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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is it a crime to be single?
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Maybe I've simply been unlucky, but on Facebook I've seen a lot of rejoicing that Cliff Richard is being investigated by the police. The crowd around the tumbrils grows with each new celebrity named by Yewtree, but there seems to be particular gloating about Richard. When pressed, some people seem to be saying, "Well, you could always tell he was weird - he's in his 70s and he's still single".
This is a separate issue as to whether Richard is guilty of anything. Personally I hope he is innocent but, if he has done something wrong, then I hope he will be punished by the due process of the law. Innocent until proven guilty seems to be disappearing in the public glee over paedophilia, and being single is the witches' mark that shows you are evil.
Quite likely I'm over reacting, but there's a lot of stuff around at the moment which I'm finding disturbing. Let me make this clear - I don't think anyone is above the law, and if anyone is found guilty of molesting children then I am horrified by what they have done and believe they should be punished. But being investigated by the police is not the same as having done anything wrong. And when did being single become so suspicious?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
For someone of his age and religious background, it would tend to be a flag for being in the closet. Given that he says he is not gay, and has had girlfriends, it is surprising that he has not found a partner, as his celebrity would give him more choice in that regard than most.
I'd like to believe that he is simply one of life's innocents, a decent man who put marriage on such a high pedestal he never quite felt he could commit to it, and strong enough in his faith to not succumb to the temptation of engaging in sex outside of marriage. Such people are rare, however, particularly among those who have as much fame as Sir Cliff. I hope the allegation turn out to be false.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
For someone of his age and religious background, it would tend to be a flag for being in the closet.
Really? I find that an odd comment.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
The OP not only raises the general issue of singlehood but the specific case of Cliff Richard. Especially given the way the OP is framed, there should be plenty to talk about without speculating about potential illegal past activities.
Moreover, please remember that the Ship of Fools takes a very cautious line on issues which potentially may expose us to legal action.
Therefore, in addition to respecting the Commandments, Guidelines and FAQs as usual, please take special care not to post anything that might be grounds for libel.
The hosts will delete anything that they deem too close to the line of legally acceptable. If it becomes necessary to repeatedly edit or delete contributions along these lines, this thread will be closed.
/hosting
[ 16. August 2014, 07:10: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
For someone of his age and religious background, it would tend to be a flag for being in the closet.
Really? I find that an odd comment.
I'm with Arethosemyfeet - I've always assumed that, because of Sir Cliff's very public Christian Evangelical image, he was unable to come out as gay, certainly years ago when it would have been unthinkable. And, even today, there are large swathes of Evangelicals who have a massive problem with the mere existence of homosexuality, let alone someone so famous actually being gay. What about the sportsmen and women who can't come out?
[ 16. August 2014, 06:54: Message edited by: Wild Organist ]
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Posts: 50 | From: West Sussex | Registered: May 2007
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
In general there's now a suspicion that old single people are closeted gays. Some of them might have been, but there have always been people who are single, or had only clandestine informal heterosexual relationships.
I think what the OP might be talking about is a loss of innocence of the public. People always suspect the single, but it's only now more common to talk about loves that dare not speak their name.
As an example of same as it ever was there's the classic Marty Feldman routine Funny he never married
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
For someone of his age and religious background, it would tend to be a flag for being in the closet.
Really? I find that an odd comment.
There isn't a tradition of celibate religious life among evangelicals that I'm aware of, apart from that strongly encouraged for gay people. Evangelicalism also strongly encourages marriage for everyone, regardless of orientation. That Sir Cliff evaded that pressure is unusual and his being primarily attracted to men (even if he doesn't self-define as gay) is one very plausible explanation for that.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I would suggest being single is a rather poor indicator of a persons sexuality, otherwise how does one account for things like this? I'm sure that's not the only example one could dig up either. There could be any number of reasons, all legitimate, why a Christian (even of the Evangelical kind) might remain single.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Don't make this about being gay (or not). Believe me, it's increasingly a "crime" to be single in the UK gay community. You can't go anywhere just now without some smug queens flaunting their married status. Singleness is becoming a pathological personality deficit.
And in reply to the OP, yes it is tantamount to a crime in some people's minds. Try being 50, single, and a CofE priest. You're sometimes made to feel that your natural peer support group can be found living under a stone in the garden.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Don't make this about being gay (or not). Believe me, it's increasingly a "crime" to be single in the UK gay community. You can't go anywhere just now without some smug queens flaunting their married status. Singleness is becoming a pathological personality deficit.
