Ship of Fools: 'If a thing is worth doing at all, it is worth doing badly' Discuss . . .

Thread: 'If a thing is worth doing at all, it is worth doing badly' Discuss . . . Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.

I suggest that he thank God that his life is so free of significant concerns that he is in a position to get shirty about ironing.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Is God really concerned about such things?

God isn't, no. But people are. How things look seems to be rather important to us for some reason.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Getting shirty about the ironing is one thing, but I suggest that getting your panties in a twist over the laundry is just, well, knicker-wettingly comical.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

When I make a painting, I don't stop working at it until I'm satisfied it's as good a painting as I can make. Why should an act of liturgy make do with less dedication than that?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I often write badly, as I know that if I stop, because of some bizarre sense of perfectionism, I would not be able to write. Anyway, the writing badly begins to improve gradually, until it's tolerable, but without doing it badly I wouldn't be able to do it. I became enamoured of the Zen story of the woman in a butcher's shop who asks for best steak, only for him to reply, it's all the best.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Another example came to mind. I like doing photography, and I quite like impromptu photos, that are not particularly well composed, or with poor lighting, red-eye, and so on. I also do some with just bits of people in them, elbows and stuff. Anyway, that's what I like.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
When I make a painting, I don't stop working at it until I'm satisfied it's as good a painting as I can make. Why should an act of liturgy make do with less dedication than that?

The OP is not about demanding such standards of oneself, it is about flying into a tizzy because others don't reach the same standards.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

There's a balance in all of this.

With anything liturgical - or apparently non-liturgical - we can run the risk of being either too pernickety and anal ... Tat Queens and so on ... or else sloppy and inattentive.

Each is as bad as the other.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
When I make a painting, I don't stop working at it until I'm satisfied it's as good a painting as I can make. Why should an act of liturgy make do with less dedication than that?
The OP is not about demanding such standards of oneself, it is about flying into a tizzy because others don't reach the same standards.

True. And also, there are all sorts of possible backstories here: a person who wasn't very good at ironing, but to whom this little involvement in the church meant the world; a usually good ironer who on that particular day had a family crisis that put them off their stroke (or whatever it is that ironers have); a vicar (though I'm sure it's not the case) who has an erotic obsession with smooth fabrics. But another possible backstory is it was someone who couldn't give a crap, and all I'm suggesting is that if we're doing anything at all for God - including the ironing - then a crap should be rather less than we are willing to give.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's a balance in all of this.

With anything liturgical - or apparently non-liturgical - we can run the risk of being either too pernickety and anal ... Tat Queens and so on ... or else sloppy and inattentive.

Each is as bad as the other.

As a purely academic question, Gamaliel, are you able to post in a thread without trying to hold things in tension? [Razz]

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

I don't notice how well the altar linens are ironed. Maybe my altar guild is just really good at ironing altar linens. Some of them still haven't figured out how to assemble the stack correctly and that annoys me. However, the altar guild are all volunteers so I just fix it myself without making a big deal about it. Likewise, if Father is that concerned about the altar linens, he will iron them himself.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.

I read an article which referred to all the minor things that we get concerned about as "First World Problems". We seem to have a need to be worried about something. Once such Developing World problems as having enough to eat and drink, children living beyond four, having a roof over our heads, not getting killed in civil wars etc are resolved, we have to find something else to fret over.

The Guardian (especially the Family Section) is a great paper for examples. My favourite story was a mother worrying about calling her child Ralph. Would the name be pronounced 'Rafe' (posh UK usage) making people think she was a snob? And would the child be bullied? A couple of pages were spent on this (and on the unreasonable difficulty of legally changing a child's name*).

When I hear of such things, or have equally silly worries myself, I mutter "Just a First World problem" and move on.

* She did finally change the name - to "Huxley".

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's a balance in all of this.

With anything liturgical - or apparently non-liturgical - we can run the risk of being either too pernickety and anal ... Tat Queens and so on ... or else sloppy and inattentive.

Each is as bad as the other.
As a purely academic question, Gamaliel, are you able to post in a thread without trying to hold things in tension?

You don't expect him to be all binary do you? [Biased]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Some things are ironed in a particular way for a good reason, e.g. the corporal is ironed in such a way as to prevent crumbs escaping.

If it isn't ironed properly it isn't worth using it at all.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

But what happens to the corporal if the sergeant asks for doing it the other way?

