|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Apartheid: Did John Kerry choose the Wrong Word?
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
American Secretary of State John Kerry used the word apartheid in reference to Israel. For politicL reasons, he has had to backpedal. But how was he wrong to use the word in the first place?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
It's more politically correct than the truth, which is "occupation."
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Apartheid is a word that has been used to describe the situation in Palestine frequently. Kerry was certainly not original in his choice of the word.
Another word that has been used frequently is to describe the small areas where Palestinians have been enclosed as ghettoes.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
Israel doesn't seem to understand that peace talks with your friends won't actually yield peace. You have to talk to your enemies.
I think one of the best examples of this is the Quebec separatist movement. In the 70s, they were full-on terrorists, with bombs and kidnappings and the rest. Then the separatist Parti Quebecois became the government. And then they lost not one, but TWO referenda on independence. And they just lost the last election, in which their main platform was another referendum on sovereignty. So what was once a terrorist movement necessitating the War Measures Act in peacetime is now just part of the political landscape. No bombs.
--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But how was he wrong to use the word in the first place?
Only politically. He spoke the truth, as far as any objective assessment of the situation goes.
Don't try telling that to an American conservative, however, you'll soon have charges of antisemitism leveled at you.
I'm sure Mudfrog will be along shortly to straighten us all out. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Don't try telling that to an American conservative, however, you'll soon have charges of antisemitism leveled at you.
I'm not an "American conservative," nor are the vast majority of my Jewish friends, who take severe umbrage at the "apartheid" label for the Jewish State--the only truly democratic state in the region.
For those who have a sincere desire to learn more, here is a document from the Jewish Federations of North America, which represents literally millions of American Jews (most of whom are "liberals" who vote Democrat): "Israel is Not an Apartheid State".
Yes, Kerry chose the wrong word!
[ 30. April 2014, 01:40: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
That is a cute paper, DT. But it doesn't speak to the way Palestinians have been treated. Israeli's swim in their water supply, they have limited travel, the land designated for them stolen by Israeli settlers, etc. I do no support the terrorist actions of some Palestinians. However, Israel has become increasingly hardline and increasingly makes living on the West Bank difficult.
Are there faults on both sides, yes. But it is far from equal.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That is a cute paper, DT.
"Cute"? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I don't see how the label "cute" accurately applies to a document that makes a strong, substantive case against the "apartheid" slander.
I'm well-aware of the various abuses suffered by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza -- I get most of my information about it from Israeli sources!
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
The cute was sarcastic.
The paper starts by dwelling on the South African Apartheid and never addresses the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis. Merely lopsided apologetics.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Don't try telling that to an American conservative, however, you'll soon have charges of antisemitism leveled at you.
I'm not an "American conservative," nor are the vast majority of my Jewish friends, who take severe umbrage at the "apartheid" label for the Jewish State--the only truly democratic state in the region.
For those who have a sincere desire to learn more, here is a document from the Jewish Federations of North America, which represents literally millions of American Jews (most of whom are "liberals" who vote Democrat): "Israel is Not an Apartheid State".
Yes, Kerry chose the wrong word!
Your friends take severe umbrage, do they? What do you suppose they take when they read Ha'aretz editorials like this one?
Apartheid in planning rights: Israel's discriminatory planning policy in the West Bank violates its most basic obligations
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Your friends take severe umbrage, do they? What do you suppose they take when they read Ha'aretz editorials like this one?....
What is this supposed to demonstrate? That, because some of the editors of Haaretz use the term, Jews are actually okay with it after all?
I don't have to "suppose" how my friends would respond to this editorial's use of "apartheid"--I'm quite sure that, while many would agree with the substance of the piece, they would challenge the use of "apartheid" in the title.
Now, while we're at it, feel free to name another Middle Eastern country where a a newspaper like Haaretz can freely publish an editorial like this one.
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Now, while we're at it, feel free to name another Middle Eastern country where a a newspaper like Haaretz can freely publish an editorial like this one.
How is this relevant? Israel can do no wrong because it is more permissive than repressive kingdoms?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Now, while we're at it, feel free to name another Middle Eastern country where a a newspaper like Haaretz can freely publish an editorial like this one.
How is this relevant? Israel can do no wrong because it is more permissive than repressive kingdoms?
