quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
This may be way off - but I have been praying 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us' a lot lately. The word which struck me is 'as', which in my mind I have often ingested as 'if'.

---

I don't know about the Greek, but the Latin has sicut et, which could better be rendered in English as "just as". This implies that God will forgive us in the same manner that we forgive others.
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
The Greek word is ὡς (hOs), which Louw-Nida describe as a "relatively weak [marker] of a relationship between events or states." It's commonly used in similes, including by Matthew, for instance in Matt 3:16 ("he saw the Spirit of God come down as a dove").

Now, it actually can also function as a conjunction meaning 'when,' but that isn't the main usage, and I think your reading is right on.
 

---

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
I always suspected there was a point to the internet, and now, I know! Where else would one find such erudition in two posts?

(Of course, had you dispatched my hypothesis with equally erudite stabs of rapier-sharp insight, my enthusiasm would have been every bit as warm )
 

---

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 
I often say the Lord's Prayer. If I am walking and I want to pray, I find it hard to pray in words in my head, so I focus myself by saying the Lord's Prayer in my head. When it comes to 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us' I always add 'And please help me to forgive those who trespass against me', because otherwise it just seems to assume that I do it automatically, and I don't always - I need God's help. I also pray some of the apostle Paul's prayers - they are good prayers, and I need some familiar words if I am praying words inside my head.
 

---

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I don't know about the Greek, but the Latin has sicut et, which could better be rendered in English as "just as". This implies that God will forgive us in the same manner that we forgive others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Is it OK then to only forgive someone with conditions attached, eg they must apologise first?

---

What was said that made you conclude that? I'm not sure how that relates to the 'forgive us our trespasses' discussion. The idea is that we are asking God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others - which makes us very aware of our need to forgive others, when we ourselves have been forgiven so much. Nothing to do with demanding apologies, as far as I can see.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Aren't we drifting away from prayer and into forgiveness here? Which is something we discussed a few years back in Purgatory. Can we drift back into prayer, please?

Curiosity killed ....
Kempistry host
 

---

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
Apologies, Curiosity killed... What's in our hearts when we pray, whether the Lord's prayer or any other, is surely important.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Yes, agreed Raptor Eye, what's in your/our hearts is important. But we were beginning to drift into a discussion about forgiveness and what is and isn't forgiveness. That's not within the remit for this board, which is about prayer.

(And any other comments on this should be taken to the Styx - as per normal - thank you.)

Curiosity Killed ...
donning prayer shawl temporarily

[ 24. September 2014, 18:05: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I have started a Purgatory thread on the forgiveness aspects in the last few posts.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
And to bring this back to the Lord's Prayer, I use the "Thy will be done" line a lot, but as a way to focus me in prayer. My understanding of prayer is to align my will to God's and that line reminds me that I shouldn't be imposing my wishes and desires onto a situation, but praying for the best for everyone - God's will.
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I think I love the Lord's Prayer because as someone raised in a VERY low church setting, it's the only bit of prayer that I have memorized and have lived with my whole life. There are other pieces of church service that are liturgical and weekly, but none of them are as long lasting. I find it comforting to have a permanent piece that can be thought about and offered with less thought as the situation and emotions allow.
 

---

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I am uncomfortable with praying anything but the traditional Lord's Prayer. Somehow the modernised words don't say the same thing for me. EG I can't equate 'save us from the time of trial' with 'lead us not into temptation' as for me thay have different meanings.
 

---

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
I was talking to someone only yesterday who said that 'time of trial' was nearer to the original in translation, and also 'debtors' rather than trespassers. All worth lingering on imv as we pray the prayer.
 

---

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 
One interpretation I have come across is that "deliver us from evil" is asking for protection from the consequences of others' sins, whereas "Lead us not into temptation" is about reducing our sin.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
There is a fuller discussion of this part of the prayer in the land of the Kerygmaniacs.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The Praise in Prayer thread has reminded me of a sermon that said that the Lord's Prayer manages to include all aspects of prayer - the ACTS acronym - Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication. Do you agree?
 

