Thread: 23 minutes in hell Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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The Bible study bunch watched a DVD, 23 minutes in hell, about a supposed near death experience-like trip to hell, the DVD is also on YouTube. I was having fun trying to catch all the unBiblical imagery and mis-used verses (including his translating every Old Testament reference to the place of the dead as Hell which he equates with the iron-barred burning-hot demon-infested place he "visited").
At the end, my reaction to the portrayal of a god who arranges for some of his sensate creatures to spend endless forever being tortured in multiple ways beyond the worse dealings by human despots, beyond the imagination of Stephen King, my reaction was "that's not the God I know." Not even a family resemblance. If I thought that was God, I would have no admiration for or desire to imitate god!
What really intrigued me - several in the group loved it, want to buy copies to show it to their unsaved friends.
Do people really think a person who is unsure if there is any god would be attracted to a god who is portrayed as the kind of personality we would judge in any human as criminal or insane?
Has fear of hell ever converted anyone to believe in a God of love your neighbor?
I'm not wanting to debate here "does hell exist" but the more immediate this-world question of whether non-believers in god get convinced by Bible spouting videos that hell is real, and convert to theism as a result?
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
What really intrigued me - several in the group loved it
I think this gets to the heart of the matter.
Some believers seem to enjoy what a pastor friend of mine refers to rather catchingly as terreur delicieuse (delcious terror); a sort of spiritualised mix of Schadenfreude and voyeurism.
It underpins the success of back-from-the-dead testimonies (of which this is just one of a long line), Damascus-road conversions in which more space is given to the lurid "before" part than the "after" part, and the world of Chick comics and Left Behind - as well as being a nice little earner if you can break into the market.
In short, it's more about self-pleasuring entertainment for christians than any serious attempt to evangelise; and by trivialising Hell (apparently Bill Wiese finds the screaming of billions of people in hell "annoying") any serious discussion of the topic is rendered impossible.
Catholic historian Jean Delumeau has described such efforts at evangelism through terror as the pastorale de la peur ("shepherding through fear"), which he sees as a major factor in the decline of Christianity in the West.
[ETA warning: posting on this thread will lead you to see the following message: Going to 23 minutes in hell ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
]
[ 14. August 2014, 07:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[ETA warning: posting on this thread will lead you to see the following message: Going to 23 minutes in hell ]
Not a problem; I arrived here via the Bakerloo line. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The concerning thing about this method of 'evangelism' (in a very loose sense of the word) besides the theological issues is that those who would want to show it to their friends would seem to have a very un-empathetic mindset.
It is as though they do not realise that someone may come at it from a different angle and be put off by it. A presumption of truth is a dangerous thing and merely expecting someone to believe something wholly, unquestioningly at the first time of asking is simply unrealistic.
Even if you do subscribe to the theology that engenders this view of hell, there seems to be little heeding of Jesus' advice to make their evangelism effective, to "be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves".
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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I saw the first few seconds, and your description, and decided it was the same old, same old.
Given that there are thousands in Iraq who have been through several days of hell, this sort of film seems to be meaningless and self-pleasuring.
It does represent one end of the con evo approach. On the one side, hell is scary and horrid, and they use fear tactics to scare people into the kingdom. And no, it doesn't work, not in the long term. People don't develop a relationship to a loving God out of fear of hell.
The other side is the sappy, squishy "love letter from God" type of understanding of God and heaven. A God who is as wet as that is not attractive to most people.
As Eutychus pointed out, it is only insiders who like this sort of crap - either the fear tactics or the sentimentality. It is an indication that they have lost all of their real emotions, which would be throwing up at either side of this.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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I think that the only group whose behavior would be influenced by this would be people who already had doubts about their unethical behavior--people who had a vague belief in God, combined with a conviction that they could get away with ignoring any commandments.
I do not see this as the best way to reach such people. When people are scared they can't think clearly, and once the fear wears off they resume their former behavior.
Moo
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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What Moo said.
Do we really want converts based on fear? Does God? IMHO those are probably not real converts at all.
I do believe Hell exists, but I don't believe it does us a whole lot of good to dwell on the subject, unless we as Christians need a kick in the pants to get serious about something God wants us to be serious about, and we're airy-fairily ignoring (say, mission and evangelism). Like the signs on mountain highways that say "steep drop on right of road." They are NOT put there to encourage you to drive as close as possible to the edge, so you can look over and get a good view.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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Is there, by any remote chance, money involved?
Why would God send someone to hell to report back - didn't Jesus say that the only sign we'd have was that of Jonah.
[Seems a bit like the box jellyfish man to me].
[ 14. August 2014, 13:46: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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Probably.
What bugs me is the lack of scientific integrity. These "hellfire" near-death-experiences don't fit with the research on NDEs (neither does "heaven is for real", btw). Which ultimately is going to undermine their credibility. And when you drag Jesus into your anti-science, make stuff up to fit your theology, anything for a sale con you end up undermining Christianity.
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on
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Thanks. I've heard about it and will probably have time to watch it tonight. All I've had time for this morning is this.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Thanks. I've heard about it and will probably have time to watch it tonight. All I've had time for this morning is this.
Amusing song, thanks! (I would never sing it myself.)
