Thread: Guide and Scout Parade Services Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027441
Posted by Rosalind (# 317) on :
 
Locally, church parades have become much less well attended by the scouts and guides. In fact, hardly any come at all, and the members are almost outnumbered by the leaders. Which makes me wonder, are these services worth having at all? And if it is worth persevering, what makes for a good church parade service?
 
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 
Unless there is already a good tradition for a parade service, I doubt that it can work these days. On the whole, they are a thing of the past.

But if you want to try something, my best guess would be to give the scouts & guides as much to do as possible in the service. Bible reading, taking the collection, intercessions (where possible) and ability to choose at least some of the music. And keep the service short'n'sweet.

Of course, the chances are that if you do this, the regular congregation will grumble like billyo. You just have to suck that one up. No matter what you do, you can't win.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I have no idea what a "church parade" day is. Is it sort of like "scout Sunday" with a processional or something by the local scouts? Very odd. Never seen that done in the US.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
A lot of Guides and Scouts (also Rainbows, Brownies, Beavers and Cubs) packs are church affiliated and one of the things they are expected to do is attend church regularly - often the Family Service of the Word once a month. And that attendance often includes processing in and out with banners, presentation of banners or flags at the beginning of the service, blessing of new flags and all the rest.

Church parade, certainly for Guides, counts towards their year badges as one of the outside the pack activities they can get involved in. (I am an Assistant Guide Leader, have fallen out of church.)

But - fractured family life means it's very difficult to organise the girls (boys) to church on a Sunday morning. If they aren't at dad's they are visiting grandparents or doing something as a family. And when the last two services have been dire the chances of getting anyone to the next disappears to vanishing point. Particularly when one of the regular services is the civic Remembrance Service. And for us this year, Mothering Sunday was so bad the complaints were legion. I nearly wrote them a Mystery Worship report as I would normally so they could see how bad it was. We can only get our groups to consider Harvest, Remembrance, Christingle and Mothering Sunday now. We were up to every half term a few years back.

Looking at it from a church point of view, this is one of the few times you get children and families through the doors who are not normally going to attend church. Surely this is a brilliant opportunity for outreach? When I was still playing nice with the local church I was the PCC contact for the Uniformed Groups and visited the groups before the services, explaining what to expect, why it was happening and basically advertising the services. I also worked with the people leading the service to ensure that the uniformed groups were involved.

The other thing we did was involve the Brownies in flower arranging for Harvest and Easter - all the little arrangements around the church. That pulled in a lot of children to show the families.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
In Canada, church parades happen around the Founders' birthday.

When I was a youth, I remember whole groups showing up at one of these. Attendance dipped when the service was held at Salvation Army or Pentecostal tabernacles (or in the Orange Lodge Ontario of my youth, the Catholic Church)

I have been a Scouter for nearly 30 years, and still think Scouting is the best thing for what I call generalised children (Children who want to experience a little bit of everything)

But you know what? In thirty years, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of church parades which had more than the colour party and some leaders.

Church parades are somewhat lower in the pecking order than prune juice and bran muffins at camps.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I think the church and the scout movement have both changed so much in the last decade or so. The church is struggling more and more especially with young people (they are, so often, more an anomaly than the norm). The scout movement is now less formal (and the formal aspect was one thing that the parades provided).

Is there a point? Probably not, especially as attendances are so down. Maybe the churches should find other ways of being involved and connected.
 
Posted by gog (# 15615) on :
 
Moving hats round quickly to find the Scout "Faith and Beliefs Advisor" one, and propping it on top of the minister one.

One thing that I have seen work is for the minister/person leading the service to go visit the scout group a couple of weeks before the service, explain what's going to happen, and also talking with the leaders about fitting the service in with the Scout program (ie looking at the Local History Badge and the Faith and Beliefs section of the program in the time before Remembrance Sunday, or other such things). This is mainly that the service become part of the what the young people are doing and not an additional thing that they know nothing about - so that they want to come along.
 
Posted by seadog (# 2931) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
Moving hats round quickly to find the Scout "Faith and Beliefs Advisor" one, and propping it on top of the minister one.

