quote:

---

Who reckons they'll be finished by the end of 'Thesis Support 4'?

Personally I'm aiming for by the end of version 5.0. We'll see.

---

As it happens I ended up quitting that PhD, doing a Masters and now I'm in year 2 of another PhD. So maybe I'm still on target, although I really didn't think it would work out quite like this!
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Jane, I noticed that when I was closing the old one. That's actually why I named this one version 5.0.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
My irony is that having gained my Ph.D during Version 4 I'm now going back to being an undergrad again - which means I may need gracious permission to enter these hallowed realms occasionally?

I am currently writing what I hope will be a publishable book, only tangentially related to my doctorate. Related indeed only insofar as I am writing in the style (of biblical hermeneutics) that I would have loved to use in the dissertaion but couldn't.

Go well, you brave souls! Kia kaha, they say in Māori: go with strenth. (If my new degree goes according to plan I may be able to say that in a Yolŋu laguage one day).

[ 31. December 2011, 21:59: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

---

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
I took the bait, Zappa. Thought I knew many of the terms associated with such studies. It sounds very interesting from either of two sites I found. Distance ed. from Banner Lady's environs or local?
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Local ... CDU
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
(Gupapuyŋu, I presume)
 

---

Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Jane, I noticed that when I was closing the old one. That's actually why I named this one version 5.0.

---

Do you mean.... I've been cited?!


[ 01. January 2012, 16:52: Message edited by: Hazey*Jane ]
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Aiming to have a complete 1st draft by 1st Sept.
Ack... now this in public realm, I may have to try and be accountable to the timeline!

For all in writing up year, those in mid-thesis doldrums, and those just starting out: courage mon braves!
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
A friend, J, has been forced to suspend her PhD because of serious health issues; and I am perfectly healthy, have no excuses and just faffing about doing far too little. I was talking to J about her PhD last night and felt ashamed of my lack of relish of my own. I need a sharp kick up the arse, to appreciate the sheer joy of PhD-dom.

And a for J, who undergoes surgery next week.
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
A plea: on the last version of the thread someone (I think Jengie) posted a link to leechblock, the Firefox add-on to block access to websites at certain times of day. I have tried to install it (indeed I thought I had) but now can't figure out how to find it to actually instruct it which sites to block. Which is why I'm still here ( ). Can anyone help? I downloaded Zotero and that has a little icon thing in the bottom right hand corner of my screen, but I can't see how to get to leechblock at all.

One of my new year's post-PhD resolutions is to effectively tackle my procrastination. I probably could have done with it peri-PhD, but there we are.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
With Leechblock the instruction page by its creator should help. For those using Chrome, then Chrome Nanny.

I also find Pomodoro Technique useful. I find that concentrating for 25 mins then wasting five far more effective than trying to work non-stop.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I use leechblock to limit my 'playtime' to five minutes each hour. I'll have a look for it one here and let you know.



I'm just re-writing the last part of my research proposal - MA in SpLD (Specific Learning Difficulties). I hope to have everything done and dusted by this time next year. We'll see!

I find this subject fascinating partly because I have two SpLDs of my very own. Dyslexia and ADHD - thus the need for leechblock and any other coping strategies which are going!
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Thanks Jengie, I've got it now.

Actually I installed it, came back here to say thanks only to discover I had blocked the ship till 12.30 so couldn't I might have a PhD, but I really haven't got the sense I was born with!
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Of course there are ways round this as we have four laptops in the house.



But, at least the laptop in my office where I do my work has my playtimes 'controlled' by leechblock.
 

---

Posted by Catrine (# 9811) on :
 
Ooh shiny new thread! I have some news, my first supervised PhD student graduated in November (ok, so I only supervised the last two years of her PhD), but I am so incredibly proud of her.

In other news, I'm off to download leechblock... such a clever idea!
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
OK another supervision done. If you want to read more its largely on Thesis blog and I am now trying to sort myself out well enough so I can go to bed and sleep.

What scares me most is how much I rely on my supervisor, oh not for doing the work, but for picking up the weaknesses and getting me to address them. Also supervisions give me a timetable to work to. I like the structure and the standards my doctorate are setting but am worrying about how I will keep them up when my supervisor isn't there.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Well done Catrine, that's a very impressive milestone!

Jengie, I know what you mean about supervisors. I find that it is much easier to see someone else's wood for trees than it is your own (which is why I think I'm reasonably good at marking/peer reviewing etc but needed someone else to cast their eye over my thesis and point things out). Having said that, at the very end I had a lot of comments from my first supervisor about structure of my empirical chapters, but try as I might to put them into practice it just didn't/wouldn't work, so I put her comments to one side and worked it out myself, differently. I think that was one of the "yes I really am ready to submit now" moments.

In the next couple of months I am going to be writing more, hopefully for publishing in journals, and I am thinking it might be worth my while cultivating a handful of people (probably early(ish) career academics) who'd be willing to read over my drafts before I submit it for peer ravaging I mean review. I'm sure my supervisor would be happy enough to look things over, but she has earned her dues and I need to move on from relying on her.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Another supervision dome but my supervisor seems to think I am still ahead of where I should be (some one must have forgot to send him the memo that said Part time doctorates are only six years long not eight).

Finding it interesting in that I seem at last to be sorting out what the core is to the thesis. Now all I have to do is got back over my recent writing and start to get it to fit together around the ideas.

Oh more on progress here

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Working on an MA and my supervisor is on sabbatical until after Easter. I've just spent the day on research and tomoorw I must get back to the literature review.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Holey Moley - I've just become an undergrad again and some of the reading we have to do is incomprehensible - post-colonial social theory from Indigenous perspectives .... phwaw.
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
[Note to self] Argh...quit with the bright ideas already. Just write the bloody thing [/end of note]
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jante:
Working on an MA and my supervisor is on sabbatical until after Easter. I've just spent the day on research and tomoorw I must get back to the literature review.

---

Me too.

I love the research - but the Literature review is a slog slog slog!



 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 

quote:

---

I love the research - but the Literature review is a slog slog slog!

---

I agree - and I'm still trying to actually get motivated to do it!! However college holidays are coming up and then I plan to really go at it.

 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Having just struggled with a very small literature review, you have my sympathies. My thesis has three small ones for three data chapters, the introductory will have several in and one chapter where specific area of the literature is the data (no that is not a literature review as the analytic method is reader response).

However Pat Thomson of Patter suggests getting out the coloured crayons.

I have a number of blogs I follow simply to act as advisers while I write. Patter is one. Thesis Whisperer is another.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
A bit of light relief - this has been doing the rounds on twitter recently and made me smile:

Why God never received a PhD
 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
Literature review stress here too - just not motivating in the same way as the actual research will be...
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Yesterday I was so excited and enthralled by what I was researching that I couldn't tear myself away, but sat up into the wee small hours, reading Victorian newspapers online, till my eyes lost focus and my neck cricked. Alas, none of it is entirely relevant to the PhD, but another of the distractions my supervisor has been warning me about. Apparently I have to abandon the "Ooh! Shiny!" approach to research.

Still, I can share the joy of it with you guys.

Also, I now have the plot for a third novel! If I ever get round to writing:
Novel One (Set in Victorian Aberdeen, this is a gripping tale of burning ambition as Isabella works her way up from croft house to the dizzying heights of the teaching profession!)
Novel Two (Set in Victorian Aberdeen this is a heart wrenching tale of love and loss, as schoolteacher Bessie falls passionately in love with one of her colleagues!)
I now have the outline of Novel Three (Set in Victorian Aberdeen, schoolteacher Christian reads Das Kapital and knows she has found her life's meaning! Meanwhile, her elder brother does not share her love of the common people, or her dreams of world peace, but seeks wordly advancement and serious money by...um...becoming a clergyman!")
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Well another supervision down, supervisor did what I wanted him to, pick out the wood from the trees. I need now to show the forrest that is there and not just each twig on a series of oak trees.

As to literature review, speak quietly but I am afraid I can not help. I use literature, lots of it, but I am afraid my thesis won't have a chapter called literature review*. My sources are too ill contained to fit neatly into that. I even made myself do one in my third year, and it just persuaded me that this was not going to work. I will however admit that the art seems to be what to leave out.

Jengie

*Alternatively I will have several small literature reviews.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
For those struugling with literature reviews then Literature Review HQ maybe a useful resource. It sounds as if its written by someone who has been there and knows the pain.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
NEQ

quote:

---

Apparently I have to abandon the "Ooh! Shiny!" approach to research.

---

It's so unfair, isn't NEQ? My supervisor is of the same opinion. Spoilsports, they are.

Thoughts for my novel coming along nicely - but only the one so far! Set in 16th c Scotland, in the Canongate. The gripping tale of Marjorie the murderess. Attacked by a man intent on taking her honour, Marjorie fights him off and inadvertently stabs him to death.... In the throes of attempting to avert execution, will Marjorie find peace and love amidst the turmoil of her life?
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Apparently I have to abandon the "Ooh! Shiny!" approach to research.

---

Or else compile an exhaustive literature search on taxonomies of shine used by other researchers in the field from which you abstract a set of words and phrases used to describe shininess in this community of discourse, then suggest a quantification of shininess, propose a hypothesis relating shininess to squee-factor, and test it by a meta-analysis of the literature, which you can publish as a short paper broadly confirming your hypothesis and ending with a plea for more research.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Okay, I know I'm not doing a thesis any more, but after labouring through some reading for my new degree course I'm really beginning to wonder if I want another degree!
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Zappa

I have not done a degree because I wanted a degree for a couple of decades. I normally do degrees because I want the knowledge a degree brings.

