Ship of Fools: Emerging from agony

Thread: Emerging from agony Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027473

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

I've been in agony for the past several weeks as my eyes have been opened to the pervasive deceitfulness and harmfulness from someone I've been connected to through a small group in the church. The best that I could say about this person is that they are completely self-deluded. That doesn't minimize the harm they do. Specifically, my core values have been attacked and undermined -- oh in condescending Christian love of course -- for years. Every aspect of everything important I've ever been told by this person is turning out to be false and deceitful. I am by turns furious and in deep pain.

A plan of action has recently been reached that will end the future harm to this group and to me by this person. Thank God. Now I am struggling with waking up from the lies. I'm taking almost a decade of conclusions I deferred to this person on, and throwing them all out as worthless trash.

I'm making plans to shore myself up as best I can (not necessarily in any order of priority):

* regular church attendance (which in my church means communion: yay!),

* changing from once-a-month 15-minute meds check to real weekly hour-long therapy (and with a new therapist as soon as I can find someone),

* going to Al-Anon once again (alcohol isn't AFAICT an issue here, but it was once a perhaps slightly-related issue in a different relationship years ago, and Al-Anon remains the only support group I know of for learning how to cope with dysfunction in healthy ways)

* sorting out pastoral and advisorial support for myself as a leader of this group, and separate pastoral support for myself as a deeply hurt member of my congregation (two different congregations involved, different roles for the two priests)

* getting a bible app which along with the deuterocanonical books includes as a surprise bonus an Orthodox lectionary, so I'm dipping carefully into that occasionally. (Not careful because of the Orthodox part; careful because I have a very bruised relationship with God and the Bible that goes back years, and what I have found is that if I get fooled into relying on them too much I get kicked in the teeth.)

* learning about the things that it turns out I am woefully ignorant about; if I had understood certain things about human behavior and dynamics years ago this might have all developed differently and not led to such agony. Looking both short-term "what can I learn from books/ on the Internet/ from therapist and pastoral and advisorial counselors" and longer term "I think I need some of the kind of training that priests and chaplains get."

* finding ways to not give this any room in my head when I'm at work, where things are blessedly sane and even the craziest day getting run off my feet with ridiculously insane problems (computer problems, in my job) is a blessed relief compared to this insanity.

If you've been following TICTH, the prayer thread, the vocations thread, or the comic stress-induced adventures of Ios' fictitious friend A. on the Mafia thread, you've seen bits of this. I've had some wonderful support from those threads and PMs to help me through the immediate crisis of ending the situation. Now I'm into the aftermath and hoping for more support. This feels like a different kind of problem. Now instead of trying to figure out how to stop that person and their insanity, I need to recover from the insanity and lies that I've lived through.

Can Shipmates offer any advice or support? This feels utterly awful.

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

I am so sorry you have been so wounded and deceived. I'm glad you are formulating a plan for the way forward and will hold you in my prayers. Sorry, too, that I have no real advice but I'm sure there are wiser shipmates who do. [Votive]

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

I like your list - I think you should continue to keep it and to add to it and annotate it when you achieve something, anything, towards one of those goals. You could also, if you were so inclined, either add into it, or keep separately, a Gratitude List.

You may even, in the long term [I'm thinking way ahead here, like several years], be able to add this situation into the Gratitude List - I know this seems unlikely from where you are now but it could happen.

[Votive]

for you as you walk this road.

[eta: there is this expectation that Hosts should be able to code, so why do I have to correct my own?]

[ 14. April 2014, 07:11: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

More power to your elbow. [Votive]

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

[Votive]

Your list of recovery tools is very impressive.

I haven't read all your threads but I do have some insight into your pain.

I think the Al-Anon tools will be very helpful, especially the Serenity Prayer and regarding the other person involved,

'You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you certainly can't cure it'.

My experience was that I had to stay clear of situations and people that were still toxic for me (I am not saying they were all toxic, just that I was not strong enough to deal with the issues they raised for me).

In some cases this separation proved permanent.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

I went through something similar several years ago and for me the biggest battle was what other people might be thinking of me as I discovered I was being represented badly all over the shop.For me, it was a battle of perspective and feeling out of control.