It's increasingly a crime to be single, full stop. If you've been single for more than a few months, people start looking askance at you - there must be something wrong with you, or you must be hiding some non-mainstream form of sexual expression. They rarely ever allow for the fact that someone might be single because:
- They genuinely never did meet the right person. Sometimes it's just bad luck, sometimes it's because some people have a mental list of criteria or an ideal, and if you do you'll proably have to wait longer than the average to find someone who ticks all the boxes.
- They simply aren't that bothered about sex. Some people genuinely don't feel much urge to get laid, others feel none at all. Expecting a regular sexual relationship from people in this category is likely to be cruel to both parties.
- They don't feel emotionally equipped for a relationship - the thought of seeing the same person over the breakfast table for the next 50 years, taking on the commitment of buying a house together, having children, being prepared to nurse that person in old age when they start to develop Parkinsons and so on, all the sorts of things that go with commitment are a big step and it isn't for everybody. It's not compulsory and if someone doesn't want to take that on, fair enough, they have the right to live their life how they please.
- They like the freedom of being by themselves. There can be a relief and joy in having your own space long-term, not being tied to doing most things with the same person and being accountable to them/checking with them before you make social or travel arrangements, etc.
- They may have been badly hurt in a previous relationship and decided they've had enough. That probably falls into the category of "something wrong with them" but it can turn into a well-adjusted independence, given time and if some thought is put into coming to terms with it.
- They may have strong enough religious views that they've decided privately to commit to God and that may include celibacy. It's nobody else's business but their own; it's between them and God, they don't owe the world an explanation.
- They'd actually like to be in a relationship but lack of confidence holds them back. If you think you have nothing to offer, you look awful and are boring, this will come across and your chances of dating will be definitely reduced.
- They work long hours, and when they finally do manage to meet up with that online date in reality, may not present themselves at their best.
- They may be short of money and desperately trying to make both ends meet, and with the best will in the world, very few people are likely to want to foot the bill for both every time they go out, or settle for the alternative of staying in watching television night after night.
But the world judges by appearances and if you don't have someone in your life, or worse, still, don't want to, then there must be something wrong with you. Old maids and bachelors were a known and accepted part of society a century ago, and are likely to become so again as single-person households are on the increase.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
I find being almost middle aged (not sure when middle age "officially" starts) and single, and also without children in a church community is strange. Not so much cos of other peoples opinions but because other single people are typically either much younger, or much older and widowed, or those closer to my age and single have children so I'm not really part of any particular group.
Ariel is right, there are many reasons people can be single. Looking at my friends, I'm not the only single person in my age group, I had thought it was becoming more common over the years but I may be wrong.
[ 16. August 2014, 08:47: Message edited by: Chocoholic ]
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Well, I'm 63, never married, though came close a couple of times. My closest friends are either widowed, divorced and/or, like me, on the other side of non marital (heterosexual) relationships. This is not just because we're all 60+ - the widow lost her husband to leukemia at the age of 30.
It used to be said that the live in relationships we had at UNI were the equivalent of that first marriage which then broke up. But I do know of at least two other never marrieds from my own year at school. I wonder if being brought up RC could have anything to do with it?
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I rather thought we Westerners were now in an era whereby being single is regarded as positively OK. Surely the *being married* concept is something of a traditional, (Christian), expectation . Didn't think that secularism was much bothered about it .
As for witch-hunts and trial by IT ? This is indeed becoming an increasingly disturbing phenomenon . The fall-out from the savile debacle is going to take a long long time to go away . Thinking back though this paedo-paranoia is nothing new . There was that infamous 'name and shame' business , a time in the 90's when self-appointed vigilantes deemed it acceptable to drive single males of their choosing out of their locality .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
But I do know of at least two other never marrieds from my own year at school. I wonder if being brought up RC could have anything to do with it?
It does in my case. But although single-person households are becoming more common, the default expectation, not just in the West, but anywhere else, is that you're part of a couple, or if you're single that you're actively striving to be part of a couple or have only recently broken up from being part of a couple.
Whatever the reality, it will be a long time before the world catches up on this and making allowances for single people becomes more mainstream. This is especially true where holidays are concerned - the single-room supplement is still very much the rule, and 99.9% of the offers you see for bargain holidays at attractive prices have in the small print "based on 2 sharing, single room supplement may apply" and you can bet that that £250 bargain rate for a couple, which works out nicely for them at £125 each, will work out at probably just under £250 for you as a single traveller or even more.
