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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Meditational Prayer for the young
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
So after years of before bedtime prayers with my 6 yo daughter (Goblin) I have finally just discovered that she finds prayer with words a bizarre concept. Well fair enough, but I tend to find prayer-without-words a more alien concept. I do practice a couple kinds of meditational prayer sometimes, but on some deep level I have trouble believing they are prayer. I was taught, probably at a very young age, that prayer is "talking to God" and so if it doesn't involve words, I can't reallybelieve it counts or something.
My first thought was to try a zen type meditation "listening prayer" with Goblin. Didn't really work unless you count 30 seconds of meditation as meaningful. We have tried that off and on since she was three.
Since she mentioned not liking to pray with words though last week, I have tried encouraging her to just think on a particular topic, person, or idea as a way to pray. She clearly likes that better than praying herself with words. Do you all have other suggestions of ways to lead children in meditational prayer? If I had a labyrinth handy, I would try that with her, but of course one doesn't. I do think it would be nice to try something active, but that's so far from the way I pray that I can't even think of anything like that that is likely to work with the rather young. For instance, she doesn't know any prayers by heart, so I'm not sure a rosary would work. And anyway that's prayer-with-words again.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hmmmm. Perhaps concepts instead of words? Discuss Christian concepts of God, spiritual teachings. And then just quiet time to absorb. Perhaps with music or natural sounds.
One thing that made meditation more accessible to me was being in nature. Sitting beside a mountain stream, listening to the water flow, feeling the wind, watching the play of light on the water and in the trees. This can serve the same function as a mantra, without the mind fixating on words. So to, could it serve as a quieting of the mind to a more free-form prayer.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Six years is a tad young, but if she is a precocious reader you could try a suitably adapted version of Lectio Divina. Adaptations I would suggest are to choose a text of suitable difficulty, and to be a bit more leading in evoking the "higher" responses. (For example, tell her that she needs to find something interesting in the text, otherwise she might rush through forgetting to look for something remarkable.)
You could also try Praying with Icons. (Links is simply a top result from google, but seems fair enough.) I think you will find that a ritual (sitting down and lighting a candle), followed by concentration on an object (the icon) to evoke prayerful thoughts leads to longer quiet phases than "empty" meditation. Again, to adapt to a child I would consider having multiple and varied Christian images, perhaps less severe than icons (though one tends to get surprised about children's tastes), and use a different one every session.
As far as the rosary goes, that is prayer with words, but with set words, and the frequent repetition really leads to quite a different effect than "chatting to God". What is good about this is that by keeping your hand and mouth busy with repetitive stuff, you burn off nervous energy and the conscious need to do something, making mental space for a more contemplative mindset. I should note that one is actually supposed to contemplate a series of different biblical "mysteries" with each decade of the rosary: Joyful Mysteries on Monday and Saturday, Luminuous Mysteries on Thursday, Sorrowful Mysteries on Tuesday and Friday, and Glorious Mysteries on Wednesday and Sunday (links from a quick google). This can be easily adapted to other biblical stories though. Basically the repetitive prayers work a bit like a metronome, ticking down the time you spend focusing your mind on something in the bible. By which I do not mean somehow reading or talking through the text of the bible or anything like that. This is precisely not possible since your vocal apparatus is busy. The assumption is that you know the story and that you recall/reflect it "wordlessly" while you pray the repetitive prayers. For a small child one or two decades without all the "embellishments" (Apostle's Creed, Hail Holy Queen, Fatima Prayer, ...) will be enough. You can first remind them of the story, perhaps reading it again, and then do a "rosary reflection" on it just after. That gets you around the typically "bad memory" of children.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Another one to try is the Jesus Prayer. You can make prayer ropes/strings together before using them to pray the prayer. Like praying the rosary it's a word prayer, but always the same words and the beads/rope keep your hands busy.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
You could try a finger labyrinth.
What does she find bizarre about prayer-with-words? That might give some ideas for kinds of prayer-without-words that would be different from those things in prayer-with-words.
[ 11. September 2014, 21:08: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I was taught, probably at a very young age, that prayer is "talking to God" and so if it doesn't involve words, I can't reallybelieve it counts or something.
