quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The Mule in Britain's Foundation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saul the Apostle
...the apparent liberal media mud fest...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat
Farage is a xenophobe, a racist...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick
I've never really understood the call for people to use their vote, even if it has to be a negative thing. I get the difference between voter apathy and antipathy, but what is gained by using one's vote for the sake of it? It seems unlikely we'd ever lose our privilege to elect a government simply by low turnout. Anyone care to educate me on this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Farage is a xenophobe, a racist, and someone whose party policies are vile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I think that might need some qualification.

I find it hard to believe that he hates his wife for being German, and despises the black and Asian members of UKIP (some of whom are actually candidates).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I find it hard to believe that he hates his wife for being German, and despises the black and Asian members of UKIP (some of whom are actually candidates).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Farage is a xenophobe, a racist, and someone whose party policies are vile.

---

The sheer desperation is highly amusing. Liberals having to face up to the fact that their outlook is not the only one around and perhaps it won't prevail.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by que sais-je:
It is racist to assume that ......Christians are more moral than non-Christians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by que sais-je:
To take a benign example, two Jewish friends of mine moved to a tiny village in the depths of rural Warwickshire. Every one was very friendly. B was invited to join the Cricket Club. It was assumed that as a Jew he wouldn't want to play but might like to be club treasurer as he would be 'good with money', i.e. he was assumed to exemplify stereotypes associated with his 'race'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor
But it's okay if you want a massive increase in the armed forces and a doubling of our nuclear weapons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Leaving the over-the-top ad hominems aside which UKIP policies are so vile?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
There's a certain amount of distortion going on of things that Farage has said. My understanding is that he's been banging on about the threat of Romanian criminal gangs and in that context was asked whether he would prefer to live next to a German family or Romanian men?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Also absurd is Doc Tor's binary universe in which if you don't agree with him you must be a fracking blackshirt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
There's a certain amount of distortion going on of things that Farage has said. My understanding is that he's been banging on about the threat of Romanian criminal gangs and in that context was asked whether he would prefer to live next to a German family or Romanian men?

---

If that is the way the question was framed, he was very, very silly to answer it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
There's a certain amount of distortion going on of things that Farage has said. My understanding is that he's been banging on about the threat of Romanian criminal gangs and in that context was asked whether he would prefer to live next to a German family or Romanian men?

---

If that is the way the question was framed, he was very, very silly to answer it.

---

'Silly' - pretty much the worst thing you can say about him. like Boris, he has a habit of saying silly things. it's the anti-politics thing that people seem to like. But trying to paint him as a bad, evil, or racist man is a step too far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Nope. There's plenty of perfectly decent people to the right of me. Who knows, you may even be one of them.

But - if you look approvingly at UKIP policies, then yes, I have a problem with that. Why, precisely, do we need another four nuclear-armed submarines at a cost of tens of billions? Why, precisely, do we need to give those earning over £50k a 10p in the pound tax cut? Why, precisely, are we against the European arrest warrant which we use with remarkable regularity to get our old lags back from Spain and into court? Why, precisely, are renewable energy alternatives bad, and coal-fired power stations good? Why, precisely, are they against maternity leave and the job security that comes with it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:


But - if you look approvingly at UKIP policies, then yes, I have a problem with that. Why, precisely, do we need another four nuclear-armed submarines at a cost of tens of billions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And every racist proverbally has several best friends who are black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Their manifesto counts for diddly-squat because they are a party of protest not power.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Their manifesto counts for diddly-squat because they are a party of protest not power.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Actually, it counts for an awful lot. While they might not be (yet) in a position to put any of it into practice, I can reasonably assume that people who vote UKIP do so because at least some of their policies are attractive to them. I know then who to avoid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Actually, it counts for an awful lot. While they might not be (yet) in a position to put any of it into practice, I can reasonably assume that people who vote UKIP do so because at least some of their policies are attractive to them. I know then who to avoid.

---

As usual, Alan puts it a lot better than I do. Quite simply it is what UKIP is against which counts. So you can expect the high point of their polling at council elections and European elections and the low point at General Elections.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
Actually Alan's point is rather irrelevant to the current discussion for the reasons that Doc Tor identifies. It still gives you an indication as to the sorts of people their party is comprised of and what their thought processes are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
My understanding is that [Farage] been banging on about the threat of Romanian criminal gangs and in that context was asked whether he would prefer to live next to a German family or Romanian men?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
My argument is that the UKIP showing in the polls tomorrow will have nothing whatsoever to do with what's in their manifesto

---

That again is irrelevant. UKIPs manifesto is entirely written by UKIP themselves, and it therefore tells you something about UKIP

In this case, the fact a large amount of it is simply incoherent and/or reactionary is a good indication of how their party is likely to be run.

[ 21. May 2014, 13:47: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
 

---

Posted by Spawn (# 4867) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
That again is irrelevant. UKIPs manifesto is entirely written by UKIP themselves, and it therefore tells you something about UKIP

In this case, the fact a large amount of it is simply incoherent and/or reactionary is a good indication of how their party is likely to be run.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
It might tell you something about the people who wrote the manifesto in 2010 (though probably not as much as you think) but not necessarily a lot about their activists in 2014, and certainly not much about people prepared to vote for them tomorrow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The liberal media's approach is self-defeating. If there is anything likely to increase UKIP's vote it's this dirty tricks campaign. I am amazed at how thick and stupid the mainstream media actually is at times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
It might tell you something about the people who wrote the manifesto in 2010 (though probably not as much as you think) but not necessarily a lot about their activists in 2014, and certainly not much about people prepared to vote for them tomorrow.

---

Their manifesto was updated this year, and it's UKIP that are under discussion, not the people who might vote for them tomorrow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

 

---

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The liberal media's approach is self-defeating. If there is anything likely to increase UKIP's vote it's this dirty tricks campaign. I am amazed at how thick and stupid the mainstream media actually is at times.

---

Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And every racist proverbally has several best friends who are black.

---

Yes, so they all say.

I think there's a business opportunity there. An organisation for putting right-wing political candidates in contact with members of minority groups (black, Muslim, disabled, all the varieties of queer...) who are prepared to rent out their friendship on a per hour basis. Sort of like an escort agency, but more immoral.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.

---

If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Well haven't you just gone and stereotyped people who live in tiny villages. Do you really think that all of us rural types are completely unsophisticated, dense and xenophobic?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Signaller:
He's trying to be a politician, but he isn't very good at it.

Regardless of ideology, he's a prat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So I will respond.

Racist - he did say he didn't want a Hungarian living next door. That counts as racist to me, and he does seem identify people by their nationalities quite a lot.

Xenophobic - He so often talks about people like "Hungarians and Romanians", dismissing the "others". In fact, he seems to love stoking the fear of "them".

Vile policies - the party does want to roll back employment law by decades. In fact, back to a time when the wealthy did very nicely, at the expense of most others.

It is a very cheap tacky shot to say "You liberals don't like others disagreeing with you". I know other people disagree with me. Everyone disagrees with me. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with people who preach hatred, be it the Phelps or the Farage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Terribly sorry I didn't realise that the terms of the discussion were yours to set. My mistake.

---

Set by the OP.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.

---

If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?