It may be that the proper way to offer the bread and wine is a basket for the bread (and with which to pick up the remaining multiplicity of bread bits) and a basic bottle for the wine, with bibs for those who can't drink tidily.

Tizzies about exact ironing strike me as being in the game for the wrong reasons.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

[Big Grin]

No, it is physically impossible for me to do otherwise, Arethosemyfeet.

If I stopped trying to hold things in tension I would unravel and end up in a set of spools on the floor.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.

If the guy thinks that's a problem, I'd think twice
about trying to talk to him about a real one.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.

There is a certain personality type for whom "to the best of your ability" doesn't exist as a category.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.

Well, I hope the volunteer will graciously step aside so that the Vicar can do the ironing properly.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Our Altar Guild is thrilled by the effect of permanent-press fair linens. OMG, it is such a labor saver!

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

"First world problem," LOVE IT!

My altar guild friend LOVES that work in all its perfect detail. She tells me it's meditative - for me it's a headache.

For me, getting musical notes and timing just right for the desired effect turns me on, my altar guild friend is disinterested in learning music to that level of attention.

So my altar guild friend sings "pretty good" and I iron to a "better than it started" condition; we are both happier (and the church possibly better off) if I sing and she irons.

Get the right people involved in each task if you want "perfection." Or happily put up with whatever they can happily give when you have to use the "wrong" people.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
inordinately

For this thread to get any real traction, we have to know what this actually means.

Otherwise, the only thing we can conclude on the basis of the opening post is that the vicar is a wanker. Its a QED of an opening post, kind of TICTHish.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

She was formerly in a religious community. The ironers are volunteers, who sometimes make mistakes.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Then s/he should DO IT HER/HIS BLOODY SELF!

Does s/he get similarly exercised when s/he's leading in visiting the sick and imprisoned, widows and orphans in their affliction, in washing the feet of the poor?

[ 26. July 2014, 10:41: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

But it all matters, doesn't it? You wouldn't tolerate someone being sloppy (that is, doing things to less than the best of their ability) in their visiting the sick etc, so why tolerate people being sloppy- if that is what is happening- in worship and preparing for worship?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I hope the volunteer will graciously step aside so that the Vicar can do the ironing properly.

This.

'Fine, do it yourself then' would be gracious enough imo!

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Are there disposable ones? Like paper towels?

Or a laundry service like there is for dress shirts?

Seriously though, so long as things are done with dignity and reasonableness, any form of obsessive-compulsiveness related to this is either sinful or needful of medical attention. I'm reminded of CS Lewis writing about a woman who needed her toast just so, and the food amounts on her plate exact. It is not right to lose the point of things within matters of form.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.

This does not even remotely mirror human psychology.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.

Ah, the Van Halen no brown M&Ms thing. That was a test. If the concert venue had read all the details and produced M&Ms with no brown ones, they could have some confidence that they had also read the details of, for example, the current draw of the amplifiers or the weight of all the stage equipment.

Does "wrongly ironed" mean ironed with the creases in the wrong places (in which case the person is doing it wrong and needs to be shown the correct way) or rumpled and sloppy-looking (in which case either the person is bad at ironing and needs training, or the person doesn't give a crap, which is a problem.)

Has the vicar tried to fix the problem, or does she just get upset and whinge?

[ 26. July 2014, 14:51: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Perhaps she misinterprets imperfection as disrespect?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

You see Albertus, the poor know how to be gracious. At Triangle last night there was no meal, no toiletries. Only one guy, with serious issues, objected to my telling him to use salt to clean his teeth. The Bulgarian woman soldier, just thrown on the street with her 22 year old multiply injured son from the Dawn Centre (Leicester's council homeless shelter, who say that there are about 5 homeless people in Leicester ... because a doorway is home) was beautifully gracious about it all. I could have wept. My new friend Kevin, a lovely man, victim of Salvation Army gangsters, he was sublimely gracious. So some arse concerned with the linen for some sacred rite that is EVER SO important, MORE important than anything real to most Christians, needs a week on the street.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

More than one thing can be important at one time, Martin. Visiting (etc.) the poor and sick and doing worship well (decently and in order, one might say) can both be important. To suggest that they can't is really just an inversion of the small-mindedness you appear to be arguing against.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some things are ironed in a particular way for a good reason, e.g. the corporal is ironed in such a way as to prevent crumbs escaping.