This is typical of pro-Zionist argumentation. "Israel is a true democracy. Israel allows freedoms no Moosleem state does. Therefore everything Israel does is good and right and pure and honest and upright and true and virtuous. Amen."
That and, "How dare you criticize Israel. You're an antisemite with secret Nazi sympathies."
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Like a few other words (Nazi, the disappeared, gulag spring to mind); the word apartheid should never be used to describe anything else than South Africa.
To do so cheapens the original meaning and struggle.
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
In fairness to Israel, I don't think life as an Israeli Arab is anything like as bad as life as a black South African in the apartheid era, so calling Israel an apartheid state is rather unfair. In particular, although Israel is a Jewish state, and non-Jews have a reasonable claim to consider themselves second-class, there is nothing like the kind of segregation that was present in apartheid-era South Africa or the American South.
The situation of Arabs in the territories occupied / conquered / whatever after then 1967 war is much more like apartheid. It is, more precisely, the relation between a military occupation and a subjugated people.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In fairness to Israel, I don't think life as an Israeli Arab is anything like as bad as life as a black South African in the apartheid era, so calling Israel an apartheid state is rather unfair.
The question isn't Israeli Arabs. It's the Arabs in the occupied territories, who are not Israelis.
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Like a few other words (Nazi, the disappeared, gulag spring to mind); the word apartheid should never be used to describe anything else than South Africa.
To do so cheapens the original meaning and struggle.
One of the chief warriors in the original struggle doesn't seem to think so.
[ 30. April 2014, 03:57: Message edited by: mousethief ]
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Now, while we're at it, feel free to name another Middle Eastern country where a a newspaper like Haaretz can freely publish an editorial like this one.
How is this relevant? Israel can do no wrong because it is more permissive than repressive kingdoms?
Go ahead, point out where I have claimed that "Israel can do no wrong".
Anyway... Israel is not just "more permissive." It's actually in a "different universe" than the brutal and corrupt regimes all around it (most of which, by the way, are not "kingdoms"), including the "PA" in the West Bank and the Hamas government in Gaza.
The relevance of this point is that the designation "apartheid state" is inapplicable to a genuine, pluralistic democracy, which is exactly what Israel is. That's one of the crucial points made by the document you dismissed as "cute."
Israel's democracy provides ample space for the kind of sharp challenge expressed by the Haaretz editorial. There are many Israelis (as well as Jews living outside of Israel) working very hard for peace and justice, in solidarity with Palestinians. Their efforts are not aided by people who demonize Israel.
Kerry knows he made a mistake in using the term "apartheid." Unfortunately, many of his "supporters" are supporting him the way a noose supports a hanging man.
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
One of the chief warriors in the original struggle doesn't seem to think so.
I have immense respect for Bishop Tutu. But, on this issue, he's wrong. Most great men have been mistaken about at least one important thing -- this is Tutu's "one important thing."
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The question isn't Israeli Arabs. It's the Arabs in the occupied territories, who are not Israelis.
Which, in the following paragraph, I describe as being a bit like apartheid, but a lot more like the relationship between a military occupier and a subjugated people. Which is what it is.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
The relevance of this point is that the designation "apartheid state" is inapplicable to a genuine, pluralistic democracy, which is exactly what Israel is.
And an occupying state in direct violation for decades of the Geneva conventions it signed. That keeps its subjugated detainees in aparteid-like apart-ness and enforces poverty and increasingly onerous travel restrictions on them. Such an enlightened democracy. So genuine.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is typical of pro-Zionist argumentation....
Who? Me? "Pro-Zionist"? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ... Yes, "guilty" as charged. I support Zionism, because I support the natural right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
Mousethief, thanks for making this point: Many (though, clearly, not all) of those who use the "apartheid" label for Israel do so as part of a larger campaign against Zionism -- against the legitimacy and survival of the Jewish State.
That's another reason why many Jews and their gentile friends are so opposed to the label.
Anyhow, for your listening pleasure....
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Anyhow, for your listening pleasure....
I can't respond to this overture in Purgatory.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Diplomats have been expelled and recalled for less. And rightly so. It's not about right or wrong, even appropriate or inappropriate - it's diplomacy.