---

More of them are going to Germany. And substantial numbers are going to Italy and France. There are proportionally more internal EU migrants in Spain, Sweden, Austria and Belgium than there are in the UK (figures for 2010, so they'll have changed).

In 2012, EU migration was 148,000 to the UK. UK citizens leaving the country was 131,000. I'll let you do the maths, and you can decide if that works out as "so many".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd
The problems with words that cover a range of meanings is that they're terribly prone to the fallacy of ambiguity. For example, the word 'liberal' used of the Daily Mail could mistakenly give the impression that it is meant in some sense in which it would primarily apply to the Guardian.

Supporters of Nigel Farage would like to give the impression that the political establishment has been dominated by Guardianistas for decades, and that no mainstream politicians or newspapers have ever spouted UKIP-style rhetoric.

---

quote:

---

never understimate the appeal outside the larger British cities of a talented populist peddling

"backwards to a brighter yesterday"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?

---

Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).

---

The problems with words that cover a range of meanings is that they're terribly prone to the fallacy of ambiguity. For example, the word 'liberal' used of the Daily Mail could mistakenly give the impression that it is meant in some sense in which it would primarily apply to the Guardian.
Supporters of Nigel Farage would like to give the impression that the political establishment has been dominated by Guardianistas for decades, and that no mainstream politicians or newspapers have ever spouted UKIP-style rhetoric.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.

---

If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?

A Polish HGV driver moving to Britain to drive HGVs must be doing so because either (a) there aren't any HGV-driving jobs in Poland or (b) HGV driving jobs in the UK pay considerably more. So what good will your "just go and work somewhere else" do for the British HGV driver who just lost his job to the Pole?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.

---

If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Problem is though that he's a hell of a lot more sophisticated than that (certainly more so than Phelps). I don't think it's right to say that he preaches hatred, because actually he doesn't - certainly not to the degree Phelps did (and sadly, I do think the question of degree matters - the whole schtick here is that to a worryingly large number of people Farage does come across as reasonable, Phelps by the end couldn't even manage that within his own family). I would agree that he certainly stokes fear, however...

In the spirit of know your enemy (and because it was £2 in The Works), I've read his autobiography. He's an entertaining writer, and, if you let yourself, he's also plausible. I came away really pretty worried, because what he was saying was of course execrable, but at the same time the man's very talented and I could see w

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
the British HGV driver who just lost his job to the Pole?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of that has anything to do with what I was saying, which was to point out the craziness inherent in a comment that boils down to "if you're worried about foreigners using EU law to come here and steal your jobs, then why not use the same law to go to their countries and steal theirs?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of that has anything to do with what I was saying, which was to point out the craziness inherent in a comment that boils down to "if you're worried about foreigners using EU law to come here and steal your jobs, then why not use the same law to go to their countries and steal theirs?"

---

Well, I think you're wrong. If the UK, due to its relatively advanced post-manufacturing economy trains more computer programmers than we have jobs for, they're going to go abroad to work. Conversely, we seem to be sadly lacking in people willing to pick fruit and veg, plumbers and dentists (and doctors, if my son's recent tonsillectomy was anything to go by).

So the numbers add up. We're not "stealing each other's jobs", we're enjoying the free movement of labour. Long may it continue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
Lorry driver bollocks. It is well shown that immigration makes an overall positive contribution to the economy. Farage himself admits this, and instead argues that the problem with immigration is a social one, rather than one of employment or economy. The immigrants aren't English. They're different. Different is bad.

Whats so repulsive about the whole thing is just how popular the vile sentiment actually is. I truly despair of the ugly ignorance of mankind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Terribly sorry I didn't realise that the terms of the discussion were yours to set. My mistake.

---

Set by the OP.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If the UK, due to its relatively advanced post-manufacturing economy trains more computer programmers than we have jobs for, they're going to go abroad to work. Conversely, we seem to be sadly lacking in people willing to pick fruit and veg, plumbers and dentists (and doctors, if my son's recent tonsillectomy was anything to go by).

So the numbers add up. We're not "stealing each other's jobs", we're enjoying the free movement of labour. Long may it continue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well maybe, rather than training all those computer programmers we have no use for, we should train some of them as veg pickers, plumbers and dentists. That way we wouldn't have to bugger off to other places and have the people from other places buggering off from there to here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Why not?

I think it's great. My son is nursing in Heidelberg and loving it. Why on Earth shouldn't he?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well maybe, rather than training all those computer programmers we have no use for

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country.

---

I've genuinely forgotten: can someone remind me which major car manufacturer recently relocated a plant from Britain to Turkey?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country.

---

I've genuinely forgotten: can someone remind me which major car manufacturer recently relocated a plant from Britain to Turkey?

---

Ford apparently, but I think there is a longer story here. Ford have been reducing their involvement in the UK for a long time.

Yes this will happen. But some will come to the UK because of our position in the EU. And because we sometimes make it beneficial to be here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I love experiencing other cultures. It's called "going on holiday". I just like having a culture of my own to go back home to afterwards as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.

Of course, that's what a lot of the pro-EU folk want in the first place...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Does the presence of people with different cultures in your neighbourhood change you and the people you socialise with?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
I've never really understood the call for people to use their vote, even if it has to be a negative thing. I get the difference between voter apathy and antipathy, but what is gained by using one's vote for the sake of it? It seems unlikely we'd ever lose our privilege to elect a government simply by low turnout. Anyone care to educate me on this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Why not?

I think it's great. My son is nursing in Heidelberg and loving it. Why on Earth shouldn't he?

---

It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.

Of course, that's what a lot of the pro-EU folk want in the first place...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
UKIP are, as has been noted, simply taking the last 10 years of Daily Heil headlines and turning them in policy.

Now the Right-wing vote has fractured, and the Right-wing press is having conniptions over it. You reap what you sow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
I've never really understood the call for people to use their vote, even if it has to be a negative thing. I get the difference between voter apathy and antipathy, but what is gained by using one's vote for the sake of it? It seems unlikely we'd ever lose our privilege to elect a government simply by low turnout. Anyone care to educate me on this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, that's interesting! I've heard of English people leaving England due to their own xenophobia regarding their changing surroundings, but not due to the xenophobia of their countrymen (or their countrymen's newspapers)!

I suppose the long and short of it is that there's always a good reason to escape from these shores, irrespective of what Nigel Farage and co. might do or say!

---

quote:

---

And don't believe the guff that all the UKIP vote in Euro elections will come back to the "normal" parties in 12 months' time. Some will. But if UKIP get enough votes to seem a credible force in UK politics, then it will be easier for them to retain some of those votes in subsequent elections.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

---

And don't believe the guff that all the UKIP vote in Euro elections will come back to the "normal" parties in 12 months' time. Some will. But if UKIP get enough votes to seem a credible force in UK politics, then it will be easier for them to retain some of those votes in subsequent elections.

---

I'm interested to see what impact a sizeable UKIP vote will have on the Scottish referendum. Two days ago, Danny Alexander, campaigning for a "no" vote in September said that "The break-up of the United Kingdom would represent a defeat for progressive ideals and a retreat from a shared vision of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-national state on these islands."

However, the rise of UKIP gives the lie to the idea that there is a "shared vision" of a "multi-ethnic" Britain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Does the presence of people with different cultures in your neighbourhood change you and the people you socialise with?