That said I was at a supervision yesterday, it went well thank you. My assessment of where I am at and my supervisors are pretty much the same. One of the questions was whether I was on target. I said I thought at different times everything from way behind to slightly ahead but at present pretty much where I should be. When we discussed my imagined timetable he agreed that we were pretty spot on. I suspect the angst on his part was caused by another student of his who plans to submit on Friday at the latest. This is cutting it very fine as the last date she can in Monday. So anyone here feeling like praying that M is able to concentrate and get on with the writing please do.

More info on the blog in my sig.

Jengie

[ 25. April 2012, 11:25: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Hi you clever people,

Is there yet an accepted convention for Harvard referencing scholarly books by Kindle 'location' without page numbers?
.
.
.
.
I thought not. I'll have to make a library visit to a paper copy - tiresome when you're a distance learner.


 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Hi you clever people,

Is there yet an accepted convention for Harvard referencing scholarly books by Kindle 'location' without page numbers?

---

quote:

---

E-books often lack page numbers (though PDF versions may have them). If page numbers are not available on ebook readers, use the chapters instead for indicating the location of a quoted section:

---

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Thanks Jengie,

It appears that my source hasn't yet been paginated by Amazon, so I'll see how the markers react to the e-book example. I think that the author will actually be the first marker, so he may be sufficiently flattered.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
You do need to state it is a Kindle edition.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Zappa

I have not done a degree because I wanted a degree for a couple of decades. I normally do degrees because I want the knowledge a degree brings.

---

Knowledges in this case, as the presupposition is that western-based knowledge systems are not applicable to aboriginal culture(s). Which, yes, is why I'm doing it.

But the degree is called a B.I.L.L. ... I refuse, if I complete it, ever to put that after my name!

Incidentally my new institutions likes kindle references to be by chapter and paragraph number!
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Zappa

When they named the school my department is in there was an argument about whether it should be:

The School of Philosopy, Religion and Theology or the department of philosophies, Religions and Theologies. You can check out who won. There is also an interesting debate going on in ethnography of Religion about whether Religion is defined by a Western Masculine centricity of thought even within the West. There is rather an interesting paper on Strategic and Tacticle religion which picks up some of these themes. Even my thesis tends to be more tactile in her terms, now is that because I am a woman or because I am an ethnographer or both.

My supervision was yesterday and I am beginning to see things fitting into place. Anyway I am getting close to the real half way mark and will see my self as making real progress. Thesis writing is hard work but it is also exciting, why does nobody tell you it is exciting? More again on my thesis blog.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
MA dissertation completed and handed in
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jante:
MA dissertation completed and handed in

---

Well done!!




*jealous jealous*
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Well done.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Well done.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Good for you, Jante!
 

---

Posted by Caty M. (# 11996) on :
 
*cracks knuckles determinedly and makes a proper start on Masters dissertation*

ETA:

[ 04. June 2012, 16:25: Message edited by: Caty M. ]
 

---

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Heard today that my Dissertation has passed with Merit
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Well done, Jante!

I have wasted the last hour looking at bizarre websites including one which claims that the Rev Andrew Murray is the fourth greatest African of all times (David Livingstone came first, Nelson Mandela eighth, the "courageous and principled" Ian Smith came 10th and Desmond Tutu 23rd.) Andrew Murray's cousins were Scottish schoolmistresses, which is how I stumbled on these websites, but I knew that nothing productive to my PhD was ever going to come out of clicking on websites with "rapture" in their names.

I need focus. And a slap from a wet fish.
 

---

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
NEQ - that website made me feel physically nauseous.
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I was just incredulous; one minute I was genuinely and legitimately googling for a bit of family background on the Misses Murray, spinster schoolmistresses, then I spent an hour googling through bizarre and appalling websites thinking WTF? WTAF? and now I'm annoyed with myself for being so easily side-tracked.
 

---

Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
I agree on the Andrew Murray site. A friend of mine is the great-great-great grand-daughter of Murray and a feministy architect and academic. In context of Dutch Reformed Church history, Andrew Murray had a great influence on its development all around South Africa in the 19th century. Much of what the writer Olive Schreiner encountered in the Karoo and Eastern Cape was as much Murray as Dutch Protestant thinking.

But I'm sure you know most of this, just commenting on a wet and rainy afternoon here in the Western Cape...
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I didn't know anything at all about Rev. Andrew Murray; I hadn't even heard of him till a few days ago. There was an intermarried family in C19th Aberdeen; Chalmers (newspaper proprietors), Brown (Free Church, very involved in the Disruption) and Dyce (Academics, but also the painter William Dyce.) The Browns married into the Stewarts (industry / local government) and the Murrays (church). Andrew Murray was the nephew of Rev John Murray, and lived with him in Aberdeen while being educated, so he was on the fringe of this.

Being a feministy historian, I'm interested in the women in this family, some of whom were very interesting indeed. William Dyce used some of Prime Minister Gladstone's rescued prostitutes as models, which led to his niece, Meredith Brown, devoting her life to preventing girls being trapped into prostitution.

However, the route into googling Andrew Murray was his three first cousins, Catherine, Margaret and Isabella Murray, who ran a girls' school.
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Sorry, hit post by accident. Did Andrew Murray have interesting female descendents, Mary LA? They seem to have been a family which valued female education.
 

---

Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
I'd have to ask my friend more about this -- the well-known Andrew Murray was the son of a Scot who became a Dutch Reformed minister and the family home is in the Great Karoo, at Graaff-Reinet.

The influence of Andrew Murray was to introduce a deep pietism into the the Dutch Reformed Church (Nederduitse Reformeerde Kerk), bringing about a large revival throughout South Africa (sometimes still called the Great Awakening) and in the 19th century many Scottish women came out as Sunday School teachers and governesses. But more than that I don't know.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Thanks, Mary LA!

My PhD is on female school teachers in C19th Scotland; they were often members of interesting families, because families which valued education for their daughters were families which espoused values generally; whether religious, political or social.

If you scratch a bit, women who were the "first woman to..." in the C20th often had female forebears who had made the most of their education - women's emancipation and rights have, since the 1840s, (IMO) been more of a continuum, with set-backs, and less of a stop / start model of suffrage / second wave etc.

Rev. Andrew Murray's first cousin, Margaret, born in 1832, taught modern languages in Aberdeen from 1862, having "resided on the continent for seven years." This is the sort of thing that really intrigues me - why did she go abroad? where? with whom? was she earning a living there? what was her life like??

This is my main PhD problem - I get all fascinated by snippets and wander further and further away from my central PhD topic.

Does this happen to other PhD students - or am I just woefully lacking in intellectual self-discipline?
 

---

Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
Tangents and digressions are the pleasures and temptations of any research!

The 'Continent' was regarded as a place for acquiring culture and polish -- she might have boarded with a respectable French or German family or studied music (piano lessons). I was reading about Henry James' family who went back and forth around Europe looking at art galleries and museums, sending their sons to schools and academies to learn the sciences and literature.


The climate was warmer in Europe so youngsters suspected of being prone to consumption were sent to Italy and the south of France, to European spas and lodges in the Swiss Alps.

She might also have had a position as governess with a respectable wealthy family. Daughters who found themselves in unsuitable attachments were also sent to the Continent to boarding schools and academies for young ladies. (Remember Katherine Mansfield was sent to a German pension when she fell pregnant and had a convenient early miscarriage or abortion.)
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Tomorrow I am having a day off from the day job and spending time with people from my old PhD department - they are co-hosting a couple of sessions of a Doctoral Training School and they asked me to participate in their roundtable session (they have primed a number of us to talk around a particular subject, to spark discussion). Despite having got my PhD over a year ago, and having a proper job where I get to call myself 'Dr', I am still nervous that the students will sound more intelligent than me, and that I will be found out. Anyone who says 'imposter syndrome' isn't real really has no idea! (and if any of the Scotland-based PhDers are at the event in Edinburgh, do come and say hello!)
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Here I am again.



I haven't given up, but I'm this [] close!
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
How much do you have written?
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
How much do you have written?

---

The degree (MA in SpLD, dyslexia) is in three parts. Two parts practical - both passed. The third is a Thesis/dissertation. 20,000 words.

I have read a lot, made many notes and completed the research (which went really well)

It's the Lit review that's completely stumping me. I keep starting, scrapping and starting again.

:very frustrated:
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Boogie

There are endless blogs out there that give you the how to as well as I can.

There is however one blog (and its the one I can't find) that tells you what you are doing in a literature review.

Its thesis, was that the point of the literature review in a thesis was to say Why you did this study. So it is not to specify all the literature on the topic and what was said, nor is it to quote people who support you. It is to do three things:

• Give an general view on where thinking is on the broader topic
• Give the reason why your particular aspect of the topic is of interest
• Give some idea why you took your particular approach to dealing with the topic

In other words you are making an academic case for why you did your research.

That was so useful because I am not writing a literature review chapter for my thesis. There are literature reviews in there but there is not a chapter. There are reasons for that, my reason for doing my thesis is there was very little out there. I think it I had known how little I would have panicked more than I did. Therefore when I use literature I am borrowing from other areas of research. However this told me what I needed to put in my opening chapter if I did not have a literature review.

Jengie

[ 17. August 2012, 13:33: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Do you need to write the literature review first Boogie? Sometimes just writing anything will help you to write into the thesis. I remember the literature review in my thesis not being the most enjoyable or edifying part of my thesis but it did help to place my thesis in context.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Thanks Jengie Jon - I will search the Blogosphere!

Good idea Caissa. I may just start the data analysis just to cheer myself up!



I have dyslexia myself - so any writing is a struggle. I'd love to be able to do this verbally! (And yes, I have a dragon, but he's no help really)

I won't give up - Iwon'tIwon'tIwon'tIwon'tIwon'tIwon'tIwon'tIwon'tIwon't!!
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Of course you write the data chapters before the literature review or in parallel otherwise you don't know what you are writing the literature review for.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Actually to point out two bits of software that might help, one is Scrivener which is often recommended {see a recent blog) although there are still problems with linking that to referencing software as far as I know (for those who use latex there are techniques but I am afraid I can't be bothered to make the effort) and the other is Ultra Recall. Both of these allow you to write in sections and move things easily between different documents.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
(bump)

Well, the PhD has ground to a halt, because I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the enormity of the whole writing-up thing, and I really need a kick up the backside. My supervisors would be only too happy to administer said kick, but I'm avoiding them.

