Thread: Spiritual attacks??? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :
 
What the hell are they all about?

Is this a new thing, I dont remember hearing it until about 8/9 years ago.

I've experienced a few people recently who blame "Spiritual attacks" for their withdrawn behaviour and general anti sociable mood.

Whatever happened to just feeling crap?

I do believe that some kind of spiritual attacks exist but as I feel about speaking in tongues , for every 10000 people that say they do it only 1 probably is with the rest just fooling themselves.

Is it the latest Christian fashion?
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Popular amongst some types of charismatics. If you believe that God makes you feel happy, I presume it must be demons that make you feel shit.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Talk of them has been around a lot longer than that, PDA!

I blame Neil Anderson for a lot of this. In a nutshell, his mistake is to believe that the Fall revoked mankind's creation mandate in favour of Satan.

The net result of this is that the only influences in play are divine and satanic, and human responsibility and agency is minimised.

At least bad, they can be evo-speak for incompetence. At worst, they can be a pretext for the worst kind of spiritual abuse.

All that said, I too believe that there can be particular concentrations of evil that marshall demonic forces in especially nefarious ways, but that these are not taking place where the "spiritual warfare" enthusiasts are looking, or to be combated in the way they favour.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Balanced wisdom all round.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
On the basis that The Fall counts for anything, it's worth checking for human greed, stupidity and vanity before citing demonism and spiritual attacks.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
As ever, there are some who grasp on to the 'spiritual attack' reason for every time something goes wrong or they feel bad. Ho hum.

However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.
 

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Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
It's the one bit of rhetoric my church (Ichthus) uses that makes me quite uncomfortable. It's less about feeling crap, but more when bad things happen. For example, it was noted the families of the leaders of some of our congregations had some quite ill health (we're talking very serious here, not colds & flu) and it was said in a public meeting that these were ways in which "the enemy" tried to undermine us as individuals and as a church.

While it is more common in charismatic churches, the way it is worded owes more to celtic mysticism, coupled with particular readings of Job. So it is often the counterside to those churches that speak of "thin places" or "holy spaces".

While I wouldn't outright deny the possibility of this, it seems that there is sometimes a rush to judgement.
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
So-called ‘spiritual attacks’ are par for the course among some of my neo-pentecostal coreligionists.

I am not opposed to the idea that there are both good and nefarious spiritual beings around and that the latter can do us harm. Nonetheless I think this kind of thing is far less common than it’s made out to be.

Quite a lot of the time I think it’s just an excuse for laziness. Far easier to blame demons for your problems than to take responsibility for doing something about it yourself.
 

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Do we really need anthropomorphised spirit beings when humans are readily available to do far worse things?

gives evil eye to co-worker and then knocks on wood, er, his head.
 

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Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :
 
Sounds like "spiritual warfare" which has been par for the course for African Christians for at least 30 years. People I know have books about how to deter the attacks and plenty of preachers make a good living teaching people how to defend themselves.

I'm guessing it's becoming more known elsewhere due to immigration.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
As ever, there are some who grasp on to the 'spiritual attack' reason for every time something goes wrong or they feel bad. Ho hum.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
'Twas ever thus. "The woman gave me the fruit and I ate it ... The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Yeah, try taking some flaming responsibility, guys.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This sort of nonsense has been around for a good while, I can remember it from back in the '80s.

It's allied with an overly inflated idea of one's own spiritual importance ... 'the enemy is having a go at me, look what a threat I must be to the Devil's kingdom ...'

I'm not applying that to Raptor Eye, by the way, but it's the direction that this kind of thinking leads - it puts ME, ME, ME at the epicentre of whatever happens to be going on.

It's a pretty insidiously egotistical form of spiritual deception ... and yes, I've just used similar language - and deliberately so.

In my experience most people who bang on about so-called 'spiritual attacks' are the vulnerable and the emotionally needy - people who crave attention for one reason or other, and I mean that charitably.

The real 'spiritual' business is generally going on somewhere else.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This sort of nonsense has been around for a good while, I can remember it from back in the '80s.

It's allied with an overly inflated idea of one's own spiritual importance ... 'the enemy is having a go at me, look what a threat I must be to the Devil's kingdom ...'

I'm not applying that to Raptor Eye, by the way, but it's the direction that this kind of thinking leads - it puts ME, ME, ME at the epicentre of whatever happens to be going on.

It's a pretty insidiously egotistical form of spiritual deception ... and yes, I've just used similar language - and deliberately so.

In my experience most people who bang on about so-called 'spiritual attacks' are the vulnerable and the emotionally needy - people who crave attention for one reason or other, and I mean that charitably.

The real 'spiritual' business is generally going on somewhere else.

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Originally posted by Jenn.:
Anxiety dreams are often labelled as spiritual attack, particularly when they become nightmares in my experience. Although when prayer for protection seems to fix the problem, is it so outlandish? I don't know, if I'm honest!

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It doesn't really confirm or deny - both the "it's going on in your head so what you think will work, will work" and the "spiritual attack" hypotheses are compatible with the observation. But IME, removing the source of the anxiety (or taking the pills) works as well
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
As ever, there are some who grasp on to the 'spiritual attack' reason for every time something goes wrong or they feel bad. Ho hum.

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'Twas ever thus. "The woman gave me the fruit and I ate it ... The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Yeah, try taking some flaming responsibility, guys.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Jenn.:
Anxiety dreams are often labelled as spiritual attack, particularly when they become nightmares in my experience. Although when prayer for protection seems to fix the problem, is it so outlandish? I don't know, if I'm honest!

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It doesn't really confirm or deny - both the "it's going on in your head so what you think will work, will work" and the "spiritual attack" hypotheses are compatible with the observation. But IME, removing the source of the anxiety (or taking the pills) works as well

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.

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I'm not so sure about this. I think part of it is having a worldview that's pre-programmed to assume these kind of things will happen or ascribe spiritual meaning to random stuff.

