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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Archepiscopal blessing
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
The Pope received a blessing from the ABC the other day. It has caused many trad RCs to recoil in horror, and more ecumenically minded Christians of all persuasions to rejoice.
Does this mean change is afoot? Some say this could be a back door way to recognize Anglican orders. Some say it's simply a word of blessing between friends.
Does this have any significance?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Receiving a blessing from a fellow Christian shouldn't be a big deal.
The fact that it is reveals all too much about the state of true ecumenism and how far we really haven't come.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Acts of Christian charity (in this case, a blessing) should be always performed, I agree. That it generated a picture and, apparently, discussion in the media is to be discouraged.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
I'm critical of parts of Anglicanism but I thought this was a beautiful gesture
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Given that blessings were received by Paul VI, J2P2, and B16, I do not see why there is any excitement.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Looking at the discussion on the link in the OP, it seems to me that two groups of people have objected:
a) extreme Prots, who think both RCs and Anglicans are apostate
b) extreme RCs, who think this will send the wrong message to "the faithful"
Everyone else was rejoicing - think I'll join the crowd! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
It's meaningless. He did the same with Evangelicals/Pentacostals when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires. It's just an example of his usual recklessness (though admittedly his behaviour is being tempered somewhat in recent weeks as the nature of his office appears to be at last dawning on him and he is at least clarifying himself to a greater degree - I think he has gotten a nasty shock at the way that his words and gestures have been twisted and misinterpreted by the media and modernists).
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
CL, why is it reckless (or meaningless) for one Christian leader to accept a blessing from another Christian leader? I am genuinely puzzled by your post. Would it be acceptable, say, if the Pope was on holiday somewhere, went to his local RC Church, and received a blessing from the parish priest who had only been ordained the week before? Is the Pope's status so great that he always has to be the one doing the blessing?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I am a loyal follower of the pope and I applaud his gesture in asking the Archbishop of Canterbury to ask God's blessing on the Holy Father.
There is no need to argue about who can give or wish a blessing upon another person.We should ALL be ready to wish God's blessing upon ALL our fellow Christians and indeed upon all men and women of good will.
Arguments about who is and who is not a bishop,belong in the past, The pope is a Catholic bishop,centre of unity in the Catholic church. The archbishop of Canterbury is an Anglican bishop,at the moment not in full communion with the Catholic church that.We should leave it at that and rejoice that the two of them enjoy one another's company.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
I must echo the chorus; I can see no cause for a ruckus over this.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Why the fuss . 2 Christian leaders bless the otherv sounds like a great idea.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A very generous post Forthview, in marked contrast to some on the link given (especially the 1st). Thank you for it.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Would it be acceptable, say, if the Pope was on holiday somewhere, went to his local RC Church, and received a blessing from the parish priest who had only been ordained the week before? Is the Pope's status so great that he always has to be the one doing the blessing?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Robert Armin:
Would it be acceptable, say, if the Pope was on holiday somewhere, went to his local RC Church, and received a blessing from the parish priest who had only been ordained the week before?
Of course it would. The Pope's 'status' vis a vis another priest is clearly not at issue here.
Most here have characterized this as one Christian leader blessing another. But at the risk of veering into the DH of Roman Catholic views of Anglican orders, the Pope was receiving an episcopal blessing from someone who (in RCC eyes) is clearly not a bishop, and probably is not a priest. And the fact that the Pope received such a blessing might give the wrong idea to the faithful about the RCC's position on Anglican orders. CL's position seems to be that the Pope doing this was rather ill-advised, which is not an unreasonable position in light of the RCC's apparent position on Anglican orders.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
But the RC position on Anglicans is that we are Christians, although "separated brethren". Personally I can't see how one Christian asking God to bless another is problematic - although I suppose it might be, depending on the words the ABC used.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
There is no need to bring in the question of who is a 'real 'bishop or a 'real'priest. The pope is not an Anglican bishop.The Archbishop of Canterbury is not a Roman Catholic bishop.
They are both Christians who worship the same God and Lord and are both members of the 'one ,holy,catholic and apostolic church' albeit one is an 'out of town' member without full voting rights.