The comment about "delicious terror" awakens a recognition - I have friends who LOVE horror movies. Me, I never could stand watching people get hurt, had to look down at my lap during some scenes in Roy Rogers movies, never liked slapstick even as a kid, just didn't get that gene. But I have friends form whom the more violent and realistically gory a movie the better.
Is there money in it? I ran into a quote from some biggish name saying if you want money talk about hell. But other web pages say books claiming a visit to heaven sell better.
I forgot to mention I'm also collecting scientific errors, along with Bible mis-quotes. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm debating whether to raise the issues in the next discussion or keep quiet; if they derive delight from thoughts of a hell more gruesome than the Bible hints at, they may resist/resent and reject any proofs that he mis-quotes/mis-interprets the Bible and science. In which case better to stay silent until the next topic. (I suspect we are in for one more session of NDEs and similar dreams of heaven and hell.)
Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on
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It never ceases to amaze me how many Christians have such a low opinion of God's goodness. If they actually thought about how God would feel about their beliefs they would realise they have no faith in his goodness !
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think that the only group whose behavior would be influenced by this would be people who already had doubts about their unethical behavior--people who had a vague belief in God, combined with a conviction that they could get away with ignoring any commandments.
I do not see this as the best way to reach such people. When people are scared they can't think clearly, and once the fear wears off they resume their former behavior.
Moo
In the past, there clearly were some people who were genuinely afraid of the terrors that hell might hold for them. As you say, these were probably people who already had a familiarity with Christianity, but were not living the devout lives that they suspected they should have been living.
Nowadays, Western people are less familiar with Christianity in the first place, but we also have more of a cultural problem with authority figures, (physical) punishment and perhaps simply envisioning a high level of pain. IOW, we're used to feeling autonomous and negotiating our own spiritual and/or moral path, and we're both more disapproving of violence, yet also unfazed by visual depictions of it..
Also, with the improvements in medicine and living standards fewer and fewer of us experience or witness ongoing severe pain (and when we do we treat it as an indignity) so it's hard to imagine what that might be like. Death has been sanitised and largely removed to hospitals, which means it's easier to pretend it'll never happen to us (and which of us has ever witnessed a 'deathbed conversion' rather than theorising about them at a distance?).
For these reasons, I doubt that any but a tiny number of us could be 'frightened into faith' now.
(BTW, I've only watched a few snapshots from that video. It's too long! Also, sadly, it's a bit culturally alienating. That shouldn't matter for such an important subject, but I find it hard to relate to that primped look and the background music and the earnest expressions. Maybe it's because I'm British, but those perfect teeth just put me off. All the better for gnashing with in hell, I suppose!)
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
It never ceases to amaze me how many Christians have such a low opinion of God's goodness. If they actually thought about how God would feel about their beliefs they would realise they have no faith in his goodness !
We've discussed God's goodness in the context of some activities of God's followers attributed to divine order and inspiration. God may be good but some ideas about are bad.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Some believers seem to enjoy what a pastor friend of mine refers to rather catchingly as terreur delicieuse (delcious terror); a sort of spiritualised mix of Schadenfreude and voyeurism.
Good Lord, it's like an ostensibly Christian Grand Guignol. In the US we have things like that called "Hell Houses" around Halloween put out by Fundamentalist churches that depict people (usually gay, or sexually active teens, or people using drugs, or the issue du jour) dying and going to a lurid Hell, and then there's a sort of altar call room at the end where you either accept Jesus or go off, knowing you've been warned of the doom that awaits your unsaved soul, etc.
Wikipedia
Hell House documentary
Make your own!
A disturbingly vague web site that doesn't make it immediately obvious that this is a religious Fundamentalist thing
“I’m either going to put you in the abortion room,” Brother Thomas says, “or the drunk-driving room.”
Youtube clip of a Hell House
(Some of these are about the same one in Texas)
[ 15. August 2014, 01:42: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Did he recognize anyone in hell?
(I'm always up for some score-settling, Dante style ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
)
Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on
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Interesting that his NDE is very different from just about all the other accounts of hellish experience NDE's I've read. That alone makes me a bit suspicious and the very slick presentation with scripture references blurted out without any context doesn't help. Not convinced.
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on
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I am one person who feared Hell and and got saved many years ago, and my wife says that,she was afraid of going to hell before she made a commitment. I don't know how anyone can joke about it specialy Christians, it is an awful place. The Bible describes it as a lake of fire. I think about members of my family who are away from The Lord and pray for them. I don't even want to see the video It would depress me too much.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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Nice to see you posting, barrea!
There's a difference between personal reflections, or even hearing preaching about Hell, and organising tours and merchandising to promote one's own alleged personal experience of 23 minutes* of it. I think that's what's really deprecatory.
*A suspiciously exact figure. I'm reminded of a line in The Honourable Schoolboy: "the historic moment of delivery was later put at six past five, which was a lie but gave it force."
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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Good morning Barrea! It IS nice to see you back. I'm surprised that fear seems to have worked as a motivator for you. Shows what I know about human beings, I guess. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
How long in would you say that love took over? Genuinely curious.
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Good morning Barrea! It IS nice to see you back. I'm surprised that fear seems to have worked as a motivator for you. Shows what I know about human beings, I guess. How long in would you say that love took over? Genuinely curious.
