-Tigers as it would either alert them to your presence or cause them to turn around and hunt you instead.
OTOH maybe songs were invented by men on the way home with aforementioned STT; to advertise their Mighty-Hunter-ness to all and sundry.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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I think it was Gene Simmons who said that anyone who tells you they got into rock music for some other reason than to get laid is lying through their teeth.
There are other theories which suggest that music developed as a way of connecting people. And connecting as a group is an instinctive survival tool- look at my dog, who is obviously hard wired to want to be with the pack, so that she gets very upset if she is not.
My thought is that music has a general power to connect people emotionally, and different kinds of music have specific powers to connect us in specific ways. One of the two articles mentioned Gregorian chant as a counter to the theory that music is about sex. But Gregorian chant has profound effects on the chanters, bringing them close together in a meditative relaxed state. There is still an advantage to that state, even if it is not a reproductive advantage. Other music might have a reproductive origin- drawing a connection to someone is part of sex. So I would say that music can be about sex, but it isn't all about sex- it is about facilitating emotional connections between people.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I think women invented singing.
I would bet that mothers discovered fairly early that singing can be a bonding tool with an infant.
And you might not sing while actively hunting, but if you want to create a team mentality on the way to the hunt, a song will do the trick. I remember walking to a football game with a bunch of people who were rooting for the same team. All it took was one person to start to sing the college fight song, and everyone joined in. Talk about a team building activity. (Anthropologists would probably also say that we were trying to intimidate the enemy by sounding as united and big as possible.)
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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Surely singing is just a version of talking - talking with tonality. It helps to engage with ones emotions if you talk using variation in tone and level etc. It does not seem a long way from basic tonal grunting to music, in a rudimentary form.
Because music engages with emotions, it will naturally be associated with stronger emotions - and sex is one area of strong emotions.
So I think there is a link, but it does not mean that all music is about sex. All good music is about emotion, intensity, passion.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Surely singing is just a version of talking - talking with tonality. It helps to engage with ones emotions if you talk using variation in tone and level etc. It does not seem a long way from basic tonal grunting to music, in a rudimentary form.
Because music engages with emotions, it will naturally be associated with stronger emotions - and sex is one area of strong emotions.
So I think there is a link, but it does not mean that all music is about sex. All good music is about emotion, intensity, passion.
To your first point-- a lot of children's songs in many cultures have elements of word play, rhythmic eccentricity, pronunciation tricks, and so forth. For that matter, so do a lot of adult songs. Play is the basis of all learning. ( look it up-- it is.) So, I have wondered if song in particular evolved from a natural impulse to play with words and speech patterns while learning how to talk.
Think of the three year old that will chant a word over and over when they learn it. " Bowling ball! Bowling ball! Bowling ball!"
( this brings to mind another function of song-- storing community stories in a memorable way. Most folk songs are simply stories retold with rhythmic and rhyming cues that make them easy to remember.)
To your second point-- yes. All creative expression has a function of helping us manage emotions-- whether we are experiencing something too sad for mere words or too joyous for mere words. This is why art is such a huge part of early childhood education practice.
As for sex-- personally, I think saying song evolved from sex impulses is putting the cart before the horse. Song is song, but when we are looking to attract someone, we try to attract them with things that will impress them. That could be athletics, that could be basket- weaving-- or that could be song.
On that note-- while some people have always sung better than others, the relegation of most singing to the uniquely talented is a fairly recent thing-- for most of history, if you were part of a community, you sang, talent or no. Singing is a way of unifying a community.
[ 24. April 2014, 16:57: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by lapsed heathen (# 4403) on
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quote:
Song is song, but when we are looking to attract someone, we try to attract them with things that will impress them. That could be athletics, that could be basket- weaving-- or that could be song.
Kelly I am regretful that no one ever tried to seduce me with basket weaving, I'mm picturing some variation of that scene in Ghost.
Of course music is about sex, it's about lots of things and all at the same time. Hell, sex isn't even just about sex but it is about sex as one of it's functions.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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This thread is reminding me of the scary videos and books from the early 1980s about how evil rock music was. I distinctly recall it being explained that "rock and roll" referred to the movements of entwined bodies and nothing musical at all.
If music be the food of love...