---

Yes, of course. Everybody is changed by the people they interact with.

A village culture is changed when a load of commuters move there. The culture of a Gaelic-speaking island is changed when a load of southerners move in. The culture of a single-sex school or college changes if it becomes mixed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
But let's not be surprised at all of this. It has been on the cards for some time, due to the poisonous nature of much of the UK press. This is one reason why I was so glad to see the back of the UK and why I would be extremely reluctant to return any time soon. Let me tell you, people - there is a world out there which isn't as twisted and bitter as the world inhabited by most UK journalists. And life is actually fun again.

Another factor which no-one has raised yet is that UKIP have tapped into the underlying xenophobia of Little England that has never really gone away. Back in the 1930's, we weren't that different from Nazi Germany - which is why Hitler could never understand why he couldn't get us into an alliance. The reality is that much of "Little England" still exists. It didn't go away, it just went underground. Nigel Farage is simply expressing what the Little England underground have always thought. UKIP are going to do well tomorrow and will probably bounce from that into a place of serious contention in some constituencies for 2015. You're going to have to live with that, England. Suck it up.

---

quote:

---

Now, clearly the political history is different, but the fact that in the 1950s Scotland was actually majority Tory suggests that really the countries of the UK are not so different under the skin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
The mask slips every now and then and we see the depths of contempt and loathing for fellow citizens

---

quote:

---

The sheer desperation is highly amusing. Liberals having to face up to the fact that their outlook is not the only one around and perhaps it won't prevail.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
The mask slips every now and then and we see the depths of contempt and loathing for fellow citizens

---

quote:

---

The sheer desperation is highly amusing. Liberals having to face up to the fact that their outlook is not the only one around and perhaps it won't prevail.

---

was your first post on this thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn
And then we have the ahistorical comparisons between 1930s England and Nazi Germany to tar so-called 'little Englanders' with the spectre of the holocaust. I don't see any real difference between the stereotyping of the English with which you indulge yourself and the characterisations of Romanians which you complain about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It has been on the cards for some time, due to the poisonous nature of much of the UK press. This is one reason why I was so glad to see the back of the UK and why I would be extremely reluctant to return any time soon. Let me tell you, people - there is a world out there which isn't as twisted and bitter as the world inhabited by most UK journalists. And life is actually fun again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
If people are moving abroad because they want to, then how is that a problem?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
It is well shown that immigration makes an overall positive contribution to the economy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Out of interest, would you be willing to share with us where in the world you now are, where life is fun again?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Now, clearly the political history is different, but the fact that in the 1950s Scotland was actually majority Tory suggests that really the countries of the UK are not so different under the skin.

---

I was trying to discuss the different rhetoric re immigration north and south of the border vis a vis Farange, rather than discussing Scottish independence.

...

The impression I'm getting here (and, bear in mind, the mainstream media publishes slightly different accounts of the news north and south of the border) is that speeches like Danny Alexander's aren't regarded as vote-winning in the way that Farange's speeches are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
The mask slips every now and then and we see the depths of contempt and loathing for fellow citizens

---

quote:

---

The sheer desperation is highly amusing. Liberals having to face up to the fact that their outlook is not the only one around and perhaps it won't prevail.

---

was your first post on this thread.

---

The point you are making.....?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
The mask slips every now and then and we see the depths of contempt and loathing for fellow citizens

---

quote:

---

The sheer desperation is highly amusing. Liberals having to face up to the fact that their outlook is not the only one around and perhaps it won't prevail.

---

was your first post on this thread.

---

The point you are making.....?

---

That your contempt and loathing for your fellow citizens is quite clear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
If one is a Pole, one has probably learnt English as a second language from a very young age. If one is from the West Midlands, one probably hasn't learnt Polish from a very young age. That might well affect the whole 'should I move abroad given all the upheavals' debate in the two countries.

---

Point of order - the West Midlands, Kidderminster in particular - had a massive Polish community long before the EU, because it was where a large part of the Free Polish army was based in the latter years of WW2. I know it's slightly unfair to pick you up, but it's more just that you hit the bullseye of one of the few places in the UK where there's been 70 years of Polish-English intermarriage, high incidence of Kidderminster accent/Polish surname, and one of the few places where bilingualism was relatively common and hearing Polish in the streets has been common for half a century.

In the 1980s, at my primary school we'd got multiple Oborskis, Sikorskys, Michlewskis, etc - to say nothing of all the Italian surnames because their grandads had been POWs in Bewdley and decided not to go home in 1945...

It's also why so many Poles came to the Wyre Forest when Poland joined the EU - they'd got relatives!

I had no Polish relatives, but enough of my friends did that I picked up Polish words, cuisine, and parties/nights out down the White Eagle Club. Obviously if you'd said Belgian you'd have been more accurate - it was just the Poland/W Mids thing was too obvious not to jump in on - sorry!
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
I thought it said more about my admirable consistency. But hey, you're the one who threw in the blackshirt comment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.

---

And yet when the question is how to assure affordable housing for people on low incomes in London, your answer is that they should just move away from their 'communities' to places where they can afford housing and spend all their time commuting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
I thought it said more about my admirable consistency. But hey, you're the one who threw in the blackshirt comment.

---

Consistently what, though?

Also, I think you'll find the blackshirt comment was the Daily Mail's, circa 1934.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Point of order - the West Midlands, Kidderminster in particular - had a massive Polish community long before the EU

---

Yeah, but that's Kidderminster. A town noted primarily for dodgy carpets and having a certain analogous resemblance to the contents of a Glastonbury portaloo on Monday morning.


 

---

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I am one of those British citizens living and working in another EU country. I have exactly zero intention of moving back to the UK because I personally appreciate the quality of life more here.

I think one of the things that skews the migration for work question is the willingness to learn a foreign language. I can earn more here (as a legal assistant) than I would doing a comparable job in London, but the reason is that I speak fluent French. To put it bluntly, very few British people achieve this kind of competency in a foreign language (‘cause everyone speaks English, innit?). Nonetheless a person like me (completely English-French bilingual with several years secretarial experience) can guarantee that they will basically never be out of work in a city like Paris. Last time I put myself on the market, my phone was ringing off the hook.

I think the day is going to come when the general crapness of British language-learning is going to bite the UK in the butt, actually. When we all welcome our new Chinese overlords, I don’t reckon our utter flummoxation in the face of the Mandarin language is going to help us any (joking – but not entirely ).

(FWIW, and speaking only for myself, should my compatriots vote to leave the EU, my very first move will be to apply for a French passport forthwith. I am planning to marry a French citizen in the meantime and would have no trouble getting one. Actually I’ve been here so long I could get one of the basis of residence but applying on the basis of marriage involves less paperwork. Being completely selfish for a moment, I have no interest in losing the advantages of being a citizen of an EU member state.)

On a completely different topic – Marine Le Pen’s odious Front National is courting Nigel Farage. She’s too toxic for him to handle (instead he’s been allying himself with a little anti-EU party headed by Nicolas Dupont-Aignan who exactly nobody is going to vote for come Sunday). Nonetheless I shall watch with interest to see whether he is prepared to do deals with the FN once they get into Parliament. The polls suggest that the FN are going to do extremely well – a combination of sticking it to the man, and frustration over unemployment and the economy. Marine Le Pen scares me immensely. She’s taken her father’s obviously xenophobic and racist party and turned it into something that outwardly looks quite modern, professional and respectable. The voter base is la France profonde especially in areas with high unemployment. Bashing migrants and the EU is the FN’s tartine* and UKIP is much closer to them than they like to admit.