As one goes own in the faith you appreciate the love of God more and more and realise what it took Jesusv to die for us.I suppose one would ca.lt growing in grace..
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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quote:
It does represent one end of the con evo approach. On the one side, hell is scary and horrid, and they use fear tactics to scare people into the kingdom. And no, it doesn't work, not in the long term. People don't develop a relationship to a loving God out of fear of hell.
Con evo? Just look where they got it from...!
[code]
[ 16. August 2014, 16:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Ha ha ... the jury's out on whether Dante took it literally, though.
Mind you, some of the hell and damnation frescoes in Florence are enough to give anyone nightmares ...
I visited the Orthodox monastery at Tolleshunt Knights in Essex earlier this week. Elder Sophrony insisted on there being a fresco of the Repentant Thief to show that there was always a chance of salvation ...
He also insisted that the weighing scales held by the angel on the Last Judgement scene were tilted down on the virtues side - even though the lovely Romanian nun who showed us round said that they should really be weighted on the vices side ...
Some little demons were standing by, frustrated ... and others were drowning in the river of fire that emanated from the Throne ...
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Isn't Love grand? Love gets to kill AND torture those it kills afterwards forever and ever! Result!! Win-win. Love is soooooooo good. Thank God God is love!!! Imagine how bad it would be if He weren't?!?!
Violence is just sooooooo redemptive isn't it?
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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I should point out that the Inferno is just one third of the Divine Comedy--it's just the main bit that gets assigned in colleges and schools. The Paradiso is absolutely beautiful but no one bothers with that because they assume people sizzling on grids are more interesting. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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I'm having trouble with the lake of fire being anything remotely literal when all the rest of the imagery it sits in the midst of seems to be symbolic, not at all literal.
Like, how do you throw death into a lake of fire as if death is a physical thing that can be tossed here and there like a football? (any shape football).
Anyway, it seems to be "fire and brimstone", not just fire. I've been looking up brimstone, which seems to be just another word for sulphur, which seems to have long and ancient association with spiritual purification. Spiritual Terrorism (on google books) says at Bible writing times it was used as a medicine, as a purification of a house after disease, and to symbolize offering prayers of purification.
It is sold today for "performing exorcisms, providing spiritual protection, and during spiritual purification rituals" etc. "Sulphur is ...a stone of vitality and energy... said to bring protection and purification. Sulphur is used in metaphysics to purify and detoxify ...thoughts," "Crystal Meaning" web page
Which raises a question whether the "lake of fire and brimstone" refers to a temporary purification process (like a refining fire, like a purifying sulphur), more like the RCC's temporary purgatory with a purpose of fitting for heaven, than like the Protestant everlasting punishment with no redeeming purpose.
Just wondering out loud.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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As I said on a completely different thread recently, it's strange how quickly certain types of Christians change from preaching a gospel of love, to preaching about the devil, demons, the dark side. Sometimes, the paranoia-induced stuff can take over and take up more discussion time than the positive side of Christianity. It is almost as if, having made converts by the love method, they want to make sure they keep them there by the fear method.
I don't think it ultimately works though - if people see through it and decide they have been 'had', they usually reject the whole lot, not just the bad stuff.
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on
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Apparently, on a literal reading, Heaven is hotter than Hell
But there is, obviously, some argument about that. For instance, if we are "luminous beings" in Heaven, we would be radiating and thus cooling ourselves (except during group hugs, which would be hot), so we might not perceive the hotness of Heaven.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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I think what I've picked up here (and web-surfing) is two reasons, maybe three, some Christians like hell.
1. Desire for revenge. Those nasty people who did bad stuff to me (lied to me, hit and run my car, etc) may get away with it short term but they are going to SUFFER!
2. Delight in having something good others don't have. Some people get special pleasure out of having something unique, lose pleasure in it if they discover everyone else has it too.
3. The "delicious terror" idea, which might be relayed to an observation I heard years ago, we are an adrenaline addicted society. Adrenaline makes you "feel alive" so long as the threat is not against you personally (in which case it's just terror, not delicious terror).
The delicious aspect is reduced by fear of family members going to eternal torment, and I hear a that fear expressed rather often in the Bible study bunch, about aunts and uncles, and grown children. Heartbreaking fear of being in heaven without those they love. Justified by things like "we are supposed to love God more than we love our family"
If I'm going to publicly question the idea of eternal terrible torture just for not having heard about Jesus or not understanding the message, I need to be aware of the dangers of resistance to "taking their fun away" or "need for revenge" or whatever else. In addition to being able to deal with all the verses they've had drilled into them as supposed proof of eternal torment for 90% of humanity.
I appreciate the discussion here.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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Ew. I hope that's not the motivation for most Christians!
I believe in it because it's part of the faith which has been handed down, it agrees with the plain sense of Scripture, and it seems to me to be the logical effect of having free will which is really free.
I would love to be wrong. I would love for everyone to be saved, even the Devil.
(I believe that God would also love for everyone to be saved.)
What makes the most sense to me is that the door to Hell is locked on the inside, with a perpetual/eternal/continuous "no, I won't!" on the part of the damned.
