Thread: Church Times top 100 christian books Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
Recently, the Anglican magazine, the Church Times published its list of the top 100 christian books of all time. As one might expect from an Anglican magazine where the chairman of the judges admits
quote:
The panel was mainly, but not exclusively, Anglican.
one cannot help but note certain biases.

There are a great many books there whose inclusion could be considered predictable (Augustine's Confessions were bound to be in there somewhere, as was Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship). There are quite a few I've never heard of. There are also some surprises. e.g. given one of the criteria was "lasting significance" then to see N.T. Wright's Paul and the Faithfulness of God, published only a year ago, make its inclusion in the top 100 questionable (though, having read it, it may well come to have a lasting impact, but I'm not sure that that's been proved yet).

Given that same criteria, there are arguments for some of the really big works of christian literature which have an influence but which the average christian probably hasn't read cover to cover. So I welcome the inclusion of Summa Theologica and Church Dogmatics but it seems like Calvin's Institutes is a glaring omission. And what about the Desert Fathers?

Having recently read Julian of Norwich's Revelations of Divine Love I was quite underwhelmed so was surprised to see it in the top 5.

So what other titles might you include and what might you leave out? What might you demote and what might you promote?
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Glad to see at least one book from Liberation Theology in there.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
There are rather a lot of books that were written in the late sixties and early seventies. I'm sure it's a coincidence that many of the judges would have been in their formative years at that time.

I don't know about top ten books necessarily, but I'd certainly say that Revelations of Divine Love is important. You just have to have a taste for the medieval imagination.
 
Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
Calvin does seem like a massive omission given his historic significance.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
I'm inclined to think that a list of this type ought to come from an ecumenical and international group of readers or it can hardly be called 'Christian' in a representative sense. The provenance of this particular list implies that what (British?) Anglicans think of as influential on worldwide Christianity - which is not dominated by Anglicanism - is what all other Christians might or should think.

Having said all that, I appreciate reading lists, and the website has encouraged me to go and look for a copy of the 'Church Times' as there are one or two articles there that I'd like to read in their entirety.

[ 23. October 2014, 20:18: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Quite a lot are the sort of books people are supposed to read rather than the ones they actually have done. I suspect some are the books they would like other people to think they've read.

Yes, it's famous, but does anyone actually read Summa Theologica rather than look up one or two references in it as part of writing an essay on a theological course. Certainly if Summa Theologica and In Memory of Her are included as nods of politeness to the theological threads they represent, Calvin's Institutes should be there too. And does anyone still read Temple's Christianity and the Social Order, Lux Mundi or Bernanos's Diary of a Country Priest?

An interesting appearance is God, Sexuality and the Self by Sarah Coakley. That was only published last year. Will a person finding the list in 25 years time ask 'what was that?' Or is its presence in the list prescient?
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Lots of good stuff on the list; whether they really are "the top 100" Christian books is unlikely, as with all these lists. However I was pleased to see RS Thomas and Charles Williams included, as they are two of my favourite authors.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Recently, the Anglican magazine, the Church Times published its list of the top 100 christian books of all time. As one might expect from an Anglican magazine where the chairman of the judges admits
quote:
The panel was mainly, but not exclusively, Anglican.
one cannot help but note certain biases.
That's because the Church Times is a C of E paper.
 
Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Calvin does seem like a massive omission given his historic significance.
And surely Hobbes should be included too... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Where is the New Testament?
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Recently, the Anglican magazine, the Church Times published its list of the top 100 christian books of all time. As one might expect from an Anglican magazine where the chairman of the judges admits
quote:
The panel was mainly, but not exclusively, Anglican.
one cannot help but note certain biases.
That's because the Church Times is a C of E paper.
So strictly speaking it should the 'Top 100 Christian Books for Anglicans', or perhaps the 'Top 100 Anglican Books'. But neither slogan has the same snappy and universal ring to it as the 'Top 100 Christian Books'.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Where is the New Testament?
It's not a book but a collection of 27 books.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Where is the New Testament?
I believe the Bible was excluded from consideration on the principle that there would be no contest. The Book of Common Prayer was excluded on similar grounds.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Where is the New Testament?
It's not a book but a collection of 27 books.
Well, if Dafyd hadn't explained the rules, I'd then have suggested the Gospel of John or the Letter to the Romans.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Not that it's worth the work, but including the New Testament and old, it would be interesting to contemplate how this list would change over the centuries. Are those books from the 60's and 70's replacing some hot books from the 300's and 500's that are long gone.
 
