Ship of Fools: Is anyone listening?

Thread: Is anyone listening? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Spawn (# 4867) on :

Public bodies, in my experience are always consulting. Very often it is a statutory requirement for authorities like schools to consult over certain changes. As a school governor and a parent I've been involved on both sides of consultations. The thing I noticed as a school governor is that even over very important changes nobody responded to the consultation document. I'd like to think that this was because our decision making was so good but probably more to do with the fact that the head teacher was approachable and approved of by parents.

As a respondee to consultations I find them frustrating. I suspect the vast majority of consultations are sham. The decision has already been taken. A recent consultation on shortening the school day by my children's secondary school gave parents just over a week to respond. That truncated timescale makes me very suspicious. I responded to a consultation on the closure of our Local authority's youth service. The consultation felt like a pointless waste of time but the protest and petitions resulted in a partial retreat.
Strangely enough this protest against budget cuts was led by the youth service - one of those examples of a public body lobbying itself and paying itself to do so.

Are there good consultations? Do public bodies ever listen?

Posted by Candide (# 15755) on :

As a bureaucrat, member of the one and only profession that ranks lower than lawyers, I can relate. I'm sometimes one of the persons being consulted, and a rare few times I get to be the one trying to add up the opinions of the consulted voices.

The short answer on whether or not consultations matter is : It varies.

The longer answer is that the closer your everyday connection with the body who will make the decision is, the more weight your words add. The opinions my department gives, carries considerable weight with a few closely associated bodies. Departments organizationally more distant, will however rarely be influenced.

While I am obviously no mind reader, then my gut feeling tends to be that for a consultation to be relevant to whoever reads it, then he or she needs to have some previous familiarity with whoever is behind the statement, and preferably have a minimum of respect for their work. By being a "someone" to the decision-maker, your words get to matter. If you're a "no one" on the other hand, your words have less effect - even if it is a change that will impact your life considerably.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I worked in government at the start of my career, in business for 25 since.

As you note, and I agree, my take on consultation is that sometimes they aren't real consultations. They are more of a communication as to the plan the bureaucrats which to implement. The consultation is actually an exercise so as claim consultation but really is a forcing through of what they and their political overseers want. I've seen this about urban/street/park design, school programs, industrial development.

On the other side, it is possible to have real consultations, but it is necessary to locate actual stakeholders and to get them to participate. This is frequently not about announcing a meeting and expecting people to show up. Nor is a consultation real if there is a mere week to respond. In these cases, the only effective thing is to attack the process. It gets political at that point.

I was responsible for revision of several provincial programs in the 1980s. Proper consultation took months. Chasing down people by phone, going to their offices, holding multi-site phone conferences. It is tedious, long term and difficult to do.

And bureaucrats status and reputation? I think most of them are trying really hard. But there is a sea change with the push through mentality, which I attribute to the business-corporate Zeitgeist that contaminates everything these days.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

We've just had so-called consultation near me about a proposed wind farm.

Why so-called?

Well, it consisted of a FAQ (frequently asked questions) sheet distributed by the consortium wishing to develop the wind-farm, so was basically a long justification from them for their project with no input from anyone else. Attached to it was a response form to be sent to the local authority: nowhere on this form was it possible to register an objection to the scheme, only to say you were 'Very supportive', 'Supportive' or 'Neutral'.

While many people may object, putting the onus on every single one of them to write a letter and then pay the postage is a different ball-game from supplying them with a postage pre-paid tear-off form that only requires a box to be ticked.

I don't call that consultation.

Posted by Spawn (# 4867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I don't call that consultation.

I think the problem with the approach you outline is that a clearly sham consultation is worse than cavalierly ignoring public opinion. It is much better to be honest about your disregard than pretend you are going to listen. This faux consultation leads to anger and frustration.

God I'm grateful for the honesty from Candide and No Prophet from bureaucratic experience, but it just tends to confirm my suspicion that real consultation Is rare. This just leads to a breakdown of trust.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I'm a civil servant too and I can honestly say that consultation with our stakeholders*, formal and informal, have altered government policy and subsequent actions. OTOH, there's a built-in duty to consult on so many things nowadays, such that it is often notional.

I can't give more details but I can think of a ministerial initiative that was ditched because those it was intended to benefit simply didn't want it.

*A term I hate, but it reflects the broadness of the parties that are consulted.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The losers in a planning decision are always quick to complain that they weren't listened to.

Reading about local issues, those complaints are loudest when there was no adequate opportunity for feedback, through a questionnaire / public meeting. Appeals often turn around decisions, so they are always worth trying, if public opinion is strong enough.

Our current 'hot topics' are: reinstallation of a railway line, subject to agreement for a large number of houses to be built; building of a new supermarket; conversion of a quiet rural estate into a wedding venue business; a small wind farm. Judging by the endless debate and wrangling, there have been plenty of opportunities to express views, and also the
opportunity to appeal against decisions. But there will still be many not happy with the outcomes.

One alternative, particularly relevant to unwanted retail developments, is the boycott. My town was quite famous for a while because it got rid of an already established McDonalds, because people refused to eat there.

[ 04. June 2014, 20:30: Message edited by: Chorister ]

Posted by Spawn (# 4867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm a civil servant too and I can honestly say that consultation with our stakeholders*, formal and informal, have altered government policy and subsequent actions. OTOH, there's a built-in duty to consult on so many things nowadays, such that it is often notional.

Yes my concern is when it is purely notional. What is the difference for you when consultation has been a significant influence on decision making and when it has been pointless? These issues are important because the statutory need for consultation is vital but too often it just leaves the punters pissed off.

Posted by Spawn (# 4867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm a civil servant too and I can honestly say that consultation with our stakeholders*, formal and informal, have altered government policy and subsequent actions. OTOH, there's a built-in duty to consult on so many things nowadays, such that it is often notional.
Yes my concern is when it is purely notional. What is the difference for you when consultation has been a significant influence on decision making and when it has been pointless? These issues are important because the statutory need for consultation is vital but too often it just leaves the punters pissed off.

Sorry to double post. But a partial answer to that question is when I can see evidence that the replies have been collated honestly and debated fully. Too many consultations don't give any evidence that they have done the basics.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Early on I was a junior consultant. I worked for state government so I don't know for sure if the game is the same in business; you decide.

When I noticed some things that didn't seem like we were really being asked to do independent study, I quizzed my superiors, and they said yes the game is-- a consultant is usually hired to provide "third party" recommendation for what the bosses want to do. If the consultant's report comes to a different conclusion than what the bosses want to do, it is buried. The idea is that staff or the public will be more accepting of an idea to make some major change if it comes from a outside consultant.

Usually the question is worded neutrally - can this work unit be effectively merged with that one and free up thirty jobs? My supervisor's first question to boss - what answer are you looking for? Usually the response was a clear directive - give me reasons to support this. Sometimes it was "I plan to do this and want support but if you have strong reason to think it a bad idea I want to know." (Sometimes "put those opposing reasons in a side report.")

Rarely, I got to work on a project where they really did want to know what we thought and were open to any conclusion.

I was still young and idealistic, so I didn't stay long. Now I know much of business is a game, and it was interesting work. But I tend to disbelieve a "consultant's recommendation" means anything.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Consulting. [brick wall]

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