John Kerry isn't you or me in a cafe and is held to a different standard (and paid handsomely for it).
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Your friends take severe umbrage, do they? What do you suppose they take when they read Ha'aretz editorials like this one?....
What is this supposed to demonstrate? That, because some of the editors of Haaretz use the term, Jews are actually okay with it after all?
No, it demonstrates that you seem silly taking vicarious offense at Kerry's statement when actual Israelis use it themselves. Here's another: quote:
During her Eilat speech, [Justice Minister Tzipi] Livni said she was impressed that youth in the country protested against the government decision to export natural gas.
“I appreciate the fact that they care and are thinking about the future, and obligating us to think about the future,” she said. “But the time has come for the same youth to ask, to what kind of state do they want to leave the gas reserves? To a Jewish democratic Israel? Or to a binational Arab state? Or to an apartheid state?"
quote:
I don't have to "suppose" how my friends would respond to this editorial's use of "apartheid"--I'm quite sure that, while many would agree with the substance of the piece, they would challenge the use of "apartheid" in the title.
You being quite sure without asking is what "supposing" means in this context. You only get to say you don't "suppose" if you have actually questioned them. And I don't see why I (or anyone else) should be expected to care one way or another what your friends think of Kerry's statement that Israel risks becoming an apartheid state.
quote:
Now, while we're at it, feel free to name another Middle Eastern country where a a newspaper like Haaretz can freely publish an editorial like this one.
Oh, who the fuck cares! Is that the standard to which Israel is to be held? "Not as bad as Saudi Arabia!" People criticized apartheid in South Africa too, you know.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Anyhow, for your listening pleasure....
I can't respond to this overture in Purgatory.
Feel free to take it where you deem appropriate....
And, Dave W., it's well past my bedtime now.... Perhaps, tomorrow my time, after I've had a decent night's sleep, you will be more able to carry on something approximating a "reasonable" discussion about this ... rather than calling me "silly" and drop the f-bomb.
[ 30. April 2014, 05:03: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
[QB]
That's another reason why many Jews and their gentile friends are so opposed to the label.
No. They're opposed to it because it's too accurate, and they don't want to acknowledge how close Israel is to the behaviour of (its old ally, let's remember) apartheid South Africa.
Israel is only a democracy in the same way South Africa was - by limiting the franchise to a subset of the citizens of the areas it controls.
I support the right to self-determination. I support it for Palestinians as well as Israelis. I don't support the right to force people off their land and then use "self-determination" as an excuse to keep them out.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
No. They're opposed to it because it's too accurate, and they don't want to acknowledge how close Israel is to the behaviour of (its old ally, let's remember) apartheid South Africa.
It must be nice to have the gift of discerning people's real motivations! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It's been "interesting" experiencing the "fully fury" of the Ship's Israel-bashers. I think I'll now leave room for some other poor dupe of the International Zionist Conspiracy to enjoy the pleasure.
[ 30. April 2014, 05:08: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
It must be nice to have the gift of discerning people's real motivations!
It's been "interesting" experiencing the "fully fury" of the Ship's Israel-bashers. I think I'll now leave room for some other poor dupe of the International Zionist Conspiracy to enjoy the pleasure.
Right. So the not-so-subtle insinuations that anyone who disagrees with what Israel is doing is anti-semitic and wants to drive Israel into the sea is ok but imputing motive to the apologism for Israeli actions is verbotten?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
It's been "interesting" experiencing the "fully fury" of the Ship's Israel-bashers. I think I'll now leave room for some other poor dupe of the International Zionist Conspiracy to enjoy the pleasure.
Clearly, to you, to criticize Israel is indistinguishable from bashing it. Anyway, I called you to Hell. This is all the courtesy notice you're going to get.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Anyhow, for your listening pleasure....
I can't respond to this overture in Purgatory.
Feel free to take it where you deem appropriate....
And, Dave W., it's well past my bedtime now.... Perhaps, tomorrow my time, after I've had a decent night's sleep, you will be more able to carry on something approximating a "reasonable" discussion about this ... rather than calling me "silly" and drop the f-bomb.
OK, so far we've got "apartheid", "silly", and "fuck"; are there any other words you can't abide to read in a thread about Israel?