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :
 
No Swedenborg, then?
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
No Swedenborg, then?
The Church Times is domiciled in England, and Swedenborg has not really had the influence or status here that he seems to have had elsewhere. I've only once met anyone who was New Church and that was over 40 years ago.
 
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :
 
It's interesting - he regularly travelled all the way to London to oversee the printing of his books. Though admittedly, they were in Latin, so hardly the stuff of lightweight popular reading.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Recently, the Anglican magazine, the Church Times published its list of the top 100 christian books of all time. As one might expect from an Anglican magazine where the chairman of the judges admits
quote:
The panel was mainly, but not exclusively, Anglican.
one cannot help but note certain biases.

There are a great many books...(i.e) Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship).
I read that, quite a few years ago.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
No Luther. Was there anything from the Reformation at all? No Athanasius either, or Anselm.

[ 26. October 2014, 16:39: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
No Boethius?
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
There's only 100 books, and how many people do you know who've even read Boethius, yet alone been inspired by him?

Yes, he's a significant figure, but it is difficult now to see what it is about his work that resonated so much to so many key people in the early modern period.

[ 27. October 2014, 08:09: Message edited by: Enoch ]
 
Posted by An die Freude (# 14794) on :
 
English clearly is God's chosen language, if this list is anything to go by. IANA theologian (which again this list does not purport to be), but I have never heard of most of the British/American writers on this list. It seems it includes a handful of overpoweringly famous international works, but completely bypasses the rest. For me, Bo Giertz's The Hammer of God would be on this list, as would possibly Barabbas by Pär Lagerkvist - although it's technically not a Christian book per se (but neither is Lewis' A Grief Observed, IIRC). I'd also throw in The Idiot by Dostoevsky and something by Tolstoy.
 
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
Just working through the top ten and putting what was the original language

Perhaps we are not so well endowed as you think.

Jengie
 
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No Luther. Was there anything from the Reformation at all? No Athanasius either, or Anselm.
It seems that anything particularly reformed was ruled out a priori in preference to anything anti-reformation, including the recent revisionist piece, The Stripping of the Altars, where the synopsis states:
quote:
late-medieval Catholicism was neither decadent nor decayed, but was a strong and vigorous tradition, and that the Reformation represented a violent rupture from a popular and theologically respectable religious system.

 
Posted by An die Freude (# 14794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Just working through the top ten and putting what was the original language

Perhaps we are not so well endowed as you think.

Jengie
Good point, but I have to disagree and maintain my point that these are the overwhelmingly famous top international works. I'd say the bias becomes clearer in the list of "very good second raters" that follows in the lowest 50, maybe even the lowest 75 or 90.
 
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
That is also the part of the list where the selectors bias is strongest.

Jengie
 
Posted by An die Freude (# 14794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
That is also the part of the list where the selectors bias is strongest.

Jengie
This is probably true - I have to say I haven't heard of most of the people, presumably theologians, in that part of the list. Again, that be due to my own selection error or blatant ignorance. Still, in comparison, I have heard of most of the international authors on the list, but probably less than half of the English ones.
 
Posted by Anesti (# 18259) on :
 
I was happy to see The Screwtape Letters, Mere Christianity and Pilgrim's Progress being personal favourites of mine.

I would add that Finding Happiness and Finding Sanctuary by Christopher Jamison OSB may not deserve to be in the CT top 100, but have a special place in my heart.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Welcome aboard, Anesti, and welcome to Heaven! As you'll probably know already, each board has a different flavour, so be sure to check out the guidelines at the top of each forum. If you have any questions, just ask, we'll be happy to help.

I do agree with you about Christopher Jamison's books - excellent and helpful reads which would be on the top of my list too!

Cheers

Ariel
Heaven Host
 
Posted by Anesti (# 18259) on :
 
Thanks Ariel.

I have been reading your forum for a couple of years and I am very happy to be aboard.

Cheers for the welcome!
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There's only 100 books, and how many people do you know who've even read Boethius, yet alone been inspired by him?
Well, I have, for one.
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There's only 100 books, and how many people do you know who've even read Boethius, yet alone been inspired by him?
Well, I have, for one.
I, as well. And, perhaps quite critically, Lewis. Since the matter of free will vs. predestination is still something that people debate about, I think Boethius is definitely worth reading.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by An die Freude:
For me, Bo Giertz's The Hammer of God would be on this list, as would possibly Barabbas by Pär Lagerkvist - although it's technically not a Christian book per se (but neither is Lewis' A Grief Observed, IIRC). I'd also throw in The Idiot by Dostoevsky and something by Tolstoy.
I don't remember any grounds for excluding A Grief Observed from Christian books. Now Boethius is a somewhat more interesting case in that there's no mention of anything explicitly Christian in it.

