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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tungolcraeft
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Motylos
Apprentice
# 18216
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Posted
Tungolcraeft — a word I came across for the first time yesterday — is the Old English or Anglo-Saxon word for ‘astronomy’ or ‘astrology’. It lasted into Middle English as Tungolcraft, and comes from OE/AS tungol (‘planet, star’) + craeft (‘craft, art, praxis’). It has various other specific forms. It made me think about words we have lost and gained, as well as words we have adapted in our journey of language. As Christians we follow the ‘Way’ of the Logos, often translated ‘Word’, but a translation that limits its meaning. So I propose this thread as a way of ‘tungol crafting’ — searching for galaxies of meanings and symbols of significance in our linguistic inheritance. Share a word that excites you because of its sound, history, meaning, theology or whatever else. Intrigue and illuminate.
[edited thread title for code]
[ 05. October 2014, 20:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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“Too often we assume that the light on the wall is god, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search.”
G’Kar, ‘Meditations on the Abyss’
Posts: 31 | From: Kernow | Registered: Sep 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Interesting ideas, and could lead to a good discussion. FYI: it might be that a Host/Admin will come along and move this to the Heaven board--Purg is more for robust debates.
Tungolkraeft. Good word.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Motylos, welcome to the Ship!
Please take the time to check out our Ten Commandments and various board Guidelines. Speaking of which, I'm wondering whether this topic is not more suited for Heaven than Purgatory, but we'll leave it a while to see how it develops.
Feel free to post a hello on the Welcome Aboard thread in All Saints, and enjoy sailing with us.
Eutychus
Purgatory Host
[x-post with GK]
[ 05. October 2014, 20:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Fortnight. A nice English word that you don't hear much no more.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Fortnight. A nice English word that you don't hear much no more.
You hear it all the time in the UK. Sennight is more or less obsolete, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
9 day fortnight is a recognised working pattern over here.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
From my Anglo/Saxon dictionary, there was the distinction between the onomy and the ology, even back then, but I can't access it at the moment. My favourite word from back then is bookhoard for library. (Haven't spelled it properly.)
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I lived in Ireland, I learned the saying, "A Belfast fortnight is six weeks long." This applies to estimates of how long it will take to get a certain piece of work done.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Fortnight. A nice English word that you don't hear much no more.
You hear it all the time in the UK. Sennight is more or less obsolete, though.
Interesting, though, that seventy is pronounced sennty by many Welsh people.
I haven't heard of tungolcraft - it's a good non-classical alternative to astronomy, and tungolcraft was a part of clerical training many centuries ago - you had to be able to know when it was Easter.
The Greek ouranois means heavens, but can also mean sky or atmosphere or air: the birds of the ouranois; a cloud in the ouranois; our Father who art in the ouranois. The Greek doesn't have different words. God really is a sky daddy in the gospels.
Hodos means way or path or road. When we hear 'I am the way' I think we often interpret it as 'I am the method', rather than I am the path.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Motylos
Apprentice
# 18216
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Posted
Yes, Penny — ‘tungolcræftwíse’ and ‘tungolæ’ for the ‘-onomy’ and ‘tungolæ scream’ for the ‘-ology’!
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“Too often we assume that the light on the wall is god, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search.”
G’Kar, ‘Meditations on the Abyss’
Posts: 31 | From: Kernow | Registered: Sep 2014
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Motylos
Apprentice
# 18216
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Posted
Penny, I am not sure where the ‘scream’ came from. tungolgescread for the -ology!
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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“Too often we assume that the light on the wall is god, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search.”
G’Kar, ‘Meditations on the Abyss’
Posts: 31 | From: Kernow | Registered: Sep 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
A word I miss in standard English is 'mardy'. The dictionaries usually define it as meaning 'sulky' or 'moody', but to me it conveys not just that, but being precious about it at the same time.
Another word which I think it is a pity has gone out of ordinary conversational use, is 'sojourn'. Everyone knows what it means. It was slightly old fashioned 50 years ago, but now has definitely faded into being an antique. It's got slightly more intention about it than 'stay'.
[ 05. October 2014, 21:59: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Mardy is pretty much standard English in the Lincolnshire/Notts area where many of Mrs Sioni's family live, and it does have that precious, drama llama element about it.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:
Penny, I am not sure where the ‘scream’ came from.
tungolæ scream is what you get when you mix tungols into milk fat and sugar and then freeze it.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Fortnight is a standard word here - one you hear every day of the week.....
Mardy is a good find, thank you. I can remember a Punch item 40 years or more ago, with a list of words on a new planet. One was used to describe the feelings of a boy before he first kissed his first girl - an emotion for which there really is no English word.
[ 05. October 2014, 22:50: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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fullgospel
Shipmate
# 18233
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Posted
A good thread -a good start on board too ! Welcome.