As well, what makes sense to me is the idea that the flames and pain and torment are not some added invention of God's (here's where the lake of fire goes, next to the ash pit where we keep the giant killer voles, etc.), but the experience of being immersed in God's love and still rejecting it, so what would normally be ecstatic joy and light and bliss instead burns.
Posted by Green Mario (# 18090) on
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Belle Ringer - I think the main reason why some Christians seem to "like" hell is that they feel a sense of righteousness that they are being true to the bible no matter how far it takes them away from their natural inclinations or what makes logical sense to human reason.
I guess their may also be a desire for justice but I can't see how eternal conscious suffering fits that, even for Hitler let alone for ordinary unrepentant sinners.
I go for Annihilation/ conditional immortality although more because I think this can be taken from the biblical texts and I think it is a far more palatable choice that seems more consistent with God being a God of love rather than because I think the scriptural basis for this position is water tight; universalism is attractive but I really can't see how this can be arrived at from the entirety of the New Testament.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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Belle Ringer, that point about sulphur had never struck me! And it should, because of something I'm interested in in the Odyssey, where sulphur appears twice. Once where the sinning crew are destroyed, and then again where Odysseus burns it to purify the hall after the massacre of the suitors (again sinners). Of course, in these instances, the sinners are not being prepared for salvation. The lot of them get to go down as shades into Hades. (Both lots have sinned against the laws of hospitality, the crew by exceeding the permission to stay on the island of Helios and killing and eating his herds, the suitors by doing much the same with Odysseus' home. Only just noticed that symmetry, irrelevant here.)
It isn't just used spiritually for cleansing, of course. Sulphur candles are burned in greenhouses to fumigate them.
I wonder how much the brimstone was borrowed from surrounding beliefs - and nearby volcanoes, the source of the stuff of course. (Brimstone because it forms on the edges of gas vents in volcanic areas.)
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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And a different thought, more on the thread track. After seeing our C&W friend playing with words, I wonder if there's an association between societies which focus on hell in this way, and those which find it appropriate to use "enhanced interrogation techniques".
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
After seeing our C&W friend playing with words
I literally have no idea what this means or who it refers to. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Thanks. I've heard about it and will probably have time to watch it tonight. All I've had time for this morning is this.
The link in this.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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Oh, Country and Western!!! Thank you. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I think what I've picked up here (and web-surfing) is two reasons, maybe three, some Christians like hell.
1. Desire for revenge. Those nasty people who did bad stuff to me (lied to me, hit and run my car, etc) may get away with it short term but they are going to SUFFER!
I'm not sure that my mother would have said this later in life but, aged 42ish, she told me that she was quite looking forward to being dead as she'd be able to sit in Heaven and look down on those who'd wronged her whilst they suffered eternal torment in Hell. I am sure that my vicar father would have been appalled at the concept - it certainly contributed to my pulling away from belief.
It is claimed that humanity is the only species that can fear imaginary situations - there are many businesses that have thrived on creating imaginary fears to which only they can provide, at a price, the antidote - some are considered to be religions.
ISTM that to think that a loving god would create subjects with the foreknowledge that they were going eternal torment requires some serious mental gymnastics - millions seem to have no problem with it though and it crops up fairly frequently as a recurrent sales point in certain evangelistic efforts
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on
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quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I think what I've picked up here (and web-surfing) is two reasons, maybe three, some Christians like hell.
1. Desire for revenge. Those nasty people who did bad stuff to me (lied to me, hit and run my car, etc) may get away with it short term but they are going to SUFFER!
I'm not sure that my mother would have said this later in life but, aged 42ish, she told me that she was quite looking forward to being dead as she'd be able to sit in Heaven and look down on those who'd wronged her whilst they suffered eternal torment in Hell. I am sure that my vicar father would have been appalled at the concept - it certainly contributed to my pulling away from belief.
It is claimed that humanity is the only species that can fear imaginary situations - there are many businesses that have thrived on creating imaginary fears to which only they can provide, at a price, the antidote - some are considered to be religion.
ISTM that to think that a loving god would create subjects with the foreknowledge that they were going eternal torment requires some serious mental gymnastics - millions seem to have no problem with it though and it crops up fairly frequently as a recurrent sales point in certain evangelistic efforts
I don' think that there are many people that like Hell or the thought of It,I have never met any of them, and I certainly don't, but people believe in it because it is in the Bible, Jesus talks of Hell and He was speaking to his disciples. An evavngelist if he is true to the Bible must preach about sin and the consequences of sin and the need for repentance, which is left out of a lot of today's preaching. You can't just dismiss it because it is not a popular subject.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
]I don' think that there are many people that like Hell or the thought of It,I have never met any of them, and I certainly don't, but people believe in it because it is in the Bible, Jesus talks of Hell and He was speaking to his disciples. An evavngelist if he is true to the Bible must preach about sin and the consequences of sin and the need for repentance, which is left out of a lot of today's preaching. You can't just dismiss it because it is not a popular subject.
And yet Jesus mentions hell precisely four times. Four. While spending virtually his entire ministry speaking on the Kingdom of heaven. Hundreds of references to the Kingdom, four re hell. So where should his followers place the emphasis in their teaching & preaching?