Instead, I've got three papers to deliver to three conferences lined up (ignoring supervisor advice to forget papers and WRITE UP THE PhD!) Writing the papers feels like PhD-y stuff and it'll look good on my CV, right? Ok, not as good as an actual completed PhD, but hey.

And I've won an award! Not a big one, but one I'm very pleased about. However, I don't want my supervisors to find out about it, because I worked on it when I was supposed to be writing up the PhD, and in direct contravention of their instruction to FOCUS ON THE PhD. (It's a short book, which I started 5 years ago, and I was encouraged by a friend to finish it and submit it for the award.)

So sometime next year I'll get a silver salver for a year, plus 6 free copies of my wee book, and the right to buy more copies at an author rate. However, I'll have to spend a bit more time before it goes to print making some revisions, which will of course be more time spent not writing up.

How's everyone else doing??
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
North East Quine

Have you tried setting yourself an hour every day purely for thesis? A little often make a big difference. Set yourself a weekly word limit to achieve (mine is just 2000 and I rarely don't make it, crossing 3000 is more common).

News here is as mixed as ever, there are two ways of looking at how far I am through my thesis and they tell different stories.

1)Word count says I have less that 5,000 to finish

2)Chapter says I am 2/3 through

My own assessment is that I will have everything in draft by Christmas and between Christmas and Easter I should get a final version. That will be a challenge but I think I need the pressure now to finish and to cut the waffle.

More practically I am sending the descriptive chapters in draft to my congregations this weekend. One still needs tidying up. I am also trying to register for next year. The situation is now closer to resolved in that someone is looking at it, but I am not sure how much progress they are making.

This week I am not writing but I have done 10,000 in the last three weeks and over the weekend have a major edit with the chapters going out and also a supervision to prepare for. Progress updates as usual on my thesis blog.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
the point of the literature review in a thesis was to say Why you did this study. So it is not to specify all the literature on the topic and what was said, nor is it to quote people who support you. It is to do three things:

• Give an general view on where thinking is on the broader topic
• Give the reason why your particular aspect of the topic is of interest
• Give some idea why you took your particular approach to dealing with the topic

In other words you are making an academic case for why you did your research.

---

As a thesis examiner these days, these are things I look for in every thesis, and indeed in every research paper that I referee. For some topics , this comes in a chapter (or section) headed "literature review" - indeed some universities seem to insist that there is such a chapter. But sometimes this context just comes in a short introduction, with much of the literature just referred to as it comes up in the body of the text, as Jengie is doing. (This is common when the main point of the reference is to compare your results to those of a similar study done elsewhere, for example,or when the "literature" is the main subject of your thesis (as in History).

So I agree with Jengie, if you are daunted by a whole library full of stuff that just might be relevant, you may be better off, you may be better off doing some of your own analysis first or in parallel, so that you can be selective about what it is you have to "read". That way you go forward relatively painlessly and with fewer distractions. In short "just do it".

[ 29. August 2012, 23:56: Message edited by: Tukai ]
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
Congratulations, NEQ, on your prize and publication. That is a great achievement, and a real stand-out for a CV if you are planning on making a career in academia. Any chance of you putting a link to your book on your sig line?

Other than that, I see thatyou have found yourself caught in the PhD/CV bind. A supervisor will ALWAYS tell you to focus on the PhD first, even to the exclusion of all else. They are accountable to the University and their first responsibility is to get you through the whole process.

However, if you are aiming for an academic career, you simply cannot leave the papers and publications until the PhD is done. Awards for postdocs are assessed largely on a points system, and a lack of publications at that stage can mean that you crash out of the race even if everything else in your application is exemplary. Likewise, academic institutions these days are obliged to maintain a high publishing output in order to justify their funding. To have any chance of one of them employing you, you need to be able to demonstrate that you can contribute to that output. Postdoc funding and academic employment are both incredibly competitive, and the funding or job will always go to the one with the proven publishing track record.

So no easy answer, I'm afraid, but just a reassurance that you have not wasted your time! It is a juggling act all the way. Good luck, and congratulations again.
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Yes NEQ, congratulations on the book award. Go you!

However, Jengie is also very wise (as usual) and I think the suggestion of some small amount of dedicated time regularly (rather than an entire month of thinking of nothing else which is an entirely too scary prospect) is a good one. Also write every day, just a little bit! At first it might be rubbish, but there will always be nuggets you can copy and paste later

I do know what it's like to feel almost paralysed with fear and putting off the writing/PhD stuff and letting myself be distracted by anything else. It's horrible, but at the end of the day the only thing that snaps you out of it is snapping out of it (if that makes sense and doesn't sound unsympathetic). Maybe if you start off with writing a list of things to do (not a long scary one, just a few manageable things to be getting on with) that might help?

What I'm finding now I'm a postdoc (research-only) is that being paid properly and also having Dr before my name so I'm supposed to know what I'm doing (ha!) means that I'm slightly scared to go off on too many tangents! It kind of feels like doing the PhD, but without all the faffing about. The imposter syndrome feeling never goes away though, but I feel under more pressure to not faff. Looking back at my PhD I wish my supervisors had been a bit stricter with me in the faffing about department.

In other news, I submitted a paper for a journal today. I'm not very experienced at doing this yet - of course I had gone way over the word limit as usual so spent most of this week chopping it all out, and now I've submitted it I have absolutely no idea if it's any good or not. Not feeling very confident now, but at least I don't have to give it a single thought over the weekend!
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Just remembered as well that when I wrote to do lists I found ordering myself about really helped. So not:

1. Write intro to paper.
2. Read journal articles on x.
3.
4.
etc which just got scary and made me want to clean the oven instead,

but

1. Write intro to paper. DO THIS FIRST.
2. Read 2 journal articles on x. DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE TILL YOU'VE READ THEM.
3.
4.
etc

I know it sounds silly, but it did help.

[ 31. August 2012, 17:58: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Just to say I have had another supervision and have posted a report at on my thesis blog.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Exploration of Styles has the following blog on reverse outlines. It is persuading me more and more that my supervisors approach which I have used, that is put the literature into the chapter has its advantages, it means I construct an argument when I am dealing with the literature.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Bumping this up to see how you're all doing ... Hope this month of silence on the thread means lots of writing going on in those theses
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Now Kuruman is doing her PhD I should return to the thread, or start a "living with a thesis" thread. Having had nothing but 'this is fantastic' from her supervisor, to the extent that she was feeling guilty because it was all so painless, and even having a 'you're on the home straight now' feedback, she out of the blue had the whole thing and all its presuppositions mauled out of the water about two months ago.

And there was or is little I could say.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Poor Kuruman, my advice (for what it is worth) would be to walk away for a week; then come back and look and see what is salvageable (almost certainly more than she thinks at present). In the end theses are normally stronger for these struggles. In the meantime she might find this post useful I know it deals with papers but some of that it true as well when your thesis gets a mauling.

Well I have had a heavy writing weekend partly due to having a supervision and partly because that was what made sense with having a two week holiday. I have now crossed 80,000 word line so my thesis at present is TOO LONG and needs cutting.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
This months supervision is over and I have just the final major chapter to draft before my next one in December. My supervisor actually quite liked the structure of this chapter and the integration of theory and incidences. I am going to have to link back to earlier chapters.

Sometime fairly soon I am going to have to think of what comes next. What are the important thinks I want to take further from this thesis. This is not easy, I am very much your old style Academic following their own research agenda and not really worrying about funding, REFs or whatever. I have a day job that fits well with doing part time research (well that is not quite true, in the day job I help other people's research rather than follow my own head). The natural path is the amateur(?Gentleman?)Scholar but is there space for that in todays fiercely competive world of Academia?

Jengie
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I have now crossed 80,000 word line so my thesis at present is TOO LONG and needs cutting.

Jengie

---

Jengie: At least that means that you have got something to say about the subject. That's one positive!

Another positive is that (in my experience of writing academic and other papers) it is much easier to cut text down rather than to build it up. For one thing, you only have to deal with the text that's in front of you, rather than hunt up new material. And that can be done anywhere - which is handy if you have to move towns because your funding has run out or your spouse has a new job or whatever. ( This last point may not apply to you personally, but I bet there are others on this thread for whom it does.)
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Posting to make sure this thread avoids being oblivionated by the hosts (at least just yet ). Hope it's all going well for everyone.

I had a good day today. My boss sent me a link to a 3 year postdoc application form, we are too late for this year, but she wanted me to think about it in order to take the time to apply for next year. She was really pleased that I was interested in applying and said that she was desperate to keep me (and my colleague, to whom she also sent the link) - so I was very happy for the affirmation . We are a good team, but the nature of research jobs is that they are grant-reliant and so fixed term; at the moment we both have a while to go on our current contracts, but they both expire around the same time (his just before mine) so we are both going to have to think about the next one before too long.

In other news, tomorrow I do my final baseline interview for my current project, so I'm really pleased with that. I interview the same people again 6 months after the first interview, so will be starting again in the new year, but it is nice to have reached this milestone!
 

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Posted by Catrine (# 9811) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Sometime fairly soon I am going to have to think of what comes next. I am very much your old style Academic following their own research agenda and not really worrying about funding, REFs or whatever. I have a day job that fits well with doing part time research (well that is not quite true, in the day job I help other people's research rather than follow my own head). The natural path is the amateur(?Gentleman?)Scholar but is there space for that in todays fiercely competive world of Academia?