Yes words can sound good, have good meanings or uses, or look good. Or just have associations or an atmosphere almost like memory that just moves to us, or gets to somewhere within.
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on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
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fullgospel
Shipmate
# 18233
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Posted
I meant to say Motylos.
Rammikins I like: sound, look and meaning. So comforting in the kitchen of my mind.
ingle-nook is another.
Tontine a word to conjor with, but bak managers are no more.
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on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There's an inglenook in a Bath teashop
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
And lo, to Heaven with you!
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There was also steorwiglung for astrology. What I don't like about my dictionary is that I can't look up modern words in it, but only the A/S words, so it's a bit of a rummage. What I do like is that by so rummaging, a picture of life before the conquest arises that otherwise might not have occurred, with a greater sophistication of thought than the view of history where the Normans civilised the barbarians allowed for. I can't find an example at the moment! I can find where Tolkien found some of his words, of course. Smeagol, and Isengard, for example.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Some commented that the US tennis player, Mardy Fish, sounds like the successor to Angry Birds.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Mardy is pretty much standard English in the Lincolnshire/Notts area where many of Mrs Sioni's family live, and it does have that precious, drama llama element about it.
Well into Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Staffordshire as well. Along with mardy you have local words such as scrating (scray-tin, not scrat-in) for crying, be-ailin for bawling/wailing, chuntering for complaining, mithering for annoying and rather appropriately for the ship when you are being mardy you are said to have a "monk-on".
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Mardy is also a place in Abergavenny. For some reason the Knotweed refused to pose with the sign...
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
For my part, I pauchle a lot, and whiles I blether, but rarely greet. If it's a brave day, I'll take a dander and get the messages, but if it dreich or dowie, no. The day, I'm sat happed to the lugs for the boiler's banjaxed and the chiel's no coming to futter with it til this afternoon.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I can see you're as every bit as thrawn as I am.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Some commented that the US tennis player, Mardy Fish, sounds like the successor to Angry Birds.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
North American shipmates will doubtless be aware that to UK people, having someone called Randy is really odd.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
Reminds me of when I used to work for a rock climbing magazine. I used the term "thrutchy" to describe a particular route which was perfectly understandable to anyone who climbs in the Peak District but was gobbledegook outside Derbys/S.Yorks. Thrutching is a particular kind of straining from the abdomen, such as when on the lavatory or trying to reach upwards without peeling away from a precarious foothold while buttocks are firmly clenched.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
I like and quite often use the word shemozzle (a messy situation), which has a Yiddish origin. I can't remember if I learnt it off my parents or somewhere else, and I don't know how it became popularised in Australia. Just did a bit of research and the first recorded usage in English is in Britain in 1899. Here it is often used by politicians and the media to criticize the messes made by the government or big organisations, but can also be used for everyday messy situations.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Just searched the Australian newspaper archives and found shemozzle being used in reference to horse racing, I think the context being someone having a run of bad luck. And it's from 28 June 1888 in a paper called 'The Sydney Referee'. The paper wants to see "Mr Dukin's luck change. His shemozzle has been long enough"
And even better another article in the same paper from 4 December 1889 "The Shindy" about a fist fight explains the word 'shemozzle' and it's origins more. It used to mean luck here and was used by Yiddish bookmakers, but already at this time was been used in the US to refer to a fight.
Although the 'yankee' writing the article, had only used the luck meaning personally.
The links are here if you want to read the articles.
The Shindy
and
'What the Referee Would Like to See'
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Sorry for the triple post but just realised the article 'The Shindy' was referencing an event in England as told in 'The London Sportsman' so 'shemozzle' must have been in use there by 1889 at least. Shouldn't be posting so late at night.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
I wonder if there is a word "mank"? I often hear of things being manky, in other words a bit dirty and somewhat second best, but if that is an adjective, what is the noun?
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I'm not sure there is a noun. But its close relative "ming" can be used as a verb "I ming, you ming, he mings..." and a noun "he's a real minger". But as an adjective...I guess minging does it.
I'm from the SE, and had not heard 'ming' until associating with folks from NI 25 years ago. These days, it's common in NW England too.
[ 06. October 2014, 17:53: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
I wonder if there is a word "mank"? I often hear of things being manky, in other words a bit dirty and somewhat second best, but if that is an adjective, what is the noun?
Manking about is used in a similar manner to larking about. You can also have a mank, meaning playing a practical joke. Could be related but it seems a bit of a stretch.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
Mardy is a popular enough word in the north of England to have its own song (by Sheffield band Arctic Monkeys).