I'd be interested to know, though - did you and all your outraged friends express your severe umbrage to the Israeli Justice Minister when she mentioned the risk of Israel becoming an apartheid state? Did you explain to her that to suggest such a thing was slanderous, demonizing, and anti-Zionist?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
There are many Israelis (as well as Jews living outside of Israel) working very hard for peace and justice, in solidarity with Palestinians. Their efforts are not aided by people who demonize Israel.
There were people in the UK and US who did not support the war in Iraq, does this mean that Iraq was not invaded by those powers?
How does pointing out the error of the state's policies affect those trying to change said policies? Turning a blind eye to the misdeeds of an ally might be politically expedient, but it does not encourage the ally to change their ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
I support Zionism, because I support the natural right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
Ancestral homeland. Hmmm, what other group can claim that of the area in question? A group whose DNA reveals Jewish ancestors.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Who? Me? "Pro-Zionist"? ... Yes, "guilty" as charged. I support Zionism, because I support the natural right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
AH, yes! Because the Brooklyn or St. Petersburg Jew whose ancestors haven't lived in the land for centuries have more right to live there than Arabs who were born there.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
Kerry didn't actually say Israel currently is an apartheid state, only that it is at risk of becoming one. If a two-state solution doesn't come soon (and Netanyahu is doing all he can to prevent it), Israel will be faced with a choice between being a Jewish state or a democracy--it can't continue to be both.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Who? Me? "Pro-Zionist"? ... Yes, "guilty" as charged. I support Zionism, because I support the natural right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
AH, yes! Because the Brooklyn or St. Petersburg Jew whose ancestors haven't lived in the land for centuries have more right to live there than Arabs who were born there.
Ancestral homelands are somewhat overrated, IMHO.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Who? Me? "Pro-Zionist"? ... Yes, "guilty" as charged. I support Zionism, because I support the natural right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
AH, yes! Because the Brooklyn or St. Petersburg Jew whose ancestors haven't lived in the land for centuries have more right to live there than Arabs who were born there.
Ancestral homelands are somewhat overrated, IMHO.
I could perhaps be more sympathetic to the Zionist cause if we were talking only of a generation or two, but for the most part we're talking centuries. I can imagine how Palestinians feel: they were born there but Israeli soldiers speaking Russian or English making sure they aren't allowed to leave their ghetto.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Kerry didn't actually say Israel currently is an apartheid state, only that it is at risk of becoming one. If a two-state solution doesn't come soon (and Netanyahu is doing all he can to prevent it), Israel will be faced with a choice between being a Jewish state or a democracy--it can't continue to be both.
IMO, there are two potentially viable solutions in the region.
One is a return to the borders of Israel, with the establishment of a contiguous Palestinian state that includes all the occupied territories, although including Gaza in a contiguous state will be difficult (it would need a strip of land running along the northern edge of Sinai and up the border with Jordan).
The second potential solution is the creation of a single state including Israel and the occupied territories, with all citizens equal and enfranchised. It would require Israel to no longer be a Jewish state - though a secular state with a particular recognition for the Jewish faith (possibly modelled on England with the 'established' CofE, or Scotland and Wales where the CofS and CinW are not established but still seen as some form of national church) may work.
A "solution" which involves creating a Palestinian state which is not contiguous (as far as possible), or contiguous only through very narrow road corridors, would look very much like establishing Bantustans. But, maybe we can't use that word either.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Israel is not a true democracy in that true democracies do not deny full property and other human rights to significant sections of their populations.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Israel is not a true democracy in that true democracies do not deny full property and other human rights to significant sections of their populations.
Israel is cunning in not considering the Left Bank and Gaza residents to be "their" population for all purposes. Maybe apartheid is the wrong term, but only because Afrikaans isn't used much in the Middle East.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I could perhaps be more sympathetic to the Zionist cause if we were talking only of a generation or two, but for the most part we're talking centuries. I can imagine how Palestinians feel: they were born there but Israeli soldiers speaking Russian or English making sure they aren't allowed to leave their ghetto.
My feelings are similar. As I understand it, there are on the other hand still Palestinians who were alive and owned homes in places like eastern Jerusalem that they were forced from. They can still point to a property and say 'that was MY house' without any resort to ancestry.