---

With your skills, the world is your oyster. I haven't forgotten your assistance with analyses some time ago now, and these are always skills with a premium. Just make sure that you get paid your worth (particularly with your imminent qualifications!). You have the skills to help others to meet their goals, as well as new research skills in the bag to develop your own threads of work. As for the autonomy vs following the beast (REF), it depends where you are. I've found Russell Group institutions a bit more controlling (but this may not apply to all). I now work for a post-92 and they are happy for me to work on my own things, as long as I have ticked the 4 paper ref box (and help others tick theirs!).
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Thanks Catrine

I have just managed to complete the first draft of my final substantive chapter. I am getting quite a feeling of euphoria as if I have just had a ride on a big dipper.

I need to send it to my supervisor and then I have to decide what I want to tackle next. Plenty of tasks to do in getting this from first to final draft. However I think I am stopping for the night.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Well done Jengie! Onward and upward!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Noooo! I can't read my own handwriting from my last archive trip. What can something which appears to say "16 salaries - one a cheese" possibly mean??
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Noooo! I can't read my own handwriting from my last archive trip. What can something which appears to say "16 salaries - one a cheese" possibly mean??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Had my first supervision of the year and I am aiming at finishing my thesis by end of June

---

So am I.

Race you!

(and yes, that's what I'm doing on the computer at 11:15 )
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I had an amazing dream last night, in which I was scribbling down, at great speed, thousands of words of flowing, erudite, insightful comment. Woke up, bounced out of bed, straight to the computer, switched it on, and found myself staring at a blank screen. Not a single word of last night's happy dream could I recall.

Friday's supervision went well. However, my supervisor made a passing comment that I should write the book of the PhD ASAP after finishing the actual PhD as he thinks that increasing electronic publishing will reduce my chances of having a hard copy book published if I leave it too long.

I hadn't been thinking that far ahead at all.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Poor Kuruman, my advice (for what it is worth) would be to walk away for a week; then come back and look and see what is salvageable (almost certainly more than she thinks at present). In the end theses are normally stronger for these struggles. In the meantime she might find this post useful I know it deals with papers but some of that it true as well when your thesis gets a mauling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Friday's supervision went well. However, my supervisor made a passing comment that I should write the book of the PhD ASAP after finishing the actual PhD as he thinks that increasing electronic publishing will reduce my chances of having a hard copy book published if I leave it too long.

I hadn't been thinking that far ahead at all.

---

I'm not sure what your plans are post-PhD but if you're wanting to go into academia I think having a plan for a book is really sensible, and if you can get a book contract even better. Publication really does seem to be the be all and end all at the moment, which is why I'm going to have to get my finger out to try and publish lots (I've decided against a book and am aiming for several journal articles instead; I think my thesis is too 'bitty' for a book) if I'm going to stand any chance of employers looking at me beyond my current job (I am more and more realising that I really got lucky with this one; I'm not going to be this lucky again with my currently very very short list of publications).

Good luck with it all! Looking forward to seeing you (and Zappa) in print
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I'd been planning to try to get a few journal articles published, but hadn't been thinking about the book of the PhD at all yet. I've got a couple of papers which I've given at conferences, plus a section which has been cut out of my PhD for word-count reasons, which I'd intended to work up to being journal articles. That seems achievable; a book seems like a much bigger project.

(There's also Plan B of course - write a best-selling novel based on the PhD, win the Booker, sell the film rights, etc etc etc) (She was a schoolmistress in Victorian Aberdeen; she was another schoolmistress in Victorian Aberdeen; their eyes met across a crowded classroom; their passion spanned the windswept dunes of Aberdeen beach and rain-drenched George Street....)
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Wet Victorian lesbians in Banchory. Best-sellerdom in a box I tell ya.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
NEQ:

Your posts suggest to me that your Plan A ( a few journal articles) sounds your best bet for getting some academic points on the board. You have already done a couple of conference papers you say: it should not be too hard to flesh them out into journal articles.

It's a rare thesis that converts easily into a book (even an e-book) ; most are too bitty or have too many gaps for the coherence a publishable book requires. And if the conversion is a lot of work, it's probably not worth doing if you need "brownie points" in the short term.

A quick skim of William Germano's short book "From Dissertation to book" (Uni Chicago Press,2005) may clarify the issues for you. See especially his chapter 2.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I suugest that you see what is now the norm in your specialism. If I am to publish in my specialism (and not in a related area) I will need to publish a book. There are no journals!

What I am not sure of is what sort of book the publishers will be interested in publishing. I suspect there are three separate ones, rather than one: ones is an anthropological text (academic, very limited audience); ones a book on spirituality (intelligent general Christian) and the third comes under church organisational studies (practical mission orientated). The first is the one that I want to publish as an academic, the second is the one everyone else seems to want to read but also the one that will take most work and I suspect the third is the reason I started out doing this doctorate.

I have about half a dozen papers to go back to and see if I can get in print. Fortunately they are nearly all extra to my thesis.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Wet Victorian lesbians in Banchory. Best-sellerdom in a box I tell ya.

---

Fame and fortune, here I come!

Thanks for the advice, Tukai. I was too surprised to ask any sensible questions in my supervision! I'll look at that book, and I'll try to discuss it more in my next supervision.

Jengie, my PhD falls somewhere between educational history and gender history, so I would think a book would stand most chance if it was written to pitch at both markets - maybe.

Meanwhile, Plan A ought to be - Finish the PhD!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Plan A is very much FINISH THESIS.

Another supervision done and worship chapter needs minor revisions, supervisor wants me to get poetic about the Reformed tradition .

Mind you he did agree that trying to get it down was like trying to grab a bowl full of mist. More detail in Today's update on thesis blog.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
If I am to publish in my specialism (and not in a related area) I will need to publish a book. There are no journals!

---

Yours must be the most specialised field in all academia if there are so few people in it that it that they cannot support even one journal!

I fear that no academic publisher would be interested in a book aimed at such a tiny audience.

But I suspect from what you say here (and even a glance at your blog) that your work can actually be embedded in a much wider field (e.g. sociology) and/or sits at the boundary of several wider fields (e.g. religious history as well as sociology), all of which have journals (and in which books are published ). To look at the title of most individual journal articles would suggest that at most half a dozen people in the world could fully appreciate the entirety of the work, but in fact hundreds more will connect with at least part of it, not least its broad thrust.


So I think you are thinking of the glass pessimistically as almost empty rather than optimistically as overflowing with air. In other words , there is almost certainly a much larger audience even in academia than those who could examine your thesis in this entirety. And if the second book option is what "lots of people are interested in", then that will certainly include publishers, whose first thought is usually "how many copies could it sell?"

[ 20. February 2013, 03:42: Message edited by: Tukai ]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Go an search for journals for "Congregational Studies". We publish in related journals so I have one paper in liturgy journal, one paper ready for an ecumenics journal, then perhaps one for an applied/practical theology journal (there is a South African one that takes a lot of Congregational Studies stuff) and one or two for sociology of religion journals, maybe something into an ethnography journal etc. There are papers printed in organisational studies journals and there are websites which are pretty good. This is what my supervisors suggests and he's a Prof in this area.

There seems to have just started a book series with papers in it on Eccleisiology and Ethnography and there are in the UK two other collected works (one by SCM one by Ashgate). Then there are the individual works. I suspect that in the actual area in the UK we are talking less than a dozen books. In the US where it is bigger we are talking maybe twenty to thirty books. Not all of these are relevant. Reading of course reflects publishing, in that I read widely outside the direct tradition as well.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Well another supervision over, two chapters in second draft, which means that they now can go out to my proof readers. I can tell you now that even compared with explaining complex statistical techniques, analysis by writing is hard work. I am writing about three times the amount of stuff that will actually end up in my thesis.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Bump! I do hope that silence on this thread indicates that all the Ship's thesis writers are making good progress. Or at least better than some of those that I still supervise.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
It's like wading through treacle. Although the end is in sight. I hope.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Since last post, one more chapter accepted as in second draft, one more possible, one to redraft this weekend but if that gets the green light then I have to pull one of the previous chapters from second and rework it into its second draft form.

Three steps forward, one step back.


I try and update weekly on my thesis blog rather than bore people here.

Jengie

[ 11. April 2013, 10:31: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Just posted my supervision report.I have had the initial chat with my supervisor about examiners!

Jengie
 

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Posted by Catrine (# 9811) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Just posted my supervision report.I have had the initial chat with my supervisor about examiners!

Jengie

---

EXCITING!!!- pick someone you would like to work with in the future, and who's work you admire. There's a lot of chat about not taking someone early career, or late career, or mid career or some other parameter- think about who you have met at conferences, who seemed like an intelligent, reasonable sort of person. I made a great choice for my external, and really enjoyed my viva. I liked his papers for a long time, and hoped that we could one day work together on something (we haven't but he has since died, which is an absolute shame, but we had planned to do so). I always enjoyed reading his work, and thought we had a similar perspective on substance use (we didn't always agree, but there was respect, and the viva was tough but not unfair).

Ooh this is very exciting news, good luck with the choice.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
If you go to my thesis blog you will get some hints. I am not naming at the present, as they have not been approached. However I am pleased with the person we have chosen initially. There are a couple of other possible examiners.