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
We used to say mardy and nesh to mean soft, and this was on the Lancs/Yorks border, so maybe they were used in both. You also used to hear 'mard'. We used to say skrikin for crying. Oh hell, they're all coming back now.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I know a born-and-bred Londoner who uses 'mardy' all the time. I'd never heard the word before I met him, but it's a useful little word to deploy on occasion.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Petrichor. The smell of earth after rain. I got this from a Doctor Who episode and was thrilled to discover it was a real word and hadn't been invented for the programme!
Which reminds me - a favourite teacher introduced me to the lovely word 'Gallimaufry' which sounds like it should also be from Doctor Who, but isn't. It means a random collection of things.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
Mili, I suspect schemozzle has it's origins in "Schlamassel", which is Yiddish for bad luck. I've also heard "Schlamassel" used by Germans referring to something that's a bit of a dog's breakfast.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
We spell it "schmozzle", and means a disorganized hassle situation. Kibbitz means to be very silly in an annoying way, kids commonly kibbitz so much that they create a schmozzle.
We didn't think these were Yiddish, we thought they were Frisian, that sort of Dutch-German fusion. Lakka-lakka which means "tastes good", similar to the Dutch lekker is another from the same area, though always said twice.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
prophet: Frisian, that sort of Dutch-German fusion
More of a Dutch-Anglo fusion.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
I wonder if there is a word "mank"? I often hear of things being manky, in other words a bit dirty and somewhat second best, but if that is an adjective, what is the noun?
I use mank as a noun, as in "Oh yuck, I've stepped in something nasty and now my foot is covered in mank". I looked it up in the full OED (I'm at work and can acccess is) and discovered that as a noun, mank can officially mean a blood disorder, a practical joke or a flaw, none of which are what I mean by mank. I guess I mean "nasty stuff, probably slimy or smelly or both".
Manky as an adjective is also there. Apparently it either means naughty or "Bad, inferior, defective; dirty, disgusting, unpleasant". I guess this latter definition is what I would use, but would tend to be implying " dirty, disgusting, unpleasant, slimy, smelly" rather than generally bad or inferior.
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
A friend of ours in Orkney uses the word "tarf" to mean wet, windy weather; I think it covers weather that's worse than "dreich" but not as bad as "coorse" [coarse], which means really stormy*.
We've asked various other Orcadians if they've come across the term, but we're gradually coming to the conclusion that it's just him.
* Of course it's all relative: what a soft Southerner would call "stormy" an Orcadian would probably call "a bit breezy". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Ah, one of those words would probably describe our last day in Orkney the other week, when we couldn't go to Skara Brae because the sea was breaking over the cliffs and the guides could not stay vertical on the narrow paths above the holes down into the houses because of the wind. (We had to make do with a replica house by the visitor centre.) Not sure which would apply, though.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
prophet: Frisian, that sort of Dutch-German fusion
More of a Dutch-Anglo fusion.
That's interesting. My father's family originated where Germany, Netherlands and France have all owned the territory. There was a rumour of an English midlands coal miner of ill repute in two countries who could be responsible from the 1870s. The one who uses these word is my father's cousin who speaks German and and some form of Frisian. No English for him.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
no prophet: My father's family originated where Germany, Netherlands and France have all owned the territory. There was a rumour of an English midlands coal miner of ill repute in two countries who could be responsible from the 1870s. The one who uses these word is my father's cousin who speaks German and and some form of Frisian. No English for him.
This is interesting, but I'm trying to process your information. "Where Germany, Netherlands and France have all owned the territory", where would that be? The coal miner was responsible for what? And what is his connection with these words?
The Frisian language is normally located somewhere between Dutch and English (or better put, the Anglo- part of English). I remember people telling me there are quite a number of Frisian words that correspond with English. I don't recall which words, I'll try to look them up.
The language I grew up in, Lower Saxonic, is between Dutch and German.
The words schmozzle and kibbitz don't seem Frisian to me. Indeed, they feel very Yiddish.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
... the guides could not stay vertical on the narrow paths above the holes down into the houses because of the wind ... Not sure which would apply, though.
If the guides couldn't stay vertical, that's coorse. Verging on right coorse, in fact. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
Bring back dustsceawung an Anglo-Saxon word for contemplating the dust. Useful both when housework is overdue or when one is most aware of the transitory nature of life.
Algebraic Geometry (not often mentioned on SoF) uses the word 'syzygy' taken from astronomy. I've never had occasion to use it .... alas.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I love the West Country term "grockle", as a derogatory word for tourists.
Down in Cornwall, they use the term "emmet", which means "ant". But they be furreners down there, so we don't pay any attention to 'em....
When I was growing up, it was common practice to use the word "pikey" for the local gypsy communities. As far as I can remember, it didn't have quite the same pejorative meaning that it now does.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Doesn't the Isle of Wight have "overners" for people "over the waters", i.e. on the mainland?
Or is it used for former mainland-dwellers who have moved to the Isle?
[ 09. October 2014, 18:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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