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Problem with studies is that they are studies. First, participants do not necessarily behave and think as they might if they were not aware of being studied. Second, parameters need to be well controlled so that one is not merely confirming one's hypothesis and that the question being studied is truly the question being answered.
ISTM, this test fails at at least two of those.
quote:
Originally posted by lapsed heathen:
Kelly I am regretful that no one ever tried to seduce me with basket weaving, I'mm picturing some variation of that scene in Ghost.
Hmmm, I am thinking elbows and needles flying around your, erm, protuberances, might dampen your ardor.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
No, no it isn't. Yes, it can be used this way. And we humans are all about re-purposing and multiple goals.
Unless I am creating something for a paramour, sex is not on my mind. Creating is, relaxing is. Simply being is.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So what about women who have no 'cycles'?
They get the bus.
The problem with music is, it can certainly arouse responses in a person that feel very like sex. Music can speed up my heart rate and breathing, and probably raise my body temperature and make me sweat. It can focus my attention almost to the exclusion of everything else and, by delaying its climax, make me inwardly beg for it. A friend who used to sing in the chorus with a major orchestra would sometimes describe a good performance as better than sex, and people knew exactly what he meant. (Nobody ever even said "honey, you're doing it wrong".)
It's frustrating that the good old BBC won't let its UK audience see the link in mousethief's OP, but I don't think music can be all about sex. Its origins are, as far as I'm aware, still a matter of speculation, and anyway it has too many other roles - mnemonic, community bond, religious. Anthony Storr, reviewing the then current opinions in his Music and the Mind (1992), says that some anthropologists (and composers, such as Stravinsky), think that music began as a religious phenomenon - an add-on to "mundane" language that allowed language to become a communication with the divine. I don't know if such ideas still have any currency.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
No, the sex drive, art and music are expressions of the creative urge, which can manifest itself in a thousand different ways. In its broadest sense the creative urge is what's behind the blossoming of spring flowers, as much as the pleasure of creating pottery, composing a violin sonata, or a small child blowing vigorously and tunelessly but with huge enjoyment into a tin whistle.
Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on
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Not all music is about sex. Some of it's about drugs.
Sorry.
It is a shame we can't see the article - and I have rootled around to try to read it, but can't. However I'm always sceptical of leaps made from "Women like this at this point in their menstrual cycle" to anything too far removed from basic reproduction-related stuff.
I'm inclined to agree with Kelly about community uses of music - as a way of remembering stories and other important things, and of keeping workers working well together (sea shanties spring to mind). I'd like to think that people developed music because they could.
Thinking back to soothing babies - there is something soothing about the vibrations in the chest produced when you sing to a baby you're holding. Singing now comes naturally when faced with a grumpy baby, like the baby two step rocking back and forth does. There's nothing remotely scientific about that though, it's just experience. And actually, I am soothed by singing to a crabby baby - singing makes the breathing slow down & gives something else to focus on besides just how mad the baby is driving you and how little sleep you've had.
It's also a lot of fun to sing filthy folk songs to babies too young to understand them....
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Thinking back to soothing babies - there is something soothing about the vibrations in the chest produced when you sing to a baby you're holding. Singing now comes naturally when faced with a grumpy baby, like the baby two step rocking back and forth does. There's nothing remotely scientific about that though, it's just experience. And actually, I am soothed by singing to a crabby baby - singing makes the breathing slow down & gives something else to focus on besides just how mad the baby is driving you and how little sleep you've had.
Nearly wrote that myself.
In fact on one particularly stressful occasion I sang over and over The Skye Boat Song to my then 2 year old son. He lay on his bed sobbing "Don't stop, don't stop".
Of course he doesn't want to hear it ever again and even gets quite agitated if he happens upon it.
I questioned him and he could not explain and I certainly didn't fill him in on That Awful Day.(He is 27 now!)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Here's a link to the article that appears to be the basis of the Beeb article.
I agree with the person above who said it's a ridiculous leap from "menstruating women have such-and-such a response to music" to "music was invented for sexual purposes" or however you want to phrase it. But I thought it would be interesting to discuss (and it has been so far) why music might have arisen in the first place. And as IngoB points out, once music existed, selection forces could act on it, and mold it in various directions.
Hell, it could have been invented as a way to keep bears from sneaking up on you while you're taking a crap.