If it isn't ironed properly it isn't worth using it at all.

To return to this - if you had a bag containing gold dust, you wouldn't turn it inside out, let alone shake it up in the air - yer these things get done to corporals containing something far more precious.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

What, like people, with no food, no roof, in England. Unimportant things like that? Things Jesus isn't concerned about compared with His breakfast table?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

When Jesus said to His disciples "Do this ...." - do you think He was breaking bread over a tablecloth? Do you really think, Leo, that He was concerned about the crumbs falling when He broke the bread?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

As in other things, I quite like the Orthodox approach on this sort of thing.

I once attended an 'open day' thing at Fr Gregory's parish (remember him?) which was attended by a small number of people but from across a wide spectrum.

At the end, Fr Gregory was showing a group from the Nazarene College in Didsbury and myself what he does in consecrating the bread and wine for the Eucharist.

He demonstrated how - at the point where the priest invokes the Holy Spirit through the 'epiclesis' - calling for the Holy Spirit to make the elements into the Body and Blood of Christ - they shake the special napkin/cloth thing (which had a fancy Greek name, of course) as if to emulate the descent of the Spirit. They sort of waft it around.

Once he'd finished, he set it aside and said, 'Of course, originally it was just to keep the flies off ...'

[Big Grin]

I like that. A good combination of the sacred and the mundane.

Of course the needs of the homeless and so on and more important than what we get up to in our rituals and services.

But it's surely another both/and thing. I'm no more impressed by liturgical sloppiness than I am by a kind of spiky and over-attention to liturgical detail.

I'm more impressed, though, with those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, visit orphans and widows in their distress ...

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

So there's a moral equivalence in Heaven between the ironing of linen on The Table of The Presence and our helpless privilege turning away from the face of the poor, Jon in the Nati?

Bollocks. I mean utter, fucking bollocks. I know I should be sublimely acceptant of this obscenity, but FUCK it.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

I like you better when you're angry, Martin. It adds a... clarity to your posts that isn't usually present.

Of course, what you said is not what I said. You said we oughtn't to worry about worship and such things because some folk are poor. I said we ought to think that both things are important. And I do think both are important. If that is so repugnant to you, well, I'm quite sorry.

[ 27. July 2014, 00:00: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As in other things, I quite like the Orthodox approach on this sort of thing.

I'm surprised Gamaliel - surely it's both the Orthodox AND the Anglican but perhaps the Baptist?

My you're becoming very prescriptive aren't you? (laughs)

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

The corporals sometimes get ironed with the hems on the wrong side. The Vicar tuts, puts them on one side, and makes some comment like 'I'll have to do it myself'. The trouble is, she tends to do most things (that could be done by others) herself.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Jon. Pace. I do apologise for my clarity. None was intended. In analogy with the hypostatic union I'm sure both are 100% important. And we must remain helplessly privileged.

[ 27. July 2014, 09:06: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The corporals sometimes get ironed with the hems on the wrong side. The Vicar tuts, puts them on one side, and makes some comment like 'I'll have to do it myself'. The trouble is, she tends to do most things (that could be done by others) herself.

And here, IMO, we have a window into a large part of the reason why so much of the body of Christ is struggling. Because it's not really acting as a body; a small part of it is acting as provider of services (pun not intended but, hey, it kinda works) for the rest of us to consume.

If it's so important for things to be ironed 'just so' then the minister needs to communicate that need and mentor others who also view it as an important matter. Just like musicians need to coach and mentor others in developing their musical skills, evangelists need to encourage and nurture those who feel a calling to that ministry, etc. etc.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I like the Baptist way of doing other things, ExclamationMark, so there's a both/and thing going on throughout ...

[Biased]

Or perhaps, as you've introduced three elements, Orthodox, Anglican and Baptist, it should be both/and/and ...

Whether it was Orthodox or RC, Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal or anything else, the incident I cited was, of course, simply to illustrate that we can have as 'high as a kite' an approach (or the opposite) as we like, as long as we keep things in perspective.

I suspect, in the instance of the vicar and the ironing from the OP, a sense of perspective had been lost to a certain extent.

However, we don't know enough about said vicar to form a judgement as to how they behave the rest of the time.

As with anything else, we'd have to look at the whole picture and also be aware of the planks in our own eyes ...

I've got plenty in mine.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The corporals sometimes get ironed with the hems on the wrong side. The Vicar tuts, puts them on one side, and makes some comment like 'I'll have to do it myself'. The trouble is, she tends to do most things (that could be done by others) herself.