One thing that I have seen work is for the minister/person leading the service to go visit the scout group a couple of weeks before the service, explain what's going to happen, and also talking with the leaders about fitting the service in with the Scout program (ie looking at the Local History Badge and the Faith and Beliefs section of the program in the time before Remembrance Sunday, or other such things). This is mainly that the service become part of the what the young people are doing and not an additional thing that they know nothing about - so that they want to come along.
This makes great sense. Young people are rarely enthusiastic about things that don't have any meaning for them (like most adults, I suppose).
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
A lot of Guides and Scouts (also Rainbows, Brownies, Beavers and Cubs) packs are church affiliated and one of the things they are expected to do is attend church regularly - often the Family Service of the Word once a month. And that attendance often includes processing in and out with banners, presentation of banners or flags at the beginning of the service, blessing of new flags and all the rest.
Same in the US as far as troops—Boy Scout troops, at least—being affiliated with churches. But once a month?! Here it's typically once a year, in February.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Way back when I was a Girl Scout (Juliette Gordon Low was just a lass), my troop held meetings at the local Presbyterian church, but we never had any sort of "affiliation" with them and were never expected to attend services there. We just used the space. When I moved to another town, the Girl Scouts met at a fire house and later at a school. Around here, the only churches that seem to "sponsor" Scout troops are the Mormons, and I think that may just be Boy Scouts (which is one of the reasons for the recent controversy in BSA policies, recently discussed in Dead Horses).
 
Posted by LondonKnight (# 18012) on :
 
We are fortunate in our rural church to have strong links with our local Scouting and Guide groups, and each annual parade service is packed with Scouts and Guides and family members. It helps that they hold their meetings in our church hall, and sometimes even use our church for their activities. And during the service, they take part in the readings, and the prayers they penned themselves, so they feel included in whatever is happening. I think the key is encouraging them to be part of the church and its activities, not only on one day of the year but across the calendar. When we hold a fete, they organise a few stalls and this year took part in running the event.

As I mentioned, we are fortunate to already have the links established and the scout leaders (who are not church members themselves) are interested in getting involved in their community, which includes the church.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I think - from many years' experience of "doing" Parade services - is that CuriosityKilled and LondonKnight are bang on with their comments. If the leaders are not enthusiastic about them, then the young people will not be, either.

But there is more. We are in a town centre situation, with very poor Sunday (and evening) bus services. All our kids have to be driven in by parents - so we need to have the parents on board too. This would not be the case if we were on an estate where all the Scouts etc. regularly walk to the church. And then, of course, there are all the many other family and/or sporting activities which take place on Sundays.

There are real issues with the services. "Traditional" church culture can be entirely alien to the young folk; "souping things up" for parade services doesn't really work and alienates regular church members. Increasingly we are struggling to get meaningful numbers at these services (2 per term) although we work as hard as we can to make them relevant, interesting and in getting folk involved.

[ 07. July 2014, 16:51: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Around here, the only churches that seem to "sponsor" Scout troops are the Mormons, and I think that may just be Boy Scouts (which is one of the reasons for the recent controversy in BSA policies, recently discussed in Dead Horses).
AFAIK, a boy scout troop must have a sponsoring organization (which is often a church, but can be a community centre, school, or some other body). Girl Scout Troops, although they are often organized around schools, don't have the same concept.

ETA: Our church has a boy scout troop. We see some of the boys all the time, because they and their families attend our church anyway. Once a year, when they show up in uniform, a couple of the families will bring an extra boy, and we have an extra leader or two appear out of the woodwork.

[ 07. July 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
 
Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :
 
In my first Cub/ Scout group we used to have "Scout's Owns". Instead of expecting the group to go to church we held DIY services in the HQ or invited local religious leaders to come in. Today it is better for churches to go to rather than expect others to come to a totally alien environment I would have thought.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Our little backstreet Anglo-Catholic UPA parish has, affiliated to it, a flourishing Scouts/Cubs/Beavers group, with several determined and very hard-working and committed leaders.

Our previous priest-in-charge totally destroyed any meaningful contact with the group, and it was only through the hard work of a now-retired (and since gone-to-Rome!) churchwarden, a few years ago, that diplomatic relations were restored. We now have Parade Services on Mothering Sunday, Sea Sunday (usually the 2nd Sunday in July), and Harvest Festival (end of September). We also see some of the group at our Patronal Festival in October, and (in considerable numbers) at an 'end-of-term' Christingle Service a week or so before Christmas - a service started three years ago at their request!