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on
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Rhythmic tapping and drumming on things probably played a role in the development of music too. Just sitting around the cave idly banging a stick on a rock, and getting a rhythm going. Then adding vocalizations to it, maybe even nonsense sounds, until suddenly you have a song.
edited to add: Of course it isn't all about sex. Nothing is all about sex. As someone pointed out above, even sex isn't all about sex. But music is very attractive in a mate.
[ 25. April 2014, 01:19: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lapsed heathen:
quote:
Song is song, but when we are looking to attract someone, we try to attract them with things that will impress them. That could be athletics, that could be basket- weaving-- or that could be song.
Kelly I am regretful that no one ever tried to seduce me with basket weaving, I'mm picturing some variation of that scene in Ghost.
Of course music is about sex, it's about lots of things and all at the same time. Hell, sex isn't even just about sex but it is about sex as one of it's functions.
Well put. (RE: music)
And I know you are kidding, but attracting someone's attention doesn't need to be about full-on seduction, does it? It can just be about attracting their attention. You can achieve that with a shared interest in bottle caps. Or an Ethel Merman singalong, which has to be about the least seductive scenario I can think of. You can start with simple liking before you dive straight for seduction... right?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
No, the sex drive, art and music are expressions of the creative urge, which can manifest itself in a thousand different ways. In its broadest sense the creative urge is what's behind the blossoming of spring flowers, as much as the pleasure of creating pottery, composing a violin sonata, or a small child blowing vigorously and tunelessly but with huge enjoyment into a tin whistle.
See? Ariel just gave me a creative orgasm without any sex involved whatsoever. As in YES!YES!YES! I agree!
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...And I know you are kidding, but attracting someone's attention doesn't need to be about full-on seduction, does it? It can just be about attracting their attention. You can achieve that with a shared interest in bottle caps. Or an Ethel Merman singalong, which has to be about the least seductive scenario I can think of. You can start with simple liking before you dive straight for seduction... right?
Your Ethel Merman reference gave me flashbacks to Gay Piano Bars I Have Known.
The problem with the sexual selection is that you do stuff to increase sexual opportunity and you get distracted by the intrinsic pleasures of the stuff. "Just one more cave painting and I'll come to bed..."
While music can be about sex, it can be about many other things. Birds marking territory, political comments or simply feeling good in the shower.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...And I know you are kidding, but attracting someone's attention doesn't need to be about full-on seduction, does it? It can just be about attracting their attention. You can achieve that with a shared interest in bottle caps. Or an Ethel Merman singalong, which has to be about the least seductive scenario I can think of. You can start with simple liking before you dive straight for seduction... right?
Your Ethel Merman reference gave me flashbacks to Gay Piano Bars I Have Known.
I knew someone would say that.
quote:
The problem with the sexual selection is that you do stuff to increase sexual opportunity and you get distracted by the intrinsic pleasures of the stuff. "Just one more cave painting and I'll come to bed..."
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
... not a problem, in my book. The more pleasure you can get from a variety of things, the less mopey you will be when you ain't getting any.
[ 25. April 2014, 04:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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The original link is still not accessible in the UK, unfortunately. It comes from the BBC Worldwide service and isn't funded by the UK licence fee. So we're barred in the UK.
Thanks to mousethief for the alternative link.
B62, Purg Host
[ 25. April 2014, 05:38: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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I agree the creativity comment. It's probably worth observing, additionally, that music may often have immense emotional power, linking its appreciation with experiences which have stirred us. For sure, there is very often a link with our passions, our joys and our pains.
There is a lovely series on BBC Radio 4, entitled "Soul Music", which has been excellent in exploring the staying power of many famous pieces of music. This week, it featured the beautiful and sad Welsh love song "Myfanwy". You don't need to understand the words to get caught up in this song.
[Lots of fine male voice choir versions on Youtube, but I rather enjoyed this duet plus male voice choir backing version of "Myfanwy" at a Charity event.]
[ 25. April 2014, 06:16: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
In its broadest sense the creative urge is what's behind the blossoming of spring flowers...
Of course, the blossoming of spring flowers is completely and exclusively about sex!
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
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Perhaps we can ask this the other way around?
If music like this is all about sex, then what is sex all about?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If music like this is all about sex, then what is sex all about?