When we are stressed because of some upcoming important event, minor annoyances can become major ones and dealing with them can in turn lead to further oversights. There's no need to invent an entire demonology to explain that.

Apart from the somewhat separate issue of demonisation, Jesus gave no particular instructions to his disciples about spiritual attack but kept the focus firmly on much more positive things like spreading the good news and being salt and light.

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Good point. There was also the old motto for the unbalanced Christian going around at the time - "So faith, hope and love endure, but the greatest of these is tongues".
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Alex, in your scattergun approach you've mentioned (amongst other things) faith healing, pre-millenial dispensationalism, speaking in tongues, and deliverance - none of which are specifically to do with "spiritual attacks" as being discussed here.

What do you think about "spiritual attacks"? Do you think they're baloney, sometimes baloney, never baloney? Why do you think this?
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I am always rather hesitant to talk of spiritual opposition, yet it does seem to me that the difficulties churches often face are due to more than just the commonplace problems of ordinary humanity.

Of course I do realise that all churches will have their problems as they are composed of fallible human beings. After all, major “issues” came to the surface even in the New Testament congregations at Jerusalem or Corinth! Some of these were clearly had sociological or even racist roots, others were due to Christians who were behaving in an immature and selfish way.

But, beyond that, I do wonder if an element of “spiritual warfare” is also involved, by which I mean devilish activity that has been aroused when one tries to challenge the faith of people within the church or attempts new initiatives such as outreach into the local community. Some may feel that this is fanciful; but we must remember that the Bible speaks of malign spiritual forces as well as benevolent ones.

Indeed, we see Jesus himself arousing opposition not just because he was speaking about God in new and unconventional ways but because he was seeking to advance God’s Kingdom into places held by the “enemy” whom he called the “prince of this world”.

Is this superstitious? Well, I am sure many of us have read “The Screwtape Letters” by C.S. Lewis – a highly intelligent man! – which contains this famous passage: “There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them”.

I honestly believe that there is a sense in which a church seeking to faithfully proclaim the message of Jesus Christ will always stir up these “devils”; it is in fact my belief that they will try to discover a church’s “Achilles’ Heel” and exploit it to their advantage.

So, is "spiritual attack" always the explanation for the problems we face? Certainly not - but we must not discount it entirely or rationalise it out of our thinking.
 

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Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :
 

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Alex, in your scattergun approach you've mentioned (amongst other things) faith healing, pre-millenial dispensationalism, speaking in tongues, and deliverance - none of which are specifically to do with "spiritual attacks" as being discussed here.

What do you think about "spiritual attacks"? Do you think they're baloney, sometimes baloney, never baloney? Why do you think this?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I honestly believe that there is a sense in which a church seeking to faithfully proclaim the message of Jesus Christ will always stir up these “devils”; it is in fact my belief that they will try to discover a church’s “Achilles’ Heel” and exploit it to their advantage.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.

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I'm not so sure about this. I think part of it is having a worldview that's pre-programmed to assume these kind of things will happen or ascribe spiritual meaning to random stuff.

When we are stressed because of some upcoming important event, minor annoyances can become major ones and dealing with them can in turn lead to further oversights. There's no need to invent an entire demonology to explain that.

Apart from the somewhat separate issue of demonisation, Jesus gave no particular instructions to his disciples about spiritual attack but kept the focus firmly on much more positive things like spreading the good news and being salt and light.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I honestly believe that there is a sense in which a church seeking to faithfully proclaim the message of Jesus Christ will always stir up these “devils”; it is in fact my belief that they will try to discover a church’s “Achilles’ Heel” and exploit it to their advantage.

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Assuming this hypothesis to be true, can you suggest an effective way of tackling the problem?

Because I'm really not convinced that prancing round with shofars, proclaiming (in France at least) the overthrow of the Goddess Reason (again...), holding prayer meetings in cornfields at county boundaries, and so on, is the right solution.

I think such behaviour is at best a huge distraction and at worst a christian form of witchcraft.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can't speak for Gam, but to answer your points in turn:

1. I'm not sure. I do know that it only seems to happen to people who believe in it. Other people have colds, get bad news at work, feel down, but don't get spiritual attacks.

2. Yes, of course there is. I suppose I'd tend towards thinking that supporting them through what they're perceiving as a spiritual attack rather than shouting at questionable demons would be my tack. I mean, when I was four my Dad got me back to sleep by telling the skeletons under my bed to go away, but that's a bit patronising for adults.

3. Yes of course, but that's not the same thing as agreeing automatically with a person's assessment of the cause of their problem.

4. Yes, but I don't know what that has to do with the topic in hand.

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• Gluttony
• Avarice
• Lust
• Anger
• Sadness
• Despondency
• Pride
• Vainglory

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Originally posted by Green Mario:
Jesus described "the thief coming to kill steal and destroy".

Paul told the Ephesians to "Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes" and talked about the "flaming arrows of the evil one" a little later in the same letter.

1 Peter describes the devil as "prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour"

"No such thing as spiritual attack" I hear you say. I can't reconcile this with what Jesus, Peter and Paul said.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
For someone who can't speak for me, you made a pretty good job of saying what I'd have probably said, Karl.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can't speak for Gam, but to answer your points in turn:

1. I'm not sure. I do know that it only seems to happen to people who believe in it. Other people have colds, get bad news at work, feel down, but don't get spiritual attacks.

2. Yes, of course there is. I suppose I'd tend towards thinking that supporting them through what they're perceiving as a spiritual attack rather than shouting at questionable demons would be my tack. I mean, when I was four my Dad got me back to sleep by telling the skeletons under my bed to go away, but that's a bit patronising for adults.

3. Yes of course, but that's not the same thing as agreeing automatically with a person's assessment of the cause of their problem.

