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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How many Archdeacons is too many?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
The Diocese of Chichester has been given permission to have a fourth Archdeacon, to cover the area around Brighton & Hove and Lewes.
No doubt any question raised as to the need for a fourth will quote the administrative shambles that has existed for so long in the diocese; possibly it will also quote the geographical shape of the diocese (often quoted as if a long, think stretch of land were something unique to the DofC).
But bearing in mind that the church is also always reminding us how strapped it is for cash, how can this be justified? Might it not be better to improve administration by qualified lay people - dare I say it, an HR professional?
Your thoughts.
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
Why would an HR professional want to take on a (dis)organisation such the Anglican Church?
Particularly since said (dis)organisation is not really an "employer" at all, so any HR expertise is useless in the face of reactionary intransigence and the refusal to admit that people paid to work for you are actual human beings, not just anti-gay puppets?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Every diocese should have an HR adviser already. I am aware that some dioceses are sharing HR resources. That's fine, except where the HR person is being spread too thinly to make any noticeable difference. And not all HR advisers are actually properly qualified for the role. But Chichester should already have someone for HR - especially given their recent history.
Going back to the question of the number of archdeacons - I think that the diocese needs to make a very strong case for increasing to 4, when many other dioceses have 2. As it stands, it looks as if it just another example of the C of E's "top heavy" approach to life. It's a habit they really need to get help for.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
quote:
Particularly since said (dis)organisation is not really an "employer" at all, so any HR expertise is useless in the face of reactionary intransigence and the refusal to admit that people paid to work for you are actual human beings, not just anti-gay puppets?
You've genuinely lost me there HB. Any chance of expanding it a bit?
Having read through a lot of the case notes relating to the recent unpleasantness in this diocese, then whatever the internal failings - which are manifest, there's also a strong sense of the diocese being used as a dumping ground for problem candidates from other dioceses. If my antennae are correct then perhaps there could even be a case for more archdeacons to regularise things. At least on a short to medium term basis.
Though my heart is with l'organist's solution in the longer term. Indeed, I would strip all administrative functions from clergy. It's a skill that having a clerical calling rarely comes with. Actually, I would like to see us return to having bishops who are simply the vicars of towns and cities, and paid (+ accommodated) accordingly. Concentrate on the main business.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It is a standard panic response - in the CofE and other places - to introduce more management when there is a problem. It rarely works.
I do think an approach where the church is run as a business - or series of businesses - for all of the practical matters. Because it is a business (well charity, but even a charity is a business), and should be run on proper lines. It should only take a few people to manage a diocese if that is their job.
Then the Bishops would have the role of spiritual overseers, and the church could focus on supporting people with pastoral and people skills, rather than managerial skills. It would be an indication that individual churches could do the same.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Why on earth does the diocese think it needs another Archdeacon? And is it a full-time appointment ? (Most Archdeacons in the CinW, I think, are also parish clergy- which of course was the CofE practice in the old days). Of course, the Scots get on without them at all, don't they? Oh, but don't get an HR professional in: IME the thing that almost (almost, mind) all HR professionals have in common is a complete inability to get on with and understand people.
[ 22. May 2014, 19:23: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
How many is not the question. What they do will determine the number you need. Looking at the diocese and its 21 deaneries, I am not certain that four is too many. As well, it's not entirely clear to me if they are expected to have the charge of parishes as well.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The Diocese of Chichester has been given permission to have a fourth Archdeacon ...
We've just got a new bishop and we're installing six archdeacons tomorrow ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
In fairness, our diocese is geographically quite complicated - it occupies two separate chunks of rock, with a rather temperamental stretch of water in between, and transport is quite a challenge. Also, included in the six are the administrative archdeacon and the Bishop's chaplain, which perhaps makes it sound a bit less excessive.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Given that Chichester contains clergy from both extremes of the CoE, I'm not surprised they want more management. I heard that this was planned, I think - I know they want to have Brighton & Hove dealt with primarily by East Sussex, which given that East Sussex is incredibly conservative evangelical will be sure to make some heads explode.
The long thin stretch of land thing is a bit of an odd argument though - Peterborough diocese is long and thin and odd in terms of geography, and is also conservative, yet doesn't seem to require the kind of management that Chichester does...
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I've yet to see an HR department offer any improvement to anyone's life experience...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
We've just got a new bishop and we're installing six archdeacons tomorrow ...
perhaps makes it sound a bit less excessive.
Perhaps you will be collating, rather than installing, them Piglet.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The Diocese of Chichester has been given permission to have a fourth Archdeacon ...