Soaring high. Being taken out of oneself and close to God. Connecting with timeless fulfillment and joy.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Is anyone here a fan of PRAIRIE HOME COMPANION? Once its creator, Garrison Keillor, noted that if birdsong could be translated into English, it would run something like this: "Hey baby! lookin' hot there, mama. You want some? Somma what I got, huh? huh? Oooh, you walk like you want it! Lookit this, I got it right here, you want somethin' sweet?" (in a deep thuggish tone of voice, underlined by a bass guitar)
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on
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As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
It's both, depending on the bird and the song in question.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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It is still not an apt comparison, though.
If human song was limited to the same parameters as bird song, everything would be variations of Marvin Gaye and MC Hammer.
Though, MC does look a bit like this bird.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
It's both, depending on the bird and the song in question.
( bird nut enters)
Or it could be a warning of intruder presence, or a discovery of a food cache, or a location song ( the lyrics of which would be , " I've been flying back and forth for an hour- where the hell are the other finches?"
Having said that, the bulk of what you hear at the beginning if spring is a bunch of sexual braggadocio and " stay the hell away from my nest!"
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Before that, people in Asia and parts of Africa were working off a five note scale-- complete with notation-- for centuries. If not millennia.
And it worked just fine-- really, all you need to do to convert a five note scale into an eight note scale is account for the three spaces in between the five notes.
Posted by pimple (# 10635) on
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This is a great thread. Before we begin to wonder how music began, we need to know what music is. Someone or two people have already mentioned birds. We say they "sing" because the frequency of the noises they make are recognisable - often as quite remarkable bits of Beethoven!
But to another blackbird or another robin it's a clear and unmistakeable message - finely tuned through aeons of evolutionary development to enhance the bird's chances of passing on its genes. So in that respect, it's certainly about sex.
Perhaps all messages passed between animals are music - think of whales and dolphins.
Perhaps even the roars of lions and the clicking of beetles are basic music. Just different frequencies and rhythms which our own brains ignore because evolution just hasn't hard-wired them to pick up the meaning.
Perhaps language developed from music, rather than the other way around. We discovered that words could do a million more things than yells and cries and coos could. Though the yells and cries and coos would have been far more sophisticated in those far off days before language, when they mattered more.
I even have a rather sad inkling that music that makes me laugh or - more often -weep - is doing something only my subconscious brain recognises. I mean, the best way to ruin a song is to try to consciously analyse it. It's like everything else we do (I've been reading "Incognito" which a kind shippy linked to a while ago. Over ninety percent of what our brains are doing has been hard-wired over the millennia and our conscious brains just don't have any access to it.
So when I hear Vaughan-Williams I just lie back and think of England - or a misty memory of it, heard in a long-forgotten meadow under a soaring
skylark
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Pythagoras doesn't seem to have developed musical notation; he developed the system for expressing musical tones and intervals as ratios, but there's no system of setting down a piece of music there. He was very interested in acoustical phenomena, though, and the work with music was part of that.
The earliest example of musical notation that we have is from 2000 BC, in the form of a Sumerian cuneiform tablet. There are a very few pre-Christian Greek examples of notation, but nobody really knows how to interpret them.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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And I am old enough (I am sure others here are too) to remember when rock music was the epitome of evil, full of the jungle animal instinct that was going to send listeners into a state of mindless lust. Good times, good times...
And before that, ragtime was so unrespectable, played by black people and exciting uncouth feelings that decent people did not indulge in. And before that, OMG, the waltz! Clearly a metaphor for the unnameable, the man holding his partner in arms and (avert your eyes, impressionable people) moving rhythmically.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But to another blackbird or another robin it's a clear and unmistakeable message - finely tuned through aeons of evolutionary development to enhance the bird's chances of passing on its genes. So in that respect, it's certainly about sex.
The OP seems to be saying that song is a way to signal fertility, though. So while all song might boil down to survival of the species, sexual activity is only part of what a species need to survive. Hence the variety of messages.
I find your argument for language evolving from music hugely compelling, though. It makes a lot of sense.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Music goes back much further;
Paleolithic Flutes may be 35,000 years old. You have to decide if you include Neanderthals.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
You have to decide if you include Neanderthals.
With a square in the act it can set music back to the caveman days.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
pimple wrote:
This is a great thread. Before we begin to wonder how music began, we need to know what music is. Someone or two people have already mentioned birds. We say they "sing" because the frequency of the noises they make are recognisable - often as quite remarkable bits of Beethoven!