Sometimes it's good just to be quiet and in someone's presence. Just "being" in the presence of the numinous is a form of communion.
Sometimes there are things that can't be put into words - especially when you're young, you know how you feel but you can't always articulate it. Grown-up prayers don't always fit the bill, assuming you can understand them. Words can try to put a limit on the unlimitable.
If words don't work, I'd suggest pictures. She may be visually inclined. She would need to choose the picture herself, but if you can find some nice religious art suitable for a child - perhaps a picture of an angel or of Jesus - she might be able to relate well to that.
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
The World Community for Christian Meditation
has a lot of information about teaching children to meditate.
Google teaching children to meditate. There are lots of sites, although most of them are in a Christian context.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I was taught, probably at a very young age, that prayer is "talking to God" and so if it doesn't involve words, I can't reallybelieve it counts or something.
IIRC, the phrase "talking with God" was used to describe prayer in the Brownie handbook, and was a bit of a shock to me, as until then prayer had always consisted of reading set words to God and the idea that it should be more like a conversation was new and startling. I have since expanded my definition to "being in communication with God", which includes both verbal and non-verbal communication, silent and active.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Prayer is also listening to God. In a relationship we both talk and listen. It is in listening to God through the practice of meditation that the relationship is deepened.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Mainly finding myself listening not talking in these threads, but wanted to respond at least to say thanks.
Getting a bit too bloggy here, but I've not posted anything in response for weeks because I didn't have other words, so just posting: Goblin and I have been trying things. Sometimes that's just me not asking her to participate in prayer, and trying not to assume that the person on the sofa with me who seems all wiggly limbs is ignoring my prayer, trying not to assume she isn't praying with me in some way. We tried a candle for focus, which might have worked for her, but it ended in urgently cleaning wax off the sofa, so we never got to discuss it properly.
She does like concepts. She used to love icons and ask for them, but now that she's old enough that I'd give her one if she wanted it, she doesn't seem interested in such prayer. I think partially I'll just have to wait until her brain is less noisy.
I completely missed Lectio Divina as a suggestion until right now, somehow thinking you were suggesting something more liturgical. That sounds really worth trying. (She's a very good reader for age, but I'm thinking I could just read the text aloud a few times because by evening, when we do these, reading is hard enough that although she could read say the text, it would take up too much brain to allow other pondering, perhaps.
Now that school starts our routine before bed is so cramped. Honestly, I suspect the best thing I am saying with our prayers before bed is that it's always worth doing even if it's very very brief. Sigh. Probably also time to remind myself that guiding her spiritual life is something else I can't do alone (thinking of God not people here.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
So after years of before bedtime prayers with my 6 yo daughter (Goblin) I have finally just discovered that she finds prayer with words a bizarre concept. Well fair enough, but I tend to find prayer-without-words a more alien concept. I do practice a couple kinds of meditational prayer sometimes, but on some deep level I have trouble believing they are prayer. I was taught, probably at a very young age, that prayer is "talking to God" and so if it doesn't involve words, I can't reallybelieve it counts or something.
My first thought was to try a zen type meditation "listening prayer" with Goblin. Didn't really work unless you count 30 seconds of meditation as meaningful. We have tried that off and on since she was three.
Since she mentioned not liking to pray with words though last week, I have tried encouraging her to just think on a particular topic, person, or idea as a way to pray. She clearly likes that better than praying herself with words. Do you all have other suggestions of ways to lead children in meditational prayer? If I had a labyrinth handy, I would try that with her, but of course one doesn't. I do think it would be nice to try something active, but that's so far from the way I pray that I can't even think of anything like that that is likely to work with the rather young. For instance, she doesn't know any prayers by heart, so I'm not sure a rosary would work. And anyway that's prayer-with-words again.
I'm curious. Does she really mean all words, or just something like "written down words" or "pre-composed, non-spontaneous words"? Anyway, it sounds like a cool challenge.
Is there any chance of asking her to show you how she prefers to pray? I mean, if she already has some alternative in mind, that would make things easier for you. (and I'd dearly love to know what it is!)