* bread and butter
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.

---

And yet when the question is how to assure affordable housing for people on low incomes in London, your answer is that they should just move away from their 'communities' to places where they can afford housing and spend all their time commuting.

---

Well, you go where the work is, don't you? And you go where you can afford to live. The combo of those two processes should determine where you end up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Point of order - the West Midlands, Kidderminster in particular - had a massive Polish community long before the EU

---

Yeah, but that's Kidderminster. A town noted primarily for dodgy carpets and having a certain analogous resemblance to the contents of a Glastonbury portaloo on Monday morning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
I thought it said more about my admirable consistency. But hey, you're the one who threw in the blackshirt comment.

---

Consistently what, though?

Also, I think you'll find the blackshirt comment was the Daily Mail's, circa 1934.

---

And you threw it into the discussion as a smear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
If people are moving abroad because they want to, then how is that a problem?

---

I just don't understand it. I've lived my whole life (bar university and holidays) within a roughly ten-mile radius of where I was born, and I've never seen any need to leave. I mean, holidays are fine but to actually live somewhere else I'd need to learn a whole new language, learn how to fit in to a whole new culture, and start again from zero in terms of friends I can spend time with. I cannot see the attraction in that at all.

---

Because it's fun.

I have worked in both France and the Czech Republic, admittedly on a temporary basis in both cases. I value quite highly my ability to do that again.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.

---

And yet when the question is how to assure affordable housing for people on low incomes in London, your answer is that they should just move away from their 'communities' to places where they can afford housing and spend all their time commuting.

---

Well, you go where the work is, don't you? And you go where you can afford to live. The combo of those two processes should determine where you end up.

---

What when the intersection of those two sets - the set of place where there's work, and the set of places where you can afford to live, is a null set?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I just don't understand it. I've lived my whole life (bar university and holidays) within a roughly ten-mile radius of where I was born, and I've never seen any need to leave. I mean, holidays are fine but to actually live somewhere else I'd need to learn a whole new language, learn how to fit in to a whole new culture, and start again from zero in terms of friends I can spend time with. I cannot see the attraction in that at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And when you can't afford the commute, because it's 70 miles?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I have this theory. To adopt Le Guin's terms, people are either stabiles or mobiles. One likes familiarity, stability, continuity, tradition, values the things they know because they know them. The others like novelty, experimentation, are adapters and adopters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
When I see the contortions politicians from other parties get into now to side-step the question of whether Farage is a racist, whether his party are racists, whether his policies are racist, I am scared about the future of this country.

But then, I'm not white.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:


And they want to increase defence spending by £16 billion. In order to fund three floating targets that are almost as obsolete as the Battleship was in 1938.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I have this theory. To adopt Le Guin's terms, people are either stabiles or mobiles. One likes familiarity, stability, continuity, tradition, values the things they know because they know them. The others like novelty, experimentation, are adapters and adopters.

---

That's a good theory. And of course those in the former group have just as much right to campaign and vote for policies that suit them as those in the latter group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I would hate us to leave the EU - it would mean he'd become a German citizen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And when you can't afford the commute, because it's 70 miles?

---

quote:

---

Tangential, but we have a massive problem with trying to force the population into the SE corner of the country to work in London.

Commuting is part of the problem. The road and rail networks are congested, because we now consider it perfectly reasonable to expect people to live tens of miles from where they work. It's bonkers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I agree. Part of the problem though is not just that London is the capital but also that it is close to continental Europe and is becoming part of the "North-East France - Belgium - South Netherlands" uber-conurbation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I would hate us to leave the EU - it would mean he'd become a German citizen.

---

Why would that be the case? Europeans lived in Britain before she joined the EEC. Australians, Canadians and Russians live in the UK and they aren't in the EU.

---

quote:

---

When I see the contortions politicians from other parties get into now to side-step the question of whether Farage is a racist, whether his party are racists, whether his policies are racist, I am scared about the future of this country.

But then, I'm not white.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I would hate us to leave the EU - it would mean he'd become a German citizen. I see no point. A bit like the US - each country should be a 'state' of the EU imo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Being completely selfish for a moment, I have no interest in losing the advantages of being a citizen of an EU member state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I have this theory. To adopt Le Guin's terms, people are either stabiles or mobiles. One likes familiarity, stability, continuity, tradition, values the things they know because they know them. The others like novelty, experimentation, are adapters and adopters.

---

That's a good theory. And of course those in the former group have just as much right to campaign and vote for policies that suit them as those in the latter group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I have this theory. To adopt Le Guin's terms, people are either stabiles or mobiles. One likes familiarity, stability, continuity, tradition, values the things they know because they know them. The others like novelty, experimentation, are adapters and adopters.

---

That's a good theory. And of course those in the former group have just as much right to campaign and vote for policies that suit them as those in the latter group.

---

Sure, but campaigning to stay in the EU won't harm your ability to live in Birmingham. Whereas campaigning against it might well impair my ability to work in Paris or Plzeň.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed many do commute distances like that. But unless your work is quite well paid, it's not going to be possible to do it. Could you do it on £14K a year?

---

quote:

---

You are correct about London's location wrt Europe - this is why I would support HS2 if it allowed through trains from Europe via HS1 to the rest of the UK.. Because it doesn't, it's just a way for the well-off to work in London whilst living in nicer parts of the country (i.e. almost anywhere), which will make the problem worse for everyone else.

---

Agreed. I think the PTBs* have missed a trick there.

[*ETA - or, rather, we as a country have missed a trick; the Powers That Be may have their own reasons for buggering it up like that... ]

[ 22. May 2014, 16:40: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
 

---

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Well yes, but creating winners and losers, sometimes at quite fundamental levels, *is* sort of how democracy works....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So you don't want him to become German, but you're happy for him to become "European"? I fail to see the significant difference, to be honest...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, that's interesting! I've heard of English people leaving England due to their own xenophobia regarding their changing surroundings, but not due to the xenophobia of their countrymen (or their countrymen's newspapers)!

I suppose the long and short of it is that there's always a good reason to escape from these shores, irrespective of what Nigel Farage and co. might do or say!

---

No - not "due to". I had other - more positive - reasons. But once I had left, I quickly appreciated just what I had left behind and how better off I was without it. There is a poisonous attitude in the UK. I had realised this for some time but it is only when you are out of it that you can begin to see more clearly just how poisonous it is and how it infects almost everything.

Farage and UKIP are not the problem. They are just more overt than normal symptoms of the problem. One might even go so far as to say that they should be respected for being open in saying what so many people clearly think, but are too ashamed to admit to thinking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

I think one of the things that skews the migration for work question is the willingness to learn a foreign language. I can earn more here (as a legal assistant) than I would doing a comparable job in London, but the reason is that I speak fluent French. To put it bluntly, very few British people achieve this kind of competency in a foreign language (‘cause everyone speaks English, innit?). [...]
I think the day is going to come when the general crapness of British language-learning is going to bite the UK in the butt, actually. When we all welcome our new Chinese overlords, I don’t reckon our utter flummoxation in the face of the Mandarin language is going to help us any (joking – but not entirely ).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

The irony is that our society is becoming ever more multicultural, and more and more languages are represented in British playgrounds. But this doesn't seem to have led to any linguistic benefits for children as a whole. Middle class parents frequently see heavily multilingual playgrounds as a problem rather than an opportunity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Well yes, but creating winners and losers, sometimes at quite fundamental levels, *is* sort of how democracy works....

