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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
So I've been trying to figure out what the heck the cat experiment means.
I have been told by a number of people it proves the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. (see below). Then I came across this article.
quote:
The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics essentially states that an object in a physical system can simultaneously exist in all possible configurations, but observing the system forces the system to collapse and forces the object into just one of those possible states. Schrödinger disagreed with this interpretation.
Schrodinger ( in this article) apparently disagrees with this interpretation:
quote:
because it is impossible for an organism to be simultaneously alive and dead. Thus, he reasoned that the Copenhagen Interpretation must be inherently flawed.
So which is it? Does it prove or disprove the Copenhagen interpretation (for larger objects)?
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
I think the thought experiment about the cat has more to do with the accessibility of information. The cat has a point of view and (from that POV) is at any moment either alive or dead. From a POV outside of the (opaque) box, however, we do not have access to the cat's perspective. Quantum mechanics is partly about the unknowability of various information in various circumstances.
How does the cat, inside the box, know whether the observer, outside the box, is alive or dead from one moment to the next? (I suspect many cats simply wouldn't care.)
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I have been told by a number of people it proves the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics.
I don't think any thought experiment can possibly "prove" the Copenhagen interpretation, so the people who say that it does are wrong. In any event, the article is basically correct. The cat experiment was designed to show that the Copenhagen interpretation did not work for larger organisms.
There are, of course, problems with the thought experiment, because there is an observer in the box: The cat. Under the Copenhagen view, that is more than sufficient to cause the collapse to a single possible state.
But, fair warning, it is not my field. I just dabble. I may be over simplifying.
[ETA: Cross-post!]
[ 25. August 2014, 14:57: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I think the thought experiment about the cat has more to do with the accessibility of information.
That comes to the root of many differences between different interpretations of quantum mechanics. One is, as you put it, to admit we don't have access to information - the cat is alive, or dead, but we can't know until we open the box. I think that is what Schrodinger was getting at - intuitively we know that the cat is either alive or dead, we just don't know which. It gets called things like a "hidden variable interpretation".
An alternative is the Copenhagen interpretation, which is that rather than not having access to the information the information doesn't exist until we look for it. The cat is not in a state that can be described as alive or dead until we open the box, it's not that we simply don't know but that such a statement as "the cat is alive" has no meaning until we open the box.
Schrodinger's thought experiment was designed to show that the Copenhagen interpretation is non-sensical. Which, for macroscopic objects (especially those that can be considered observers) is probably the case. It doesn't really demonstrate anything except that the Copenhagen interpretation is counter intuitive, which proponents of the Copenhagen interpretation had conceded anyway.
Experimental data can be used to support either view. The Copenhagen interpretation is more widely held because a) no one likes unmeasurable quantities, b) more importantly, the mathematical description of collapsing wavefunctions works.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
It's odd how that sounds like Berkeley - esse est percipi - to be is to be perceived, although without doubt, quantum mechanics is not going to be charging headlong into the thickets of idealism.
I think some New Age types have also connected this with various aspects of Eastern religion, in particular, the 'creation of now'.
Well, all very hippy-dippy.
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
not only that, on a timescale slightly less than that of the scale of probability function collapses, time is totally reversible. Given the best attempts to date to formulate that into a physics that explains macro events as well as micro events, the best explanations suggest that time does not exist and we live in an illusion. The fact that decision trees of collapsed wave functions DO exist - put the whole package together, and it suggests stringly that a shamanic view of the world is more rational than a "rational" view.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
not only that, on a timescale slightly less than that of the scale of probability function collapses, time is totally reversible. Given the best attempts to date to formulate that into a physics that explains macro events as well as micro events, the best explanations suggest that time does not exist and we live in an illusion. The fact that decision trees of collapsed wave functions DO exist - put the whole package together, and it suggests stringly that a shamanic view of the world is more rational than a "rational" view.
There is a Zen koan, 'there is no time, what is memory', which is officially known as a ball-breaker. I cracked it once, but then I forgot it.
In some areas of Eastern religion, 'world' is seen, not so much as an illusion, as a social construct. But this means that you can't directly experience 'world', but you can certainly intellectualize about it. About 30 years ago, this struck me as very startling, well, it still does.