The pope is right to honour the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury in the world of Christendom.In doing so he is in no way abrogating his position as Supreme Pastor of the Catholic church,nor is he necessarily saying that
Anglican clergy are really Catholic clergy in disguise.The question of the validity of Anglican orders within the Roman Catholic Church is a separate discussion.It need not be a point of issue everytime a Catholic and an Anglican meet.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I wonder if the pope will ask a blessing from the presiding bishop of the ELCA. She is more than willing to do it, I imagine.
I think he has also received blessings from the Orthodox Metropolitans as well.
This pope has the opportunity to bring other church bodies into a more cooperative union.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
Posted by Robert Armin:
Would it be acceptable, say, if the Pope was on holiday somewhere, went to his local RC Church, and received a blessing from the parish priest who had only been ordained the week before?
Of course it would. The Pope's 'status' vis a vis another priest is clearly not at issue here.
Most here have characterized this as one Christian leader blessing another. But at the risk of veering into the DH of Roman Catholic views of Anglican orders, the Pope was receiving an episcopal blessing from someone who (in RCC eyes) is clearly not a bishop, and probably is not a priest. And the fact that the Pope received such a blessing might give the wrong idea to the faithful about the RCC's position on Anglican orders. CL's position seems to be that the Pope doing this was rather ill-advised, which is not an unreasonable position in light of the RCC's apparent position on Anglican orders.
As I noted above, there is a half-century of precedents for popes receiving blessings from archbishops of Canterbury, so I do not see a Shock Shock element here. RCC response to Anglican orders is another subject, but note that Paul VI and his successors have made available the church of Santa Maria Maggiore for the sacramental use of archbishops of Canterbury-- such an action, as well as Pope Frank's gesture, would suggest a greater subtlety on the matter than a bullet point would provide.
In my bureaucratic days, we would use "ill-advised" as a term to refer to a decision taken in full awareness of its implications, when we really didn't like it-- Frank is nobody's patsy. Popes are intelligent elderly men with carefully-considered long-term agendas, and like to leave doors ajar for their successors to open.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
There are two kinds of "blessing" in Catholic terms that the Pope could have been accepting. There is a layperson's prayer that a person be blessed by God, which I think is ok even if done with laying on of hands or making the sign of the cross over someone. Then there is the ability of a validly ordained priest to be a conduit for the blessing of God Himself. A bishops' blessing is seen as even more special, and a Pope's blessing even more so. Of course, Popes can and should ask for anyone, Christian or not, Roman Catholic or not, Priest or Bishop, to bless him. The only "bad" thing the pope might do is misleading people to believe that he thinks that an Anglican priest or bishop can offer this second kind of blessing. Francis has said many words to the effect that he thinks that the risk of theological confusion is more often than not much smaller than the risk of being deficient in charity.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
There are two kinds of "blessing" in Catholic terms that the Pope could have been accepting. There is a layperson's prayer that a person be blessed by God, which I think is ok even if done with laying on of hands or making the sign of the cross over someone. Then there is the ability of a validly ordained priest to be a conduit for the blessing of God Himself. A bishops' blessing is seen as even more special, and a Pope's blessing even more so. Of course, Popes can and should ask for anyone, Christian or not, Roman Catholic or not, Priest or Bishop, to bless him. The only "bad" thing the pope might do is misleading people to believe that he thinks that an Anglican priest or bishop can offer this second kind of blessing. Francis has said many words to the effect that he thinks that the risk of theological confusion is more often than not much smaller than the risk of being deficient in charity.
What would Jesus do? Or rather, who would he bless and/or allow to bless him?
[ 24. June 2014, 04:25: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
There are two kinds of "blessing" in Catholic terms that the Pope could have been accepting. There is a layperson's prayer that a person be blessed by God, which I think is ok even if done with laying on of hands or making the sign of the cross over someone. Then there is the ability of a validly ordained priest to be a conduit for the blessing of God Himself. A bishops' blessing is seen as even more special, and a Pope's blessing even more so. Of course, Popes can and should ask for anyone, Christian or not, Roman Catholic or not, Priest or Bishop, to bless him. The only "bad" thing the pope might do is misleading people to believe that he thinks that an Anglican priest or bishop can offer this second kind of blessing. Francis has said many words to the effect that he thinks that the risk of theological confusion is more often than not much smaller than the risk of being deficient in charity.
What would Jesus do? Or rather, who would he bless and/or allow to bless him?
Ah the standard response of those with no worthwhile argument to make.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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