Jengie
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
One of my possible examiners is a Prof I admire greatly. I found myself standing next to him at the bar at a conference once and was so over-awed I said "Eep" and backed away.
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
I agree with the advice about the examiner - I had a shortlist of 2 or 3, in the end my supervisor's 1st choice couldn't do it, one of my choices wasn't senior enough (the uni stipulated an external examiner had to be at least at Senior Lecturer level), but the person we eventually ended up with was perfect. Although she wasn't exactly in my field, her research methodology was an exact fit, so she totally *got* why I did the study the way I did. It was her first time as an external examiner, but she took it seriously, didn't use it as an opportunity to promote herself, but was really thorough and fair. She has also written several great job references for me, and more recently, she contacted me to ask me to appear in a conference panel she was organising; she said that she had thought to herself "if I could organise my ideal panel on [X broad subject] who would I most want to be on it?" - and included me and the two other people who had also been in the running to be my external. One of those people specifically sought me out afterwards and told me she wants to cite my papers - not quite joint writing (yet) but I'll take what I can get

NEQ, I can't remember if I've told you this story already, but your "eep" story reminded me: the first conference I spoke at, I noticed after our panel that someone was making a beeline straight for me. I was so nervous, and thinking "oh no, please let them ask me something I can answer, please don't let me sound thick", etc etc. What she actually said was "I really like your top". And that was it! I had to wait another year before I spoke at a conference and got asked a proper academic question!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
The Prof I've previously been too nervous to speak to has informally agreed to be my external.

 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
It's still months away, though.

 

---

Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
The Prof I've previously been too nervous to speak to has informally agreed to be my external.

---

That's great news (but I can understand the thought!)
 

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Posted by loggats (# 17643) on :
 
I'm meant to be working on my dissertation... so far I've got one chapter finished and have three more in a complete shambles awaiting intense editing. Glad to know I'm not the only one at work on this kind of thing (tho fairly sure I'm guilty of the most procrastination).

For anyone interested, mine's about liturgical translation.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
My procrastination specialty is getting sidetracked. For example, on Monday, I was footnoting one woman, and thought I might as well google the church she was a member of, in 1874. And it turned out that the Sunday School Superintendant when she was a Sunday School teacher wrote a hymn, whose title rang a bell with me. So then I had to find it on Youtube and listen to it.....

I'm very susceptible to this sort of drift away from the actual thesis.
 

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Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on :
 
NEQ that is a level of procrastination I aspire to! (Says the person who is not doing a thesis but is reading this thread!!)
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I believe that anyone can learn something from PhD Comics about Procrastination
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Thanks Jengie for that link. I reckon any research student can have a wry laugh at the PhD comics. Some are very close to the bone.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I am back from another supervision, all substantive chapters in 2nd Draft. I have to tackle my conclusion this month.

I am going to have to write a theoretically strong conclusion. My supervisor got me to say what it was in my supervision, I just now have to get it down onto paper.

However what I have not said elsewhere is stress levels are showing real signs of being through the roof. I know that is normal for this stage of PhD, but I am also aware, work, church, close friends and family situations are all adding.

More on the blog in sig

Jengie
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
As Jengie Jon has just found (possibly not for the first time given your day job!) there is nothing like having to explain something verbally to someone else to help clarify your own thoughts.

JJ: Is there any chance of [temporarily at least] distancing yourself from one or two of your other stressors while you push your magnum opus into the goal? e.g. Perhaps you could forgo a church leadership position for a few months or get someone else in your household to take over some of your normal tasks.
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
I'm taking a week and a half off work in the middle of June, to try and do a bit more wrestling the thesis into something workable.

For those unaware, my official situation is that I dropped out for medical reasons, and then had to get a job to afford to live. This was 2.5 years ago. Now I'm trying to do a bit of thesis work whenever I can, which isn't very often. There's no guarantee that if I finish the university will let me submit, but I'm hopeful they will if it's good enough.

As you can imagine, motivation is hard!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Hope it goes well, Amorya!

What are people's thoughts on indexing their PhD thesis? I was intending to have an index of female names. I've been keeping a rough index as I go along, so that I don't repeat basic biographical facts about any of my women.

I understand that the index doesn't count towards the final word total, which is good because I'm nudging my maximum word length.

My supervisor appears to have been pleasantly surprised to find I've got an index, and has suggested beefing it up, to include a bit more.

What have other people done?
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Normally theses do not have an index, but I think in your case the index of women serves another purpose, in that it allows the examiner to know how many women there are involved and also maybe to build up pictures of individual women. Therefore a useful appendix

The question I would have with expanding it is does this add useful information or just confuse the information that is already there.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Hope it goes well, Amorya!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
.... I think in your case the index of women serves another purpose, in that it allows the examiner to know how many women there are involved and also maybe to build up pictures of individual women. Therefore a useful appendix

The question I would have with expanding it is does this add useful information....

Jengie

---

NEQ:
I have seen historical books with separate indexes of people, subjects, places, etc. Maybe you could just offer the first of these. On the other hand, to a certain type of mind [like mine!] it is quite fun to compile an index, so you may find a general index therapeutic. Although a thesis is not required to have an index, I'm sure most examiners would find any index a praiseworthy inclusion, as it's a pain to hunt through a thesis or book thinking "didn't she something about X two chapters back? Can I find it?" I've found the best way to get the index to point to right final pages is to do the draft references to sections or draft pages (marked as such , e.g.D1-35) and amend only when everything else is in place. Otherwise it will be one or two pages off, which is tiresome and not so praiseworthy.

[ 08. June 2013, 08:49: Message edited by: Tukai ]
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
The index I currently have just has chapter numbers, which is all I need to search for a name. Actual page numbers will be a final thing I do.

I'll have about 500 names, so at 50 to a page, that'll be 10 pages (or 5 if two columns per page is feasible).

I definitely want an index of names for my own future use.

I'm interested in what others have done; should I index more thoroughly than just female names?
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
No idea re indexing NEQ - hope you find a solution that works for your thesis. For me it would have just been another source of procrastination

Tomorrow I have my annual appraisal for this first post-doc. Having spent my entire postgrad career (masters and PhD) thinking "they're going to find me out", I think that the reality is that this postdoc is the closest I'm going to come to that happening. I don't think I really need worry, but I am suddenly a bit anxious about it.

I had an article published recently, it had been a mere footnote in my thesis. It's really interesting, 2 years after getting the PhD, how interested I still am in my PhD research but how my thinking has moved on and the stuff which interested me when I wrote the thesis isn't necessarily the stuff I want to focus on so much now.
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
Appraisals are a horrid thought, JtL, but hopefully not so bad in reality. It sounds like you have been doing really good work, and it is great that the topic still fascinates you, because that means you will be chattering to your appraisers with real enthusiasm tomorrow. And if they were going to find you out, they would have done so by now!

So for you for tomorrow. Let us know how it goes.
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Thanks Cottontail, you're right of course. The thing is that it's the PhD stuff I'm still enthusiastic about - the project I'm working on for this postdoc is OK but not what I'm passionate about; I'm kind of on my own in terms of progressing publications etc from the PhD (although to be fair my boss has given me the time to present at a couple of conferences and been willing to read through stuff I've written). But my colleagues are great, I've landed on my feet, so I know I'm being a bit irrational. I'll be glad when it's over though
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I have an Intention to Submit form ...wibble...
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I join you there although I suspect I am going to delay another month.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I'm still a bit away, but some organised person sent me the Intention to Submit form, assuming that I would be likely to request it while they were on holiday.

...still wibbling....
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
I know it's all very wibbling, but is a significant milestone nonetheless - well done both Jengie and NEQ for getting to this point! I feel like I've followed your theses from the start

Not that this is probably any consolation at the moment while it's so daunting and with so many other things going on, but once I'd submitted my 'Intention to Submit' form I did find that I had quite a lot of last-minute lightbulb moments, and stuff which I'd written which had good information but just wasn't expressed well suddenly all came together.

Perhaps I need to find an equivalent for the article I'm trying to write at the moment. Let's just say I'm getting some very robust (albeit very constructive) criticism from my boss, which is also making me wibble a bit. She is right, of course, and it is improving with each draft, but it's just so frustrating that I can't see it for myself without having someone else point out the imperfections!
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Just back from what should be my penultimate supervision, next task is to sort my notice to submit form! Yes it is now urgent!

Then just some minor edits on two chapters and pull the whole thing together in less than eight weeks. More detail on the thesis blog.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
How unusual is it to be supervisorless?

Basically, one of my supervisors became long-term ill at the end of last year. As I was fairly far on, I agreed that the University wouldn't provide a replacement as it would take someone too long to get "up to speed" with my research.

Then my second supervisor had a sabbatical term, so I technically didn't have anyone, though I was entirely relaxed about this.

Now - damn! - the University finance department are wanting to charge me a "late submission fee." I'm arguing that I might have submitted by now had I had normal supervision.

I've no quarrel with my supervisors, or the department, but I'm buggered if I'm going to pay extra for being co-operative.
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
My advisor was on sabbatical and away for most of the year when I wrote my thesis. it was great. I gave him chapters as I wrote them and had quick feedback. The plus side was there was nobody breathing down my neck.
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Sorry, not a sabbatical term, he was working at a different University for a term. He was available by e-mail for queries, but not to read chunks of work.

This wouldn't have been a problem, had it not been that I'm now being charged a fee!!

I have hardly set foot inside my University this year, as I have no supervisors there, and I'm physically closer to another University library, for which I also have membership.

My last supervision wasn't at my Uni, I travelled to see my supervisor (3 1/2 hours by train each way). I was quite happy with this (fitted in an enjoyable couple of touristy hours visiting a new place) but since the absence of supervisors has already cost me extra in train fares, and I'm not actually using my University facilities, I'm pissed off to be asked for extra money!
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Have you appealed the extra fee?
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I'm trying! But the fees department say they have nothing to do with the internal workings of the departments, they're just following regulations, and everyone I've contacted so far in the department has said but don't seem to have any suggestions as to what to do about it.



Today I got a standard reminder from the finance department, ignoring previous correspondence, and threatening to close down my University e-mail account in 3 weeks time.
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Do you have a Dean of Graduate Studies?
 

---

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Are you a member of the NUS?
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Not a member of the NUS. I'm waiting for some calls to be returned, then I'll decide what to do.
Thanks for help.
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Two members of the department have said, by e-mail, they'd support me in an appeal, but neither know how to proceed with an appeal. The Finance Office doesn't think there is a right of appeal. The person most likely to know how to proceed is on holiday.