We've just got a new bishop and we're installing six archdeacons tomorrow ...
In fairness, our diocese is geographically quite complicated - it occupies two separate chunks of rock, with a rather temperamental stretch of water in between, and transport is quite a challenge. Also, included in the six are the administrative archdeacon and the Bishop's chaplain, which perhaps makes it sound a bit less excessive.
As mentioned above, we don't have any archdeacons (we have a dean and I think 5 stipendiary clergy) and this diocese includes 42 separate inhabited chunks of rock surrounded by rather treacherous waters. Do we win a prize? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
In all fairness, I'm not sure the Bishop can help needing another (& I don't think he needs permission?). It's one of those "I wouldn't start from here, if I were you" arguments.
Ideal world - scrap the deaneries, a waste of time anyway. Increase your number of archdeaconries - archdeacons in parish appointments. Get some proper professionals in for the central bureaucracy.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
As the city of Ottawa has three archdeacons (four, if we include the Executive Archdeacon and five, if we include the suburban sprawl of Carleton), I think we could easily spare one for Arethosemyfeet's diocese. One of them, I think, has solid canoeing experience and so would not likely have trouble navigating your archipelago.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But bearing in mind that the church is also always reminding us how strapped it is for cash, how can this be justified? Might it not be better to improve administration by qualified lay people - dare I say it, an HR professional?
Perhaps because a decent HR professional would cost much more than an Archdeacon? I don't know the stipends and differentials that apply in Chichester, but if an Archdeacon receives less than £30k I doubt you would get someone to manage your HR for that.
Gerasu is probably right, anyway ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But bearing in mind that the church is also always reminding us how strapped it is for cash, how can this be justified? Might it not be better to improve administration by qualified lay people - dare I say it, an HR professional?
Perhaps because a decent HR professional would cost much more than an Archdeacon? I don't know the stipends and differentials that apply in Chichester, but if an Archdeacon receives less than £30k I doubt you would get someone to manage your HR for that.
Gerasu is probably right, anyway
On the other hand, you'd need to provide a house for your archdeacon, which in Chichester would equate to quite a substantial salary bump - possibly boosting the putative HR bod's income above 50k.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Large pockets of the diocese of Chichester have some of the lowest wages in SE England - the normal salary for an HR professional in Chichester itself is, I'm told, c£30,000 - and that doesn't include a house.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Wages may be low (although not around Brighton & Hove and Lewes, wages are lowest I'm guessing in and around Hastings) but housing is not cheap, especially around fashionable upper-middle class areas in Brighton & Hove and Lewes. Brighton still has pockets of severe deprivation but mostly in local authority housing - private rental costs and house prices are very high.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given that Chichester contains clergy from both extremes of the CoE, I'm not surprised they want more management. I heard that this was planned, I think - I know they want to have Brighton & Hove dealt with primarily by East Sussex, which given that East Sussex is incredibly conservative evangelical will be sure to make some heads explode.
The long thin stretch of land thing is a bit of an odd argument though - Peterborough diocese is long and thin and odd in terms of geography, and is also conservative, yet doesn't seem to require the kind of management that Chichester does...
On what basis do you see East Sussex and Peterborough as being conservative? I holiday in east Sussex and my view of the Rye end is that it's a million miles from conservative. I can't think of that many evo places in Peterborough outside Northampton.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I've been ordained more than 20 years and I still haven't a clue what an archdeacon is for - except that they're the person who says, when contacted, that X, Y or Z isn't their problem.
Presumably the job description involves some ceremonial duties for which it's required to be ordained, and some administrative duties for which it isn't? If that's so, then why not have one "ceremonial" archdeacon per diocese and several lower-paid non-ordained admin workers?
(I work for the NHS. People sometimes say NHS management is a mess, but from where I'm sitting it's a hundred times better than anything the CofE has got.)
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Presumably Adeodatus, you wouldn't get to see much of the archdeacon because you are outside the parish structure (or at least I assume you are which may not be exactly the same thing).
I suppose "the bishop's hit man" would be my usual job description for an archdeacon. Though that's undoubtedly unfair at the personal level - I've known a couple who were conscientious and kind way beyond the call of duty.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Presumably Adeodatus, you wouldn't get to see much of the archdeacon because you are outside the parish structure (or at least I assume you are which may not be exactly the same thing).