Being single isn't a crime but you don't half get penalized financially for it sometimes.
[ 16. August 2014, 10:01: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Not to mention how it is much harder to get a mortgage on 1 salary.
And the government is set to further widen the gap by giving tax incentives to married people.
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
I am single and gay, and have had a couple of relationships over the decades, but for the last eight years I have been carer for ageing parents and working full time with a mortgage and so on. I just dont have the time to find a relationship!
Perhaps I am lucky in that my colleagues, friends and neighbours know the situation.
However, those widowed and thus newly single can face suspicion when socialising, in that, as a single, they might be trying to poach partners. I seem to recall reading about it in a mag for the over 50s. A bit off the original post, but a related problem.
Why should singles be presumed to be in search of someone? No-one would put up with my snore.
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Posts: 50 | From: West Sussex | Registered: May 2007
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Macchias
Apprentice
# 18192
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Posted
Addressing the OP, Cliff Richard has been extremely popular since the sixties and from memory the news at that time that he preferred to remain celibate, for the era was obviously met with some confusion or disbelief.
However, since then, through the decades and despite the rumours that he was gay and quite rightly he was accepted and loved by many. His christianity was taken seriously and the British population took him to their hearts.
I don't think in any way that you can suggest that as a single man throughout his life and now in his 70s he has been thought to be committing a 'crime'. Or even capable of doing so.
Indeed, I think you'll find that the vast majority of people are praying that this investigation is proved to be totally unfounded, a signal of high highly - whatever your music tastes - he is held in regard.
Posts: 3 | From: Southport | Registered: Aug 2014
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think British culture is wary of people who never seem to be in a relationship of any length, but there isn't an obsession with marriage as such. Celebrities are under more pressure, perhaps, because a celebrity wedding is a news story and a PR gift. For ordinary non-religious folk, though, a wedding is an optional extravaganza.
As for church circles, there does seem to be a bit of awkwardness around unmarried, unbetrothed middle aged people. This is true even in MOTR environments, where on the whole there are too few nubile males for all the single women present. (My ex-minister used to drop hints about me 'finding someone'.)
Essentially, the unpartnered, childless middle aged woman is useful to the church for her labour, but she isn't the 'target customer', so to speak.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I rather thought we Westerners were now in an era whereby being single is regarded as positively OK. Surely the *being married* concept is something of a traditional, (Christian), expectation . Didn't think that secularism was much bothered about it .
Being married is not necessarily the thing, but being single is also not really acceptable. There is an assumption of being "in a relationship" of some sort.
If not in a relationship, you must be looking for a partner of some sort - short of long term. To be not particularly interested in partnering up is considered weird. The implication is that your sexual orientation is odd or unnatural.
Cliff suffers from the same problem that so many other stars do, that there are those who want to bring him down. His faith is another reason that people want to prove he is a fraud. It is because the model of life he demonstrates - single, happy, with a strong faith - is one that seems unacceptable, unreasonable.
Personally, I think his music sucks, but as a person, I have huge respect for him. He has his faith, and he keeps it despite everything. Good on him. As long as he doesn't release any more music.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I rather thought we Westerners were now in an era whereby being single is regarded as positively OK. Surely the *being married* concept is something of a traditional, (Christian), expectation . Didn't think that secularism was much bothered about it .
You're confusing 'single' with 'not married'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
For someone of his age and religious background, it would tend to be a flag for being in the closet.
Really? I find that an odd comment.
There isn't a tradition of celibate religious life among evangelicals that I'm aware of, apart from that strongly encouraged for gay people. Evangelicalism also strongly encourages marriage for everyone, regardless of orientation.
John Stott?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I would suggest being single is a rather poor indicator of a persons sexuality, otherwise how does one account for things like this? I'm sure that's not the only example one could dig up either. There could be any number of reasons, all legitimate, why a Christian (even of the Evangelical kind) might remain single.
I think people give a lot of pain to others by speculating on the causes why they never married. We had a man in his late 70s in our congregation (a German-American, not a Vietnamese) who apparently bore this kind of speculation in silence for years and years--but he wept with gratitude when my husband mentioned in a sermon, just in passing, that there are people who stay unmarried due to obligations that make it impossible. His had to do with the lifelong care of his mother, who was unusually dependent.
Since then I have done my best never to speculate on such questions. You don't want to see Germans weep, trust me.