---

Yes, but my point was that the argument as stated created a loss for me without creating a win for Marvin, in that the supposed benefit he put forward is a benefit he can already enjoy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Out of interest, would you be willing to share with us where in the world you now are, where life is fun again?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Out of interest, would you be willing to share with us where in the world you now are, where life is fun again?

---

Canada

Life isn't perfect here (Rob Ford????) but it's a world away from the UK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Btw, Conrad Black's Canadian. And you had a go at the British media.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Out of interest, would you be willing to share with us where in the world you now are, where life is fun again?

---

Canada

Life isn't perfect here (Rob Ford????) but it's a world away from the UK.

---

I'm sorry, Oscar it is probably the country I'm most familiar with and in terms of general attitudes it's not that different fro. Britain. I envy you because I'd quite happily live there but you are not living in a non-racist environment without its own share of little Canada issues. How amusing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
A look at the percentage of foreign born people in each country is instructive. The 2013 list on Wikipedia puts the UK at 12.4%, US at 14.3%, Canada at 20.7%, New Zealand at 25.1% and Australia at 27.7%.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Yes and no. Large parts of Australia are made up of rather uninhabitable desert.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Thank you SvitlanaV2 for that contribution to the discussion. I hope Oscar the Grouch replies to the points you make.

On the subject of teaching languages, it seems to me that this is about confidence. In extremis I could communicate in Urdu and German (and probably Latin, not that there's much call for it) but would doubt my ability to actually do so. I've always had the ability to ask for a beer and an ashtray (interestingly enough) in several other languages. As a governor of a primary school I keep looking at the issue of what makes us so useless at speaking languages in this country. I'm convinced it is something simple. Perhaps if we taught sign language at an early age - a practical subject which parents would support and encourage. - we could teach confidence to communicate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Yes and no. Large parts of Australia are made up of rather uninhabitable desert.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I never said it was non-racist.

What I said was that the overall atmosphere was very different and in general, it is. Hugely different in my experience.

And your comment about Conrad Black is beside the point. As far as I can see, Canadian media in general is no where near as poisonous as the UK.

(I did add some other comments here but decided that I really couldn't be bothered. Why should I let Spawn try and kill my buzz?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Yes and no. Large parts of Australia are made up of rather uninhabitable desert.

---

There are some pretty hefty parts of the UK that aren't particularly suitable for large-scale habitation as well.

Not that it matters in this discussion. I get the impression that there are a few people on this thread who would still be arguing in favour of immigration if the entire country - moors, mountains and all - was full of twenty-storey tower blocks holding two families to an apartment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Yes and no. Large parts of Australia are made up of rather uninhabitable desert.

---

There are some pretty hefty parts of the UK that aren't particularly suitable for large-scale habitation as well.

Not that it matters in this discussion. I get the impression that there are a few people on this thread who would still be arguing in favour of immigration if the entire country - moors, mountains and all - was full of twenty-storey tower blocks holding two families to an apartment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

I think the problem is that of "which language".

For much of the world it's an easy question to answer. English. It's the language of most of the internet, much of the entertainment industry, of the massive North American continent, and because of the Empire it's a second language across much of the world. It's a bit of an obvious choice. The Anglophone has a less clear path. Without being able to see the future when a brilliant job opens up in Milan, he doesn't know how useful Italian might be. And if that job opens up in Budapest instead, it wouldn't be any use at all. To get the same advantage as many people across the world get from learning English, the Anglophone must learn many other languages.

I think that underlies a lot of it. I gave up and learnt Welsh instead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
PS I don't know which reports this person is using, but they put the amount of habitable land at 10% of Australia and 70% of the UK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
it makes the UK even more overpopulated compared to Australia than I had originally said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Dude, have you ever been to Australia?

---

quote:

---

Not only is it gobsmackingly huge, it's almost completely empty in a way that England never was.

---

quote:

---

That doesn't make the UK 'overpopulated', any more than comparing the UK to Singapore makes it underpopulated.

---

quote:

---

Just deal with the actual national figures as they stand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Thank you SvitlanaV2 for that contribution to the discussion. I hope Oscar the Grouch replies to the points you make.

On the subject of teaching languages, it seems to me that this is about confidence. In extremis I could communicate in Urdu and German (and probably Latin, not that there's much call for it) but would doubt my ability to actually do so. I've always had the ability to ask for a beer and an ashtray (interestingly enough) in several other languages. As a governor of a primary school I keep looking at the issue of what makes us so useless at speaking languages in this country. I'm convinced it is something simple. Perhaps if we taught sign language at an early age - a practical subject which parents would support and encourage. - we could teach confidence to communicate.

---

I think the problem is that of "which language".

For much of the world it's an easy question to answer. English. It's the language of most of the internet, much of the entertainment industry, of the massive North American continent, and because of the Empire it's a second language across much of the world. It's a bit of an obvious choice. The Anglophone has a less clear path. Without being able to see the future when a brilliant job opens up in Milan, he doesn't know how useful Italian might be. And if that job opens up in Budapest instead, it wouldn't be any use at all. To get the same advantage as many people across the world get from learning English, the Anglophone must learn many other languages. Traditionally, we learn French. Which is useful in France, Canada and a few places in North Africa, but not in the USA, the rest of Europe, the Far East... unless at the age of 8 we already have a burning desire to work in Marseilles one day, it's hard to demonstrate the value of it. Children in Germany learning English already know the value - accessing all that English language UK and US entertainment output, if nothing else.

I think that underlies a lot of it. I gave up and learnt Welsh instead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Just deal with the actual national figures as they stand.

---

If actually quoting the national figures in my posts doesn't count as doing that, I don't know what does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
Thank you SvitlanaV2 for that contribution to the discussion. I hope Oscar the Grouch replies to the points you make.

On the subject of teaching languages, it seems to me that this is about confidence. In extremis I could communicate in Urdu and German (and probably Latin, not that there's much call for it) but would doubt my ability to actually do so. I've always had the ability to ask for a beer and an ashtray (interestingly enough) in several other languages. As a governor of a primary school I keep looking at the issue of what makes us so useless at speaking languages in this country. I'm convinced it is something simple. Perhaps if we taught sign language at an early age - a practical subject which parents would support and encourage. - we could teach confidence to communicate.

---

I think the problem is that of "which language".

For much of the world it's an easy question to answer. English. It's the language of most of the internet, much of the entertainment industry, of the massive North American continent, and because of the Empire it's a second language across much of the world. It's a bit of an obvious choice. The Anglophone has a less clear path. Without being able to see the future when a brilliant job opens up in Milan, he doesn't know how useful Italian might be. And if that job opens up in Budapest instead, it wouldn't be any use at all. To get the same advantage as many people across the world get from learning English, the Anglophone must learn many other languages. Traditionally, we learn French. Which is useful in France, Canada and a few places in North Africa, but not in the USA, the rest of Europe, the Far East... unless at the age of 8 we already have a burning desire to work in Marseilles one day, it's hard to demonstrate the value of it. Children in Germany learning English already know the value - accessing all that English language UK and US entertainment output, if nothing else.