Hopefully this will all get sorted out before my University e-mail is frozen!
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
There is always a right to appeal. You need to find out who has the authority to wave this fee and plead your case to them.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I am taking a guess here, but what you want is the document like this from your university. If you do not want to leap straight into that then you need to go to your Student Advice and Support Office (or equivalent)

People wonder why I fuss over registering.

The knowledge that allowed me to find this is because I have dealt with too many students, that I have had to refer to these people.

Jengie

[ 20. August 2013, 17:39: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Oh Academic Bureaucracy. Best conquered with persistence, patience, and a bulldozer...or a minion who can whip up enough concrete to make shoes for half the Provost's Office.

Not to give you any hints or anything, but as one who kinda works on the Dark Side of the faculty/staff divide, you have to remember the one thing you've probably learned: nobody else has any clue about what the regulations really are. Act like you know them, tell them they have to do it, find whatever bylaw you can twist and interpret to help you, and, if necessary, find someone with a handy computer terminal who wants to help you and is just as frustrated as you are with The Rules that keep sending you back to their office.

Also, cookies. Always the cookies.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
How unusual is it to be supervisorless?

---

Not much help, but a reminiscence ... I started my PhD at one university, but my supervisor died ... I re-enrolled faithfully, writing in a vacuum, before the department discovered I existed when a new head took over. All that time O was awaiting promised instructions ... But they hadn't a clue who I was for two years, so eventually when I was rediscovered on the books I was re-routed to a different university (and a shit load of angst, but that's another story that some may recall)
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
North East Quine

Technically you should not be supervisor-less, it is a break in the system. However anecdotal evidence suggests that being effectively supervisor-less is more common than Universities will admit. This is in part why a lot of PhDs are now jointly supervised. This reduces the number of such cases but also increase the risk that a candidate will not be happy with one supervisor.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I have only just remembered this thread exists.

I have just sent my final complete draft of my DPil dissertation to my supervisor for his final read through. He's seen it all at least twice but there's always something else.

Three years, 99,281 words, 1,142 footnotes and more nights of terrified mental blankness and days of increasing anxiety than I care to remember.

The examiners are appointed and I hope to defend it before Christmas. If you have any spare, please.
 

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Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :
 
I've just submitted
 

---

Posted by frin (# 9) on :
 
@NorthEastQuine unless you actively left the NUS at your university at some point, then you are a member of it. They usually have an academic support worker or officer of some point, who will have supported lots of students with a dispute of some kind with the university. If the situation is not yet resolved, talk with them about it.
'frin
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Apparently the fee can't be waived, but my department are going to pay it for me!

And in other news, I have been inconsistent in footnote references between p5, p 5, p.5 and p. 5.

Trawling through my footnotes, tidying up my p's.

 

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Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
That's a simple process nowadays, eh? Back in the mists of time when PCs were new, I was running a final check with WP2.something, and inadvertently (probably due to my own stupidity) deleted every e in a 50 page paper. I pressed undo, but that evil program just laughed and laughed at me. It took about three hours to track down every one. And the paper was due the next day.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Right. Yesterday I sent my full thesis off to my supervisor for his final check through. I also gave it to a proof reader.

For the first time in over ten years there is nothing I could be doing to progress my thesis.

Weird!

This is not submission, I get it back start of October and then have to get it finalised for the end of that month to submit.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
That's a simple process nowadays, eh? Back in the mists of time when PCs were new, I was running a final check with WP2.something, and inadvertently (probably due to my own stupidity) deleted every e in a 50 page paper. I pressed undo, but that evil program just laughed and laughed at me. It took about three hours to track down every one. And the paper was due the next day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
...

And in other news, I have been inconsistent in footnote references between p5, p 5, p.5 and p. 5.

...

---

NEQ: that used be called "minding your P's and Q's" !
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Right. Yesterday I sent my full thesis off to my supervisor for his final check through. I also gave it to a proof reader.

For the first time in over ten years there is nothing I could be doing to progress my thesis.

Weird!

This is not submission, I get it back start of October and then have to get it finalised for the end of that month to submit.

Jengie

---

And today I sent mine off to my supervisor. I still have to finish the index, but that was no reason to delay sending it off.




I hoped to finish this morning, so I'm still in my PJs at 3.40 pm, haven't had any lunch yet, but am totally wired on coffee.

I think I'll go and have a bubble bath!
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
These things eventually end? Wow. Impressed with you both!
 

---

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I submitted mine yesterday.

Viva should be within eight weeks.

Also told this week that if it passes and I can find some funding, I can have a post-doc research fellowship.

[ 21. September 2013, 13:30: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Exciting times - well done Jengie, NEQ and Trisagion! (for the two of you close to submitting but not quite there yet, my main top tip is to make sure you don't have a burst pipe the day before submitting. Not that that's the voice of experience or anything ).

Trisagion, I will keep everything lit, crossed, etc for postdoc funding (that's the big 'if', I've no doubt about the passing the viva bit). Maybe soon there will be enough of us postdocs that we can have our own support thread
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
A complete aside but as a Host I have to read all threads and I have really enjoyed/still enjoy journeying along with you all on this one, through your anxieties and doubts of competence and then on to submission and vivat and award - fabulous!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Well Welease Wodderwick, this thesis journey is going to take slightly longer than I was expecting as I have to do a re-write to major restructuring of the argument. That can not be done is a month, and I need some time to get my head around it. I expect to submit early in 2014 now.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
You'll get there, Jengie! But it must feel grim just now.

My thesis doesn't even make sense to me any more - I need some distance from it. Fortunately, my supervisor has signed off on the main body of the thesis, but has recommended "presentational improvements." I hope to submit next week.
 

---

Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on :
 
I'm coming to the end of my experimental work and it's time to focus on the writing.

Yes, I do already have chunks here and there (a literature review which needs updating, various interim reports, bits of results/methods here and there) but it's time to really get on with turning it into the thesis and filling in the substantial gaps in between the existing material. And yet... and yet... the grumpy toddler in me keeps going "I DON'T WANT TO". Added to that a few personal things have left me with little spare creative capacity at the moment, and a big old empty hole in my head whenever I sit down to try to start.

Any advice? I am familiar with the concept of breaking down chapters/sections into smaller manageable chunks, but all that does is increase the number of items on my to do list. It doesn't make me actually do them! I have found 'Shut up and Write' type sessions helpful in the past for getting words on the page, but currently all my potential writing buddies are highly unavailable. I've tried to make myself accountable by telling my supervisor I will send him a chapter at the end of this month no matter what state it's in, but that prospect is filling me more with panic than motivation. How do I get over the initial hurdle?
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Wrote this out earlier but my productivity software clicked in at work and chucked me off the ship. No work is not that dictatorial, I put it on my machine so as to limit the time I was on the internet.

Two suggestions, the first is something I took from Robert Boice's book Professors as Writers. That is to write regularly in short timed bursts to capture or create basic ideas for writing. What you do it get a timer (a kitchen one will do), set it for half an hour and write for half an hour on whatever section of your thesis you are tackling. Do not correct spellings, cite works or worry about style, the sole purpose is to capture your thinking. Done in ten half hour slots a week this can generate about 5,000 words a week. Keep the shots short and do not follow one slot with the next. Say do one in the morning and one in the afternoon. You will need to shape this up for your thesis, so you are not just writing for five hours a week, but it stops quite a bit of writers block.

Secondly make a representation of the word count for your thesis. This is what I started with and here is what I got to fourteen months later. I stopped doing it then as I was far more into shaping and editing and these do not have the same easy way of marking progress.

Three plan your basic layout of your thesis so you have an idea of what goes where when you start writing. As you have experimental work then you may find it easy enough to adapt the advice in this pdf to get a first outline.

There are three stages to writing a thesis in my experience. The first is generating a basic text,and that is what this is aimed at. Then there is shaping which is about making sure that things are clear, the argument runs through the thesis, and there are not too many loose ends or repetitions. The final stage is proofing which is careful editing to get int a final form.

Word of warning, please do not think that what you have written in the past can simply be dropped into your thesis. For instance your literature review in the early part of your doctorate has a different role to that in your thesis.

You might find keeping a blog as I did or joining in #phdchat on twitter is good.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on :
 
Thanks Jengie. Perhaps I should have said my literature review needs 'revising' rather than 'updating'. I have no intention of using any of my existing chunks of text as is. But I am finding comfort in them being there as a starting point.

The fact is that all three of your suggestions are methods I have employed with some degree of success in the past (though my representation is a rather more dull cumulative word count chart in Excel ). But I am suffering somewhat from a psychological barrier to actually engaging my brain on the topic even enough to do free-writing, which is normally something that at the minimum I can achieve. It's like the gears have got locked. I get energised when I speak to my supervisor or collaborators about the research, but when I return to my desk to write or finish of those analyses, something in me just slumps again.

It could just be that current Real Life stresses are taking it out of me too much and I need to resolve those before I can reasonably expect to produce anything. Maybe I just need to cut myself a little slack. But I don't want to make indefinite excuses for myself either.

Hazey

PS. I am currently trying a change of scenery back in my native city. So far I have drunk an awful lot of tea...
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Are you doing something else creative? That may sound counter intuitive, but I find creativity feeds on creativity and at this stage creativity is a major part of writing your thesis. Now with working on thesis I can not sustain big projects such as writing a novel or even writing a short story, but I can write poems. Indeed the process I go through with the poem is the same as the analytic process in my thesis. I developed that as I created poems. It also gives a space for emotion to be expressed apart than through my thesis.