Simon Conway Morris, the paleontologist, talks about that quite a bit, and argues that there is a kind of universal music, from which evolution selects. This is part of his discussion of convergent evolution, so that bird song, whale music, and human music, have converged on the same point.
Morris is a Christian paleontologist, (who famously worked on the Burgess Shale), and I'm not sure if he would go so far as to say that there is a kind of Platonic 'Ideal music', which evolution has access to. That seems rather speculative!
His popular book is 'Life's Solution', but he has more technical ones as well.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Because music engages with emotions, it will naturally be associated with stronger emotions - and sex is one area of strong emotions.
That's answered the question for me SC.
Taking my mind to a possible scenario around a Neanderthal/Early Homo-sap camp fire.......
They've been chewing on raw bones and tossing them on the fire , then someone picks out a half eaten bone from the hot ashes and finds cooked meat tastes a whole lot better -- A discovery is thus born.
Later that same evening, a male picks up a hollow stick and starts tapping it rhythmically, stirring great joy and delight among his audience. As the evening ends the hottest Neander-chick there snuggles down with the novice music-maker -- Another discovery is likewise born. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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For me, music is all about feeling calm (Little David play on your harp, and all that)
Music can often speak to the soul in a very deep way, much more so than just with words, providing peace and relief from troubles. A certain type of music can certainly do this.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Later that same evening, a male picks up a hollow stick and starts tapping it rhythmically, stirring great joy and delight among his audience.
Or, you are carving out a canoe / pounding out grain, and you discover the time passes more quickly and pleasurably when you assign a rhythm to your actions. Again, the play instinct kicks in to guide you to apply that rhythm to your speech-- now you have a work song. You are all excited about teaching your new song to the group, so when you sit around the fire, you grab up that bone or a handy stick and try to replicate the rhythm you got from the machete or the pestle.
[ 26. April 2014, 16:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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I think these theories, while plausible, ignore our tendancies to experiment. Ook the caveman, with his brain identical* to ours, discovered things by accident. But we discover things by intent. Right.
If the beginnings were accidental, I think you are looking in the wrong age bracket. What do infants do as soon as they are able to grasp and move objects? Bang them against other objects. How do adults respond? They grab a similar object and bang along. Well, provided the banged objects are not fragile or struck against sensitive body parts.
But, no, Ook or Ooka simply looked at the baby and said,"no, no, Ookette, even though our brains are physiologically capable, we have the curiousity necessary to experiment and this is not rocket science, 20th century egocentrism has determined we are not capable of reasoned discovery. It would be impolite to contradict their irrational supposition and we are not australopithecines, are we? So put down the stick."
*Near enough, pedants.
[ 26. April 2014, 17:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is a lovely series on BBC Radio 4, entitled "Soul Music", which has been excellent in exploring the staying power of many famous pieces of music. This week, it featured the beautiful and sad Welsh love song "Myfanwy". You don't need to understand the words to get caught up in this song.
[Lots of fine male voice choir versions on Youtube, but I rather enjoyed this duet plus male voice choir backing version of "Myfanwy" at a Charity event.]
A lovely song, and AIUI it is about sex in a slightly convoluted way: the words, at least, an evocation of pure love in response to the suggestion by the authors of the Blue Books that Welsh women basically did it for sweeties.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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To be clear about those arguing that music is sex: Jesu of Man's Desiring is a homoerotic love song?
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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"Man" in Jesu of Man's desiring is probably meant as 'Mankind', (male and female)
I don't believe Jesus had a downer on eros yet Christianity has, for Centuries, been mocked for it's uneasy relationship with sex . Christian worship, music and songs can evoke eros as well as agape . I don't believe we should feel it is wrong to experience the full spectrum of human emotion and possibility during worship , providing it stops short of carnal thought or action.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
"Man" in Jesu of Man's desiring is probably meant as 'Mankind', (male and female)
I know.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Christian worship, music and songs can evoke eros as well as agape .
I complete don't get what you are saying. Storge, philia and agape I get. But eros? no. CHristianish songs about partners, i guess. Christian songs about God? Not so much.
However, regardless of that, the premise that music is sex is ridiculous.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
We say they "sing" because the frequency of the noises they make are recognisable - often as quite remarkable bits of Beethoven!
