|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Funeral wishes
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
A lovely old lady from my church has died after a long and fulfilling life. Until about a year ago she attended church regularly, but age and infirmity saw her move into a nursing home. Our minister visited her and brought her communion when he was able. I visited regularly and she often talked about how she wanted her funeral to be. She very much wished for the full requiem mass with the choir present at our church (she always loved the choir and had been a singer in her youth). We never saw any of her family however. Now I find that the family has decided to hold the service in a funeral home without any religious service at all. I feel very distressed about this and I know she would have been most unhappy. Unfortunately she hadn't told the priest of her final wishes, but even if she had I'm wondering if the family would have listened. I will go to the service, but it all feels so wrong.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Something we often tell people in this situation is that it is possible to have more than one service. We do this particularly when there is a geographical problem (died in Vietnam) or when there is a conflict of faiths (person who died was a Christian, most of family is insisting on Buddhist funeral). If you feel strongly enough about the lady's wishes, would you want to arrange such a memorial service yourself? Whether to notify the family of it would be a judgement call, of course, but it's not strictly necessary.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
This is also why people should carefully write out their funeral wishes and leave them with their church as well as with their executors. In this particular case, could you not speak with the cleric and choirmaster about having your former-chorister friend commemorated with an anthem, perhaps at evensong? Or perhaps one of the weekday eucharists with memorial/requiem prayers could be attended by her friends and, should they be interested, family members?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
I have know of occasions where the family has not contacted the church or been willing to speak to them, so that no-one in the congregation even knows the date and venue of any Commemoration or service - very distressing to those who counted the deceased as their friend.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Bib
For historic reasons, Dissenting congregations in England has long held Memorial Services which were times for the congregation to grieve and give thanks for the departed that was not the actual funeral.
Today for the majority of members it no longer happens but it does when there are a large number of people who cannot attend the funeral or for some reason the congregation is excluded from a funeral. (One very senior elder in my home congregation specified "No Funeral" so we held a memorial service instead).
I suggest that you approach your vicar with a request that he holds a memorial mass for this lady. If only because a community needs the opportunity to grieve.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
I can't believe I am saying this, but I think in this case it would be perfectly appropriate for the church to comply with the person's wishes and offer the full requiem anyway.
I do think that I would do the following (although I do keep in mind that I am far removed from the situation and am not in a great position to offer advice...in Ship fashion, I do it anyway)
- attend the family's funeral
- warmly speak of your relationship through church
- drop in conversation that the church will hold prayers (yes, I'd probably phrase it like this, and would call it a requiem, not a funeral) for its former faithful member, as is normal practice, and that this service will take place in a month or so (I think there should be a space, so that it doesn't seem that you are trying to "upstage" the family's funeral)
-I wouldn't phrase it as a request, but rather as a "We're going to..." I'd find the most receptive-seeming person at the family's funeral. There has to be somebody who knows of the late woman's church devotion.
- let them know that you will, of course, let one of them know when this service will take place once it is scheduled, and that they are more than welcome to join, and to invite whomever they wish
Hopefully they will just think this is normal, and go with the flow. If they take issue, then I'd do what was suggested upthread: memorialize at a weekday liturgy. There is nothing to stop you from remembering and praying for somebody who was a faithful church member. She would have wanted it.
Sometimes long-lapsed church attendees do not realize the depth of devotion that their parents had to the church, and the depth of care which the church members will lavish upon them (the family) at the funeral. I think it is very important that the church is well-represented at the family's funeral, but not overbearing.
[ 05. May 2014, 00:28: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. Hopefully the church can in some way carry out the lady's wishes even if it won't be at her funeral but at a later date.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Our church did just this for a former choir member. His family wouldn't have understood the idea of a requiem mass, so it was held later, several days after the funeral, but with their blessing (which is an important consideration).
I found it difficult attending a funeral of another former choir member, who had told me she didn't want her own parish priest taking the service, but a named priest from a different church. Of course, with this never having been written down, her wishes were not carried out. I guess though, ultimately, none of that matters the other side of death, it is for the still-living to come to terms with. (Although I did fondly imagine her turning in her grave and sending out sparks of voodoo retaliation! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
My Dad was a minister, but didn't much care for their present Minister. So, when he was dying he said "Make sure xx doesn't take my funeral".
