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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Libel
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I have been accused of libel on the TICTH thread. I'm going through my post paragraph by paragraph, but perhaps the Admins want to pull my original post? I don't want to cause trouble for the Ship.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I am not a lawyer. But, given that there are plenty of reports on the public record it doesn't appear that there is anything there that might be libelous. There are others within the H&As with more legal background, and if they suggest caution we may still edit your post.
Note that I've also requested that further posts linking to yet more reports are not needed, especially on a thread of short rants and irritations.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thank you. I have a Scots Law degree, and honestly did not believe that rant to have been libellous, at least not within Scotland. But I appreciate that the law varies from country to country and the Ship cannot take any chances.
If I have created a problem, I apologise.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's worth pointing out that it wasn't any of the Hosts or Admins who suggested libel.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And don't forget that even though some matter may have been published in a newspaper does not mean, at least here, that you may yourself be liable for a republication.
As for publication of court proceedings, you may not be liable for a fair report. A plaintiff may overcome that defence if, and only if, the plaintiff proves that the defamatory matter was not published honestly for the information of the public or the advancement of education. But again that is here, and the law in Scotland or any of the many other places where the Ship is published may well be different.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I stuck to stuff that had been broadcast as news by the BBC rather than newspaper reports, some of which were a lot less circumspect.
There's a summary of the whole sorry tale on the Scottish government website. Presumably it can never be libellous to repeat information available on a government website?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It's the republication of defamatory material which could make you liable here, whether it's from a newspaper or the BBC.
As to the Govt website, I gather that again it would not be defamatory if it's a fair report*. Of course, there can always be debate about what's fair and what's not.
To me, this shows the difficulties hosts and admins have with defamation, when the Ship is read in so many countries and with so many different defamation laws - probably 51, all different in the US alone. There is good authority here that a publication over the net occurs when a person opens a website and reads, no matter where the material was entered or where all the servers and so forth are.
*This depends on some rather convoluted definitions of what constitutes "proceedings" and as it's not an area I've ever practised in I would not like to hazard guess.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
It's the republication of defamatory material which could make you liable here, whether it's from a newspaper or the BBC.
As to the Govt website, I gather that again it would not be defamatory if it's a fair report*. Of course, there can always be debate about what's fair and what's not.
To me, this shows the difficulties hosts and admins have with defamation, when the Ship is read in so many countries and with so many different defamation laws - probably 51, all different in the US alone. There is good authority here that a publication over the net occurs when a person opens a website and reads, no matter where the material was entered or where all the servers and so forth are.
*This depends on some rather convoluted definitions of what constitutes "proceedings" and as it's not an area I've ever practised in I would not like to hazard guess.
The bit about alleged snogging is clearly the repetition of a defamation of character.
I'd be very careful here. Sir Ian's son is Craig Oliver, special adviser to the PM and successor to Andy Coulson.
Does Simon know what's going on here? He really should be consulted. At the very least, take down the offending material pronto. Even if not libellous, only a court can determine that, its disgusting to make such comments against an honourable man some 16 years after the alleged events and against the context of the recent apparent drug related death of a 17 year old girl. Get a grip.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The Hosts and Admins get to make the call on what we consider to be, potentially, libel. If someone is concerned that a post might be pushing the boundary of what is safe here, then of course we appreciate a private heads up (PM a host or admin, or send an email to the admins).
To see something posted that you object to and then post "that's libel, delete it" is junior hosting at best, bullying at worst. Let the Hosts do their job.
[just to make it clear that I'm posting as an Admin]
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
[ 04. February 2014, 09:44: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
[QUOTE] Even if not libellous, only a court can determine that, its disgusting to make such comments against an honourable man some 16 years after the alleged events and against the context of the recent apparent drug related death of a 17 year old girl.
It may be disgusting (in your opinion) but not against any of the commandments. You've made some pretty disgusting comments in Hell yourself.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I'm happy for the Ship to remove any part, or all, of my post.
The "alleged snogging" was photographed by a journalist at the time.
I apologise for offending you, Francophile. For what it's worth, I lived in the area at the time. I may have walked within 100ft of Scott's body, with my children (I don't think it's ever been established exactly when it was dumped.) I definitely drove within a couple of hundred feet of it, earlier in the day he was discovered. The shrubbery he was dumped in, though in the middle of Aberdeen University campus, is a bit tucked away - I'd previously used it as an ideal spot for my 3 year old to pee if he needed to. Afterwards I had nightmares about what would have happened if my son had needed a pee the day we walked past.