I think that underlies a lot of it. I gave up and learnt Welsh instead.

---

I agree that the choice of a second language is less obvious for children in the UK than for those in other European countries, but this doesn't really seem to imply the British are thus at a disadvantage with respect to finding foreign employment.

After all, those English-learning continentals aren't all emigrating to English-speaking countries. If the ability to speak English can help a German get that good job in Milan, the native English speaker should have even more of an advantage; and if knowing English isn't generally helpful, the German faces the same difficulty of choice that the Brit does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But you're making comparisons against other countries which are vastly different to the UK.

---

quote:

---

You say the UK is overpopulated: okay, what figure do you think it should be, and why?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The population density argument is, to use a term regularly employed by a recently departed shipmate, bollocks. Britain lies 51st (according to Wikipedia) in the population density league, and these aren't all Singapores, Maltas and similar crowded little former colonies. At least four countries geographically larger than Britain have greater populations and population density.

---

quote:

---

What matters is the attitude people have to one another. My view, for what it's worth, is that many who live in the UK (I can't comment on Ireland), which is supposedly famed for tolerance and freedom, are just too damn choosy about their neighbors and use flimsy excuses about unchecked immigration ruining the country when they simply want people just like themselves next door.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I think any time a country's population density gets over about 200 people per square kilometer (or per square kilometer of habitable land if you prefer, though that number will be reached far sooner) it's starting to get full. That would mean that of 244 countries or dependent territories in the world, around 60 are full (12 of which are smaller than 100 square km in size and 2 of which are Macau and Hong Kong). Source.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You realise that this is an entirely arbitrary number.

---

quote:

---

London has a population density of over 5,000/km2, so clearly 200/km2 isn't at a point where people go mad and cats and dogs are doing it in the street.

---

quote:

---

Why 200?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
and our apartments are all cupboards

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Maybe not, but I'd hate to live there. And I wouldn't want the whole country to be like London. Would you?

And yes, I do live in the West Midlands conurbation (pop. density just over 4k). But I've always lived on the outskirts, within very easy reach of nice open countryside where I can go if I need some space to breathe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density.

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quote:

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One aspect of the issue of controlling immigration that has never made sense to me is that it is typically the free-market ideologues who are most in favour of restricting immigration.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density.

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Why on earth would we want to live at Manhattan density though?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Here, for example, is a right-wing libertarian magazine from the US attacking Farange's anti-immigration stance...

The UKIP Was Wrong About Immigration

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quote:

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Why wouldn't we? You already live in a high density city: you'd not notice.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Here, for example, is a right-wing libertarian magazine from the US attacking Farange's anti-immigration stance...

The UKIP Was Wrong About Immigration

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In most metrics, right libertarians see right authoritarians (aka 'national socialists') as wrong.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Does the UKIP present itself as a free-market party?

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quote:

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Having said that I voted UKIP last night in the Euro election . So the question is ... Why have I , (a life-long liberal), and thousands like me , been moved to vote for far right politics ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density.

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Why on earth would we want to live at Manhattan density though?

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Why wouldn't we? You already live in a high density city: you'd not notice.

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Originally posted by Stetson:
They build vertically, with most people living in high-rise apartment blocks, so residential isn't really taking up that much space.

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That said, compared to my hometown, and Canada generally, there isn't a lot of green space. You can't really go out to the country and look around without seeing some nearby sign of human habitation. But I'd imagine you get the same thing in most European countries.

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No, pretty much all of them have nice big areas of countryside where you can be miles away from anything and anyone.

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I never said [Canada] was non-racist.

What I said was that the overall atmosphere was very different and in general, it is. Hugely different in my experience.

[...] As far as I can see, Canadian media in general is no where near as poisonous as the UK.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But you're making comparisons against other countries which are vastly different to the UK.

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I'll grant you that. But I didn't start it - that would be all those who were saying "other countries have a higher percentage of immigrants, so what are you complaining about?"

If the comparison is invalid one way, it's invalid both ways. Conversely, if it's valid one way then it's valid both ways. I'm happy to go with either option.

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
I agree that the choice of a second language is less obvious for children in the UK than for those in other European countries, but this doesn't really seem to imply the British are thus at a disadvantage with respect to finding foreign employment.

After all, those English-learning continentals aren't all emigrating to English-speaking countries. If the ability to speak English can help a German get that good job in Milan, the native English speaker should have even more of an advantage; and if knowing English isn't generally helpful, the German faces the same difficulty of choice that the Brit does.

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No, but learn one and you can probably pick up another one. Those children learning English for the purpose of films and rock music might find it easier to then, later in life, learn Italian or whatever.

Grow up monoglot, with no obvious-to-a-teenager reason to learn anything else, and your always trying to add one to English, not x to native plus English.

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If I was interviewing only two candidates for a job in Milan for which English was useful but Italian was necessary and they were a monoglot Englishman and a German who spoke English, I would definitely (all other points being equal between them) go for the German, because I'd have more confidence that the Italian would come in time.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To end on a multicultural note, let's remember that London is now described as one of the most (if not the most) ethnically diverse cities in the world. White Britons are now in the minority in four English and cities, and others (including mine) are set to follow. People have come here in unprecedented numbers over the past 15 years because it's an appealing place to be - and it makes sense for politicians, newspapers and businesses to appeal to an increasingly important constituency.

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And it is worth noting that the council election results have shown that London is the place where UKIP has failed to make much of an impact.

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Originally posted by rolyn:
No coincidence that the London bubble zone, unlike the rest of the UK, is beginning to enjoy that post-recession feeling.

If the tories pray hard enough for a general Countrywide recovery then maybe, just maybe they'll be able to halt the advance of a previously obscure political party.

An electorate with a full purse is so much more easily pacified.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
No coincidence that the London bubble zone, unlike the rest of the UK, is beginning to enjoy that post-recession feeling.

If the tories pray hard enough for a general Countrywide recovery then maybe, just maybe they'll be able to halt the advance of a previously obscure political party.

An electorate with a full purse is so much more easily pacified.

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I think this the key. The tory right wing are part of the story, but the bigger issue are the same white working class folk who were seduced by the BNP a few years ago. They've seen no improvement in living standards pretty much since the 70s. Cheap electronics, sure, but it's got no easier to afford food, heat, power and rent. Fascists are able to exploit this by blaming it on immigration, rather than the (actually culpable) Thatcherite consensus that has meant only the rich have got the benefits of economic growth. The good news is that British fascists are lousy at running things, so once people have had 5 years of useless UKIP councillors they'll drop them, just as they did the BNP.

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of.

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Ukip , IMO, has succeed in becoming the 'thinking person's' BNp.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

There might be some merit in just saying 'we'll campaign for withdrawal from the EU and, once this has been achieved, we'll dissolve ourselves'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of.

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Ukip , IMO, has succeed in becoming the 'thinking person's' BNp.

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If you know them to be the thinking person's BNP - why on earth did you vote for them ?