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
]I don' think that there are many people that like Hell or the thought of It,I have never met any of them, and I certainly don't, but people believe in it because it is in the Bible, Jesus talks of Hell and He was speaking to his disciples...
And yet Jesus mentions hell precisely four times. Four. While spending virtually his entire ministry speaking on the Kingdom of heaven. Hundreds of references to the Kingdom, four re hell. So where should his followers place the emphasis in their teaching & preaching?
I cannot claim to have finished my study of hell, considering that a lifetime of being taught to read the Bible as saying death and hell is the overwhelming victor, Jesus manages to rescue only a few - it is going to take a long time to rethink and re-decide (re-affirm, modify, or reverse) what I think is going on.
But the image of fire is used in the Bible so often to indicate God's presence, why couldn't that be true of Hell-fire? I know some think "justice" mean "punishment" but there are whole other meanings, like restitution, reconciliation, healing of the anguish/anger that drove a person to do evil and healing the pain resulting from the evil - these sound more like God's values than infliction of maximum pain for no purpose but to cause suffering.
But mostly, what's the Revelation trying to show us? Jesus died and was resurrected to save all the world, but he failed in his mission?
And if pagans believe their dead are no longer existing, how is it good news to tell them "your loved ones aren't just dead, they are suffering terrible torment forever!" That's GOOD NEWS!?
So when I read that the concept of "eternal" hell is not in the Bible anywhere, OT has no sense of death leading to torment, NT occasionally mentions an "age of chastisement" but not "an eternity of torment" - well, I have a lot of study still to do! Wish I knew Greek instead of depending on lexicons.
Oh well, the question for tonight's gathering is how to indicate I'm not sure I buy the concept of eternal torment, and do it in a way that generates discussion instead to causing minds to slam shut with the accusation I've heard elsewhere - "if you don't believe in Hell you go to Hell."
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
I go for Annihilation/ conditional immortality although more because I think this can be taken from the biblical texts and I think it is a far more palatable choice that seems more consistent with God being a God of love rather than because I think the scriptural basis for this position is water tight; universalism is attractive but I really can't see how this can be arrived at from the entirety of the New Testament.
It does appear to me, as well, that the scriptures teach conditional immortality. The gift of God is eternal life and the lost are tossed into the gaping maw to be destroyed. I suspect it may look something like what happened to Smeagol.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And if pagans believe their dead are no longer existing
I don't think I've known any pagans who believe that way; many believe in some form of reincarnation.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And if pagans believe their dead are no longer existing
I don't think I've known any pagans who believe that way; many believe in some form of reincarnation.
Did ancient Romans and ancient Greeks believe in reincarnation? (I'm asking, I don't know, my high school mythology course didn't mention reincarnation, but lots of other stuff wasn't mentioned either.)
Using the word "pagan" as I understand it to include all non-Christians, most of my atheist friends are pagans and they believe death is just the end. In fact, most were reared in "Christan" households and rejected the cruel god they were taught, that's why they became atheists. Telling them to believe their loved ones are in perpetual torment would not be welcomed as good news!
Doesn't Paul say something about pagans deep sorrow about death of a loved one but we know better? If what we know is that most dead people suffer terribly, we should be more miserable at a loved one's death, not less!
Anyway, tonight at the Bible study bunch was interesting, basically they said God's primarily value is judgment, love and mercy are just secondary values. And they said judgment means punishment, not reconciliation. I guess we are suppose to love and bless our enemies while God tortures his enemies, and we are not supposed to imitate God's values?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
[QUOTE]
Anyway, tonight at the Bible study bunch was interesting, basically they said God's primarily value is judgment, love and mercy are just secondary values. And they said judgment means punishment, not reconciliation. I guess we are suppose to love and bless our enemies while God tortures his enemies, and we are not supposed to imitate God's values?
Not the first time, but your church makes me ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Did ancient Romans and ancient Greeks believe in reincarnation? (I'm asking, I don't know, my high school mythology course didn't mention reincarnation, but lots of other stuff wasn't mentioned either.)
Actually I'm referring to contemporary pagans. People who self-identify as pagans, basically.
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Using the word "pagan" as I understand it to include all non-Christians
That's not current usage, alas.
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Telling them to believe their loved ones are in perpetual torment would not be welcomed as good news!
Agreed!
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Anyway, tonight at the Bible study bunch was interesting, basically they said God's primarily value is judgment, love and mercy are just secondary values. And they said judgment means punishment, not reconciliation. I guess we are suppose to love and bless our enemies while God tortures his enemies, and we are not supposed to imitate God's values?
I'm sorry, but have you thought of looking for another church?
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Did ancient Romans and ancient Greeks believe in reincarnation? (I'm asking, I don't know, my high school mythology course didn't mention reincarnation, but lots of other stuff wasn't mentioned either.)
It was one of a range of options: quote:
Among the ancient Greeks, the Orphic mystery religion held that a preexistent soul survives bodily death and is later reincarnated in a human or other mammalian body, eventually receiving release from the cycle of birth and death and regaining its former pure state. Plato, in the 5th–4th century bce, believed in an immortal soul that participates in frequent incarnations.