---

Posted by fullgospel (# 18233) on :
 
I say the Our Father all through the day, every day, both 'on its own', and in the rosary.

I also find various 'lines' or phrases seem to home in on me, and linger, sort of radiating outwards, and the rest of the prayer, goes on hold for a while.

Someone said about 'Thy will be done' while 'the blows of life rain down'. Very good to know. I find one phrase can do or be that. Often a line or word chooses itself (as far as I can see) -or chooses me.

I think thy will be done, is one of the most vital, pressing and as the writer above said (sorry my memory is poor and as far as I know I can't scroll back mid-my comment without losing it).

For me

Thy kingdom come

is particularly one I say and need to feel.
 

---

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
I love the Lord's prayer. I have to deconstruct everything nowadays. Surely we are in ourselves forgiven as much as we are forgiving, whether we know it or not. It has NOTHING to do with Judgement. God is not going to weigh us in His scales. It's about us. My trouble is I CANNOT forgive myself. I try. It's something I have to work on, often MANY times a day. It's been exhausting. I have more head space at times now. For NOT grovelling, NOT cringing before God. For standing naked before Him head UP. But that's not guaranteed.

Does God not forgive me when I can't forgive myself?

Forgiveness, like giving generally, like generosity, is its own reward. There is no quid pro quo with God. We cannot out-give or out-forgive Him. Neither can we limit, prevent His grace.

Lest I sound pukingly pious, on Friday night I received an email from a young, brilliant colleague after a minor technical failure on my part after an immensely long, hard week, his EQ is inversely proportional to his IQ. I was not going to turn up tomorrow without a word. Had nowhere to go with it. HAD to put it at the foot of the cross. Not his feckless offense. My response of total discouragement. It RUINED my evening with my wife. Our Friday evenings are precious.

I'll have to be a big boy about it tomorrow won't I? And that will be taken as confirming weakness. Ah well. I do pity him, but he can end my fading underachieving career. Inshallah.

In other words, Thy will be done.

[ 05. October 2014, 22:11: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
 

---

Posted by CuppaT (# 10523) on :
 
But it also should be noted that the Prayer says "Thy will be done on earth". That's a whole phrase there that is not individualistic. In fact, the whole prayer is corporate, isn't it? Our Father, Give us, our daily bread, our trespasses (or debts). But, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven". Just as the heavenly hosts and all the saints follow God's plans in heaven, so do we ask his favor that we be enabled the ability to do his will here on earth, together. "Teach us to pray," said the disciples. And so the whole church ever since has prayed it, and always will.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by CuppaT:
In fact, the whole prayer is corporate, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

“Father, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread,[b]
4 and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I know there are a few threads about the Lord's Prayer, but I don't think this aspect has been treated.

It occurs in Matthew and Luke

In Matthew it is given as a K.I.S.S (keep It Short and Simple)example to those who might go overboard in praying.
In Luke it is given as Praying 101 to a Lukan church that appeared to need encouragement to pray.
It seems that there are quite a few variants in the manuscripts, so that it may have been adapted as needed to different situations.

The way it is used now seems to me more like a mantra rather than a model for our own prayers. And mostly it is said in a church service, though maybe some of also say it in your private prayers.

What is often used now seems to be collected from the Didache"

quote:

---

8:2 And do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in the gospel: Our Father in heaven, holy be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us enough bread day-by-day. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one.

10:5 ....... For Yours is the power and the glory forever.

---

As the Didache also says in 8:3 Pray this three times each day maybe the "mantra-praying" practice started from those early days.

These days the flavour of many prayers is different. In some circles it is de rigueur to finish a prayer with some form of "in Jesus' name", as though the ability to ask in Jesus' name (authority) means that the phrase must be incorporated for it to be the case.

Do others feel as I do:
a) that these are two modes of praying which are unnecessarily differentiated?
b) that the Lord's Prayer should be used more as an example than a mantra?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.

---

Only in Matthew. In Luke, it's given right before the injunction to be persistent in our prayer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.

---

Only in Matthew. In Luke, it's given right before the injunction to be persistent in our prayer.

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0