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This is but one example of the irrationality of far right politics and, more importantly, the places from whence it's support arises.
Having said that I voted UKIP last night in the Euro election . So the question is ... Why have I , (a life-long liberal), and thousands like me , been moved to vote for far right politics ?

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(It might actually be reasonable to have no party discipline on this at all, and leave it to individual members - so that you could in principle have a "Tory" UKIP MP who voted for withdrawal from the EU and also for IDS-style welfare reforms etc., and you could have a "Labour" UKIP MP who voted for withdrawal from the EU and for increased power for the unions.)

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
the hardline racist vote is split between Britain First, the BNP and the English Democrats.

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Originally posted by rolyn:
Or could even general fear over climate chaos be a driver ?

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
Isn't the point that UKIP makes repeatedly is that trading with Europe and being a member of the EU aren't the same thing? There can be discussion, sure, about the details of that (how would it work? Would there be advantages? Would there be disadvantages?) but holding that basic belief doesn't make one 'thick', does it?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, presumably a general election will compel UKIP to produce some more policies, about which they seem rather coy at the moment. I suppose basing an election on anti-EU and immigration will work at the moment.

I keep hearing noises about other UKIP policies - e.g. getting rid of maternity benefit, employment laws, more privatization in the NHS, and so on. I don't know how real these are, as it seems quite difficult to find out!

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quote:

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a return to proper dress in hotels, restaurants and theatres

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
If you know them to be the thinking person's BNP - why on earth did you vote for them ?

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think the assumption that will Britain will be able to throw its weight around successfully in such negotiations, is just as naive as the Scottish nationalist's assumption that they can walk straight into the same agreements the UK currently has.

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:
highlights include:
- a return to proper dress in hotels, restaurants and theatres
-reintroduction of Pullman trains
- the resurrection of the Great Western Railway (last seen before nationalisation in 1948) - apparently just because really...
- government mandated return to traditional railway liveries
-banning university level European Studies courses

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think the assumption that will Britain will be able to throw its weight around successfully in such negotiations, is just as naive as the Scottish nationalist's assumption that they can walk straight into the same agreements the UK currently has.

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The UK is the world's sixth-largest economy. I think with the right team an amicable divorce is quite possible. We might debate how realistic that is, but I wouldn't have thought anyone arguing for or against that position was 'thick'.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
The UK is the world's sixth-largest economy. I think with the right team an amicable divorce is quite possible. We might debate how realistic that is, but I wouldn't have thought anyone arguing for or against that position was 'thick'.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Tempted to vote BNP !?!

Possibly there is not a lot of point in our having a conversation. Because there is no way on God's green earth that was ever your only option for a protest vote.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
What effect of mass immigration ?

The recession is not, and was not, caused by immigration.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
(Especially as there is good evidence that immigration improves economic performance, and we need all the help we can get in that direction.)

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Rupert Myers, a Guardian writer who seems to have have been somehow involved with left-of-centre campaigns in the election(though it's not clear in what capacity), argues that racism is of comparitively minor importance among the reasons for UKIP's electoral appeal.

He also makes the related observation that the UKIP's lack of support in London is not because London is more tolerant, but because it is more affluent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:


The blunt truth is that without the immigrants (be they Polish, Romanian, Pakistani or whoever) coming and working here, the UK would not be able (in the long run) to generate enough tax to pay pensions etc. The economic necessity of immigration is pretty overwhelming.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
When what they should be doing is trying to change the perception not pandering to it - if they know it to be false.

If they knew it to be true, that would be a good reason to try to reduce immigration.

(Especially as there is good evidence that immigration improves economic performance, and we need all the help we can get in that direction.)

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
The recession is not, and was not, caused by immigration.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The problem some commentators note, though, is that immigrants themselves grow old and need care. They'll have fewer children, who will in any case become 'assimilated', thus becoming unwilling or unable do the jobs their parents did; so yet more immigrants will be needed.

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'Remember what we started with in the UK: an economy built on the worst deficit, the most leveraged banks, the most indebted households, the biggest housing boom and unsustainable levels of public spending and immigration.'

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

Also, I thought it was pretty much widely accepted that the vast majority of new jobs created in Britain in the 2000s actually went to immigrants? (Some estimates put the figure at over 90%.) While that's not exactly 'they're nicking our jobs' one can see how it might create some degree of resentment.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Unemployment in the UK is currently just over two million people.

We have had threads on this board in which posters who suggest that those people should go out and get jobs are shouted down on the grounds that there simply aren't enough jobs out there for them all.

And yet the same people saying there aren't enough jobs for all the unemployed people will then turn up on threads such as this one and say that we need more people of working age in the country.

One or other of those arguments must, logically, be false. Either there are plenty of jobs (in which case it's perfectly valid to question why so many people don't want to do them), or there aren't enough jobs (in which case bringing in more immigrants is just going to increase the number of unemployed people in the country).

Which is it?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the farmer next door to me (anecdote coming up), just says that he employs East Europeans on the land, because the local English youths can't be arsed to bend their back picking the sugarbeet.

He also says that they prefer sitting in their bedroom playing X-box. Somehow, I doubt that, since you can't just draw unemployment pay these days, while sitting on your backside.

Still, it's a common opinion in Norfolk.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the farmer next door to me (anecdote coming up), just says that he employs East Europeans on the land, because the local English youths can't be arsed to bend their back picking the sugarbeet.

He also says that they prefer sitting in their bedroom playing X-box. Somehow, I doubt that, since you can't just draw unemployment pay these days, while sitting on your backside.

Still, it's a common opinion in Norfolk.

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It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the farmer next door to me (anecdote coming up), just says that he employs East Europeans on the land, because the local English youths can't be arsed to bend their back picking the sugarbeet.

He also says that they prefer sitting in their bedroom playing X-box. Somehow, I doubt that, since you can't just draw unemployment pay these days, while sitting on your backside.

Still, it's a common opinion in Norfolk.

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It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

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But they've always used vans to bring labour in, as yes, there are no buses. 20 years ago, the field workers were all English. There is an argument that furriners accept lower wages, but I don't know about that. Presumably, they get the minimum wage, although you hear horror stories of lower wages.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Local observation: Since the weekend, various people seems to feel that they can be as openly verbally racist as they like. Last week this would not have been the case.

Is anyone else finding this?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Nor would they if they'd known that was what was meant by "accommodation and transport provided" on the ad they answered back in their original country. In some cases, at any rate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

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Nor would they if they'd known that was what was meant by "accommodation and transport provided" on the ad they answered back in their original country. In some cases, at any rate.

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I was just thinking - low pay, shit conditions, no union membership, no holiday pay, no sick pay, instant dismissal - it's UKIP heaven, isn't it? O Brave New World.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Karl

So you are saying that it's cheaper for the gangmaster to use foreign labour? Yes, maybe that's correct. Some of them are housed in horrible huts and cabins, which probably English guys would not tolerate.

---

Nor would they if they'd known that was what was meant by "accommodation and transport provided" on the ad they answered back in their original country. In some cases, at any rate.

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I was just thinking - low pay, shit conditions, no union membership, no holiday pay, no sick pay, instant dismissal - it's UKIP heaven, isn't it? O Brave New World.