4. Yes, but I don't know what that has to do with the topic in hand.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Nevertheless, I still stand with what I wrote upthread: I believe that there is such a thing as spiritual attack although we must not bandy such terminology around lightly (nor split our infinitives so blatantly).

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Nevertheless, I still stand with what I wrote upthread: I believe that there is such a thing as spiritual attack although we must not bandy such terminology around lightly (nor split our infinitives so blatantly).

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
The territorial spirit theology is largely based on one verse in Daniel, after all.

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Originally posted by Squirrel:
Our pal Jack Chick has a particularly hilarious tract about what could be called a Spiritual Attack. A teenager shoots himself. His parents are into masonry. A wise neighbor convinces them that the kid did it because they brought "witchcraft" into their home. They burn Dad's Shriner fez and of course the kid recovers.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1074/1074_01.asp

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Originally posted by Caissa:
Job is a piece of myth.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
The territorial spirit theology is largely based on one verse in Daniel, after all.

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I think a more realistic place to start with regard to territorial spirits is 2 Cor 10:4-5 where Paul talks of demolishing strongholds, arguments and pretensions.

Inasmuch as I have a work of reference on this subject it is not some weighty doorstop tome from Wagner or the like but a 60-page booklet called Principalities and Powers by Tom Marshall, a name some of you may remember.

In it he mentions how it is common even in secular language to refer to the 'spirit' of an organisation and the way it endures even as people come and go. Sociologists (thinking here of Peter Berger quoted in Os Guiness' The Gravedigger File) talk in terms of the social reality of religion and its plausibility*.

In other words, there appears to be a broad acceptance of the idea of some sort of intangible corporate influence on mindsets and behaviours.

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Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

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Originally posted by Caissa:
Job is a piece of myth.

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Though not disputing the assertion, can you please define precisely what you mean by 'myth'? It's one of those tricky words that lots of people can take to mean different things. I'd just like to check that my understanding is in accordance with your intention (and for the benefit of everyone else here).

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
However, on the fringes of the march for Jesus, there was definitely the idea that there was an analogue to the 'Prince of Persia' that had to be defeated for each particular city in order that revival might come through.

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Yes, I know, and somewhere in my dusty archives is a defence of that theory as expounded in Taking our cities for God that I wrote in rebuttal to a (with hindsight) much saner pastor to whom I gave much grief. Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait*

=

*"If only youth knew; if the aged only could"
 

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Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :
 

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Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".
Lots of our problems are due to the influences of the world, the flesh, and the devil. It's not wise or very honest to only blame the last member of this unholy trinity.
Any "theology" which causes people to focus more on Satan than on Christ and produces gnostic or even, as Euythcus calls them, Christianised witchcraft type practices is probably best given a wide berth (despite the needle of truth in the haystack of error).

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Originally posted by Siegfried:

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Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

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Originally posted by Caissa:
Job is a piece of myth.

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Though not disputing the assertion, can you please define precisely what you mean by 'myth'? It's one of those tricky words that lots of people can take to mean different things. I'd just like to check that my understanding is in accordance with your intention (and for the benefit of everyone else here).

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Job is usually grouped with Proverbs and Ecclesiastes as a Wisdom book, rather than historical. So, as I understand it, it has value in helping us understand God, but is not intended to be historical.

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Originally posted by Yerevan:
The idea that Christians have evil spiritual forces to wrestle with predates the charismatic movement by quite some way. Someone upthread has already mentioned early monasticism, while Martin Luther talked pretty vividly about what would now be termed 'spiritual warfare'. I don't think some of the stupid teaching which has clustered around the subject necessarily invalidates it.

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I agree. I think you can go too far and start seeing demons under every bush, but it's possible to be balanced about it. I, er, wrote a book on the subject (see sig below). One of the things I say right off the bat to anyone who thinks they're being attacked is to go get a medical check-up. And it's true that "shit happens," but it's also true that shit happens disproportionately to certain people on the front lines of the Kingdom (e.g. missionaries, pastors and other leaders, lay people who are doing work that is on the edge in some way*, whether secular or not; also the first few converts in an otherwise non-Christian people group, village, or extended family.)

* on the edge--I'm thinking, for example, of anyone who is working in an area where there could be a breakthrough alleviating human misery (or heck, animal misery etc.). For example, water supply work in Africa, anti-cancer research, public policy makers regarding poverty, crime, whatever. Any Christians among them would do well to look over their shoulders once in a while. And pray!
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Missed the edit window (drat). Wanted to say that I'm a Lutheran. We're not exactly known for going off the deep end with fancy emotional experiences and nifty ways to get rid of demons (we prefer to bore them to death at synodical conventions). So if anybody's wondering, the book is NOT filled with freaky suggestions or bizarre practices. More practical stuff that has proven useful to us over thirty years of Christian life and missionary service. Sorry.

[ 19. June 2014, 23:51: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you can go too far and start seeing demons under every bush, but it's possible to be balanced about it. … One of the things I say right off the bat to anyone who thinks they're being attacked is to go get a medical check-up.

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are Illnesses of the Spirit and for these spiritual therapies are required.

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Originally posted by Late Paul:
What are spiritual illnesses and how does one distinguish them from mental ones? ...I ask not to dismiss the idea but because I can't distinguish them enough for it to be a useful second category.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...most of the people I've met who claim to have 'discernment' have anything but ...

Real spiritual discernment doesn't involve going around with a badge proclaiming, 'I've got spiritual discernment'.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Some of these people ought to get a bloody grip. The next ding-a-ling I hear talking about spiritual warfare and spiritual opposition or spiritual attack yadda yadda yadda I'll buy an airline ticket to Syria or to Iraq or some run-down area of Mexico ruled by drug-barons and send them there ...

Then they'll have something to complain about.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The problem is, South Coast Kevin, most of the people I've met who claim to have 'discernment' have anything but ...

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Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".

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"Bad luck" is often the Pagan-ese for "spiritual attack".
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
SKK:
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm not saying that charismatics in general don't know what they are talking about, simply that, as with much else, the rhetoric belies the reality - and it's not just charismatics who can be guilty of that.