The Karamazov Brothers is already in there. I'd put both Crime and Punishment and Demons above the Idiot.
I'm not sure how explicitly Christian anything by Tolstoy is(*), but if you think he qualifies then The Death of Ivan Ilyich should definitely be there.

(*) Tolstoy was Christian, if a bit heterodox, but I think few if any of his writings rely on anything specific to Christianity in the way that Dostoyevsky's do.
 
Posted by An die Freude (# 14794) on :
 
Dafyd, I only read A Grief Observed some eight years ago, but it seemed to be (if I recall it correctly, which is admittedly a somewhat bold assumption) a book far more concerned with grief per se than with Christ or faith per se. That's why I'm not sure it's a Christian book as much as a very good book that's strongly relatable for Christians.

I would say that The Idiot is a far more Christian book than Crime and Punishment, with its portrait of the Christ-like Prince and its take on grace, mercy, suffering and how goodness can prevail in such conditions. I have yet to read Demons myself, so I cannot induct that.

As for Tolstoy, I do believe you may be right that he might be somewhat too heterodox for such a list - but then somebody else suggested Swedenborg, whose works I also have not read but whom my encyclopaedia claims "blended Christianity with pantheism and theosophy." So it seems heterodoxy is what we get...

I'm not very big on Tolstoy myself, nor on pacifism, but I have several good friends who claim his "The Kingdom of God is Within You" as an important book for them, both spiritually and morally. But I admit he might be just a little too far out for our group. [Biased]
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
If they wanted poetry, I think that Stevie Smith would have made an interesting anglican voice.

Obviously, I would have liked to see some Quaker writing on the list - probably the selected works of JamesNayler, but I can't claim he was as influential as Saint Augustine !

Example

[ 27. October 2014, 20:46: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by An die Freude:
I would say that The Idiot is a far more Christian book than Crime and Punishment, with its portrait of the Christ-like Prince and its take on grace, mercy, suffering and how goodness can prevail in such conditions.
I've seen it argued that the Prince is far more of a subtle parody of Christlikeness than actually Christlike. (He unintentionally causes a lot of damage.) But I think Crime and Punishment is just the better novel.

quote:
As for Tolstoy, I do believe you may be right that he might be somewhat too heterodox for such a list
My problem isn't that he's personally heterodox as that his books don't address themes specific to Christianity. (As with your reasons for excluding A Grief Observed.)
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No Athanasius either, or Anselm.
Anselm's in there in the mid thirties.
 
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Did anyone else scroll down to the top 10 children's books?

I would have found a place for Where the Wild Things Are. Also I think trying to fit everything from picture books to books for older children in the one category was a mistake that fails to do justice to the wide variety of books available.

Huia

[ 28. October 2014, 19:35: Message edited by: Huia ]
 
Posted by Michael Snow (# 16363) on :
 
Of course I am disappointed that none of my books made it, but as someone mentioned, there is no Calvin. How could they not include his Institutes?

I am a Wesley fan but this seems inexcusable.
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Given that this is better labelled "Top 100 Anglican Books", I wonder how much effect Calvin has on modern Anglicanism. Ken, of blessed memory, was an Anglican and a Calvinist but they're not thick on the ground these days.
 
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Given that this is better labelled "Top 100 Anglican Books", I wonder how much effect Calvin has on modern Anglicanism. Ken, of blessed memory, was an Anglican and a Calvinist, but they're not thick on the ground these days.
That is a classic example of Anglican pride. It is the claim to be a self-made denomination. Your historic origins take their cue from the low Calvinist tradition. It was predestinarian, which is why Methodist Arminianism is so commented on. Despite Newman the 39 articles are a low Calvinist document, they at times directly quote from the Institutes. What is even funnier is I suspect that High Anglican Eucharistic theology owes a heck of a lot to Calvinism and to Calvin in particular. I am wondering if you can put a hairs breadth between what I hear on here and Mercerberg reading of Calvin's teaching. Oh and the fact you have laity sitting in councils that is pure Calvinism. No other ecclesiological tradition has that.

In other words, it is affecting you and in ways you do not understand. Therefore, I would argue that if Anglicans want to make progress they need to get a proper understanding of Reformed theology and there is probably no better place to start than John Calvin's institutes. Did you know for instance that it was the first theological tome to be published almost simultaneously in Latin and the vernacular (French).