I'd say you have that backwards, because the birdsong came first and Beethoven is known to have notated birdsong in his notebooks.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Second movement of the 6th Symphony (Pastoral) has this lovely evocation of bird song (cuckoo), which makes orfeo's point.
I think where the church has often gone wrong re eros has been because it was conscious that lust involved objectification (wrong) and selfishness (wrong). Objectification and selfishness in sexual behaviour are no more and no less bad than in other aspects of human behaviour, what my mum calls putting yourself first and putting things before people.
eros is not necessarily objectifying or selfish, and indeed when it is either of those things, it messes up sexual relationships. As any relationship counsellor will tell you. A purified eros, a more agape- like eros, is a very good thing.
I'm not sure what rolyn was alluding to, but it may have been the fact that worship may induce a passion for God and some of that may be reminiscent of eros-feelings. But if objectification and selfishness come in, that's not good. As a friend of mine puts it by rephrasing a contemporary song, God help us if we are really singing, "it's all about me, Jesus. It's not about You, as if I should do things your way". And that is a danger.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
eros is not necessarily objectifying or selfish, and indeed when it is either of those things, it messes up sexual relationships. As any relationship counsellor will tell you. A purified eros, a more agape- like eros, is a very good thing.
I'm not sure what rolyn was alluding to, but it may have been the fact that worship may induce a passion for God and some of that may be reminiscent of eros-feelings.
Thankyou Barnabas62 that was something of what I was trying to get at . Needed to sleep on it before answering lilbuddha .
Unfortunately Christianity did itself no favours by equating eros to lust , and trying to deny the existence of both in the worship of Christ.
I accept we're in a borderline area, clearly it is wrong to be deliberately engage in selfish lustful thoughts or action on the premise that eros evoking worship *caused me to do it*.
Coming back to music I wonder if that was a factor in the emergence of sexualised music,(early Rock and Roll) 60 years ago . Something that has become more and more developed, and still with us in a big way, while traditional Christianity continues to fade into obscurity.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Anyway, why did our ancient forebears (Jubal or somebody else) invent music?
No, music is not really all about sex.
And we didn't invent music. It's a response to the divine.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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No, not all music is about sex but there are certain points in music where the release of thematic tension can be likened to post-coital glow ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Absolutely. Music is all about tension and release of tension. Everything from sonata form to just going up a scale - do re mi fa so la ti do - is about having a starting point, building some tension and then releasing it. Heck, years ago I got taught the basic principles of developing a musical climax with the tune 'Three Blind Mice'.
If we're talking about studies, I believe there's also a study that shows the most popular rhythms in music tend to match natural rhythms, like the pace of a heartbeat. There are some intriguing arguments that our response to music occurs at a fundamental biological level.
[ 27. April 2014, 13:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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rolyn and Baranabas62,
From my understanding of the word Eros, it would appear you are bending the meaning and intent if the word to fit a usage the inventors would not have contemplated.
----------------------
Tension and release. Yes, tension and release can be part of music, but does not need to be. But even it were, there are a number of tension and release situations that involve no sex.
I think we might be slipping into Freud territory here. It is more likely that predilection rather than any inherent quality is influencing this viewpoint.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
And we didn't invent music. It's a response to the divine.
Those aren't mutually exclusive. The Book of Common Prayer is a response to the divine, but that doesn't mean it isn't invented.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
rolyn and Baranabas62,
From my understanding of the word Eros, it would appear you are bending the meaning and intent if the word to fit a usage the inventors would not have contemplated.
Eros in Ancient Greek meant intimate love. It isn't found in the NT but it is used in this way in the Greek Septuagint translation of the OT. [ The NT word translated as lust is "epithumia". ]
Some thoughts of Plato may clarify the connection. Here is a quote from the Wiki article on the concept of eros.
quote:
The ancient philosopher Plato developed an idealistic concept of eros which would prove to be very influential in modern times. In general, Plato did not consider physical attraction to be a necessary part of eros. "Platonic love" in this original sense can be attained by the intellectual purification of eros from carnal into ideal form. This process is examined in Plato's dialogue the Symposium. Plato argues there that eros is initially felt for a person, but with contemplation it can become an appreciation for the beauty within that person, or even an appreciation for beauty itself in an ideal sense. As Plato expresses it, eros can help the soul to "remember" beauty in its pure form. It follows from this, for Plato, that eros can contribute to an understanding of truth.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
It's both, depending on the bird and the song in question.