[ 16. August 2014, 14:23: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I rather thought we Westerners were now in an era whereby being single is regarded as positively OK. Surely the *being married* concept is something of a traditional, (Christian), expectation . Didn't think that secularism was much bothered about it .
What orfeo said: not single =\= married
But also, it is about human nature. We like to know, or think we know, who other people are. And the default status is relationship, either in or pursuing. So those who do not appear to be doing so are suspect to some. We do not truly tolerate other very well.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
LC's man might also have had to deal with the "he lives with his mother" slight. I had to write to the Guardian once about a piece by Mark Lawson which was wicked about such people, and had a very good letter back. So many men have had to give up even a solitary single life because of caring for a parent, and then are faced with the implication that there is something very, very wrong with them. I suggested that it was the last group that it was OK to be critical of, or use witch hunt language against.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You're confusing 'single' with 'not married'.
I meant single in terms of people living on their own . There are of course people living this way who choose to have short-term relationships, and there was a time when this would have been judged harshly by the finger waggers.
CR does seem to have been something of an oddity to the popular press, and I agree there have been some who've been gunning after him a long while . I also very much hope nothing comes from this investigation .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Will H
Shipmate
# 4178
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Posted
I'm sick of hearing politicians talk about hard working families. The first party to stick up for lazy single people will get my vote.
Posts: 56 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
Why should singles be presumed to be in search of someone? No-one would put up with my snore.
It's the usual thing that people don't believe other people aren't exactly like themselves and would be desperate for a mate.
As for your snore, I liked the quote of a woman about how CPAP changed the noise of her bed partner from the howl of a silverback gorilla to the quiet bubbling of an aquarium. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
For someone of his age and religious background, it would tend to be a flag for being in the closet.
Really? I find that an odd comment.
There isn't a tradition of celibate religious life among evangelicals that I'm aware of, apart from that strongly encouraged for gay people. Evangelicalism also strongly encourages marriage for everyone, regardless of orientation.
John Stott?
I think evangelicalism (does it need a capital E? I'm never sure!) does generally strongly encourage marriage for everyone, but Stott would be an exception. I think it might be seen as more understandable in academics?
Celibacy is strongly encouraged in the Jesus Army and you need permission to date let alone marry, but they're hardly the norm for evangelicals.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
Originally posted by Ariel: quote:
It's increasingly a crime to be single, full stop. If you've been single for more than a few months, people start looking askance at you - there must be something wrong with you, or you must be hiding some non-mainstream form of sexual expression. They rarely ever allow for the fact that someone might be single because:
- They genuinely never did meet the right person. Sometimes it's just bad luck, sometimes it's because some people have a mental list of criteria or an ideal, and if you do you'll proably have to wait longer than the average to find someone who ticks all the boxes.
- They simply aren't that bothered about sex. Some people genuinely don't feel much urge to get laid, others feel none at all. Expecting a regular sexual relationship from people in this category is likely to be cruel to both parties.
- They don't feel emotionally equipped for a relationship - the thought of seeing the same person over the breakfast table for the next 50 years, taking on the commitment of buying a house together, having children, being prepared to nurse that person in old age when they start to develop Parkinsons and so on, all the sorts of things that go with commitment are a big step and it isn't for everybody. It's not compulsory and if someone doesn't want to take that on, fair enough, they have the right to live their life how they please.
- They like the freedom of being by themselves. There can be a relief and joy in having your own space long-term, not being tied to doing most things with the same person and being accountable to them/checking with them before you make social or travel arrangements, etc.
All of the above apply to me, still single in my fifties. Most of the time I don't even think about it, but then most of the time I don't socialise. A recent social engagement led me to realize that perhaps others don't see me in the same light as I imagine myself - free, independent, and happily single and childless.
There was a time when I hoped for a partner, and I don't rule out such a miracle occurring, but it's not the biggest priority in my life and never has been. Perhaps it hasn't been in Sir Cliff's, either?
I haven't come across people with an attitude that being single is a crime, but then the lack of socialising might have something to do with that, combined with obliviousness on my part to what other people think of me.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There are of course people living this way who choose to have short-term relationships, and there was a time when this would have been judged harshly by the finger waggers.
I have a friend like this, his relationships last - on average - a year. He never moves in with his partners but they always seem to part by mutual consent, no animosity. He remains friends with all of them, in fact they become best of friends to each other too.
I see no problem here at all.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Will H:
I'm sick of hearing politicians talk about hard working families. The first party to stick up for lazy single people will get my vote.