I suppose this stuff has been cheapened to an extent by the hippy-dippy associations. Yet it remains like a nagging tooth - what is now?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Excellent. The emperor has no clothes. I always knew there was something wrong with Schroedinger's cat but couldn't dare say it even to myself. The cat is not alive and dead (superpositioned) and everything in between and null, i.e. absolutely indeterminate. As Schroedinger said: it's nonsense. We simply don't know. But it's DEFINITELY alive or dead. BUT the fact that Schroedinger was using it to to disprove the Copenhagen interpretation is a category error.
No Alan?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think you will find I am the expert on this.
Thank you.
As I understood it, Schroedinger was wanting to explain the paradox of quantum uncertainty in an accessible way. He was exploring what it would mean if that same level of peculiarity was shown at a macro level.
The point was that it made no sense at this macro level, but it gave people the understanding of something that was very hard to understand at the quantum level. He never believed that the experiment as it stood would actually work. It was a macro exploration of the quantum ideas.
I didn't realise that he objected to the Copenhagen interpretation, because the experiment does explain it well. Interestingly, the play "Copenhagen" also does a very good job of trying to explain the concept of uncertainty in a macro way.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But isn't it in the transition to the macro level that the waveform collapses? Not in observation, but in order to be observed (by us), the reality has to be transferred to the macro level, in which things are either one way or another, and not, as is possible at the quantum level, in a state of probability that is neither.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The central character in the thought experiment isn't the macroscopic - the cat is incidental to the whole thing. The thought experiment relates to a microscopic quantum entity. The central character is the radioactive nucleus which, when it decays, releases the poison to kill the cat. It is also about the sub-atomic, quantum nature of the nucleus as a superposition of states - some of which where the nucleus has decayed, others where it hasn't. The cat, being either alive or dead, is merely a rather unusual scientific instrument to measure the quantum state of the nucleus - decayed or not?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The thing is, the entire system is a way of quantum effects being translated into a macro "recording instrument", while maintaining a completely closed system.
Because the system is closed, the quantum effects are still unobserved by anything outside the closed system, meaning that they are still in the state of uncertainty. Of course the cat does actually count as an observer, but only WITHIN the system. So, in fact, the cat is either alive or dead, and knows that it is alive. However, because that cannot be communicated outside the system, for us, the uncertainty rules.
If you want to understand how powerful the experiment is, the fact that it is still being talked about, and to an extent with an appreciation of the meaning, should answer that. It does reflect the oddity of the quantum world in a way that is much easier to understand, and it raises a whole lot of the difficulties and problems that have been addressed since that point.
One observation recently that fascinates me is the idea that by observing an event, this can change the history of the event - so history is not fixed until it is observed. The reflection of this in the cat experiment is that the cat only dies - historically - when it is observed, when the box is opened. If - hypothetically of course - the box was left for several days, and when the box was opened, it was found that the cat died early on, then the cat would only have died when the box was opened. At that point, and not before, the cat died days ago.
I love quantum oddity. I love the idea that it might be translated to the macro world, while knowing that it doesn't directly.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
the cat is incidental to the whole thing.
Phew, thank goodness for that. It always bothered me that the cat would make a noise at some point, all you had to do was wait.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not if it was dead. It would have to be in a sealed environment in every way, vibrationally, acoustically, thermally so that its metabolism let alone movement and pathetic mewing couldn't be detected. And then it could be calculated from the volume how long it would live: oxygen. Unless it was in a self-sustaining ecosystem, at least with CO2 scrubbers. Which would have to be building sized in proportion to duration of sustainability. Room sized for days. House sized for weeks.
Just sayin'
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So which is it? Does it prove or disprove the Copenhagen interpretation (for larger objects)?
It does both at the same time.
I'll get me coat.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The thing is, the entire system is a way of quantum effects being translated into a macro "recording instrument", while maintaining a completely closed system.
Because the system is closed, the quantum effects are still unobserved by anything outside the closed system, meaning that they are still in the state of uncertainty. Of course the cat does actually count as an observer, but only WITHIN the system. So, in fact, the cat is either alive or dead, and knows that it is alive. However, because that cannot be communicated outside the system, for us, the uncertainty rules.
If you want to understand how powerful the experiment is, the fact that it is still being talked about, and to an extent with an appreciation of the meaning, should answer that. It does reflect the oddity of the quantum world in a way that is much easier to understand, and it raises a whole lot of the difficulties and problems that have been addressed since that point.