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Why would UKIP want that if it means high immigration?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would UKIP want that if it means high immigration?

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Doug Saunders argues that the far-right gains are less impressive than they seem at first glance.

Basically, once you sweep away the media hype, most Eurpeans rejected the far-right, no other parties will work with them, and some of the anti-Europe vote actually went to the left. Or so Saunders argues.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

---

Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was just thinking - low pay, shit conditions, no union membership, no holiday pay, no sick pay, instant dismissal - it's UKIP heaven, isn't it? O Brave New World.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Also, what's the issue with suggesting people could be racist - the vast majority of the UK population were until at least the latter part of the twentieth century - its not like you could throw a switch and change the attitudes of centuries overnight.

(I am struggling to understand on what basis you describe yourself as liberal btw.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

---

Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

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It does rather presuppose that there is a bus to use a travel pass on. Without any form of public transport a travel card is a worthless piece of paper.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

---

Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

---

It does rather presuppose that there is a bus to use a travel pass on. Without any form of public transport a travel card is a worthless piece of paper.

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And since since Thatcher we've been labouring under the misapprehension that the primary purpose of running a bus company is to make money, rather than to provide public transport, most often there isn't one.

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quote:

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's probably more a case that it's rather difficult to get to a field ten miles from the nearest bus route somewhere south of Sheringham at 6am, unless you've got a gangmaster filling up a transit van to drive out there.

---

Yes, like I said earlier, in Germany travel passes are often given by the employer. My son had them for all his low paid jobs for tram, bus and train, it's also much much more bike -friendly there. If we gave travel passes to the unemployed we'd be getting somewhere imo. People simply can't afford to travel to minimum wage jobs.

---

It does rather presuppose that there is a bus to use a travel pass on. Without any form of public transport a travel card is a worthless piece of paper.

---

And since since Thatcher we've been labouring under the misapprehension that the primary purpose of running a bus company is to make money, rather than to provide public transport, most often there isn't one.

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Goes back a wee bit further than that - I refer you to the Reshaping of Britain's Railways (1963); otherwise known around the bazaars as the Beeching Axe.

This was a bit like having a tripartite secondary school system, but never really building the third leg (technical schools).

Concomitant to the line closures was an assumption (on Beeching's part)/promise (on the government's) that all services on all closed lines would be replaced with bus routes.

Which didn't happen.

Even though buses were nationalised at the time.

Hence, whole areas which had rail links suddenly had no links (except private cars).

And the majority of closures happened through 1964, which makes the aftermath (and failure to do anything about it) Harold Wilson's fault. But then he closed more coal mines than Thatcher too....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
I suspect that people who voted UKIP are more concerned about the (perceived) scale of immigration and (perceived) lack of integration (which, although discrete, are perhaps linked) than they are about the fact of immigration or indeed the race of the immigrants.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh look, my lack of surprise is depressing me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If the government had acted properly on the architects of the economic collapse, who have largely got away scot-free with all our money and are still able to pay themselves vast wealth they've neither earned or created, then I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh look, my lack of surprise is depressing me.

---

Interesting observation about the survey in question - it doesn't have any indication of the ethnic breakdown of the respondents. Quite a glaring omission, I'd have said!

I point this out because here in the West Midlands, apparently the worst area for racism in the country, there is a not-insignificant amount of tension between the Asian (Pakistani/Indian rather than Chinese/Japanese) and Carribbean communities. I've heard some really nasty stuff being said by people from each of those communities about the other, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was responsible for a reasonable amount of the reported prejudice.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh look, my lack of surprise is depressing me.
Interesting observation about the survey in question - it doesn't have any indication of the ethnic breakdown of the respondents. Quite a glaring omission, I'd have said!

I point this out because here in the West Midlands, apparently the worst area for racism in the country, there is a not-insignificant amount of tension between the Asian (Pakistani/Indian rather than Chinese/Japanese) and Carribbean communities. I've heard some really nasty stuff being said by people from each of those communities about the other, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was responsible for a reasonable amount of the reported prejudice.


I agree it would be an issue, and probably one of the reasons for the support of UKIP by some people with an ethnic minority background.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Rupert Myers, a Guardian writer who seems to have have been somehow involved with left-of-centre campaigns in the election(though it's not clear in what capacity), argues that racism is of comparitively minor importance among the reasons for UKIP's electoral appeal.

He also makes the related observation that the UKIP's lack of support in London is not because London is more tolerant, but because it is more affluent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:

Mysteriously it's the people living furthest from high density populations, and in the regions with fewest immigrants that are most likely to vote UKIP.

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Well, this kind of gibes well with the observation that a large percentage of UKIP *voters* as opposed to candidates, are former Tories over the age of 40. It's the classic squeezed middle, who are relatively okay economically but who fear their future after the economic squeeze of the last few years.

So the it's the fear of change rather than necessarily the reality of change that drives them. This is also probably why they put the EU as way down their agenda (compared to the NHS etc).

Given that this runs counter to the euro-obsessive and glibertarian tendency in UKIPs rank and file, it's no wonder that Farage makes up policy on the fly.
 

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Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on :
 
One thought has also crossed my mind, is the UKIP avalanche in the Euro elections a flash in the pan or a genuine shift in the British political landscape?

Personally, I can't work this out.

I am old enough to remember the ''gang of four'' (Shirley williams etc. ) in the 1980s. Much of the hubris does tend to die out after a while; I really don't know with UKIP and Nigel Farage.

What we do know is Farage has handed over much of the work to trusted deputies, so we'll see less of Nigel on our screens and more from his henchmen.

Saul
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
..who will hopefully bog it up.

I think it is a 'surge' rather than a permanent fixture. I remember the SDP too and also the Greens doing very well in the Euro elections I the last decade only to fall back again (that said, they now have a Westminster MP).
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
One feature of fringe (especially mostly single policy) parties is that if they do well in elections then the major parties take notice. Significant electoral success in local and European elections, and a good share of the vote for a general election, says that a lot of people are sufficiently concerned about a particular issue to vote for someone who is very unlikely to actually represent them (a so-called "wasted vote" ). When that happened for the Greens the major parties started to include elements of the Green manisfesto into their own manifestos, the electorate could then put a cross next to a party that at least said it was going to enact environmentally friendly policies and also had a good chance of being in a position to actually do something.

Labour and the Tories are already falling over themselves to be seen as "tough on immigration", suggestions of an in/out referendum on Europe are also a similar effect of UKIP success. The election has shown that these are important issues for a large proportion of the electorate (maybe not the most important), and the major parties want to be seen to be listening to the voters. There will now be a flurry of opinion polls so that Labour and Conservative party bean counters can work out whether they will see a net gain or loss of votes (or, more importantly, seats in Westminster as they look at the demographics of key marginals) if they actively adopt central parts of the UKIP manifesto.
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
One thought has also crossed my mind, is the UKIP avalanche in the Euro elections a flash in the pan or a genuine shift in the British political landscape?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Has anyone got a handy graphic as to how it might pan out if the results were repeated at a General Election?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
Like this ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Has anyone got a handy graphic as to how it might pan out if the results were repeated at a General Election?

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Well,

this might help Matt Black

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

The probability is a Labour majority in 2015 - but as they say a week is a long time in politics and well, a year, is an eternity away

Saul
 

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