I think your chosen strategies sound great and you obviously know yourself well.

I wish you all strength in this recovery process and would like to try to encourage you by saying that time and distance have healed my wounds and I pray the same for you.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

I went through something similar several years ago and for me the biggest battle was what other people might be thinking of me as I discovered I was being represented badly all over the shop.For me, it was a battle of perspective and feeling out of control. (smip)

and would like to try to encourage you by saying that time and distance have healed my wounds and I pray the same for you.

This. Although I wouldn't say my wounds have healed, more scarred over. I still have some PTSD symptoms and I have to manage certain activities very carefully. But, yes, I have found a new and happy life.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

I'd like to say thank you for your contributions to Dimthing Tours. They're appreciated.

Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
You may even, in the long term [I'm thinking way ahead here, like several years], be able to add this situation into the Gratitude List - I know this seems unlikely from where you are now but it could happen.

I can vouch for this outcome; if someone had told me I'd be grateful someday for being stalked, I'd have called that person any number of rude names.

I've found it helpful in the past to sit down and make a list of things I've learned from a traumatic experience. I find it helps me focus on what I've gained even as I grieve the innocence and trust I've lost.

Plus chocolate - never underestimate the therapeutic powers of theobromine. [Biased]

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Thank you so much for your support and suggestions. You are all so helpful. I'm going to keep coming back and rereading what you all have said to remind myself of sanity. Thank you.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Resurrection follows the agony of the cross. There is new sweet pasture ahead to focus on.

As you learn more about human behaviour, you'll come to see that most of what people do is based on reaction and insecurity, coloured by social conditioning. We don't always or often know how our behaviour will impact on others. That's not an excuse, but for me it helps when releasing the pain and embracing forgiveness. That may not be possible some time soon.

[Votive]

may God's peace and strength be with you.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Having been badly let down, several years ago, by a significant figure in the church that we trusted, I recognise many of the feelings expressed in the OP. I can't offer specific advice, only that it does get better over time as you build your future; my responses included having someone close I could talk to, for as long as it took, enrolment on a theology course to put it all into perspective, and learning to be kind to myself, giving enough time to allow things to work through. It sounds like you are putting in place similar assistance, and I wish you well as you progress. [Votive]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

As someone who has been through being deceived in what I thought was a close relationship may I offer one other area I found helpful.

My big problem was how do you relate to anyone when you know you can be lied to like that. I had to find a way of allowing myself to respond to what a person was saying as "genuine" while at the same time holding my own reservations.

I actually found help with this in the most unexpected place, post-modern theory. This gave me the chance to believe that what people were on the whole trying to do was to give honest answers, but that those answers were constructed to take into consideration a whole lot of elements, some of which I was only dimly aware of or completely unaware of.

With my deceiver his notion of the truth relied more on his emotional impulses than on coherent world outlooks. He was therefore effectively living a double life (at least I hope it was double, but in these cases treble or more is not excluded, we are talking attempted bigamy). The lies were justified on the ground that they made his desire a reality.

That is the short story, the whole theory idea is complex and I am probably still a critical realist with the caveat that some parts of reality are almost purely social and therefore constructed and thus totally subject to discursive invention. Most of reality is a mixture between discursive invention and facticity.

Jengie

[eta realised I had not suggested a starting point, I think Ian Burkitts "Social Selves" is where I started]

[ 14. April 2014, 15:25: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Be kind to yourself, and treat yourself like someone who has just had a traumatic amputation of an arm or leg. The same level of shock, pain, and need for a total readjustment to the world. In particular, the same need for a lengthy (like, years) recovery period.

My Shipname was a result of going through a similar trauma to yours. If you are like me, this will have rocked your world or even shattered it into pieces. You will recover, but your new world will be more complex, and the way you interact with people, as Jengie says, will be more ... layered. The old immediate innocence will be gone, and you will be trying to reconcile hard-won experience with the need not to treat everyone you meet like they are total bastards from the first time they open their mouths. [Big Grin]

You'll manage it in the end, but it'll take years. So be nice to yourself, and don't expect a sudden recovery. (and do learn something about PTSD!)

Ultimately this kind of experience DOES add a lot to your toolkit for helping other people. Not that you're likely to appreciate it right now!