One observation recently that fascinates me is the idea that by observing an event, this can change the history of the event - so history is not fixed until it is observed. The reflection of this in the cat experiment is that the cat only dies - historically - when it is observed, when the box is opened. If - hypothetically of course - the box was left for several days, and when the box was opened, it was found that the cat died early on, then the cat would only have died when the box was opened. At that point, and not before, the cat died days ago.
I love quantum oddity. I love the idea that it might be translated to the macro world, while knowing that it doesn't directly.
Ah, but what about the Wigner's Friend thought experiment?
Wigner's friend takes the sealed box with the cat inside it into another sealed box, whilst Wigner himself remains outside.
After the specified time, the friend opens the box to see whether the cat is dead or alive. However, the outer box remains sealed for the moment.
The question is, does wavefunction collapse happen when the friend opens the box? Or does Wigner's friend exist in two superimposed states, in one of which he is sad because the cat died, and in the other he is happy because it survived?
If the latter, what is it about Wigner opening the outer box that would cause collapse of the wavefunction? And how does Wigner's friend experience the superimposed states?
Honestly, anybody who thinks they understand this stuff hasn't thought hard enough about it.
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I'd say he was winging it
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
There is as ship(of fools) load of difficulty when translating quantum physics to living systems. Not only does a conscious witness collapse the wave function, but living systems exist in an environment in which the 2nd Law of thermodynamics is irrelevant - Life locally reverses entropy and creates order. There are a lot of spiritual traditions that hint towards intention and expectation (and prayer - if you really believe that you are bweing listened to) being capable of changing outcomes. A controlled study of retrospective (!) prayer published in the BMJ concluded that prayer can even work backwards in time. Buryl Payne's experiment with peace prayers showed that there is a better than 100,000 to 1 probability that they affect sunspot activity... It's all out there folks, extraordinary reality is even wackier than the X files.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Thanks for all your contributions folks. I'm not sure I'm much the wiser tho it seems Alan Creswell agrees with the article. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Some interesting tangential ideas floating about which I've also been thinking about so I've started a new thread.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The central character in the thought experiment isn't the macroscopic - the cat is incidental to the whole thing. The thought experiment relates to a microscopic quantum entity. The central character is the radioactive nucleus which, when it decays, releases the poison to kill the cat. It is also about the sub-atomic, quantum nature of the nucleus as a superposition of states - some of which where the nucleus has decayed, others where it hasn't. The cat, being either alive or dead, is merely a rather unusual scientific instrument to measure the quantum state of the nucleus - decayed or not?
At the point at which the poison capsule is broken (or isn't), the entire thing moves to the macroscopic level. The capsule is the observer.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Fortunately we're talking about a cat, not a dog. The continuation of a cat's existence is of little consequence - but a dog, on the other hand!
More seriously, like Feynman's sum over histories theory, the cat theory is so intense that it can only exist as a concept,a nd not as a part of our 4 dimensional existence.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think that is what Schrodinger was getting at - intuitively we know that the cat is either alive or dead, we just don't know which. It gets called things like a "hidden variable interpretation".
There have been a series of tests of local hidden variable theories* - the most famous is probably by Aspect et al. 30-odd years ago. Taken at face value, these tests rule out local hidden variable theories. Aspect's experiment had a few potential loopholes buried in it - there have been more recent experiments, involving things like sending entangled photons down several miles of optic fibre, that aim to close those loopholes.
This is not my field of expertise, but I think a lot of the possible loopholes have been ruled out. There might still be some narrow possibilities, though.
*local hidden variable, meaning that the particle knows what state it is in, although you don't.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My irony detector is registering complete and stony faced!
balaam: SOL
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
My response to the Wigners Friend situation is that the significance is the Closed System.
Within the Closed System, the wave function has collapsed, and outcome is known.
Outside that, it has not. So outside our universe, our wave functions have not collapsed - we exist in all possibilities.
So the truth is, we all live within one of many possible universes. Out waveforms have collapsed into the one we know. Because our experience cannot be engaged with outside the universe, they do not experience anything of us.
I wrote a piece of flash fiction once about a scientist who caused a big-bang, and created a new universe. For him, the universe existed for a fraction of a second. The twist is that this universe is ours.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
My response to the Wigners Friend situation is that the significance is the Closed System.
Within the Closed System, the wave function has collapsed, and outcome is known.