I agree with SCK. This is a training issue. The people doing the ironing don't know that it matters. They need to be taught the correct way.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Why does it matter? To whom? Do these people need teaching how to love the poor? A church full of millionaire businessmen, consultants, surgeons, the leader of the County Council, do they need to be taught to provide toothpaste and a meal and accommodation for the poor more or less?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When Jesus said to His disciples "Do this ...." - do you think He was breaking bread over a tablecloth? Do you really think, Leo, that He was concerned about the crumbs falling when He broke the bread?

Yes - see John 6 where he orders his disciples to 'gather up the fragments which remain.'

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So there's a moral equivalence in Heaven between the ironing of linen on The Table of The Presence and our helpless privilege turning away from the face of the poor

It's both/and, as Bishop Frank Weston proclaimed I want you to make your stand for the Tabernacle…. if you are prepared to fight for the right of adoring Jesus in his Blessed Sacrament, then you have got to come out from before your Tabernacle and walk, with Christ mystically present in you, out into the streets of this country, and find the same Jesus in the people of your cities and your villages. You cannot claim to worship Jesus in the Tabernacle, if you do not pity Jesus in the slum.

This is why the great ritualist priests were to be found in urban priority areas and worked as Labour Party councillors.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

That concern was to make a point. It's got NOTHING to do with our rituals. Glad to hear it that you can't be a Christian in empty ritual only.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Why does ritual always have to be 'empty ritual'?

Why are other people's rituals always 'empty' and for some reason our own aren't?

We all have rituals.

I feel a verb declension coming on:

My rituals are Spirit-filled and completely unhypocritical.

Your rituals are devoid of the Spirit and completely futile and empty because you don't care about other people in the way that I do because I'm so perfect and better than anyone else ...

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Because G, while we're loving Jesus ever so much and every crumb of Him, we're ignoring His faces in our face.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When Jesus said to His disciples "Do this ...." - do you think He was breaking bread over a tablecloth? Do you really think, Leo, that He was concerned about the crumbs falling when He broke the bread?
Yes - see John 6 where he orders his disciples to 'gather up the fragments which remain.'

Huh? John 6 is about God's abundant provision, not about the Eucharist. (Or does Eucharist involve fish?) And I totally don't believe the disciples were searching the grass for every dust sized crumb of bread; they'd have been there for days and still miss the ones that fell into creases in clothing or were stepped on.

God made the world, God came into the world, walked, pooped, bathed, spat, hairs fell out, skin cells shed, fingernails were cut or filed, all the usual stuff of human beings dripping bits to the earth that become part of the earthly soil. Jesus was not afraid to be physically touching and intermingling with the physical world, why would he fear a slight crumb of bread touching the physical world and becoming part of the earth soil? Even if he identified the bread (and the fish?) with himself.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

We all have rituals.

Absolutely we do.

Rituals are comforting, they give a sense of stability and of an unchanging world when change is here to stay. Rituals decrease anxiety and increase confidence.

Even wolves use ritual - before hunting, wolves go through a ceremonial tail-wagging, group-howling session. Since wolves often stalk animals much larger then themselves, this ritualistic activity helped them coordinate the hunt.

I think a lot of sport fulfills our need for ritual too. Folk undergo many rituals when playing and watching sport. So when the team you are rooting for wins, you feel good.

Then there are rites of passage. I retired recently but my family are all away, so I couldn't mark the occasion with them. Instead I gathered friends round and we had a retirement 'do'. I needed it.

But this ironing thing is different imo. The person who wants it 'just right' is the one who should get it 'just right' - not impose their need on a volunteer!

My MIL had a picture in her mind of a 'perfect' family Christmas. This involved many rituals. The problem was, she made life miserable for everyone else in the process of getting it 'just right'.

We had a sweet ritual at Christmas when the boys were little. No one was allowed downstairs 'till all were up and we processed down singing (!!). You can easily guess why I set this one up [Smile]

. Guess what? They still want to do it aged 25 and 29 if they are home for Christmas (erk!).

Ritual is good, yes. It's probably essential to our well being. But imposing ritual on others is not good at all imo.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Sure, I agree with that, Boogie.

I'm not defending the anally retentive behaviour of the vicar, simply suggesting that we'll have similar blindspots in other areas.