It might be that an intense weekend doing something different but creative would release the blockage.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
To add I took a two week holiday before starting to write up. I need to create distance from the detailed observational work I had been doing and going away was part of that. It was only partly successful, but it would have been worse if I had not.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Are you doing something else creative? That may sound counter intuitive, but I find creativity feeds on creativity and at this stage creativity is a major part of writing your thesis. Now with working on thesis I can not sustain big projects such as writing a novel or even writing a short story, but I can write poems. Indeed the process I go through with the poem is the same as the analytic process in my thesis. I developed that as I created poems. It also gives a space for emotion to be expressed apart than through my thesis.

---

You know that might just do it. I've had very little creative outlet for a while, and I keep saying "I must get back into knitting/baking/whatever" but not doing anything about it because I feel like I should only be working on the thesis. I can see that creating something where there are instructions on how to create it (rather than me having to make yet more decisions) might stimulate the right bits of my brain.

Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes.
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Post viva- I know I'll have to make some changes to the thesis, as per examiner's comments?

My question is - in addition to them, can I make changes of my own? Presumably, if I remember somebody I've missed out from my acknowledgements, there'd be no problem adding them in? What if I find a missing piece of paper that would let me add a useful footnote? I have an index of names; what if I did an index of placenames, too? Could that get added in, post-viva, pre-hard copy?
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I don't want to ask my supervisor, because I think I'll be told to stop faffing, submit the bloody thing and step right back from it.
 

---

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
I'm here to tell you to stop faffing about.
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 



[ 07. October 2013, 11:34: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
You can do what Jack the Lass did and turn up to the Viva with a list of amendments you would make. However, I suggest you do not look at the thing for at least a month.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
NEQ, Jengie beat me to it! To be honest though, 95% of my amendments were typos I'd spotted It did mean though that instead of each individual typo being pointed out in my corrections, I just had a one-line sentence saying "the candidate should correct the typographical errors she has identified" (well I had other corrections as well, but it was at least nice to have 6 sides of identified typos distilled into the one sentence!).

The other thing is that even despite that, 2+ years later I'm still finding more typos

Re the other potential amendments - identify what they might be and do a little (and I mean little) bit of thinking about them, but don't spend tons of time on them - just a few notes to get them out of your system. If the examiners bring them up you can then say "ah yes, I noticed that, and was going to do x to remedy it" (this is good as they will probably just be impressed, and be more likely to let you have your own way, rather than giving you new stuff to write about), but if they don't bring them up then I am confident that once you get the list of their corrections the last thing you will want to do is give yourself even more work (trust me on this!). The fact is the thesis (even if you have no corrections) is not perfect and can always do with something or other being tweaked, but there comes a point where you just have to stop. Plus they are experienced enough to know what a good thesis looks like, and if they haven't identified that you need an extra index (or whatever) then there might well be a good reason for that. If you want to turn your thesis into a book then you can always add the extra index and other stuff to that.

In the meantime, STOP FAFFING!!!

[ 07. October 2013, 19:06: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Post viva...if I remember somebody I've missed out from my acknowledgements, there'd be no problem adding them in?

---

quote:

---

What if I find a missing piece of paper that would let me add a useful footnote? I have an index of names; what if I did an index of placenames, too? Could that get added in, post-viva, pre-hard copy?

---

Don't bother , for the reasons JJ and Jack the Lass gave. In short, stop faffing about the thesis as such, because as every would-be academic knows, though it may be hard for you to realise at this stage, the thesis is not the ultimate academic product. That is the articles and books(?!) that it spawns. .
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Thank you, everybody.

Unfortunately, my printer is playing up. So the plan to print it off today, get it soft bound tomorrow and submit on Thurs is starting to look as though it might slip another day.


 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
(I could head into Uni and print it out there, but it's my littlest god-daughter's birthday, and I promised I'd see her after school, plus I'm going to a three-line-whip church meeting tonight, so it's now too late in the day to be heading into Uni - an hour by bus each way.)
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Noooooooo!

The printer got sorted and I put in a brand-new extra-long-life black ink cartridge. One that said it would print a minimum of 1000 sheets. 700 sheets later, I've run out of ink. So unless I can get another cartridge in Tesco tonight, I can't finish printing, can't get it soft bound tomorrow and can't submit on Friday.



 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Tesco had ink!
 

---

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Laus Deo, as they say. Praise God.
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Tesco had ink!

---

Hooray!

I know it's really stressful and drama-queeny at the moment, but you'll look back on this and laugh and have a tale to tell. My just-before-submission drama was a burst pipe in our flat, I'm still milking that one

Do you have anything nice planned for Friday once you've submitted?
 

---

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
Go, NEQ! I remember well the moment of printing out, and it is a stunning feeling. Cheering you on from here.
 

---

Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
You can do what Jack the Lass did and turn up to the Viva with a list of amendments you would make. However, I suggest you do not look at the thing for at least a month.

Jengie

---

I did both of those. My viva is now passed and I have a list of corrections ... and I don't feel like like looking at it for at least another instance of another month!
 

---

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
What Cottontail said - best of luck, NEQ!
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
At 10pm last night I finished a pack of paper, and opened the whole new box of printer paper I had at the ready - only it wasn't printer paper, but gate-fold perforated stuff. It looked like another trip to Tesco, but fortunately after a bit of a flap I rustled up enough to finish from around the house.

Off into in the bindery this morning - arrived at 9.10 in good time for the 10am deadline and.... everyone was standing outside in the rain. The fire alarm had gone off and, as it wasn't a drill, no-one knew what was happening.
Fortunately it was a false alarm and I handed my copies in to be soft-bound.

It was then I spotted THE MISTAKE. On the front sheet. In 16 font. Submitted September 2013.

So I'm hoping that no-one else notices, and if they do, I'll just have to get the tippex out.

I'm due to get my soft-bound copies back this afternoon, and submit tomorrow.

What can possibly go wrong in the next 24 hours?
 

---

Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on :
 
Did you get it handed in ok NEQ?
 

---

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Yes! On my way to submit I failed to notice that the lid of my coffee-to-go wasn't on properly and poured half a mug of coffee down the front of my coat, but my thesis was well wrapped and unaffected.

I have submitted!
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Well done to NEQ. Despite my previous remarks about the relative importance of theses, they feel pretty important and all-consuming at the time. So, now 's the time for a nice cup of tea, or a day at the beach, or whatever else helps you to feel relaxed.

And while I'm at it, well done also to Jengie Jon,who's also now near the end of very long track to fame and fortune.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Congratulations NEQ
 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
Well done to NEQ.<snip> So, now 's the time for a nice cup of tea, or a day at the beach, or whatever else helps you to feel relaxed. <snip>

---

Fraserburgh looks nice, and today or tomorrow looks fine and bright. Just mind you wrap up well. It's a lazy wind off the North Sea, I think. (Oh, BTW, don't forget to get that coat cleaned up!)
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Congratulations NEQ,

Hope you enjoy your Thesis free time.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Congratulations, NEQ!
 

---

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
Well done NEQ. Enjoy that unbearable lightness of being which will doubtless be engulfing you.
 

---

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
NEQ.
 

---

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Good on you, NEQ! Never mind a cup of tea, get that champagne bottle uncorked!


 

---

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
The vivanxiety is setting in. In a moment of folly I checked a footnote yesterday evening. I had suggested that someone "had not been interested in" a particular notion. The authority cited says "was impatient of the idea". Bugger!
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Trisagon:

Take heart! Unless that "someone" is one of your examiners , you can bet "London to a brick" that no-one will notice except you. And you can tidy up the footnote as part of the inevitable post-viva corrections to the deposit copy of the thesis.
 

---

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
I think that sometimes viva anxiety can serve a useful purpose. A few weeks before my viva I had the worst anxiety dream (I dreamt my external examiner hated my thesis so much that she refused to speak to me and walked out of the viva! The internal examiner stayed but basically just tutted, shook her head sadly and occasionally sucked her teeth) and was completely traumatised when I woke up. But then I realised that, however bad the viva might be, it really wasn't going to be as bad as that, and that bizarrely helped me to relax a little and put it into perspective. I was still glad when it was over, of course, but that dream really did mark the turning point in the pre-viva angsting.

I agree with Tukai, what to you seems like a massive clanger will probably be barely noticed. To this lay person it sounds like you have just paraphrased rather than exactly quoted, which is hardly failure-worthy (particularly assuming you have referenced the paraphrased citation).

When is your viva, Trisagion?
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I'm still awaiting confirmation of the date. The internal examiner telephoned to me today to say that he's chasing the external and hopes to have a date within a week. The University's regulations say its got to be within three months, so the long-stop date is 20th December, which happens to be my mother's birthday.
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
Viva fixed for 11am on Tuesday, 11th December.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
How did it go, Trisagion?
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
(psst Wodders, you're a month ahead of yourself! Though I guess that would make the basis of a pretty freaky viva anxiety dream!)

Hope those of you in the viva preparation stage are not freaking out too much

And best wishes to those of you a bit further away from that point, hope that you're still moving forward with it all
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 


When in retirement all months are much the same!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I haven't got a date yet, other than "probably early January." But I've started writing what I hope will be a readable, and hence publishable, version. It's taken a week to get the first 1,100 words written.

I am getting a fuzzy happy feeling when I think about writing it, which dissipates as soon as I've opened the word document.

Has anybody tried to write up their thesis for a general readership, as opposed to academic?
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
How did it go, Trisagion?

---

It hasn't taken place yet. Date now 11am, Tuesday, 3rd December. Saw it in the University Gazette this week. It now seems horribly real and uncomfortably close. Prayers, please.
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Trisagion, forgive me if this is inappropriate, but it seems to me that the way you post screams of someone with an academic intellect, attention to detail and a critical mind. This comes across so palpably in this limited text medium that I cannot imagine you will have any difficulty convincing examiners of this with the benefit of a written thesis and an encounter in the flesh.