Hmmmm - that wasn't an easy conversation to have! I asked a lifelong family friend to do it and worded it that way. When it was Mum's turn she said the same, so I had to have a similar conversation again ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
|
Posted
It can be quite difficult when the dead person's wishes aren't actually written down - my dad said that he wanted to "go out" in his St. John uniform under the St. John flag and his uniform cap, but hadn't told my stepmother - thankfully, she agreed to it and we even managed a St. John guard of honour at the Chapel of Rest.
In another case, my lace teacher had always said that she was leaving her lace equipment to me and another of her pupils - but hadn't told her family. Thankfully, I know her son, and he accepted that my friend and I would know how best to deal with the bobbins, lace, and other items and we were able to find good homes for all of it. We felt she would have approved of how we dispersed the items.
--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
|
Posted
My mother's funeral instructions were pinned up in her bedroom after she had been to several funerals that she felt didn't reflect the wishes of the deceased. As none of the rest of the family were churchgoers she kept me up to date with the hymns she wanted (which varied from time to time). She didn't specify the music she wanted for the end when the coffin is carried out, but all of us agreed on "Into the West" as she had been an avid reader of Tolkein and a great fan of Peter Jackson's films.
Huia
--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I think it's still the case in English law that the deceased's wishes can't legally be enforced, and that all there is, is a "duty of disposal" that falls on the next-of-kin (which itself is a fuzzier concept than many people think). I have heard of people making a certain provision in their will dependent on their funeral wishes being carried out, but I suspect such a thing could be open to legal challenge. It's sad when the family don't know what a person wanted. Sadder still when they do know and opt for something easier and cheaper anyway - which I've known happen several times.
The beauty of a traditional requiem is that the deceased need not physically be present; and it's something that their Church family will appreciate and understand.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
|
Posted
We attended Mr Marzipan's grandad's funeral about a year ago. He had an arrangement with the undertakers where all the arrangements and details were decided and paid for in advance - this had been organised a few years back. Presumably that's the best way to make sure all your wishes are held to (even the hymns etc were chosen in advance)
--------------------
formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
Mr P has said that he does not want a funeral at all - just to be disposed of as simply as possible. But, if he does die first, I know that I am going to want a church service to mark his death. It will be tricky to balance the desires of the deceased with the needs of the living. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
My mother died after a longish bout with cancer, and after her husband/my father had died. She had actually emigrated four times, and had no relatives anywhere near geographically. Plus, her family had gone from RC to Lutheran to Orthodox to Anglican (that would be her) and had little patience for most of that. So she didn't want a funeral.
But then she did say "I suppose you will have a funeral anyway" to which I replied "It would be what this community expects" - a line which she supported - so she said "Well, in that case, there are a couple of hymns I would like sung".
So a good funeral. But no interment, unlike my father - her ashes are somewhere above the tree line above Lienz.
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
|
Posted
quote:
posted by Joanna P:
It will be tricky to balance the desires of the deceased with the needs of the living.
This. Oh so much this.
My mother died just about a year ago. Neither she nor my father had or have the slightest interest in God/Christ/any kind of religious affiliation or faith. A number of years previously they went to the funeral of a old friend which was taken by a humanist, and thought it was a wonderful, gracious, humourous etc etc way of remembering him/marking his passing.
So when mum died, there was no way there was going to be any Christian funeral. She certainly didn't want it. My father certainly didn't want (and I quote) "Some bloke with his collar turned round the wrong way who didn't know her saying what a wonderful woman she was." Or that she'd "gone to a better place." And so there was to be a humanist funeral. The irony that in the desire to escape from an unknown priest taking a service for someone they didn't know meant that we had a humanist "minister" taking a service and speaking (albeit very briefly) about someone they didn't know seemed to escape my father, but not me.
And me? I hated it. I hated not having any prayers, not being able to commend my mother to God formally, no scripture, no hymns - nothing that was in any way meaningful to me. Sure, the humanist (in talking with us in the planning stage) graciously acknowledged that there might be some people there who might want to pray as the coffin was taken from view, and so we should leave space for that, though it may well have been covered by music - I don't remember. And yes, I prayed at that point. But even so.