I'm not saying that these things don't exist, nor am I saying that charismatics (and others) don't do good work in places like Afghanistan.

I'm simply suggesting that some of those who bang on about these things the most ought to spend some time in places like that in order to get a reality check. I'm not counting those who actually do spend time in such places.

Nor am I attempting to dismiss all matters charismatic ... a year or two back I heard a very convincing first-hand account of some charismatic activity in a favella in Brazil from someone who stood to gain nothing whatsoever from the account either in terms of personal kudos or anything else.

This is the Magazine of Christian Unrest so most of my postings about matters charismatic are going to be about the 'unrestful' aspects rather than the 'Oh, isn't it marvellous' aspects.

As for the kind of prayer that South Coast Kevin advocates - well, yes, if it floats your boat. I'd have less difficulty with South Coast Kevin's version that kind of prayer than some of the 'binding and loosing' type prayers I've heard in years gone by.

But then, these prayers aren't addressed to me ...



I do, however, have an issue with 'prayers' or commands addressed to the Devil or the powers of darkness - unless it's by a properly sanctioned/qualified specialist of some kind - such as those that the CofE and the RCs and other 'historic' churches have.

It always strikes me as ironic that some of those who have the biggest issue with the invocation of Mary or the Saints seem perfectly unabashed about engaging the Devil and his legions in conversation ...



Sure, I can see where they get it from with demons being commanded to leave etc in the Gospels and Acts ... but I'm not sure I want to go around engaging the forces of darkness in conversation.

I've been involved in evangelistic outreaches and other forms of church activity where 'ground has been claimed' or the forces of darkness have been addressed and rebuked before the activity commences - and I can't say I ever noticed any difference in terms of the success or otherwise of such ventures.

Hence, I'm happy to leave well alone. I'm not going to make putative 'If there is any evil influence hereabouts ...' type prayers because I largely feel these would be a complete waste of time.

Give me the lectionary, give me a litany. They were good enough for the disciples, they're good enough for me ...
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
More seriously, for my money the best book I've read on the subject is Nigel Wright's 'A Theology of the Darkside' (originally issued as 'The Fair Face of Evil')

See
http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Face-Evil-Putting-Darkness/dp/0551017864

And the updated issue:
http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Dark-Side-Putting-Power/dp/1608994198

It ought to be compulsory reading among charismatics and those who make a big deal out these things.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I can see where they get it from with demons being commanded to leave etc in the Gospels and Acts ...

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Give me the lectionary, give me a litany. They were good enough for the disciples, they're good enough for me ...

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Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by 'litany' and 'lectionary'. Could you explain what you mean by saying these were 'good enough for the disciples'? Thanks!
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

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Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".

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"Bad luck" is often the Pagan-ese for "spiritual attack".

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
More seriously, for my money the best book I've read on the subject is Nigel Wright's 'A Theology of the Darkside' (originally issued as 'The Fair Face of Evil')

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I absolutely agree. As a card-carrying Baptist charismatic and a highly serious NT theologian, Nigel is ideally placed to comment. He is a great fan of Barth and has, I'm sure, forgotten more theology than I've ever known.

They had to change the book's title as the cover of the earlier edition rather gave the impression that Nigel himself was the said "fair face"! I've not read the updated version.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
South Coast Kevin - I was teasing, hence the smilies and the pokey-out tongue ...

I'm not seriously suggesting that the disciples had copies of the Lectionary (whether in its RC, Anglican or Orthodox or whatever other incarnations and forms it may have) nor the Litany ...

This is going to sound very patronising, but you are awfully sweet sometimes, bless your little cotton socks.

On a more serious note, the thing about the NT practice of addressing evil powers and commanding them to go and so on ... well, yes, but there are caveats to that as the sons of Sceva found in Acts 19:14 ... they presumed to go around casting out demons in the name of the Christ that Paul was preaching and were told, 'Jesus we know and Paul we know, but who are you?'

Ok, one could argue that they were Jewish exorcists and therefore not fully with the programme and that as believers we have 'spiritual authority' and so on and so forth.

But I'm not sure I'd want to go round trying it on and playing fast and loose with these things.

I'm not suggesting you are, either ... but I know my limitations and would rather leave this sort of thing to the experts and specialists.

@Baptist Trainfan - yes, I've got a lot of time for Nigel Wright. Yes, he's big on Barth from what I can gather.

I'm not sure what's changed in the updated version of his book - other than that his photos no longer accompanied by the legend, 'The Fair Face of Evil ...' ...

I've not read the original so I can't compare the two. It made sense to me, though.

Back in the day, in the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing and so on, it was the writings of Wright, Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker that kept me going and set me on the trajectory I'm on now ... ie. away from full-on charismaticism but with an appreciation of its saner elements.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not seriously suggesting that the disciples had copies of the Lectionary (whether in its RC, Anglican or Orthodox or whatever other incarnations and forms it may have) nor the Litany ...

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, one could argue that [the sons of Sceva found in Acts 19:14] were Jewish exorcists and therefore not fully with the programme and that as believers we have 'spiritual authority' and so on and so forth.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But I'm not sure I'd want to go round trying it on and playing fast and loose with these things.

I'm not suggesting you are, either ... but I know my limitations and would rather leave this sort of thing to the experts and specialists.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
And I would argue exactly that; we have 'spiritual authority' to the extent that we are living in obedience to Christ, at least that's how I understand spiritual warfare.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing and so on, it was the writings of Wright, Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker that kept me going and set me on the trajectory I'm on now ... ie. away from full-on charismaticism but with an appreciation of its saner elements.