I'm just finishing a biography of Wesley. One of the observations, among the positive ones too, of course, is that he expected what he was comfortable doing to apply to everyone else.

So, for instance, because he used to get up at 4am he thought everyone else should.

Because he approved of this, that or the other practice - he expected the same of other people.

However we cut it, this tendency is particularly apparent in religious circles of whatever kind.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
when the team you are rooting for wins, you feel good.

Especially if you are Australian.

I'll get me coat.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So there's a moral equivalence in Heaven between the ironing of linen on The Table of The Presence and our helpless privilege turning away from the face of the poor
It's both/and, as Bishop Frank Weston proclaimed I want you to make your stand for the Tabernacle…. if you are prepared to fight for the right of adoring Jesus in his Blessed Sacrament, then you have got to come out from before your Tabernacle and walk, with Christ mystically present in you, out into the streets of this country, and find the same Jesus in the people of your cities and your villages. You cannot claim to worship Jesus in the Tabernacle, if you do not pity Jesus in the slum.

This is why the great ritualist priests were to be found in urban priority areas and worked as Labour Party councillors.

It stop them being condescending (in the worst sense of the word) towards their parishioners. Conrad Noel was one of the worst for proclaiming socialism yet keeping all the power in the church for himself.

It was rather a case of doing things "to" people not so much "for" or "with". Father still knows best in such circles whatever the colour of his politics.

[ 27. July 2014, 16:16: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

.....and this is precisely why there are Altar Guilds in the churches for whom this is important.

Neither wrong, nor right....just the way it is.

[ 27. July 2014, 16:28: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Ritual is good, yes. It's probably essential to our well being. But imposing ritual on others is not good at all imo.

Ritual is. The good or bad is situational and contextual.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When Jesus said to His disciples "Do this ...." - do you think He was breaking bread over a tablecloth? Do you really think, Leo, that He was concerned about the crumbs falling when He broke the bread?
Yes - see John 6 where he orders his disciples to 'gather up the fragments which remain.'
Huh? John 6 is about God's abundant provision, not about the Eucharist.

So how come there is a long sermon about eating the flesh of the son of man?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What, like people, with no food, no roof, in England. Unimportant things like that? Things Jesus isn't concerned about compared with His breakfast table?

To repeat what I said earlier: it all matters. In the highly unlikely situation where a particular person might have to choose between meeting the urgent needs of a sick or homeless or distressed person and preparing/ conducting worship as well as possible, then I'd say the worship takes second place. Not otherwise. One feeds and supports the other and both gladden God's heart.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Or does Eucharist involve fish?)

It most certainly did in some sections of the Early Church - witness the graffitto in some of the catacombs. see plate 13 The association of the fish with the Eucharist is highly probable ...a fish of exceeding great size .... which a holy virgin drew with her hands ... ever gives to its friends to eat, it having wine of great virtue, and giving it mingled with bread.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.
This does not even remotely mirror human psychology.

Maybe, but it wasn't me who said it first

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it is about doing things as well as you can do them. To some extent it's the removing-all-the-blue-M&Ms thing: those who are faithful in little things will be faithful in greater things.
This does not even remotely mirror human psychology.
Maybe, but it wasn't me who said it first

Well, your source does not hold the same relevance for me, but that misses my point regardless.
You could easily have a person who kept the alter in fine fettle but still stole from the parish funds and ate baby kittens for tea.
And I am sure neither of us needs much effort to find example of clergy who failed your test.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

'Baby kittens'?

Are there any other kind?

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Baby kittens'?

Are there any other kind?

Baby kittens fit in a teacup. Unlike slightly larger kittens. [Smile]

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

I apologize for resurrecting this. I have been away, and I have a story that is relevant.

At a baptism our rector poured the water from the pitcher into the font as usual. Then he stared a moment at the water in the font, and appeared to remove a little bit.

It turned out that the person who filled the pitcher had not rinsed it first, and the rector had to fish a dead bug out of the font. No one noticed.

He left a note for the Altar Guild telling what had happened and asking them to make sure the pitcher was rinsed before it was filled. I am sure that the person who had filled the pitcher was horrified. I am also sure that no one on that Altar Guild will ever make that mistake again.

The rector did not make a big commotion about it, and everyone who heard the story had an even higher opinion of him than they already had.

If a simple reminder is enough, people should not make a big fuss. If more than a simple reminder is needed, then people need careful instruction on how to do things.