( bird nut enters)
Or it could be a warning of intruder presence, or a discovery of a food cache, or a location song ( the lyrics of which would be , " I've been flying back and forth for an hour- where the hell are the other finches?" ...
Bird nerds distinguish songs, which are associated with breeding behaviour, and calls, which are all the other messages. It would be tempting to look at the thread title and analogize between human music and language, wouldn't it?
A voice coach once told my class, "Music is song and dance." I think what he meant was that music is what we get when we do what our bodies seem to want to do - sing and dance - when we're feeling passionate about something. "Singing and dancing for joy" isn't a metaphor, it's a description. And of course, we can dance when we're angry and sing when we're sad, and everything in between. Sometimes we use just our bodies, sometimes we use instruments.
Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on
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I can't recall the details of this recollection but maybe someone more astute can. I remember in a Teaching Co course on Music Appreciation that the instructor said that at the time when Rome was threatened by Goths and Huns the Church issued three "colloraries" that prohibited any rhythmic music, any words that did not reflect sanctity and; I forget the third.
According to the instructor these three rules "saved civilization".
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If we're talking about studies, I believe there's also a study that shows the most popular rhythms in music tend to match natural rhythms, like the pace of a heartbeat. There are some intriguing arguments that our response to music occurs at a fundamental biological level.
That's probably why I like 'Hot Chocolate's Greatest Hits' blaring out in my works vehicle some days. I'd rather hoped it wasn't simply down to me being a sad 70's bar-stard .
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I don't think that there is any question about song being used for sex-- and that being a lot of fun-- it's just a question of if it is all is is for. personally, I think we have a tendency to shift expression of passion and sensuality into sexual situations-- which is why people get so squicked out at certain types of praise songs.
The problem with doing that is there are all kinds of opportunities to be passionate and sensual, and if we imply to people that the only function of a given activity is to attract a mate, we plant an idea into people's heads that is going to only wind up making them miserable if they don't have a mate. People have enough problems without diluting one of their opportunities for pure joy.
And it is just a false idea. Sex is wonderful and amazing and beautiful, but it is not the only opportunity for intense sensual pleasure we have. Thank God. And music is an intense sensual pleasure in and of itself, whether or not it attracts anyone.
As for the circadian rhythm thing-- certainly those who work with little ones pass on the wisdom that the rhythm of a musical piece has a definite effect on their physical response. Therefore-- save the punk rock anthems for when you actually do want them bouncing all over the room like crazed meerkats, because that is exactly what their endocrine systems will tell them to do when they hear rhythms that resemble a hugely accelerated heartbeat.
I was told once that reggae is actually the perfect rhythm for keeping a classroom at a certain level of mellow, and my experiences trying this out leads me to encourage y'all parents/ teachers out there to try it yourselves.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be clear about those arguing that music is sex: Jesu of Man's Desiring is a homoerotic love song?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think we might be slipping into Freud territory here. It is more likely that predilection rather than any inherent quality is influencing this viewpoint.
So your first post was made in jest ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Nevermind if it was , made a good tangent . The quote Barnabas posted by Plato puts it better than anyone ever could .
The trouble with going Freud-side is that we soon get into the -- every single human motivation being influenced by the sex-drive-- bit , so there's no point in discussing any of it.
FWIW I don't really think music is all about sex . Such a viewpoint would be rather limiting and somewhat silly.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
FWIW I don't really think music is all about sex . Such a viewpoint would be rather limiting and somewhat silly.
I'm gonna venture to guess that most of us are on the same page, then because my sense that was the only idea that some folk were really resisting.
Humans are hardwired to be social-- not just with a mate, but with everyone. Music is a big part in addressing that biological need. And note I said "biological" rather than " psychological"-- because I believe community is a biological need. More than we realize.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Even worship music can be sexual.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I was plowing around my FB page looking for the "Fifty Shades of Grey" version of that I posted recently, but Zuckerberg screwed me over again.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
I can't recall the details of this recollection but maybe someone more astute can. I remember in a Teaching Co course on Music Appreciation that the instructor said that at the time when Rome was threatened by Goths and Huns the Church issued three "colloraries" that prohibited any rhythmic music, any words that did not reflect sanctity and; I forget the third.
According to the instructor these three rules "saved civilization".