[Oh, and by the way--I know these kind of people, be prepared for several more levels of WTF? to be revealed over time. For two-three YEARS we were having new revelations pop up every six weeks or so, and every new thing we found out, we could only say WTF? and freak out. Ultimately that turned into WTF? and laughing, which is a Good Sign, and is what I hope for you in a while.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

There's spiritual craziness and personality craziness. It always helps me to locate the pathology where it actually resides. If it's in another then you have to label the person as disordered. Not troubled. Disordered and wilfully hurtful. It's the wilful part that always gets me.

(Otto cries a few magenta tears on the Bus for you, and offers a tambourine or flute, and suggests some more dancing. And raisins. And waffles. We got lots of stuff to keep you going!)

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Thanks again for all the replies. These are so rich, I am going to be studying over and over.

Lamb, the analogy to the traumatic amputation of a limb really resonates. "Google PTSD", here I come. Jengie Jon, one of my favorite movies is Memento, which shows me how we're all making up our stories as we go all the time, so I like your frame of reference -- and also how you, like me, find it useful in some ways and also don't enter fully into it. Raptor Eye, I calculate that I've endured 72 years worth of Lents in the years I've been enduring this in a spiritual wilderness, so I'm never going to have to observe Lent again -- I done my time! -- no, seriously, the point about Resurrection has really caught my attention to a whole new understanding.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

no prophet, someone else recently used the word "disordered" about this person. What does "disordered" mean beyond what "troubled" would mean about them?

(Otto, since Ios is unaccountably alive on the Mafia Dimthing Bus for Yet Another Day, let's celebrate! Double waffles and raisins for all!)

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
no prophet, someone else recently used the word "disordered" about this person. What does "disordered" mean beyond what "troubled" would mean about them?

I think of disordered to mean ill or sick in a way, but also not taking care of themself as normal people would tend to. Like having a bad cold, but sneezing and coughing on everyone, refusing to take medicine, get bed rest and otherwise be responsible. It's along the lines of "simply not right!" (which I have to type and say with a certain amount of indignation, hence the "!")

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Hugs and support. It sounds like you have a concrete plan. Good luck with it, and everything. And I agree, even though this situation doesn't specifically involve alcoholism, if you've been in a situation in the past that did, Al-anon will be a big help.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

Whenever I hear of situations like yours, I find myself thanking God that I can't be truly sympathetic because I've never been there.

What I can and will do is thank him again that it's almost behind you, and pray that it continues to be so.

And send a virtual hug. {{{AR}}} [Votive]

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

This comes from outside a faith perspective, and so may be worse than useless, but here goes:

Long ago & far away, I got deeply entangled in a relationship that was originally intended, or at least styled, as "therapeutic" in nature. No details here, but things went very, very wrong -- so much so that I "lost" myself through this other person's lies, deceit, disinformation, misrepresentation . . .

It took me years to recover sufficiently to take action. Ultimately, I did so, bringing a complaint against him to his professional body. That avenue may or may not be available to you (and/or your beliefs may obviate any possibility of taking action), but if action is an option, taking it can be helpful. It can be vindicating, at least to some small extent, to go through the steps of organizing & detailing just what happened, what the other party did, and when, and what effect that had. It can help one rise above the morass of poisonous feelings to create an orderly narrative of it, if only to explain to oneself how one could be so deceived. For one of the wounds of such a trauma (betrayal by another person) is an erosion of one's own trust in oneself. Detailing the narrative can help restore some of that lost trust.

No prophet's "disordered" is the right epithet for betrayals of this nature. While I don't know about the villain in your tragedy, I know the villain in mine got no reward I can begin to fathom or even imagine from his behavior; he was . . . simply disordered.

There are people in this world we're just unable to understand, and are perhaps better off for that inability.

With best hopes and wishes for the road ahead . . . expect a switchback or two (these roads are rarely straight), accept them, and keep going.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

That's a good idea (the documentation bit, in particular, I mean). In my own struggle I found it very useful to set down an orderly account of the whole mess, down to the last nasty detail--and NOT to re-read it. I typed with the monitor off. Basically I was emptying my head onto a computer screen.