- "reincarnation." Britannica School. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 2014. Web. 19 Aug. 2014. <http://library.eb.co.uk/levels/adult/article/63098>.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Anyway, tonight at the Bible study bunch was interesting, basically they said God's primarily value is judgment, love and mercy are just secondary values. And they said judgment means punishment, not reconciliation.
Not the first time, but your church makes me
Not a church, just a Bible study bunch I've been on and off attending for a dozen years. Recent change of leadership has affected topic choices. I'm debating whether to fade away or stick around to throw in my 2 cents occasionally.
The prior leader showed up, mostly kept quiet, spoke up near the end to say most of the popular concept of hell is from Dante's Inferno, not from the Bible. The others are convinced the Bible says Hell was made for Satan and that means it was given to Satan to rule. I didn't realize some think dualism is plainly stated in the Bible!
Worth knowing what (some) people think the Bible teaches. Not their fault, they get it from their preachers.
As to why people need to believe in eternal torment, the idea that God is primarily about judgment indicates their preachers wrestle with how can eternal torment be consistent with a love never ends God. Concluding that love is not God's dominant characteristic is one way to resolve the conflict. I think it's the wrong way, but at least they are admitting to the conflict.
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[ 19. August 2014, 19:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on
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by Cliffdweller;
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And yet Jesus mentions hell precisely four times. Four. While spending virtually his entire ministry speaking on the Kingdom of heaven. Hundreds of references to the Kingdom, four re hell. So where should his followers place the emphasis in their teaching & preaching?
This is perhaps not entirely accurate - Jesus only uses the word 'hell' four times, but refers quite a bit more often to equivalent ideas, e.g., losing your soul, or 'condemnation'. And I don't think the Son of God would make such references if he didn't take them seriously himself, if he didn't believe some kind of loss of the soul was possible and that we need to be warned against it.
On the other hand -
- the imagery of 'Gehenna' may be less about literal fire etc., and more about the reality that Gehenna was an unholy place that had become a rubbish tip, with fires that destroyed but also purified
- this point about 'imagery' is probably true of most of the references to the loss suffered by the wicked; that is, it is imagery and should not be interpreted with crass literalness.
There is an issue here often unrecognised - that the people who throw most scorn on the concept of hell are often precisely those who most resist the idea that God should coercively change them; but put simply, if people choose to be unfit for heaven, while claiming it would be immoral for God to change them against their will ... what can be done with them?
And secondary to that, there is an issue of justice - another of those aspects that Jesus does talk about; for the unrepentant there is surely a perfectly proper issue of 'paying for their sins'. Some of the imagery may be just that - the imagery of our world - but again would Jesus talk of that as he did unless he intended it ultimately to be taken seriously?
And to keep the balance that Cliffdweller suggests, a key passage must surely be from John 3, just after the well-known v 16 "This is the verdict (or 'judgement') that the Light has come into the world and people have loved the darkness more than the Light...."
Posted by pimple (# 10635) on
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Fear of Hell does produce converts. I once attended the baptism by total immersion of one poor fellow who had had the misfortune to see a friend who had recently died in hospital.
The friend had died in some pain and nobody at the hospital warned him that his face would show this.
When he saw his friend he "knew" he had gone to hell, and had no wish to join him there. This is a précis of his own words, delivered as a testimony before his baptism.
I have every confidence that the pastor who officiated at the baptism would subsequently have looked after the man with compassion, and hopefully explained in due course that seeing is sometimes believing incorrectly.
[ 19. August 2014, 21:20: Message edited by: pimple ]
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
if people choose to be unfit for heaven, while claiming it would be immoral for God to change them against their will ... what can be done with them?
I'm newly thinking "purgatory" might be a better understanding than "eternal hell." Stay in a place of purification/re-education (not everlasting torture!) until you of your own free will decide you would like to become the kind of person who delights in heaven. If you never decide that, one concept of "hell" is a place God lovingly invented for those who would dislike heaven. I think C.S.Lewis said the door handle is on the inside. No one is locked in hell against their will, it's an ongoing choice to stay away from heaven.
A hell that (by whatever means) invites you to recognize the self-destruction inherent in your ways (sin) and invites you to experience the beauty and love of God (fire imagery representing God's presence), and which you can leave as soon as you are eager to live in what heavenly society is, is very different from a hell that is inescapable even if you at some point genuinely repent and desire to know God. There are possibilities in between "everyone goes to heaven immediately" and "most of the world are locked up in forever torment" quote:
there is an issue of justice...'paying for their sins'.
Punishment is not justice. If I rob you, you are out money, you are unhappy. If justice means I go to prison, I am unhappy, too. We now have two unhappy people instead of one, the world is worse off! How is increasing total pain "justice"?
True justice is healing, restoring, reconciling. It involves me repaying you so you are no longer hurt. (Or maybe God repaying you because I can't, I spent the money.) It involves healing whatever need or pain caused me to steal from you instead of me appreciating you as an image of God.
I think God's concept of justice is all about healing - correcting/training/teaching/re-educating etc yes, but also reconciling/restoring/renewing. That's why we are told over and over to forgive, to love our enemies, instead of told to seek revenge. Be wise as serpents in the process, not doormats for wrongdoers, but look for ways to promote maximum good instead of looking for a "justice" that multiplies the amount of total harm.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Originally posted by ChastMastr:
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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And if pagans believe their dead are no longer existing
I don't think I've known any pagans who believe that way; many believe in some form of reincarnation.