Attendance is very much dependent on the availability of leaders, and the co-operation of parents, so numbers vary - but these services generally double (or more) our ASA of 40.

Our usual practice is to slightly abridge the 'Liturgy of the Word' (with Beavers or Cubs reading the First Lesson, and leading the Prayers), but to have a full 'Liturgy of the Eucharist'. This keeps the service within a reasonable time frame (50 minutes at most), without any real dumbing-down.

We are to observe Sea Sunday next weekend, with Yours Truly preaching........I've promised I'll keep it short.......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :
 
It's a little surprising to me that Scouting is, or is still, a Christian-only organization - I'd assumed somewhere along the line that it was religion-agnostic (like the Freemasons [Biased] ), and any notion of compulsory church parades (there was an annual parade when I was involved in the junior section) was merely a nod to the establishment, like the uniforms and marching and stuff.

I am seriously surprised if it is still segregated on religious lines - there seems to be more than enough of that in the education system, at least in the UK, and it does seem to be something which is not particularly emphasized by the leadership of the Scouting movement.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I don't know to what extent Church Parades are compulsory in the UK - I doubt if they are - but, historically, the 1st Wossname (St. Faithful-in-the-Backstreets) Scouts etc. have been associated with our parish for many years.

This association - as I have said, revived in recent years - is a valuable one, and gives us pastoral contact with numerous local families who might otherwise never darken the doors of the church.

I have a desire for/vision of a more frequent attendance at church e.g. a monthly Family/Parade Mass, but what I've mentioned above seems to be the most realistic option at present.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
In France and in Italy Scouts are thought of as a mainly Catholic institution.In the holiday periods you will often see organised groups at Mass.

On April 23rd I happened to be in Rome and went to visit the church of St George,San Giorgio in Velabro (Cardinal Newman's titular church)

I saw many Scouts there,mainly older people,gathering for a commemoration of the life and work of Baden Powell.
 
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on :
 
The Baden-Powell pseudo paramilitary bodies and the Church both face similar struggles, being seen as outdated with an appeal almost entirely to white, middle-class folk in leafy areas.

Parades ceased at our large C of E Church about five years ago - by then the numbers had whittled down to about three kids turning up.

Military metaphors and authoritarian structures are totally alien to young people, who just won't accept them in the way they did in, say, the 1970s. Even back then, the mood was of an organisation with its heyday some time in the past.

That said, I know leaders of two thriving Brownie packs, although I doubt that many of their number will progress to Guides when the time comes. Another friend leads/led a Scout troop some years ago, and last time we spoke expected it to survive for only about another five years.
 
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on :
 
PS Forthview's comment about the age profile at the international event invites parallels to be drawn with the Youth Hostels Association.
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I've never seen these parades held more often than once a year. Surely more than this is doomed to failure.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Around here, the only churches that seem to "sponsor" Scout troops are the Mormons, and I think that may just be Boy Scouts (which is one of the reasons for the recent controversy in BSA policies, recently discussed in Dead Horses).
AFAIK, a boy scout troop must have a sponsoring organization (which is often a church, but can be a community centre, school, or some other body). Girl Scout Troops, although they are often organized around schools, don't have the same concept.
That's correct. In BSA-speak, these are called "chartered organizations." Almost 3/4 of chartered organizations are "faith-based organizations"—churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. Of the faith-based organizations, the LDS church sponsors the most units, followed by United Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Episcopalians and the UCC, then other groups. Scouting is the official church auxiliary group for LDS boys.
 
Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
That's correct. In BSA-speak, these are called "chartered organizations." Almost 3/4 of chartered organizations are "faith-based organizations"—churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. Of the faith-based organizations, the LDS church sponsors the most units, followed by United Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Episcopalians and the UCC, then other groups. Scouting is the official church auxiliary group for LDS boys.
And because it is the official auxiliary group for LDS boys the LDS supported the BSA in lifting the ban on gay youth (I suspect if any kicking out was to be done, the LDS wanted to do it and only after trying to reform the poor boy rather than have the national come in and kick him out). One big difference in the US between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts is in the former the chartering organization owns the troop, in the latter the local council owns the troop.