Being outside the parish system, I try my level best to see nothing of the archdeacon, or any of the rest of the hierarchy for that matter. I work within a very good management system; I really don't want to add a second, rather bad, management system to it. My experiences of archdeacons are almost exclusively from my parish days.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given that Chichester contains clergy from both extremes of the CoE, I'm not surprised they want more management. I heard that this was planned, I think - I know they want to have Brighton & Hove dealt with primarily by East Sussex, which given that East Sussex is incredibly conservative evangelical will be sure to make some heads explode.
The long thin stretch of land thing is a bit of an odd argument though - Peterborough diocese is long and thin and odd in terms of geography, and is also conservative, yet doesn't seem to require the kind of management that Chichester does...
On what basis do you see East Sussex and Peterborough as being conservative? I holiday in east Sussex and my view of the Rye end is that it's a million miles from conservative. I can't think of that many evo places in Peterborough outside Northampton.
Are you kidding? East Sussex is MASSIVELY con-evo, particularly around Eastbourne and especially when Wallace Benn was still Bishop of Lewes (surely you must have heard of him and his conservatism?). It's well known for being one of the most conservative evangelical parts of the CoE. Lots of conservative evangelical businesses eg Kingsway Music are based there, and there are some huge NFI churches (pretty sure it is mostly NFI not Vineyard). Lewes is mostly con-evo for historical reasons, and I lived in Eastbourne for many years and it's almost entirely con-evo - there is also at least one FiF A-C church though very few A-C churches generally.
Peterborough as a diocese is fairly conservative but that's split between A-C and evangelical. Northampton is mostly FiF, one con-evo Anglican church. It isn't nearly as conservative as Chichester diocese though.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Northampton is mostly FiF.
That surprises me - the great St. Matthew's chose not to vote on the resolutions for fear of dividing the congregation.
St Matthews is A and B but not C. However that's just one church and most churches are FiF, particularly All Saints.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Interesting - things have changed since I was there about 5 years ago.
I went to a weekday mass at All Saints which was celebrated by a retired priest, whose late wife was also a priest. I note that the current vicar was previously at the FiF parish in Swindon.
Visiting S. Matthew's later, I was told by the church watcher that they hadn't voted on the resolutions.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Why not have one "ceremonial" archdeacon per diocese and several lower-paid non-ordained admin workers?
Just curious: why assume the administrative ones should be less well paid?
And we'll leave my opinion of managers out of this...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Interesting - things have changed since I was there about 5 years ago.
I went to a weekday mass at All Saints which was celebrated by a retired priest, whose late wife was also a priest. I note that the current vicar was previously at the FiF parish in Swindon.
Visiting S. Matthew's later, I was told by the church watcher that they hadn't voted on the resolutions.
Yes, I think the voting is pretty recent. They are however supporting a woman in their congregation going for ordination.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just to put it into perspective, how many archdeacons does it take to run a multi-country, multi-language Archdiocese , especially when the places may be separated by several other countries?
Other cases, such as the North of Canada or the Pacific, offer sheer geographic size problems as well.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Just to put it into perspective, how many archdeacons does it take to run a multi-country, multi-language Archdiocese , especially when the places may be separated by several other countries?
Other cases, such as the North of Canada or the Pacific, offer sheer geographic size problems as well.
Gibraltar etc has a much larger group of parishes and tons of admin work for archdeacons (Eastern Europe alone has 25 sets of property, employment, and marriage laws to keep track of) so that 7 doesn't seem exhorbitant. Northern dioceses in Canada don't seem to do the archidiaconal model in a uniform way: The Arctic (Nunavut and NT) has 7 deaneries and no archdeaconries, and there are generally only about a half-dozen parishes per deanery; Athabasca (Alberta) has two deaneries and an archdeacon for mission development; the Yukon *(Yukon Terr. and a bit of BC) has a diocesan archdeacon; Algoma's 182,000 sq km (just in Ontario) has 50 parishes but 6 archdeacons and 5 deaneries.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Why not have one "ceremonial" archdeacon per diocese and several lower-paid non-ordained admin workers?
Just curious: why assume the administrative ones should be less well paid?
And we'll leave my opinion of managers out of this...
Well, perhaps you could downgrade the ceremonial one, too, if you reduced their job description. Or link it with a parish post.
As mentioned upthread, archdeacons are expensive. By contrast - though I admit to guessing a bit here - your basic HR adviser would come in at about £16-21k. (I'm guessing from the pay banding of equivalent NHS professionals.) And no free house / expenses / etc etc.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Archdeacons are only expensive when you want them to be. In the Diocese of Ottawa, for an extraordinarily long time they received $800 a year for their services. They can easily do the job for a curate's stipend plus allowances, if you want a full-time one. Or just select them from members of religious orders.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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