Moo

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

We all of us have our little foibles (except me of course) whether it be liturgy, grammar, how food is prepared or what. When it comes to liturgy, it's a foible unless a person genuinely (and I mean genuinely) believes or has serious and sincere fears that if one gets it wrong, either:-
a. The bread and wine don't become the body and blood of Christ; or
b. One commits the sin of sacrilege.

Otherwise, however strongly we may feel on the subject, it is a thing indifferent.

For some, a person's not being properly ordained involves the former and dropping crumbs creates a risk of the latter. I would hope that nobody is troubled by scruples severe enough to believe that linen not being ironed right gets into either territory.

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Our Vicar (Whom God Preserve) gets, to my mind, inordinately* upset when altar linen is improperly ironed. Is God really concerned about such things? I should add that I was not involved in the ironing.
*No pun intended.
Well, I hope the volunteer will graciously step aside so that the Vicar can do the ironing properly.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

Without wishing to out-Gamaliel Gamaliel, isn't context critical (as TSA hinted)?

There are all number of minor things that get on my tits at my shack, most of which boil down to people not paying basic attention to something trivial but considerate (turning the bloody foldback monitors off after a service; not leaving the desk live and enclosed so it cooks; not turning every sodding light on during a morning service in summer; etc.). They annoy because ALL involved know what to do, and none of it is hard. So it smacks of discourtesy and the slapdash not to take the extra 10 seconds to check.

However if asked what we should be focussing on as a fellowship, or what's important, none of that would be anywhere near making even the long long long list.

But it will still piss ne off next time it happens [Smile]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Wow, people sure are judgmental toward those who are a bit particular about some things. The Vicar wants the altar to look right for the mass and all of a sudden assumptions are made about how he treats the poor, how much he cares about others, and he's just an all around bad Christian, because we all know you can tell a real Christians by how wrinkled he is. I don't even own an ironing board, I must be helping the needy during all those saved ironing hours -- only not.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Twilight,

Read Moo's post a few up from yours. The rector in her story responds much better than the vicar in the OP.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
At a baptism our rector poured the water from the pitcher into the font as usual. Then he stared a moment at the water in the font, and appeared to remove a little bit.

It turned out that the person who filled the pitcher had not rinsed it first, and the rector had to fish a dead bug out of the font. No one noticed.

There is also the apocryphal story of the Vicar who arrived at the font and found it empty. Thinking on his feet, he proclaimed, "We will now take part in the ceremony of fetching the water", processed to the kitchen, filled a ewer, processed back and filled the font.

Now you could never do that with a full-immersion baptistery (although I have seen people pouring in a few kettles-full of boiling water in a vain attempt to raise the temperature).

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Ha. We had a case (I discovered it!) where the helpful person filled the font with near-boiling water, which would have been a shock to baptizer and baptizand alike.

Thank God, I peeked inside to make sure someone had remembered to fill it. When I saw the steam rising off the water, well...

Church was half full and service five minutes away. I promptly warned my husband the pastor, grabbed a silver pitcher out of the parsonage, and made a ceremonial Big Deal out of adding more (icy) water and moderating the temperature.

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :

Tangent Alert
Referring to Lamb Chopped's tale, thus new rituals begin.

I was afraid that I might have started a new ritual a few years ago in the days when I was a Sanctuary Server. Just as the Offertory Procession was coming up the nave, I realised that the Alms Dish (which I was supposed to bring forward) had been left in the wrong place and I couldn't reach it. Mercifully, my colleague on the other side of the sanctuary spotted my alarm, realised the cause and picked up the dish from behind him. Then there was the question of how to get it to me without causing a fuss.

I was told afterwards that it looked like the Trumpton Clock - he picked up the dish, the pair of us stepped forward, bowed, he handed the dish to me, we bowed to each other again and retreated.

Happily, it was never repeated.

End Tangent

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Darllenwr, are you sure that does not mean the collection has never been liturgically valid since? [Razz]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Surely, for it to be fully liturgically valid, you should have the MC playing the Trumpton theme tune on the sanctuary bell... [Two face]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Referring to Lamb Chopped's tale, thus new rituals begin.

Do you know the story of "Binding the Cat"? if not: read it here. It exists in many versions.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Well, that explains Louis the cathedral cat.

[ 12. August 2014, 08:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Love it! And he even goes into the roped-off areas which are closed to everybody else!

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