There are many, many different types of Paganism (and yes it needs the capital letter - it is a proper religion). It's not the same as witchcraft or Wicca, but neither are they mutually exclusive - many people follow two or all of them. Some believe in reincarnation, but most I've come across are followers of Norse or Hellenic deities and do not believe in reincarnation.
Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on
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by Belle Ringer;
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quote:
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there is an issue of justice...'paying for their sins'.
Punishment is not justice. If I rob you, you are out money, you are unhappy. If justice means I go to prison, I am unhappy, too. We now have two unhappy people instead of one, the world is worse off! How is increasing total pain "justice"?
I carefully used the phrase 'paying for their sins' to indicate that I do not believe in a merely arbitrary and negative 'retributive punishment' such as we often see in this world ('going to prison' for example, which does not benefit the original victim). I am conceiving a situation in which the wrongdoer is held responsible to pay in a situation more akin to payment of debt. I believe that once we accept a supernatural/beyond-this-world element, God's justice can achieve things our mere human justice cannot (though imperfect human justice may still be better than nothing in this life).
The problem is, of course, that to the wrongdoer determined to carry on in his own selfish way, God's healing and purifying work may appear to be 'torture/torment/etc' and destructive rather than reparative.
I think I would currently hold a view of 'ultimate annihilation for all practical purposes' as the fate of the ultimately unrepentant.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There are many, many different types of Paganism (and yes it needs the capital letter - it is a proper religion). It's not the same as witchcraft or Wicca, but neither are they mutually exclusive - many people follow two or all of them. Some believe in reincarnation, but most I've come across are followers of Norse or Hellenic deities and do not believe in reincarnation.
I'd say the capital letter depends--paganism can be a broad category which includes Wicca, Asatru, the various reconstructionist groups, etc. but some self-identified Pagans can spell it with a capital P. There can be paganism contrasted with monotheism, and Paganism contrasted with, say, Lutheranism.
Most of the ones I know are Wiccans, myself.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Belle Ringer
I really, REALLY hope ... and pray right here right now - Father - that you find a broader, deeper fellowship, not abandoning the one you're with necessarily. But one on your doorstep. A community church, one that serves the needy, bears burdens. One that has inclusive, liberal members, inclusive of conservatives.
I know, WE know, my wife and I, how lonely it can be, for years in a large, inner-city commuter church. A charismatic-evangelical one. I ran the outreach to the hungry. Still go. When I ran it I was powerless - don't ask - to stop other volunteers showing a bizarre video, for weeks it seemed, of a guy's vision of heaven and hell after being stung by a box jelly fish.
Everyone loved it. I despaired. As I did of ever being able to talk about any of this in a church of 750 people.
We now go across the road, to an English village church, we have more friends than we know what to do with, a house group, a men's group, barbecues, we walk to each others homes. The gay couple are leaving for pastures new but I hope to see them this weekend at Greenbelt for Brian McLaren and Nadia Bolz-Weber.
There IS space out there beyond the constraints of literalism where Jesus meets too.
Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on
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There are 3 words for Hell in the NT. They are not the same place. I doubt anyone is yet in the 'lake of fire' or rubbish tip Jesus spoke once of.
In the Jellyfish man's NDE (Ian McCormack) he was in a dark place of waiting, before he got pulled out. I don't recall him mentioning demons gleefully punishing people in prison cells ! Probably something like Hades. The 23 minutes in hell seems like Dante's inferno which is what makes me more suspicious. This is not a common NDE description of 'hell'.
Most NDE'ers are very altruistic as a result of their experience. Ian McCormack does not make money off his talks or resources. For example he states on his website :
"We do not personally sell or handle the distribution of my salvation testimony. However, we know of some ministries that do. We do not receive any royalties from the sale of these videos, books or tapes, and do not set a price on them. There is NO copyright … which means you can freely copy them for friends."
Which makes me a lot less skeptical of his motives than some other NDE accounts that are at odds with most of the other accounts, and are made by people who are also making a shed load of money out of their story...
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We now go across the road, to an English village church, we have more friends than we know what to do with, a house group, a men's group, barbecues, we walk to each others homes. The gay couple are leaving for pastures new but I hope to see them this weekend at Greenbelt for Brian McLaren and Nadia Bolz-Weber.
There IS space out there beyond the constraints of literalism where Jesus meets too.
So you've moved church, finally! The new place sounds more suitable for you. I remember when you said that the more liberal churches weren't viable, but clearly they are, in the right areas.
I hope your old church community was gracious when you left.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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The new ain't liberal! It's just wiser, broader, inclusive: the epitome of Anglican. The former isn't, being char-evo and no, grace was lacking, all round I'm afraid, but I still work with them most Fridays.
[ 20. August 2014, 21:08: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Belle Ringer
I really, REALLY hope ... and pray right here right now - Father - that you find a broader, deeper fellowship, not abandoning the one you're with necessarily. But one on your doorstep. A community church, one that serves the needy, bears burdens. One that has inclusive, liberal members, inclusive of conservatives.