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Yes, I agree. There was also a relatively unknown book by the late Douglas McBain, who'd first been involved in the charismatic movement in Scotland as far back as the late 1950s, which emphasised sane and theologically-nuanced "charismania". I think that he and Tom Smail were local colleagues in those days, although McBain was a Baptist and Smail moved from the CofS to the CofE.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
The more serious point behind my tease was that I'm happy to stick with the meat and two veg of the lectionary and litanies and so on rather than to start exploring exotic territory - such as 'spiritual warfare' and so on.

These days I'd incline towards the 'classic' view of these issues as espoused in the more traditional Churches - and as has been highlighted upthread ie. it's about learning to control our own passions and weaknesses rather than some kind of conflict with demons and such ... although I do believe in dark powers and evil forces and so on.

I'd also concur with Chris Stiles's post. If it's dependent on the extent of my faith in Christ then I'm well and truly stuffed.

It's the object of my faith not the extent of it.

I'm not going to strut around claiming 'authority' over this that and the other. That way lies pride and self-deception. It becomes almost a Christian equivalent of witchcraft or some kind of mind-over-matter thing ... Christian Science or name-it-and-claim-it health/wealth type hoo-ey.

@Baptist Trainfan, yes McBain was a sensible guy too and he was indeed around in Scotland at the time Tom Smail was getting into the renewal thing. McBain's book 'Fire Over The Waters' charted the rise and influence of the charismatic movement from a Baptist perspective and contains some wise observations and caveats.

@Everyone - please don't get me wrong, I'm not eschewing everything charismatic, far from it. I'm simply sounding a note of caution in these things.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Oh, and by the way, I don't take you as anti-intellectual at all, South Coast Kevin - far from it.


 

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Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".

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"Bad luck" is often the Pagan-ese for "spiritual attack".

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Originally posted by Starbug:
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.

I

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Sure. Usually it comes packaged as some kind of impersonal "spiritual laws" to be followed which "guarantee" success of some kind. No, Paganism is alive and well in the church and it's called the prosperity gospel.

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"well" is a value judgement
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Starbug:
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing and so on, it was the writings of Wright, Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker that kept me going and set me on the trajectory I'm on now ... ie. away from full-on charismaticism but with an appreciation of its saner elements.

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Originally posted by Starbug:
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I do, however, have an issue with 'prayers' or commands addressed to the Devil or the powers of darkness ...

Sure, I can see where they get it from with demons being commanded to leave etc in the Gospels and Acts ... but I'm not sure I want to go around engaging the forces of darkness in conversation.

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Originally posted by Late Paul:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are Illnesses of the Spirit and for these spiritual therapies are required.

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What are spiritual illnesses and how does one distinguish them from mental ones? The examples you give, despondency and anger, to me are emotions not illnesses.

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Originally posted here by The Silent Acolyte:
The Desert Fathers teach us that the demons are constantly at war with us, insinuating their lies into our minds, enticing us to act against God and our better interests. The demons—or, better—the Thoughts by which the attacks are made are these:

• Gluttony
• Avarice
• Lust
• Anger
• Sadness
• Despondency
• Pride
• Vainglory

At the root of all of these is Self-love, which sets up the self as an idol in opposition to the one true God. The remedy of the sickness of these thoughts is the therapy of Humility and single-minded love of God.

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They may be symptoms of mental health issues like depression.

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I ask not to dismiss the idea but because I can't distinguish them enough for it to be a useful second category.

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As you say there's overlap and connection between say physical and mental problems but we can more easily distinguish them.

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So true. In the current centuries we are happy to measure and categorize physical phenomena and we seem to be quite good at it. I'm all in favor of this scientific enterprise, for, as I implied up-thread¹, it may be that much energy created by the charismaniacal focus on demons and spirits ought rather to be focused on providing jobs, improving nutrition, reducing stress, and making universal access to potable water, proper waste water treatment, and health care.

And as someone pointed out upthread, we suck when it comes to discerning the spirits.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Daronmedway - yes, I've been to a few Compline services and no, I don't have a problem with the idea that there is a spirit which makes war on the Church.

I've never said that I have an issue with that.

What I do have an issue with, as I'm sure you do too, is the way this is often tackled and spoken about in some - but by no means all - charismatic circles.

@Oscar the Grouch - yes, absolutely and yes I find even mildly charismatic stuff pretty thin and boring these days. That doesn't mean that I no longer believe in the 'charismatic dimension' - I do. It's simply that much of what passes for it is a cardboard cut-out pastiche of the real thing.

When I meet friends from my '80s/90s charismatic days I find them pretty much stuck in the same place that they were then with increasing levels of frustration and disillusionment yet some kind of in-built inability to see things in any other way ...
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Meanwhile, what The Silent Acolyte said ...


 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
I haven't the faintest idea where the world, the flesh and the spirit, including the Devil, begin and end.

And I have never experienced anything, or know of anything, that's anything (apart from the records of Jesus), no matter how frightening and disturbing and weird and nasty and ongoing in my own head, that isn't entirely explicable by my being an isolated mind-body. And I completely and utterly believe in transcendent-immanent economically Triune God.

So I'm discrete AND part of a perichoretic continuum of spirit.

I believe in the populated spirit world - angels and demons 'only', not the spirits of anyone or anything else - as Jesus unambiguously believed in them as a human being. Which isn't 110% proof.

Post-resurrection there is no confirmation?

I LIKE the idea of institutionalized evil. Meta-evil. Gestalt evil. It's explanatory, without requiring ANY literal demon.

YET, I come from decades of fundamentalist influence to say the least. There are immensely powerful narratives of Satan and his demons throughout the Bible. Just as there are of God the Killer ...

I suppose I just don't understand what difference Satan and his demons make.

And then there's Gadara ...

If Satan is more than one of the greatest memes of all time - and always all be until we know - how does his catalysis work? How does his being the prince of the powers of the air (weather, 'atmosphere', broadcasting, jamming, amplifying OUR fear, OUR hatred, OUR lust) work?

Would we be nicer without him?