You have my humble and superfluous prayers in addition.
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
You are too kind. Many thanks for the prayers.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Trisagion - Good luck!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
How did it go?
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I passed. A few minor corrections but a recommendation for publication as well.

Many thanks for all your prayers
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Congratulations!!! Well done, Dr Trisagion.
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
Congratulations!!! Well done, Dr Trisagion.

---

Congratulations from here, too.

Q.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
...and from me!
 

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Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
Congratulations to you, Doctor Trisagion.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Well done, Trisagion!

AG
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Congratulations Trisagion and I hope you find a publisher for the book of the thesis.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
Many thanks all. I now find myself completely knackered, emotionally flat and wondering what I'm going to do next. I think I'm going to sleep for a week.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Congratulations, Dr. Trisagion!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I have a viva date. It's in January.

... ...
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
How soon in January. If the later half, do Christmas and New Year and then create time to prepare.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Congratulations Dr Trisagion!

Now to start cheering NEQ down the home strait
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
So close, Dr-in-Potentia Quine!
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:
I have a viva date. It's in January.

... ...

---

Rest, rest, rest.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 


Passed with minor revisions.


 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Congratulations.

Hope that the minor corrections are soon done!

Jengie
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Congratulations, NEQ!
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Congratulations
 

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Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :
 
What a good start to 2014. Congratualtions
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
Hooray!
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Well done, NEQ!
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Yes, well done!
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Congratulations, NEQ!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Congratulations.

Hope that the minor corrections are soon done!

Jengie

---

It's revisions, rather than corrections. I haven't got them in writing yet, but I think it only affects my Introduction. I said what I was going to study, but the supervisor feels I should have a section saying "I could have included this, but I chose not to because..."

Plus he feels one of my appendices doesn't add much to my central theme - he's right, I think I only included it because it represented a lot of work and I was loth not to use it, so tabulated it and stuck it in as an appendix.

I was hard up against the 100,000 word limit (I'd have been over it if my sneaky "index" had been included in the word count

So, drop one appendix, and add a section to my Intro, plus correct typos.

I've got two months to do the revisions.

The viva felt pretty brutal, but they have strongly advised me to aim to write it up as a book.
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
Brilliant NEQ. Well done.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I think I have just forgiven my university for having an 80,000 word limit as they do not include appendices! I think I have at least 20,000 words in those. Three case studies, consent forms, interview protocol and I just realised I can bung a statistical analysis in there as well. The Bibliography does not count either.

Jengie
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I've got my list of revisions and (gulp) there's rather more than I expected.

I'll clarify this with the Uni next week, but wonder if anyone knows the answer to this meanwhile, I was hard up to the maximum word count when I submitted (100,000, but I was told I had wiggle room up to 102,000; my word count was 101,000). The revisions include several stipulations to add paragraphs, usually to add more general historical background and context. If I just do the revisions, without cutting back elsewhere, I'm going to end up well over the word limit.

Can I simply do what I've been asked to do, regardless of word limit?
 

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Posted by Derf (# 2093) on :
 
No idea of the answer to your question (someone at the uni must know, surely. Or just add more words and say 'but the examiner told me to...') but wanted to add my congratulations
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I am afraid I suspect that nobody but those at your university can answer. My university has a totally different word count regime.

Jengie
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I will ask the Uni, but I got my list of revisions on Sat morning and I'm at a day conference tomorrow. This thread seemed the answer to my Sat morning flap!

On calmer reflection, it might not be as daunting as it first seemed. I might just press on and see whether the word count does rise alarmingly.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Is there a deadline for revisions?

I would write away. It's always easier to edit down than bulk up.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I've got two months to do the revisions, which seems generous.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Right I am doing .

My supervisor emailed me this morning to say when is our next supervision, I am getting through the careful proofing of your thesis.

This caused a wobble, first I had a supervision at the start of March, secondly I was not expecting him to be careful proof reading for another couple of months.

I emailed him back, and it looks now as if I may submit before Easter instead of before Witsun!

Jengie
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Yay! Jengie!
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 


Bah! Almost at the end of the time I was given to do the "minor revisions." One of the revisions I was struggling with was that I should "use the work of X on Y" I couldn't find any work by X on Y. So, getting desperate, I e-mailed X asking for references to her work on Y - and there aren't any, yet. She expects her first article on Y to be published later this year and anticipates a second article being published early next year.



Still, with that cleared up, I might be able to finish my revisions and get it sent off today.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
This sounds awfully like "I heard a brilliant paper at a conference last year, it must be published by now" scenario. This is forgetting that a two year gestation space (between initial conception and final publication) must be about normal and reporting to at a conference is often early kite flying in the process.

Anyway a footnote that you believe X is doing interesting work on Y but at this point it is unpublished would cover the correction. Then cite personal email from X.

Annoying but it sounds as if corrections are getting done.

Jengie

[ 26. February 2014, 09:12: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I'm pretty sure that's what has happened, Jengie.

However, X has now kindly e-mailed the unpublished paper, and it covers Roman Catholic west coast Scotland 1811-1843, whereas I'm supposed to have used it in a section of my thesis relating to Protestants in the early 1870s in east coast Scotland. So whatever my examiner vaguely recalls hearing at a conference, it has no bearing on my thesis! Even a footnote wouldn't work, unless it said "I believe X is doing interesting work on something entirely unrelated to this topic."

The next comment on my list of revisions is that I wrote about X parish, without mentioning Y school. That's because Y school wasn't in X parish. Perhaps I should provide a footnote of other random schools which weren't in X parish either?

Sigh.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
And yes, I wasted time trying to work out why the examiner thought Y school was relevant to X parish.

Sigh.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Oh dear does sound as if she was half asleep during the conference presentation as well.

Might you take the approach I and a colleague (they are her papers) regularly take with papers and reviewers comments. Create an editable file with a list of the comments in. Against each one state either how you have tackled the correction or why it is not reasonable to make that correction. This shows you have not ignored the correction list without you having to make stupid ones.

Remember you are the expert she is only an academic whose work is similar enough that she can examine you.

Jengie

[ 26. February 2014, 18:12: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
That is what I'm doing. The snag is the waste of time finding out that "use the work of X on Y" isn't a sensible comment.

I'm feeling snarky because I really wanted to have had this over and done with by now!
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:


Might you take the approach I and a colleague (they are her papers) regularly take with papers and reviewers comments. Create an editable file with a list of the comments in. Against each one state either how you have tackled the correction or why it is not reasonable to make that correction. This shows you have not ignored the correction list without you having to make stupid ones.

---

• I have not read any of the poems for over a week.
• I have lost the bead bracelet that I was using as a way of marking Lent after taking it off for Sunday.
• but I have submitted my thesis.

More to follow on my blog shortly.


Jengie
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Congratulations, Jengie!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Thank you.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
My Viva is organised for Tuesday 3rd June (slight hitch in that they forgot to consult my supervisor before setting the date). The other thing today was my external examiner requested an electronic copy. I sent her a pdf, I do not trust Word to handle figures at all well on a different computer.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Excellent news Jengie! I found having a date helpful in managing the nerves (but then having the date changed to the day before due to it falling on a UCU strike day cancelled all that out!). I hope that the preparation continues to go well for you.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Thank you. I am not sure how the date is playing with me, I was told not to expect anything until the May Day bank holiday. I need to start working out how I am going to prepare, but that can wait until after Easter.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Just bumping this up to avoid the hostly oblivionator. Hope preparations are going well, Jengie, and best wishes to other thesissers out there
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
*bump* again to say all the best, Jengie, I am thinking of you this week.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Thank you.

I have checked that the local Sainsbury's has a cafe!! Alright there is a sensible place other than that to get lunch BUT it is almost certainly where my examiners are meeting. Compared with that Sainsbury's cafe feels safe, neutral and anonymous.

I will let people know on Tuesday.

Jengie
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
All the best, Jengie!!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Thank you.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
If it's the Sainbury's, I think it is, it's my local one and the cafe's pretty good.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Thoughts and prayers, Jengie
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
Ooh Jengie, exciting times! Thinking of you as Tuesday approaches, with prayers for your success. xx
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
All the best, Jengie.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
From us over here, too.


 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Thank you all.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Just to say that the outcome was for me to resubmit within 12 months.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Jengie, it's hard to know what to say, but I hope you're OK and that you have good people (including, but not restricted to, your supervisor) with whom you can properly debrief when the time is right. I won't ask for all the gory details as this probably isn't the place, and I guess it will be on your blog when it feels right to you to write it all down. I just hope that you can look back on the examiners' comments and find a positive way forward. I do know a friend who had the same scenario a few years ago; at the time it was terribly traumatic for her but 12 months later when she resubmitted and was re-examined she did agree that the thesis was better for it.

In the meantime, my thoughts and prayers are with you
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
^Me too.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
For those who want the gory details they are now up on my blog. At least those I could recall when writing.

Jengie
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
JJ
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Oh, Jengie, that's tough.

Someone I know is doing a very interview-heavy PhD and he got funding to have some of his interviews transcribed for him; is that a possibility?

[ 04. June 2014, 21:10: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Just to say that the outcome was for me to resubmit within 12 months.

Jengie

---

Oh, shit. I'm sorry. But you will rise, and the work will be all the better for it.
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
<taps on door & peers into the SCR>
Hi all - is there a space for a Master's dissertation here? Final year of a distance learning MTh starts in Sept, and I've just had a scoping meeting with the programme leader.

How do you eat an elephant?
Any and all sage advice welcomed for this non-humanities student!

Thanks
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Welcome Qoheleth! But be warned, I started out on the original version of this thread when I was in the final year of my Masters degree (2003/2004! A lifetime ago) and subsequent threads saw me through my PhD. Don't say I didn't warn you
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
(apologies for double post) Also, good luck! My Masters was also distance learning, which brought its own unique challenges, it has to be said.
 

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