Thank you Martin. This group's assumed theology and topic interests narrowed with change of leadership - I've seen that happen in churches, too, new guy/gal has a different viewpoint or agenda that some love and others find uncomfortable. I've sensed it's time to look around; well functioning small groups are usually informally organic and don't advertise for others to come join them, but God can open ways.
Posted by PDA (# 16531) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Bible study bunch watched a DVD, 23 minutes in hell, about a supposed near death experience-like trip to hell, the DVD is also on YouTube. I was having fun trying to catch all the unBiblical imagery and mis-used verses (including his translating every Old Testament reference to the place of the dead as Hell which he equates with the iron-barred burning-hot demon-infested place he "visited").
At the end, my reaction to the portrayal of a god who arranges for some of his sensate creatures to spend endless forever being tortured in multiple ways beyond the worse dealings by human despots, beyond the imagination of Stephen King, my reaction was "that's not the God I know." Not even a family resemblance. If I thought that was God, I would have no admiration for or desire to imitate god!
What really intrigued me - several in the group loved it, want to buy copies to show it to their unsaved friends.
Do people really think a person who is unsure if there is any god would be attracted to a god who is portrayed as the kind of personality we would judge in any human as criminal or insane?
Has fear of hell ever converted anyone to believe in a God of love your neighbor?
I'm not wanting to debate here "does hell exist" but the more immediate this-world question of whether non-believers in god get convinced by Bible spouting videos that hell is real, and convert to theism as a result?
I firmly believe that if there were such a place it would be freezing cold rather than burning hot.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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The video "23 minutes in hell" is an interesting study in proof-texting to the extreme (in my opinion). Assuming he really did have a nightmare (as opposed to discovering hell sells and making it all up to get on the circuit), he did a lot of looking for support in the Bible, and "finding" it.
For example, like most supposed reports of hell I've seen, he's got reptilian looking tormenters (I'm feeling sorry for God's reptiles being accused of demonic appearance). His are 12 to 13 feet tall, he want's Biblical justification for such big creatures, so goes back to that odd statement in Genesis about sons of God breeding with daughters of man and there were giants in the earth, as proof that 13 foot creatures are real - as if the women were birthing reptiles? Heck, we've got taller creatures right here - giraffes for example, but I guess they don't look as denomic as over-sized reptiles.
He also says "most commentators" agree the "sons of God" are demons. I was under the impression most commentators say "don't know what it means."
He's desperate for flaming hell to be all over the Bible so every mention in the OT of the grave he translates "Hell."
How does one prove such things wrong or at least far from certainly right? Sigh.
I learned a couple decades ago a person can say more wrong in 5 minutes than I can research in 5 hours. How many commentators would you have to read to verify or disprove any one of his many "most commentators agree" statements? Not worth the effort, and wouldn't convince those who like what he says.
A free course I took on line said we make decisions based on emotions, then add facts to justify our decisions. (It was a short course and may have over-stated to make it's points quickly.) Raging eternal hell obviously has emotional appeal for some people or these books/DVDs wouldn't sell so well to people who do NOT respond by dropping all else to help "unsaved" neighbors escape the tortures portrayed, but instead go buy the next DVD on hell.
Maybe it's the appeal of adrenaline? Daily life can get dull, fear (from a safe distance) raises adrenaline which makes us feel alive?
I'm done with Hell for now, but the discussion and my resulting research did turn me into a universalist - God wins, totally (not just partially), all creation are redeemed, all nations healed by the leaves of the tree. Interesting how sometimes preaching gets the opposite effect from what was intended!
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on
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ISTM, people "go" to Hell of their own volition. God doesn't "send" them there. I've thought a lot about this subject over the years and have come to my own way of thinking on it. If I lived my entire life as a selfish, evil/nasty person: Gossiping endlessly and always looking to cut other people down, undermine them at every turn, back stab them, lie about it, etc. etc and I see no problem with this and live my life accordingly, when I die I'm certainly not going to be all that thrilled to be in the presence of a God who is complete love, outpouring joy, peace, goodwill, etc. I would find that repugnant and want to be as far away from that as possible. I would want to be with others of my "kind", i.e. the gossipers, the liars, the thieves, the backbiters, the killers of other people's spirits and their lives. So, maybe during my long life of living in this fashion, someone tried to turn me away from this path, tried to tell me about a God of Love and Mercy. If I had no inclination towards goodness, I'd probably laugh in the person's face. Now, if this same person told me that I was headed for Hell unless I turned away from my sinful life, would I change or would I scoff at them? What if, on the other hand, I did a lot of these things but I knew they were wrong and I had this vague uneasiness concerning Hell? What if those well-meaning folks kept reminding me of Hell?
To make this long-ass post a tad bit shorter, I will admit that I was in a very bad way, back in my twenties. I stole, lied, cheated, back-stabbed, gossiped...I was a nasty little piece of work. What changed me wasn't the threat of Hell but someone (a friend who is a nun) who loved me, in spite of myself, saw the good in me and was Jesus for me when the very name of Jesus made me want to either run and hide or give Him the finger. Yes, I really was that immature. So, no threats of hellfire brought me back into the "fold". It was Jesus, acting through my friend who loved me enough just as I was and helped me to want to change my ways to conform to His ways.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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And so it will be for James Foley's butcher in the next life.
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