I do genuinely feel physically sick when I hear Ian Oliver's voice on the radio. Hence the rant in the immediate aftermath of hearing him on the radio.
I apologise to the Ship if my rant has caused any problems.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Sir Ian's son is Craig Oliver, special adviser to the PM and successor to Andy Coulson.
And Scott Simpson's parents were Dennis Simpson, incompetent housebreaker and frequent guest of Her Majesty at HMP Craiginches, and Patsy Simpson, a woman well known for her kindness and love of babies.
Your point is?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm happy for the Ship to remove any part, or all, of my post.
The "alleged snogging" was photographed by a journalist at the time.
I apologise for offending you, Francophile. For what it's worth, I lived in the area at the time. I may have walked within 100ft of Scott's body, with my children (I don't think it's ever been established exactly when it was dumped.) I definitely drove within a couple of hundred feet of it, earlier in the day he was discovered. The shrubbery he was dumped in, though in the middle of Aberdeen University campus, is a bit tucked away - I'd previously used it as an ideal spot for my 3 year old to pee if he needed to. Afterwards I had nightmares about what would have happened if my son had needed a pee the day we walked past.
I do genuinely feel physically sick when I hear Ian Oliver's voice on the radio. Hence the rant in the immediate aftermath of hearing him on the radio.
I apologise to the Ship if my rant has caused any problems.
Its not me you've offended, but potentially the family, school and community of a 17 year old girl from the central belt of Scotland who died at the weekend following an apparent (and I stress apparent) drug-related incident.
Dr Oliver is a recognised (by the UN) world expert on the misuse of drugs. His work has saved countless lives in the last 30 or so years. He accepted an invitation to speak on BBC Radio Scotland's breakfast need programme on Monday morning on the subject of how Scottish parents can keep their youngsters safe in the drug-infested environment in which they live and socialise. His words and advice to parents will have saved scores of lives.
Instead of being grateful to Dr Oliver, you choose to denigrate the man, including bringing up a horrendous murder from 2 decades ago where it is acknowledged that errors were made by Dr Oliver's then force, Grampian Police. These were gross errors, admittedly. Nobody acted maliciously or in bad faith (apart from wee Scott's killer).
Dont you think you owe Dr Oliver an apology in this public forum for your gross ingratitude and discourtesy towards him?
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Its not me you've offended, but potentially the family, school and community of a 17 year old girl from the central belt of Scotland who died at the weekend following an apparent (and I stress apparent) drug-related incident.
I really don't see how my post can be regarded as having done that. If it did, I'm sorry. But I made no reference whatsoever to that girl.
quote:
He accepted an invitation to speak on BBC Radio Scotland's breakfast need programme on Monday morning on the subject of how Scottish parents can keep their youngsters safe in the drug-infested environment in which they live and socialise. His words and advice to parents will have saved scores of lives.
Mebbes aye, mebbes naw.* He's not the only expert on drugs available to talk on radio. And it was a debate, with another speaker putting a diametrically opposite view on how to keep kids safe from drugs. Radio Scotland weren't presenting him as giving inerrant advice. More "here are two opinions, parents can make up their own mind."
quote:
Dont you think you owe Dr Oliver an apology in this public forum for your gross ingratitude and discourtesy towards him?
My gross ingratitude? Why should I be grateful to him, exactly?
(*Scottish. Means "perhaps" but said cynically. Can't think of an exact equivalent term.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
OK, we're now straying from "Ships business". I would suggest that given the tone of the last couple of posts you continue in Hell. On a new thread, not TICTH.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, we're now straying from "Ships business". I would suggest that given the tone of the last couple of posts you continue in Hell. On a new thread, not TICTH.
I'm done. You can all abuse me to your heart's content on Hell. Great fun.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I've just been defending my TICTH post. I have no wish to continue this if Francophile's done with it.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I've just been defending my TICTH post. I have no wish to continue this if Francophile's done with it.
I'm done.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Alan, I apologise if I offended. The point I was trying to make was the extreme difficulty hosts and admins have in this area. No comment at all on whether the material may be defamatory or not.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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