And I know that if I were to ask, my local clergy would be only too happy to help me put together something that would meet my need for a more formal acknowledgement/committal of my mother to God. But I'm still struggling with the "she didn't want it vs it's what I (think I may) need...."
So how much is about the desires of the deceased and the needs of the living? To be fair, my mother's desires and my father's desires coincided on this, and it didn't seem right or appropriate to make a big deal of my preferences. But I am, in a manner of speaking, the white sheep of my immediate family. But when my father dies - what then? He doesn't want a Christian funeral - to him it's hypocritical. My sibling has no apparent faith or interest in any faith. But it leaves me with the same tensions and conflicting what I want/need vs what he wants as I've still got with my mother.
Or when I go? I want a Christian funeral; I want my soul and my body to be committed to God. And I find the idea that they might not be absolutely devastating. But that would be a rite that seemingly means nothing to the rest of my immediate family. How does one resolve these things?
[ 08. May 2014, 23:55: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Or when I go? I want a Christian funeral; I want my soul and my body to be committed to God. And I find the idea that they might not be absolutely devastating. But that would be a rite that seemingly means nothing to the rest of my immediate family. How does one resolve these things?
Let your family know how important it is to you. Then let your church friends know, and inform them that they may be needed to step up to the plate in the event your family doesn't.
As for your parents, you probably aren't the only person in their life who is a practicing Christian. You could ask your minister to hold a small memorial service, perhaps before or after the humanist one. If you have a connection to one of their friends, you could put the message out through word of mouth.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
I church I used to be at we had a couple who were in a second marriage. Her son was not happy with this marriage.
The husband died first wife had the full church service etc. later when the wife died, her community were waiting for funeral details. However, her son took her back to his home town and had a funeral to which no one as invited or even told when it was. We heard later that it was a basic crem funeral no hymns etc and then ashes buried with her first husband.
Her community and her second husband family were quite deliberately excluded.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
|
Posted
Having taken around 3 years to get my head around seriously updating my will I am bracing myself for doing a funeral plan (both with the co-op). I don't plan to be needing it soon, but it will save a lot of worry for those I leave behind - any family that I have are not believers but thankfully enough of them would respect my wishes for it to be done my way (not sure I'll go for the glass-sided horse-drawn hearse that I saw this morning).
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
It's a great shame when friends or family members are excluded from the funeral of someone they loved. A lady I knew would like her funeral in the local church was whisked away by the family and nobody was told of the funeral arrangements.
The funeral is for both the deceased and the mourners imv. If the deceased didn't leave instructions, the chief mourners can do as they wish. I've told my family that it's up to them, but if I don't get a Christian funeral they're in for a haunting.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
...(not sure I'll go for the glass-sided horse-drawn hearse that I saw this morning).
But just imagine the yards and yards of black crepe around every lamp-post on the route - and Little Oliver dressed in black with a black topper leading the courtege!
I'm leaving my body to the local medical college but the paperwork to do so is immense! It all has to be on Stamp Paper and notarised and signed by all sorts of folks. Any bits left will be burnt and then Himself and family can put them in the river where we put some of my dad's ashes after he died.
--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
|
Posted
A difficult one, this.
If the deceased was definitely not a person of faith, it seems that to have a Christian funeral service is not being true to their beliefs, and yet those who are left may need the comfort of the Christian funeral service as part of their grieving.
Most ministers would be happy to pray with the bereaved, and I (for one) would be more than willing to say some more formal prayers in church, perhaps with a photograph of the deceased as a focus and based very firmly on the funeral service. Or any other combination of prayers which may be suitable after consultation with the bereaved.
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
My next door neighbour immolated himself in a house fire a few years back†; his disapproving sister provided him with a basic crematorium service where she lives, some distance away, without informing anyone locally*. He was known at the church and in the local community and we did seriously think about a church service for locals.
* She did precisely zero about sorting his flat out - the landlord's agents tossed the lot into a skip, including medals from the first Gulf War.
† I called the fire brigade and ended up dealing with the police and fire for what felt like hours.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