As for other ways of nonverbal prayer--
well, there's just being there and being silent. I think of these as the "God, I'm here" sessions. And then you just listen.
There's also drawing and other forms of art as prayer.
It seems there ought to be some sort of physical kinesthetic approach to prayer she could use(dance, maybe?) but I've never worked that out myself, how exactly this would be, what form it would take. If anyone has ideas (for something that could work for a terminally klutzy, untrained person), I'd be interested in that too. Maybe I should start a thread on it...
You can write/type a prayer (like, with the computer screen off), but that's still words, so may not work.
My son plays piano and composes things. For a musical person, that could be a form of prayer IMHO if directed toward God.
Then there's the Lord's Supper...
You tried candle burning. Would incense sticks be of any help?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I know she doesn't like thinking of words to use to pray. I'm not sure how she feels about pre-created words because the only prayer I have memorized is the Lord's Prayer. We have discussed that one such that I know it bothered her when I would pray "Our Father" such that I changed what I said to "Our Father and Mother." So she thinks about the prayer, clearly. I wasn't raised in liturgical tradition, and have only gotten there as a grown-up, so I don't really have a tradition or knowledge of written prayer to fall back on. Maybe this goes back to the idea of a rosary... I should ask her.
Doesn't art or music as prayer tend to become just doing art or music and not thinking about God? I know it would for me. Is that still prayer if you think about/offer it to God at the beginning and end? I know that constant mindfulness would not be possible for me! I think that's why it doesn't feel like prayer to me. (And those are real questions for anyone who wants to answer as well as an opinions.) I can see repeated Taize-style chants as prayer and have used them myself. But there is no creativity in that, which is why it works for me.
Saw your thread on kinesthetic prayer, and will definitely be watching that (though I have the same reservation with it that I mention above with creative art and music as prayer)
The Lord's Supper is the only God-related activity that my daughter and I both feel exactly the same about. She is bored by the church I love "evening church", and I have mixed feelings about the church that I attend with my family in the mornings, etc. Even being anointed/blessed/prayed over in Evening church, the other thing she loves there is something I don't get into. But the Lord's Supper we both find incredibly meaningful. Of course most of us can't do that but once a week...
[ 26. September 2014, 16:28: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ana
Apprentice
# 11667
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Posted
I don't really belong here, because I don't pray in a "normal" manner (as will become clear), but I thought I would add a note from my own experience as a child. It might be interesting to ask your daughter how she talks to herself.
I found prayer-with-words equally bizarre at her age, until I realised it was important for prayer with other people. It seemed like words were a handicap - you never quite get to say what you mean with words. The problem I had was that I didn't have an inner life that involved much words, so incorporating them into my spiritual life just wasn't going to happen.
It's a very difficult concept to explain, and I'm aware I'm failing miserably, but it may be that there is some way in which she self-talks that she may be able to use to talk with God.
[ 29. September 2014, 00:16: Message edited by: Ana ]
Posts: 17 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Doesn't art or music as prayer tend to become just doing art or music and not thinking about God? I know it would for me. Is that still prayer if you think about/offer it to God at the beginning and end? I know that constant mindfulness would not be possible for me! I think that's why it doesn't feel like prayer to me. (And those are real questions for anyone who wants to answer as well as an opinions.)
No, for me not all art is prayer. I have specifically created artworks which have been all about prayer, but they have been the odd pieces, and they have been meditation pieces on specific things.
To give a couple of examples, I put together a composite photograph expressing prayer, which I'd like to return to - so a candle with the flame merging into praying hands, cupped around a person as the wick and faces flickering in the flame - it was trying to express Welease Woderick's "holding people in the living light" visually. And I had to pray that to express it.
Second example: I painted a meditation on the Genesis and John words about light. It also expresses sunrise to sunset and is very abstract. And again that became very much about what those words meant to be able to express it. I no longer own that one; I gave it to someone who uses it as a meditation piece for prayer / teaching groups.
I have floating around in my head another idea about the Eucharist - layers of image that incorporate the cup and bread in the foreground with images of Jesus on the Cross, prayer, the I am phrases and other nebulous ideas which haven't crystallised enough to need to be made concrete. And again to be able to create that I'm going to have to pray it.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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