And in our at least two hundred thousand years of being modern humans, when did the 'pride' (another powerful meme, but a true phenomenon?) kick in? As we came up out of the Savannah two million years ago, when did we fall?

That's not fatuous, not facetious. The evolutionary narrative is all but utterly overwhelming and even shakes the big three caveats, the final one being human consciousness.

I suspect that the story is as ineffable as it can be. We evolved, INCLUDING our consciousness AND there is a Devil.

How does this ALL work? WHAT is to be discerned?
 

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Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.

One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not? Am I allowed to feel like this or should I repent of it? Is God going to judge me for feeling angry about this?'

It's just too exhausting. Surely anger is just anger, whatever the cause? Maybe I was getting it wrong, but I got to the point where I just couldn't do the mental gymnastics any more.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

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Originally posted by Starbug:
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.

One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not? Am I allowed to feel like this or should I repent of it? Is God going to judge me for feeling angry about this?'

It's just too exhausting. Surely anger is just anger, whatever the cause? Maybe I was getting it wrong, but I got to the point where I just couldn't do the mental gymnastics any more.

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Originally posted by Starbug:
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.

One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not? Am I allowed to feel like this or should I repent of it? Is God going to judge me for feeling angry about this?'

It's just too exhausting. Surely anger is just anger, whatever the cause? Maybe I was getting it wrong, but I got to the point where I just couldn't do the mental gymnastics any more.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that's rather different to what Starbug is describing, Raptor Eye. I can see what you are getting at but in some charismatic churches there's an expected 'code' of behaviour that you feel obliged to live up to ... one of constant 'victory' and rejoicing, glory, glory, glory all the way ...

You can't live life at that kind of pitch. That's why there is so much 'burn-out' in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. The burn-out rate for Pentecostal pastors, for instance, is statistically a lot higher than it is for ministers and clergy from other churches.

Sure, I think it's right to aim for an equilibrium, to control the 'passions' as the old Fathers and Mothers would have it.

But a rather souped-up and frenetic form of the faith isn't necessarily the right way to go about achieving that.

'In quietness and confidence is your strength'.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that's rather different to what Starbug is describing, Raptor Eye. I can see what you are getting at but in some charismatic churches there's an expected 'code' of behaviour that you feel obliged to live up to ... one of constant 'victory' and rejoicing, glory, glory, glory all the way ...

You can't live life at that kind of pitch. That's why there is so much 'burn-out' in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. The burn-out rate for Pentecostal pastors, for instance, is statistically a lot higher than it is for ministers and clergy from other churches.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
These cannot be "magicked away". In this world we do have trouble. Burden bearing is in general a better Christian response. As is recognising that we are in trouble because of the burdens we are carrying, and asking for help.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

Prayer is primarily a selfish pursuit

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

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Originally posted by Starbug:
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.

One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not?

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There are some distinctions that help me with this issue.

First is considering anger as a feeling. Feelings are not right or wrong, they are just raw data. They happen to you, like the weather. The question then is what you're going to do with them. THAT is where the moral choice comes in to do right or wrong.

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Taken alone, Anger might well be considered a feeling or an emotion.

But, it is better to consider Anger a Thought—along with the other Thoughts: Gluttony, Greed, Lust, Sadness, Acedie, Pride, and Vainglory.

The rest of what Lamp Chopped says is right on point; the key is how we respond.

Anger may seem to suddenly appear as an emotion or feeling—the irascibility surges without our bidding it—but in fact, once it presents itself to our mind, more akin to a thought, we can choose to engage or endorse it—to think it—or we can choose to dismiss it.

Depending on the author there are more or fewer stages by which Anger, for example, may approach us. Anger presents itself (some call it 'provocation'), we entertain it, we consent to it (some say 'couple' with it), and finally we become captive of the Anger.

In this system, anxiety is a form of anger. The irascible part of our mind leaps up in thoughts of danger or foreboding imagining the future in response to the anxiety-producing image that that same imagination presents. An occasional anxiety is normal for humans. A vexing anxiety can arise from a habit of mind (a spiritual illness)that nutures it ("Take no thought for your life"¹) or there can be mental or physical causes, or a combination of the three.

If anxiety is an anticipatory anger, an anger against the imagination, resentment is an anger produced by a disordered use of the memory. Instead of mourning our past sins, we pour over and nourish offenses done against us and we allow the resentful anger to colonize our minds, preventing us from feeling deep compassion toward those who have done us wrong.

Anger in general, and these two forms of anger in particular, are spawned by a habit of anger in the mind. Provoked by an image or a memory, our mind leaps to anger because that is its habit. Without the habit of anger, provoked by that same image or memory, we might rather respond with trust in God or compassion for our fellow human.

If we continue to regard anger and the other thoughts as merely emotions or feelings, then may remain under the illusion that we are powerless against them. But if we regard them as an activity of our mind, then we gain some control over if, when, and how we think them.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'm really confused. What is the connection between anxiety and anger?

Because I basically live in permanent anxiety (it seems to be a brain chemical problem) but don't usually get angry easily. Though I know some people do.

It concerns me a bit, because you seem to be classing this kind of anger as a sin.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
I tried to be careful to qualify by saying that there could be mental or physical causes of anxiety beyond the spiritual. So, if the anxiety is rooted in brain chemistry, there oughtn't be a sense of personal sin. All the brokenness of human nature (spiritual, mental, and physical) is due to sin, but not all the sin that is attendant to our lives is sin over which we have control. If I experience sin through, say, a cancer that riddles my thorax as a result of drinking fouled water, I am not personally responsible for my cancer.

Disordered or sinful anger and sinful fear result when our rational nature fails to govern our irascible nature. We should be angry at the devil and injustice. We should not be angry with our fellow humans, but should feel compassion. When we feel anger at our fellow, our rational nature fails to govern and direct properly our anger. We should fear the loss of God. We should not fear the loss of anything but what brings us closer to God, When we fear death or the loss of material things or relationships, our rational nature doesn't properly govern our fear.