That had a lot of uses--first the psychological one of getting it out, but also:

1. It gave me reliable documentation in case I needed it to refresh my memory on the facts in the future. Right now everything is doubtless WAY too clear, like broken glass cutting up your mind. But eventually merciful memory will dull those edges--or, God forbid, further gaslighting will ATTEMPT to reshape those memories. And you may need a reliable account some day (for example, if this person shows up as a new employee at your work and tries to repeat this pattern, God forbid).

2. If there was someone who needed the information, I could hand them the printout without having to verbally wade through the whole stinking mess again. This was useful when dealing with church officials charged with investigating, and it was also helpful when a sympathetic friend wanted to know why I was acting so shell-shocked--and I just wasn't up to yet another repetition.

If you do this, it's helpful to stick to "just the facts, Ma'am" as if you were giving a deposition in a law case. Pour the feelings out in a different file. That way if you ever do need to use the information, it's already in reasonable form and you don't need to fear coming off as an untrustworthy witness due to emotionality. Believe me, the plain facts will be unbelievable enough!

Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :

Ditto to this. I compiled a sizeable typed file itemizing my stalker's activities, complete with copies of any relevant correspondence. When the stalker called the police to my door on a fake complaint, or initiated a frivolous investigation through city bylaw enforcement, I simply handed over a copy of the file and eventually, that was that. Of course I updated the file after every incident.

We were eventually forced to move in a (successful) attempt to get away from the stalker, at which point I stuffed the file in a box, where it's stayed ever since. I don't plan to ever read it again, but don't think I can ever get rid of it. Just in case

[ 16. April 2014, 01:44: Message edited by: Meg the Red ]

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am getting and have many great supports in place. Thank you to the person who warned me the WTF moments would keep on coming, because, guess what, they started tonight. So although I was shocked, I was also prepared.

[ 20. April 2014, 02:40: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by EloiseA (# 18029) on :

More than 20 years ago, a friend of mine whom I shall call X met and married a man called D whom everyone liked and trusted. His FIL invited him to become a business partner, many of us took his advice on relationships, he encouraged us to deepen our faith and led Bible study groups in our homes.

Over time he confided in a few of us that our friend X was addicted to prescription medication and he was trying to get her professional help. She denied this and seemed hurt we would think such a thing. She told us once or twice that she was ‘inexplicably afraid’ of her husband D but that she had no reason to be, he behaved impeccably and had helped her confront her old demons of rejection/abandonment. As D became a closer friend within her family circle, she seemed to fade into the background.

Three years into the marriage our friend X was found dead in what was thought to be suicide by overdose. D, her husband was distraught and we all felt terribly sorry for him. Six weeks after X died, he announced his engagement to a much younger woman and told us he was emigrating. We thought this was some kind of emotional rebound and a hasty decision made in distress: we hoped he was not making a really bad mistake. He did not stay in touch once he had moved.

Recently, he was found guilty of the attempted murder of a young sex worker and the trial revealed he had a long history of assaults on women dating back to his early teens. For the first time, we began to wonder if X was murdered and there are certain details that indicate this is likely.

When you have lived with a seamless tissue of lies over many years, it is quite traumatic to realise what must have been happening behind closed doors. I feel haunted whenever I think of my friend and wish I could have done something. But he did nothing to arouse suspicion in anyone – his hidden aggression was perfectly compartmentalised -- and I have a terrible feeling that even X had no idea how dangerous he was until the end.

There was no way we could have known. This is what I struggle to accept and I will always wonder how many like him are wandering into people's lives and destroying them. It reminds me of the old liturgy mention of the noonday devils, 'those who wander the world for the ruin of souls'.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Well done Autenrieth Road - keep it up.

[Votive]

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

A dreadful story, Eloise A., one that leaves behind it 'if only's' and bad aftertastes that are best not dwelt on for too long.

Trust takes time to build up, but it can be destroyed in no time. Does it mean that we should never trust again? No, imv it means that we should give our trust but with awareness that it makes us vulnerable, that human beings all have failings (including us), and that still, small voices which nudge us and warn us should not be ignored. Only God can be trusted completely.

Welcome to the Ship, btw.