I can't imagine the girl scout troop I was in attending a church service as a troop (beyond the one sad time when we attended a funeral of one of the scouts). We were moderately diverse religiously mostly a mix of mainline protestant, Catholic, nothing, a few unitarians, and possibly a few non-observant Jews (no one asked about religion).

Scouts owns were very much girl driven and were not an overtly religious ceremony (for US Girl Scouts anyway) but a way of exploring in depth something like the promise or the law or a value or history (I remember one that was about the struggle for women to get the vote). The US Boy Scouts btw have dropped "Scouts own" and replaced it with "interfaith service" (judging by searching their web site).

I do know the local university chapel regularly gets part of a troop attending one Sunday in late January when the troop is overnighting in the local scout house and doing first aid training. I've also seen Girl Scouts staking it out to sell cookies after services in February. For the former, I wonder how many of the parents realize exactly how liberal the church is.
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Our church has scout/guide/brownies/cubs parades every month and from what I can see, they're pretty well attended (I'm an 8 am attender but ring for the 10.30 service, so see the scouts/guides etc gathering for their parade as I run out just before the service starts).

No parading around the streets, as I did once or twice as a child.

M.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
I do know the local university chapel regularly gets part of a troop attending one Sunday in late January when the troop is overnighting in the local scout house and doing first aid training. I've also seen Girl Scouts staking it out to sell cookies after services in February. For the former, I wonder how many of the parents realize exactly how liberal the church is.
[tangent] Some other Girl Scouts in San Francisco found a much more lucrative spot to sell their cookies.[/tangent]
 
Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :
 
Entrepreneurship though at least for the local troops prime spots are rotated around (e.g., the spots at the local farmers market or at the train station at rush hour). SF girls also do bridging in a big way big way at least for juniors to cadettes (bridging is a ceremony for US girl scouts to move from one level to the next, usually done on a small portable bridge prop).
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Scouts owns were very much girl driven and were not an overtly religious ceremony (for US Girl Scouts anyway) but a way of exploring in depth something like the promise or the law or a value or history (I remember one that was about the struggle for women to get the vote). The US Boy Scouts btw have dropped "Scouts own" and replaced it with "interfaith service" (judging by searching their web site).
As far as the BSA goes, I wonder if use of the term "Scouts Own" was regional. I come from a Scouting family and I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout. I'm an Eagle and in Order of the Arrow, and as an adult I've served as a unit leader and in district leadership. And while I'd occasionally run across the term in printed material (but never until I was an adult Scouter), I don't think I've ever, in over 40 years, heard anyone actually use it.
 
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
As I understood it when I was a Venture/Scout Leader a Scout's Own was a Sunday morning service in camp where the highest ranking Scouter would usually lead the service. A Church Parade was for one Sunday a month at the home church. Even ten years ago when I was still a leader the home church was United Reform but the vast majority of the scouts were Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan or Atheist. I think there were only a couple of Christian Scouts and they were lapsed Catholics. Church Parade was still observed in intent with the flags set up in the church but no scouts ever attended.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
... which, on the face of it, seems a bit pointless. (Or did the Guides still attend?)
 
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
No guides where I was, they had their own building elsewhere.
 
Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
As far as the BSA goes, I wonder if use of the term "Scouts Own" was regional. I come from a Scouting family and I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout. I'm an Eagle and in Order of the Arrow, and as an adult I've served as a unit leader and in district leadership. And while I'd occasionally run across the term in printed material (but never until I was an adult Scouter), I don't think I've ever, in over 40 years, heard anyone actually use it.
For the Boy Scouts of America it might be, but, I think Scouts/Guides Own trace back to Baden-Powell and are quite international. It may be emphasized more on the girls' side of the movement (along with Thinking day).
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
As far as the BSA goes, I wonder if use of the term "Scouts Own" was regional. I come from a Scouting family and I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout. I'm an Eagle and in Order of the Arrow, and as an adult I've served as a unit leader and in district leadership. And while I'd occasionally run across the term in printed material (but never until I was an adult Scouter), I don't think I've ever, in over 40 years, heard anyone actually use it.
For the Boy Scouts of America it might be, but, I think Scouts/Guides Own trace back to Baden-Powell and are quite international. It may be emphasized more on the girls' side of the movement (along with Thinking day).
My experience with Girl Scouts of America goes back some 40 years-- never heard of scout parades, scouts own, or thinking day.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Thinking Day is an international Girl Guiding day celebrated annually on 22nd February. We organised a special service for the Guide Centenary a couple of years back.