Where I have made a mistake is in trying to force fit fear into anger. Both fear and anger are due to the irrational governance of my irascible nature. In the Praktikos, Evagrius claims that every sort of thought is contained in the Eight Thoughts. Lamb Chopped, your question makes me see that this cannot be so. Thank you.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
You're welcome. The problem with anxiety, of course, is that even when someone tells you it's not your fault, you will by definition be worrying that in fact it is...

I do know one person very well for whom anxiety always and immediately transmutes into anger. Not sure why. Perhaps it's the heightened emotional arousal that flips him from one to the other so easily. It took me years to realize that the anger was almost always rooted in anxiety. Mine is a lot less complicated, and that connection seemed so alien.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
I have a very long-term and destructive internal anger problem, and much of what TSA says rings true for me. Embarrassingly enough, I find myself wanting to recommend a book "From the TV series The Monastery" by C.Jamison, Abbot of Worth 'Finding Happiness' which is a nice intro to the 8 thoughts. The section on wrath is helpful, but God knows I've work to do yet. The link with fear is very real for me - of loss of job (now dealt with, or should I say embraced), kids' respect, self respect, marriage, home and possessions, kids themselves. The chronic wearing-down which B62 talks about is very true in my small domestic life.

I've also found approaches which narrate this kind of thing in terms of spiritual warfare helpful - perhaps more so since this is very outside my tradition, and I am not enduring a potentially ham-fisted rendition on a Sunday morning. While I am making embarrassing admissions, I might recommend LC's e-book. Regular prayer, bible study and, for me, written free-form self-examination (3 notebook pages a day) are proving useful in spotting the voice of the accuser.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I do know one person very well for whom anxiety always and immediately transmutes into anger. Not sure why.

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Originally posted by Arminian:
Some of the dafter theology can be ruled out very quickly by its absence from the NT.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Not a spiritual battle at all - more ways to deal with natural anxiety.

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O Death, where is your sting?
O Hell, where is your victory?
Christ is risen! And you are over thrown.
Christ is risen! And demons are fallen.
Christ is risen! And the angels rejoice.
Christ is risen! And life reigns.
Christ is risen! And not one dead remains in the grave.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
You have to be joking.

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The walking with God in a garden is myth and allegory.

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And has nothing to do with human nature. Whatsoever.

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Anxiety has a inverted U shaped curve. Up to a moderate amount is helpful. It improves performance at nearly everything. Too little means no motivation. To much immobilizes.

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It is foundational to humanity.

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However, there is more disordered anxiety today.

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As for disease not being part of God's plan, the opposite appears to be true. Everything about biology says so.

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John Chrysostom was no scientist and no biologist.

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What are your sources for discerning the spiritual nature of humankind?

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Bible, reason and tradition in the first instance. Experience and observation in the second. With the most persuasive of the second being that my family has been slaughtered 3 times in the last hundred years, where no amount of praying spared the 2/5, 1/4 and 1/2 of the dead in 3 different wars, that praying for protection has had the specific opposite outcome of random violence in my family's life outside of war, and a series of other events that can have no other interpretations.

Companion on the journey. No rescue, any more than Jesus got rescued from his death by torture. God didn't rescue the historical martyrs either, nor the modern victims of genocide, hunger, epidemics. Because it does not work that way.

Lots of discussion, lots of pastoral counselling, lots of psychology. I just wish I had understood before my 6th decade of life.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
At least in this particular context, I agree with Silent Acolyte; I do think that, yes, this world is fallen, and yes, that anxiety (at least in the form in which we experience it) is something God did not intend for us, as well as disease, death, and the like. How the Fall affected/affects the development of life and humanity within time (and, indeed, I think something like neo-Platonism is involved, Martin! ) I don't fully--and perhaps in this world cannot ever fully--understand. It may be that the only way to grasp certain metaphysical realities is via myth and symbol.

I believe in evolution, absolutely. Including the deaths of animals before (time-wise) humanity appeared on the scene. And yet at the same time I can believe that the Fall--even if it was humanity's fall, not just that of the angels--was the cause of animal deaths before man showed up. For all I know, time itself may be one of the things that the Fall broke.
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 

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NO Prophet:I think evil and devils are other people misbehaving and in other cases failure to understand the facts of how nature works.

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So this is an experience driven pragmatism that dismisses supernatural intervention or interpretation in toto?

If so it is the prevalent view.

However, most of us have some particularities that cannot be simply naturally explained and of course the Bible abounds with supernatural encounters.

While we still die in wars and of cancer and on the roads and lose our loved ones, does that preclude a spiritual dimension breaking into time and influencing our outcomes?

If yes, are there any rules or clarifications that govern such experiences and does the Bible shed light on them?

I realise this can seem like a troll question so let me say that I do not think we can influence God by our confession or demands or by calling on his promises. We cannot do A in the natural and automatically get B in the spiritual. God isn't anyone's marionette.I am also neither a mystic or a spiritualist.

So, Are there any rules of engagement here?
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
I echo Jamat's question - what are the rules of engagement?

Today's reading was the demoniac and the pigs. He was oppressed, Jesus commanded, he was freed.

I am oppressed - by old, old wrath which continually fires up anew. I'm a Christian, and I can cast this as a spiritual attack. It comes on me as from outside, changes me to something strange and less sane ('he was beside himself with rage'). I shake and shout to myself as I re-live things, sometimes in my head, and sometimes audibly. I pray to be delivered.

Yes, I've had counselling and read CBT self-help books. Are we serious about this stuff continuing, even now? And if so - what are the rules of engagement? Does it take a priest? (Fr Pat / touring exponent of 'international haling ministry'). Does it take a pilgrimage? (Lourdes / New Wine). Does it take prayer and fasting? For how long (oh Lord)? Does it take removal of oneself to the desert, away from wife and kids, work and those pressures which seem to engender attack? Or does sanity and faithfulness mean just plodding on, day after day after day. Pray the prayer, hope to change, fall again. Repeat.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
That sounds like PTSD (which I have too). I'm sure you've seen a doctor, and I'd keep on. Mine is finally resolving slowly after lo, thirteen years? but not gone yet.