Outside that, it has not. So outside our universe, our wave functions have not collapsed - we exist in all possibilities.
Does not follow. All you can say is that to people outside our Closed System (universe), we exist in all possibilities. But who gives a rip what they think?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
My response to the Wigners Friend situation is that the significance is the Closed System.
Within the Closed System, the wave function has collapsed, and outcome is known.
Outside that, it has not. So outside our universe, our wave functions have not collapsed - we exist in all possibilities.
Does not follow. All you can say is that to people outside our Closed System (universe), we exist in all possibilities. But who gives a rip what they think?
Exactly. This is the cone of time thing, because anything outside that - like those outside our universe, or even outside our time cone - is completely irrelevant to us. Like we are irrelevant to the cat.
To personalise it, I know whether I am alive or dead. But my universe is tiny, and you are outside it - that is the nature of the closed box. So I don;t care that you don't know whether I am alive or dead.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice. Wrong but nice.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
My response to the Wigners Friend situation is that the significance is the Closed System.
Within the Closed System, the wave function has collapsed, and outcome is known.
Outside that, it has not. So outside our universe, our wave functions have not collapsed - we exist in all possibilities.
Does not follow. All you can say is that to people outside our Closed System (universe), we exist in all possibilities. But who gives a rip what they think?
Exactly. This is the cone of time thing, because anything outside that - like those outside our universe, or even outside our time cone - is completely irrelevant to us. Like we are irrelevant to the cat.
To personalise it, I know whether I am alive or dead. But my universe is tiny, and you are outside it - that is the nature of the closed box. So I don;t care that you don't know whether I am alive or dead.
But you're not alive and dead at the same time right? So how can you exist in other possibilities?
And what does it matter that someone else knows or not?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But you're not alive and dead at the same time right? So how can you exist in other possibilities?
And what does it matter that someone else knows or not?
It depends on your perspective. that is the crucial aspect of the closed system. From your system, not able to receive anything from my closed system, both the possibilities are true - I exist in both states. Both realities are present within the box.
When you open the box - receive some communication from the closed environment - one of those two realities will then come to interact with your reality, but which one is undetermined until you interact.
If, when you open the box, you find that I am alive, that means that the "living" scenario is the one that interacts with your reality. The other one, from your perspective, never happened.
[ 29. August 2014, 15:15: Message edited by: Schroedinger's cat ]
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
There are quite strong arguments that the system is not closed... e.g. entanglement, and the fact that we all came from the same big bang.
If two world lines do not intersect, or don't easily intersect, then that is almost equivalent to closed
Again, with the way only a small number of connections link us to everyone on the earth, are we really in a closed system? One way or another it would seem that we do know if you are dead or alive
[ 29. August 2014, 15:18: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The point is, we are in a closed system from a portion of the universe - that part of the universe outside out time-cone, that we can never have any interaction with.
Entanglement is an interesting one. The quantum system is closed because we cannot directly interact with it. When we do, it becomes un-closed, and so settles into a state. Whether this is directly or via entanglement is irrelevant. A closed system is very hard to define, which is why it is easier to grasp as "a system we have not observed".
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
...
Entanglement is an interesting one. The quantum system is closed because we cannot directly interact with it. ...
I think you are assuming that consciousness does not interact with it. The evidence appears to be that it does.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
...
Entanglement is an interesting one. The quantum system is closed because we cannot directly interact with it. ...
I think you are assuming that consciousness does not interact with it. The evidence appears to be that it does.
But - according to the theories as I understand them - that will affect them.
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
did you mean ...{not} affect them?
Dana Zohar's Quantum Consciousness is quite an old book now, but it lays out a few principles that continue to be both physically plausible and coincide with experience of embodied consciousness. Particularly the idea of a (quantum) Bose Einstein Condensate being the basis for embodied consciousness. In particular, its ability to fragment and be in many simultaneous states relates well to more pathological mental states and the means by which they are treated (to become less fragmented), and the effects and experiences in meditation practice. Zen Brain by Austin is also useful - but rather heavier to carry and to read than Zohar.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No S.c. Common sense DOES apply. There is only one reality for you, you are a quantum event decoherence, wave function collapse, detector in which the superpositioned eigenstates of the quantum collapse to one, on their being observed in your living presence and kill you, all continuously reconciled in your master's equation.
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