May I offer the subjective observation that the guy sounds bananas?
That's another problem with connecting all sensuality with sex, you start to distrust things that are healthy and useful in their own right.
God gave us hips for shaking. It becomes sexy because it is proof that we are invested in a sensually abundant life.
[ 27. April 2014, 19:27: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
The Fifty Shades of Grey version
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be clear about those arguing that music is sex: Jesu of Man's Desiring is a homoerotic love song?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think we might be slipping into Freud territory here. It is more likely that predilection rather than any inherent quality is influencing this viewpoint.
So your first post was made in jest
Jest is not quite accurate, but it wasn't made seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The trouble with going Freud-side is that we soon get into the -- every single human motivation being influenced by the sex-drive-- bit , so there's no point in discussing any of it.
Exactly my point in mentioning Freud.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Tension and release. Yes, tension and release can be part of music, but does not need to be. But even it were, there are a number of tension and release situations that involve no sex.
It is certainly true that you can have tension and release without sex.
But I'd be interested to know what music you think is lacking tension and release.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Gregorian chant. This is one reason I use ot to meditate and to relax for slumber.
ETA: I suppose their is technically very small changes in pitch that would qualify, but they are nominal.
[ 28. April 2014, 03:42: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But I'd be interested to know what music you think is lacking tension and release.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I don't think there's much release in Longplayer. Well, one not due for another 986 years anyway.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gregorian chant. This is one reason I use ot to meditate and to relax for slumber.
ETA: I suppose their is technically very small changes in pitch that would qualify, but they are nominal.
Gregorian chant might just about qualify... I'm not all that familiar with it, musically. Because it's pretty much at the beginning of what is usually described as 'tonal' music.
I mentioned a scale before. The very essence of a scale is that some notes are more stable than others. The stablest note being the 'tonic' - if you're singing do re mi the tonic is do. It's the gravitational centre towards which the music pulls.
Pretty much all Western music operated on that system for a great many centuries. Popular music still uses. Serious 'classical' composers started breaking it down early in the 20th century.
When I'm talking about tension and release, I'm really talking about movement away from that gravitational centre being 'tension' and movement towards it being 'release'. Because that's what all Western music did for a very, very long time - on a small scale phrase by phrase, and then on a larger scale within a whole piece. The basic shape of many pieces of music is to start in a stable place, gradually move away from it, and then move back to it by the end. Arriving back at stability is part of what makes a piece feel 'finished'.
It is true that the DEGREE of tension and release varies considerably. Some periods of musical history preferred consonance and pleasant sounds, other periods preferred dissonance and drama.
[ 28. April 2014, 08:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
If they have any instrument at all and sing anything other than the metrical Psalms, they are not uber-Calvinist.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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It is said that the music that was popular when you were 17 is the music of your life. (I fall in the Beatles-to-Springsteen spectrum, so you can calculate my age pretty exactly.)
Surely it is not a coincidence that this is the age of peak sexual fervor.
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
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There really is no longer any such thing as the "music of a generation" because pop culture is divided into myriad niches with an increasingly irrelevant (and more difficult to identify) mainstream. That, and many young people define their musical tastes with recordings of music from a bygone era. Finally, there isn't that clear a division between "youth culture" and "adult culture" anymore - and I'm not just saying this because I am in my late 20's and therefore too old to have a relevant opinion about youth culture .
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
Well, you know that the piano was the only instrument played in the first century Acts assemblies?
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
As a massive fan of Tori Amos, I reject absolutely any suggestion that piano-playing can't be about sex.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Preach.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Sex is eros is yearning. Not the other way round.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
Well, you know that the piano was the only instrument played in the first century Acts assemblies?
I have actually been told that Martin Luther spoke against pianos and that's why they don't have them in the speaker's church.
Posted by lapsed heathen (# 4403) on
:
Oh lets face it music, sex, conversation, art or whatever your having yourself are all about expression. It's not that all conversation is about getting laid any more than music is about getting laid. It's about expressing something you feel and some times you feel sad or lonely or angry or hurt or happy or elated or indeed horny.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Well... Yeah. What's to face?
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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My summary?
No, music is not all about sex, but there are times when I wish it was ...
Posted by lapsed heathen (# 4403) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well... Yeah. What's to face?
The fact that it's not all about sex. Disappointingly. Life would be so much simpler if it were.
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