I think the first thing to do is discernment. With tons of prayer and consultation with others--strong, experienced Christians and also doctors/shrinks, find out how much of this is purely human and whether there might be any other component to it. Certainly you don't need to fear possession--there's no way the Holy Spirit will "share a room" with an evil spirit, so any Christian believer is safe on that account. But it is possible to have demonic harassment from outside, whether that takes the form of temptation to sin or just attempts at pushing your emotional buttons. In fact, that sounds like the normal Christian life situation to me, though you're in a slightly more dramatic phase!

Once you think you have a handle on what's going on, implement the counter strategies. for the human stuff, work on good diet and exercise (and sleep!), de-stressing your life as much as possible, take your meds (if any), building friendships and strong family relationships, and having fun (Luther recommended music and pubs, I believe). for the possibly demonic stuff, tons of prayer (no surprise there), regular communion and Bible reading, and a request to as many fellow Christians as you like that they pray for you in this matter. If you think there's truly something highly unusual, beyond the normal Christian experience going on, talk to your denomination's appointed exorcist or whatever they are called in your denom. But I doubt that will be necessary.

And then there's patience. Grrrrrrrrrr (we hates being patient, my preciousssss). But patience with the slowness of healing AND patience with yourself for being less than perfect for so long is worth gold.

(since you're reading my book ), I'm going to suggest a look at the bit on behavior modification for big, scary enemies . identify a very clear, specific, and easy-to-perform action that you KNOW anything evil would violently disapprove of (say, mowing your elderly neighbor's grass, or setting the timer for fifteen minutes and sitting down then and there to pray and yell at God in private). At the first sign of an attack, grit your teeth and go do that thing. I find that after a few go rounds of this attack/response cycle, spiritual enemy X pisses off to wherever he came from, doubtless to plan a different attack, but hey...
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
These are important questions. FWIW my view is that God does spiritually interact with the world and its people constantly, but God is not controllable by anyone or anything. We may reject, disbelieve, treat with contempt or embrace the concept. Regardless of that, God remains and becomes accessible to us through religion, so that we may draw near to God, in which case God draws near to us.

The continuing relationship may reach a point in which we are able to listen to and follow God's guidance, with other people's help to aid with discernment (preferably those who have had their own calling discerned, especially within an organised religion). The vehicle by which God communicates with us is love.

Once following the guidance of God, we find out more about ourselves as we are slowly transformed into the image of Christ, at the same time retaining our own complete identity. As it is exposed to the purity of God shining through us, imperfections such as anger, past hurts or wrongdoings, etc - anything which attacks us spiritually - will be healed and overcome.

Occasionally, the healing process may be accelerated, in which case it becomes apparent to those around that something extraordinarily good has taken place and God's good name may be broadcast again as a result. The good seed needs to be continually sown, so that people know who to turn to for help and learn that they can trust in God - not to stop bad things from happening, but to help us to bring something positive out from them, in the end.

Patience, trust, hope, and a determination to persevere in our quest to live God's way of love are what are needed from our side. All God has to do is to be God.

Cross-posted with Lamb Chopped

[ 02. July 2014, 12:13: Message edited by: Raptor Eye ]
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Aye, it's PTSD. Whatever else it is, which we'll never know in this life. I know it well ...
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
That is an awesome post LC! I too think we are so complex that we can't often go straight to a central issue without help. One rule of engagement for me has been admitting an issue consciously rather than denying it. However at the risk of seeming trite, I have found as another, that for me, I can never never allow myself to question God's integrity,love or existence. This is hard when black times can stretch into years. CBT has helped me sometimes. The story I tell myself is, no matter how awful I feel, God hasn't changed and he loves me. One last thing which I hope isn't a technique, is to do everything I can to be outward looking..major issue for black dog sufferers but engaging outwards seems to help control panic attacks.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Yesterday's reading (I always want to say 'the Gabardine demoniac) got me into this thread, and today we have

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Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe

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Some of the dafter theology can be ruled out very quickly by its absence from the NT.

Being under a 'curse'. There is nothing in the NT about breaking curses. Neil Anderson teaches this rubbish... The only curses in the Bible are given by God in the OT and can't be broken... pity Neil Anderson didn't read his Bible very closely when he formulated this junk (and Derek Prince seems to have been one of the first to come out with this stuff too).

Binding spirits. Jesus didn't do it nor did Paul. Jesus didn't seem to judge them 'before the appointed time' but just cast them out. Jesus also warned about them coming back, so presumably he didn't send them off somewhere bound up beyond return.

Territorial spirits. Again nothing about Jesus or Paul getting involved with prayer walks, binding spirits. etc.

Teaching fear of occult influenced people. Again not in the NT. The emphasis was on using God's power in proclaiming the gospel. If Paul or Jesus ran into them, they cast the demon out, or told the demon to shut up. They didn't avoid demon possessed people like the plague, and they weren't afraid of them either.


How spiritual attack really works I suspect is via other humans who are demonically influenced or possessed. However in the NT, Paul and others are able to stop these attacks. What isn't stopped is persecution, which seems to be allowed on many occasions. There may be limits God has set on direct supernatural influence from demons, but humans have free will. As such if they want to attack you for your faith, they may be able to (although there are examples in the NT of God getting Peter out of jail after prayer from other Christians).

I would like to single out Neil Anderson's 'Freedom in Christ' as one of the daftest and most dangerous courses I've ever seen in church. Suggestions that you might need to pray for protection against the devil influencing your dreams every night being just one example. I can see this theology causing a great deal of fear and even mental breakdown. Bad, bad stuff...

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© Ship of Fools 2016


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