Jengie
 
Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :
 
Pace, Jengie's last post, but I've never really seen any evidence of any Anglican I know being interested in Calvin or having any sympathy with his views - aside from the 'Church Society' types, which I told are not that representative.

Anglicans I know (and not all of them High Church folk) read Augustine, they read Aquinas, they read Barth - and, increasingly, some niche types read Balthasar, but never has anyone said to me 'Calvin says...' (This doesn't meant that they don't have the Institutes and Commentaries on their shelves though.)

I've always suspected that it was due to the perception (not that reality) that our Reformation was a more internal one, not one based around a Confession.

I honestly can't think of anyone who seriously bases their theology on the Articles (again, Church Society types excluded.)

x

AV

[ 04. November 2014, 10:14: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
 
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
What I am arguing is that they do have Calvin's views but they just do not realise it! Now that is partly due to the demonisation of Calvin which makes the need to deny the legacy. If you want to get rid of Calvin influence on CofE you need to chuck not just the 39 Articles but also the Book of Common Prayer. Sorry when you know where to look his finger marks are right there.

Jengie

[ 04. November 2014, 10:27: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
If you'd like to discuss Calvinism, Purgatory is that way -->

Otherwise, perhaps we could return to discussing what books should, or shouldn't have made this interesting list.

Many thanks

Ariel
Heaven Host
 
Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :
 
Books I might have liked to have seen in such a list (admittedly some are eccentric choices):

C.S.Lewis: The Great Divorce

Jane Austen: Mansfield Park

Poetry: Geoffrey Hill, Rowan Williams, John Betjeman

and, Quaker Faith and Practice
 
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
C.S.Lewis: The Great Divorce
I'm thinking I might have to give that another go. I read it about 5 years ago having had it recommended to me as one of his best works. I've read all his Narnia books and most of his apologetics, but I absolutely hated it. It just never got going, I had no idea what was supposed to be going on, the imagery was self-contradictory and it was just a jumbled mess of confusion.

Does one need to have read Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell first?
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I cannot remember how long ago either of us read anything by Lewis. We must have some of his books around here somewhere...
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:

Does one need to have read Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell first?
Not in the least. I'm surprised you found it confusing. True, there is no plot - just a series of illustrative episodes of the various sins Lewis considers keeps people from entering heaven. I always like the phrase in the opening chapter characterising a neighbourhood as 'having the kind of book shops that sell the complete works of Aristotle'.
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Currently I am listening to the unabridged Great Divorce as an audiobook, and loving it. One of Lewis's peculiar strengths, in my opinion, is his ability to visualise heaven, and GB is a great example of this. A highlight is the bit where the speaker sees a woman arrayed in majesty, with a crowd of people and animals in her train. He clearly thinks she is the Blessed Virgin, but gets told, "She's Sarah Smith from Golders Green. You've never heard of her, but she is one of God's great ones." (quoting from memory, and therefore probably inaccurately).
 
Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :
 
I'd add Margaret Craven: "I heard the owl call my name", if novels are allowed.

and, less well known, Richard Wurmbrand: "Sermons in solitary confinement".

Also I don't recall seeing any Harry Williams on the list. My personal favourite of his is "Some day I'll find you".
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I'd add Margaret Craven: "I heard the owl call my name", if novels are allowed.

Also I don't recall seeing any Harry Williams on the list. My personal favourite of his is "Some day I'll find you".
Both are books filled with insight and enjoyable to read.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
I'm with you on the Williams (haven't read the other). Not just enjoyable but moving too.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
As the list is supposed to be 100 books, it's a sort of pity that the OP didn't add an additional rule, that for each book you want to add, you must say which one you'd remove to make a slot for it. There's quite a few books I wouldn't have included. It would have been quite interesting to get an impression of which books other Shipmates regarded as a waste of space.
 
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...it's a sort of pity that the OP didn't add an additional rule, that for each book you want to add, you must say which one you'd remove to make a slot for it. There's quite a few books I wouldn't have included. It would have been quite interesting to get an impression of which books other Shipmates regarded as a waste of space.
From the OP (emphasis added):
quote:
So what other titles might you include and what might you leave out? What might you demote and what might you promote?
[Biased]
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...And does anyone still read Temple's Christianity and the Social Order...?

Yes. I was at
a whole conference of people talking about it (among other things) only the day before yesterday.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes. I was at
a whole conference of people talking about it (among other things) only the day before yesterday.
Professor Linda Woodhead seems to turn up everywhere these days.


Sorry, Sipech, what I was really getting was the idea that there might have been a rule. For every book we wanted to add, we had to say which book we thought should be out.
 


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