I'm sick of hearing politicians talk, full stop. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
People tend to assume that what makes them happy will make everyone else happy. And, given that all marriages are fabulous (snark alert), everyone should want one.
The one thing I find odd about the whole thing is that, last time I looked, the police were investigating a complaint. Given it was only a complaint, it seems weird that they informed the press. Even weirder that they informed the press but not, according to Cliff, him.
Surely investigations should remain private until charges are brought?!
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
A family member is single, which should be his business only. But I find I face increasingly intrusive questions from people about his personal life and you can hear the cogs turning as they process my answers. In this over-sexualised modern society, anyone who doesn't obviously have a partner is viewed as rather abnormal and, maybe, even rather dodgy. How sad.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Evangelicalism also strongly encourages marriage for everyone, regardless of orientation.
John Stott?
I know John Stott wasn't married - and I don't think he touches on this aspect of his life in his writings.
Did he though, encourage others to marry?
[please preview your posts for superfluous tags. I'm always removing [quote] tags from yours! Thanks]
[ 17. August 2014, 07:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Will H:
I'm sick of hearing politicians talk about hard working families. The first party to stick up for lazy single people will get my vote.
At our (Canada) last election, we had a choice between those who fought for families, fought for hard-working families, or who fought for Canadian families. One shipmate calls this the war against bachelors.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I know John Stott wasn't married - and I don't think he touches on this aspect of his life in his writings.
Did he though, encourage others to marry?
singleness (he doesn't use the term 'celibate) mentioned is mentioned in his ethics book Issues for Christians Today (I used this as my textbook when I was involved in training Readers.
He also argued strongly in favour of singleness and chastity for gay men in a head to head with my former vicar on a TV programme.
It's also mentioned in Timothy Dudley-Smith's lovely biography of him.
I don't know about anything about him encouraging others to marry - I think he simply encouraged people to discern God's will.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
The one thing I find odd about the whole thing is that, last time I looked, the police were investigating a complaint. Given it was only a complaint, it seems weird that they informed the press. Even weirder that they informed the press but not, according to Cliff, him.
Surely investigations should remain private until charges are brought?!
It doesn't seem to have been the police who informed the press, or at least not intentionally. According to the BBC website the BBC had a tip-off in advance that there was a police investigation going on, and their reporter was waiting when the police arrived at Cliff Richard's residence. South Yorkshire police are apparently making a formal complaint to the BBC about reporting it.
Of course it could still have been someone within the police who tipped the press off, but it certainly doesn't seem to have been done by the police as an organisation.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There is a huge emphasis on pairing up in the media - films, books, advertisements, everywhere you look - I have not had so many problems being castigated for singleness - possibly because I avoid places where it might be a problem.
In this case, I did wonder if the police tipped off the media as a fishing expedition - in the hope that publicity might draw other stuff out of the woodwork. But that's a pretty unethical way of going about an investigation.
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Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
My guess would be that it was the complainant who tipped off the BBC. The whole thing smells like a stitch-up to me. If so, I certainly hope it doesn't succeed.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
My guess would be that it was the complainant who tipped off the BBC. The whole thing smells like a stitch-up to me. If so, I certainly hope it doesn't succeed.
That may or may not be the case, but I wonder if the BBC paid any money for the tip-off - that would be interesting...
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
.... the BBC had a tip-off in advance that there was a police investigation going on, and their reporter was waiting when the police arrived at Cliff Richard's residence.
The use of a helicopter by the BBC suggests that the tip off was from a reliable and trusted source close to the investigation. Who's going to invest that kind of effort and cash for a wild accusation that can be made anywhere, by anyone?
I'd personally treat the Police denials with a pinch of salt until we are totally sure who tipped off the BBC. We are, after all, talking about the same force implicated (on the basis of "tweaked" evidence) in the Orgreave Mass Picket and Hillsborough Disaster cover ups.
Their track record of getting to the truth is rather tarnished especially as they didn't exactly react with the same speed (either historically or recently) over a certain discredited DJ.
[corrected code. Again]
[ 19. August 2014, 07:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Perhaps not a crime to be single, but in British politics we're overlooked, ignored, maybe marginalised ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28831242
In the article David Cameron is quoted as saying that parents and children are often overlooked. I was amazed at this, I thought this was the group most often considered in society.
I am also wondering what they will class as a "family" for this.