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

What a ghastly situation, Eloise.

Autenrieth Road, continued strength and comfort to you. [Votive]

Posted by EloiseA (# 18029) on :

Thank you Raptor Eye and Nenya and I hope I didn't depress you further, Autenrieth Road. I felt quite ill after posting because it is the first time I have put this experience into words.

I used to read crime fiction for pleasure and follow murder cases in tabloids. Now I know that violent death is much closer than we realise and naming or recognising anti-social disorders is so much harder to do in reality.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

EloiseA, thank you for posting. Words fail me. All I can think to say is, "I am so sorry." That feels dreadfully inadequate.

The WTFs are pouring in from every side. Last night in a completely different area of my life someone made a fake suicide threat to me. I didn't know this was a pretend game he's been flirting with for years. (That's not quite right somehow, as a way to describe it, because he is clearly in a dark and awful place. I don't know how better to describe it.) It was in a public place. I did the only thing I could think to do because he wouldn't stay and seemed quite credibly to be saying he was about to go home and kill himself: I screamed for help. I don't know if that makes any sense at all; I don't want to describe it more precisely. I was horribly upset afterwards. He texted a mutual friend later (he doesn't have my phone number; we only know each other from a mutual activity) to apologize for upsetting me. I told her "sorry doesn't even come close." I'll be happy if he never talks to me again.

And I'm finally waking up for my need for therapy to help me work out a new self-protective relationship with a close relative. Which is a good sign of growth, but it means a lot of turbulence ahead as I stand up to this person's nasty ways and change the way the relationship has always operated before.

I'm sick of people gaslighting me.

Thank you all so much for your kind words and your support.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

[Votive]

Continuing prayers for you AR. When we're turning to go in the right direction, an obstacle course is affirming.

Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :

AR, you have my prayers for strength on your journey toward healing, and my admiration for facing this mess head-on. Lady, you got guts. [Overused]

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Thanks.

Tonight I feel like I'm being backed by the diocesan officials, who are supposed to be helping with this, into a position where I am being asked to act in ways that in several ways violate my gut instincts about what is right.

As you can imagine, I'm more than a little resistant right now to acting against my gut instincts and my core values.

Fortunately I have a conversation planned for tomorrow with a wonderfully pastoral person who is my true local support in all this. If this is the way I need to act, I trust that this person will be able to explain it in a way that I come to understand it and will see how it actually does square with my core values.

This situation sucks in every possible direction.

[ 21. April 2014, 03:25: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

I hope you are able to stay strong and do what you think is right AR.

Sadly, based on my own experience the diocesan officials agenda is probably not truth, justice, or your well being as victim, but to protect the church from any scandal or disruption.

It is important to understand this as otherwise the original situation is compounded by a further sense of betrayal by the Church authorities.

I hope your officials support you in doing the right thing.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

[Votive]

AR. May you know light in your darkness.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Thyme, too true.

Thanks again to all for the prayers and support.

I have come up with a statement that I think is true to myself and in line with what the diocese is asking. However, I have come to realize that quite independent of what they're asking, that I am in conflict internally with two values of mine:

1. Help the group understand the lies and half-truths they have been told, and the abuses they have been subject to (so they're not left feeling somehow vaguely bad that certain things are OK, or even worse, their fault)

2. Not badmouth my co-leader to the group.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Wonderful Pastoral Support Person will call me this afternoon, hooray, and meet with the group for part of our meeting tonight, double triple quadruple hooray.

It is so helpful to me all your support advice and prayers. When I'm feeling overwhelmed I reread the whole thread and I get so much help clarity calmness and resolve from it. Thank you thank you.

[ 21. April 2014, 14:14: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Just had a very good conversation with a diocesan representative. Am in a much better place now. Grateful for feeling hope right now. (May not feel it later due to ongoing WTFs; grateful for just what is in the moment now.)

Thank you thank you thank you (I can't say it enough) for all your help support and prayers.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Aaaaaand... a fantastic conversation with local pastoral support person. They're brilliant. They really know the details and history and impact of all these events and are fully committed to finding the right path. Which may still be complicated and painful and messy, but with LPSP on board, there is real hope.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

[Votive]

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0