It is one thing to say that you feel a connection to your ancestral homeland. It is quite another to say that this somehow entitles you to ignore the ordinary property rights of others to their SPECIFIC land. I think that's the thing that bugs me most about the 'homeland' kind of rhetoric - it's a prior claim, but it's also usually a very vague one, and I don't think it can legitimately be used to turf someone out from a specific piece of property that they hold title deeds for.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
the only truly democratic state in the region. [/QB]
So Palestinians are allowed to vote in the Knesset, are they?
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
Apartheid is as apartheid acts. It took me many years of painful reflection to admit that Israel and apartheid South Africa had many similarities. This was an especially painful revelation because much of my academic work had been in modern Jewish history.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
the only truly democratic state in the region.
So Palestinians are allowed to vote in the Knesset, are they? [/QB]
No. Because they're not citizens of Israel. They're residents of territories occupied by the State of Israel -- for reasons Israel's critics like to ignore.
But all citizens of the State of Israel itself -- regardless of religion or ethnicity -- have full voting rights. They can even vote for politicians who express a desire to dismantle the State, and those politicians get seated in the Knesset. You might want to read for example, about HADASH, Israel's Communist "front" party.
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
OK, if Israel is a "truly democratic state" by what right does it continue to occupy the sovereign territory of another state? I can see how a nation may need to invade another for issues of security, as a matter of last resort. But, why still be there 40 years later? Why let civilians settle there? What is gained? How does it demonstrate the benefits of a democracy by removing the democratic rights of another nation? It makes as much sense as trying to impose democracy on another nation whether the people want it or not.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
the only truly democratic state in the region.
So Palestinians are allowed to vote in the Knesset, are they?
No. Because they're not citizens of Israel. They're residents of territories occupied by the State of Israel -- for reasons Israel's critics like to ignore.[/QB]
I won't ignore it. I'll come right out and say it: because if they annexed the territories, Israel would either cease to be a democracy, or cease to be a Jewish state.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
the only truly democratic state in the region.
So Palestinians are allowed to vote in the Knesset, are they?
No. Because they're not citizens of Israel. They're residents of territories occupied by the State of Israel -- for reasons Israel's critics like to ignore.
Which would make the vast majority of the settlements in those areas illegal (which in point of law they are).
Given that Israel has at various times either collected or withheld taxes collected in these areas, I've always thought an interesting counter factual would be a world in which the Palestinians pushed the 'no taxation without representation' line.
[ 30. April 2014, 13:46: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Kerry didn't actually say Israel currently is an apartheid state, only that it is at risk of becoming one. If a two-state solution doesn't come soon (and Netanyahu is doing all he can to prevent it), Israel will be faced with a choice between being a Jewish state or a democracy--it can't continue to be both.
Quite. Sooner or later the options will be bi-nationalism or apartheid unless a two state deal is thrashed out in the not too distant future. It's actually a discussion that has been pretty ongoing among Israelis for some time, as opposed to the US and the UK where the only options seem to be either BDS or uncritical support for the Likud Party.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
]Who? Me? "Pro-Zionist"? ... Yes, "guilty" as charged. I support Zionism, because I support the natural right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
Does that right supplant Arabs who have been living in the region for centuries.
What is a "natural right"? Plenty of Americans have European heritage in their ancestry. Does that mean that Americans have a right to European property by virtue of their ethnicity?
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
the only truly democratic state in the region.
So Palestinians are allowed to vote in the Knesset, are they?
No. Because they're not citizens of Israel. They're residents of territories occupied by the State of Israel -- for reasons Israel's critics like to ignore.
So you argue semantics, not substance? Nice.
[ 30. April 2014, 14:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Sorry. Semantics is not the proper word for this quote. It is for your other argument. Technicalities.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Candide
Apprentice
# 15755
|
Posted
Did John Kerry choose the wrong word? Probably, since instead of discussing how to achieve peace, he's instead discussing proper labels.
There's been plenty of criticism of Israel in the past few decades, and it is unlikely to stop in the immediate future. John Kerry adding a few emotionally charged categorizations on top of that isn't likely to change much. However, it can quite possibly make it a little harder for him to broker a peace deal.
Posts: 36 | From: Norway | Registered: Jul 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