I'm guessing 2 parents with 2.4 children aged under 18 is a given, but what about childless couples, adult children living with one or both parents? Are they going to be saying one version of family is more valued than another?
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
We single folk can die of self neglect in our unheated, dilapidated flats, unseen and uncared for by the Big Society, or any society. Thanks Dave.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
In the article David Cameron is quoted as saying that parents and children are often overlooked. I was amazed at this, I thought this was the group most often considered in society.
Don't be amazed. It's just cheap politics. Of course the impact on people should be the focus of any policy decision... but this promise is so banal and meaningless.
However, those that define themselves as 'normal, hardworking families' are the most important segment of the electorate in terms of determining election outcomes in the UK.
I predict further such statements in the next 6-9 months that sound good but mean nothing. Whilst I suspect Dave will be the worst offender, I'm sure all parties will indulge.
AFZ
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An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I am firmly of the opinion that the stigmatisation of singleness is at least partly to do with the just world fallacy. Were the world fair, all well-adjusted, likeable people who wanted to be in a couple would be able to be in one. The trouble is that the world isn’t fair. Which sucks in respect of more things than singleness.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
We single folk can die of self neglect in our unheated, dilapidated flats, unseen and uncared for by the Big Society, or any society. Thanks Dave.
Indeed. It's not as if you ever worked, or paid taxes. Oh, and by the way, how many bedrooms are you hogging?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
Society in general just assumes that we're all couples, probably with (maybe grown-up) children. Count me in with those who feel excluded when politicians use 'families' as a catch-all phrase intended to make people warm and positive. NO, it grates! Just say 'people'!
A stupid example use of 'family': a couple of years ago I bought a bag of onions from my local Co-op and they were labelled Family Onions. WTF? Proof here:
stupid exclusive marketing words
Churches in my experience are REALLY crap in focussing on 'family' which devalues singles. If you're young and single, then fine but if you're past your youth and single you're second class.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... I'd personally treat the Police denials with a pinch of salt until we are totally sure who tipped off the BBC. ....
EM, I'm afraid you're probably right there. First of all the official line was 'other people have come forward', i.e. the publicity has been useful to our investigation - and surely nobody might disagree with anything that might lead to wicked criminals being brought to justice.
It was only later as people began to express hesitation about the prematurity of the publicity that we began to hear official denials that either police force was involved.
So it's possible the leak may have been from somewhere else, but I think we need to have its source clearly and provenly demonstrated before we withdraw our suspicions from one or the other of the police forces involved.
After all, the same day, on our local news, as is not that unusual, the police had invited along television cameras to film a dawn raid on some ordinary criminals.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Evangelicalism also strongly encourages marriage for everyone, regardless of orientation.
John Stott?
I know John Stott wasn't married - and I don't think he touches on this aspect of his life in his writings.
Did he though, encourage others to marry?
He does talk about it actually, in a really helpful interview in the book "The Single Issue" by Al Hsu.
I keep seeing it trotted out on the Ship that evangelicals are anti-singleness except for gay people. That hasn't been my experience at all - rather a lot of the grandees of conservative evangelicalism, including Stott, were/are single, and when I hung out in those circles there was an almost ascetic "single in order to do Gospel work" vibe going on that was almost anti-marriage. (Unhealthy in its own way.)
Increasing numbers of churches are forming community houses that, while not monastic, are Christian communities for single people, but sometimes including biological families as one component. The gay issue has brought the singeleness issue to the forefront, but I have never ever seen singleness derided in the evangelical churches I have been part of. Quite the opposite.
Edited for clarity.
[ 19. August 2014, 11:42: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Evangelicalism also strongly encourages marriage for everyone, regardless of orientation.
John Stott?
I know John Stott wasn't married - and I don't think he touches on this aspect of his life in his writings.
Did he though, encourage others to marry?
He does talk about it actually, in a really helpful interview in the book "The Single Issue" by Al Hsu.
I keep seeing it trotted out on the Ship that evangelicals are anti-singleness except for gay people. That hasn't been my experience at all - rather a lot of the grandees of conservative evangelicalism, including Stott, were/are single, and when I hung out in those circles there was an almost ascetic "single in order to do Gospel work" vibe going on that was almost anti-marriage. (Unhealthy in its own way.)
This is my experience too, at St Helen's in the 1990s 'single for God' was a phrase commonly banded around and I remember sermons discussing the advantages of singleness (though not dissing marriage). During this time the Rector was Dick Lucas, an older single man.
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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