I haven't taken part in a Scouts' Own, but the scout campsites around here all have chapels or prayer areas as part of the site. Last camp the camp fire ended with prayers (on the Saturday night).

Parade Sundays are standard in the UK for both Guides and Scouts.

[ 09. July 2014, 17:20: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
 
Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
It's a little surprising to me that Scouting is, or is still, a Christian-only organization - I'd assumed somewhere along the line that it was religion-agnostic (like the Freemasons [Biased] ), and any notion of compulsory church parades (there was an annual parade when I was involved in the junior section) was merely a nod to the establishment, like the uniforms and marching and stuff.

No. Scouts are a 'faith based' organisation in the Prince Charles sense of the word not a Christian movement. It assumes that members have some kind of faith but does not require adherence to any particular religion. Scouts can be Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist etc. etc. One of our leaders put down the Flying Spaghetti Monster as his god. [Biased]
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
Back when I was a Brownie (and briefly a Guide) in the late 80s, Church Parade was monthly in termtime and happened in the 11:00 which shifted from Mattins to 'Service of the Word'*. I dutifully turned up at them (rather than being at Sunday School which happened during that service)** but found them quite boring. I much preferred the Eucharist I went to first. Our church (rather oddly) had Brownies and Guides for the Girls and Boys Brigade for the boys and parade was for us all. THe local Scouts (who met I think at the Scout hut) were only seen on Remembrance Day on the Green and then went back to a church (one of 7) .

At my current church we got the Brownies at a couple of services a year until the pack folded last year (rather suddenly).

Carys

*Though that terminology didn't exist then
**I think those of us who were at the service rather than at Sunday School got marked present
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Thinking Day is an international Girl Guiding day celebrated annually on 22nd February. We organised a special service for the Guide Centenary a couple of years back.
My daughter's girl scout troop does some kind of activity for thinking day each year. It usually involves exchanging postcards with girl scout troops in other countries, finding out about their sister scouts in other countries and so on.

Most of her troop are church-goers, but they've never been to a church service together (I don't think any of the girls attend the same churches.)
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I'm beginning to think that the good turn-out of Scouts, Cubs and Beavers (with leaders and parents) that we get 4 or 5 times a year is rather exceptional (praise be to God, all the same)!

Madam Sacristan at our place is also involved with a Girl Guide troop (is that the right term?) attached to the local Salvation Army Citadel, and they, too, seem to have very well-attended Parade Services several times a year.

Mind you, I know TSA have the same issues with over-worked leaders and indifferent parents - even though the young people themselves may be keen as mustard!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
My childhood church had a mismatch with Boys Brigade in its various age ranges (who were definitely to be rooted in church and juniors needed to have a card signed to say they were at sunday school each week)and Brownies and Guides for the girls - we didn't have to attend SS.

Parade was all family services (monthly 3rd sunday) in term time, and colours marched and presented - up one aisle to hand over in first hymn and collection in the last ready to march out the other aisle when hymn and dismissal prayer over with congregation still standing and nothing to do but notice if the guide flagbearer remembered to duck the colours before hitting the balcony. (Guides only as the BB were 1. heavily drilled in weekly meetings, and 2. kept the flag bearing to the same people; whilst Brownie pennants were safely clear of risk).

Once or twice a year it would be 'full parade' which started away from the church and involved being in ranks led by the BB band to outside the church.

This was the 80's and it declined during those years. I think there is some token attempt a few times a year but no more than that.

I would say celebrate the links that remain, and see what can be most meaningful. I don't see lots of former guides and brigaders scattered around our churches, so I don't think it was that successful a bridge into the church that it was billed as.
 


© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0