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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is this a sensible shooting range precaution?
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Range instructor fatally shot by 9-year-old
There's a video of events leading up to the shooting.
quote:
In the video, Vacca and the girl are at an outdoor range. The wind blows a target in the distance. Vacca shows the child how to hold the gun then helps her establish her grip and her stance. She fires one round and dirt flies above the target. Vacca adjusts the Uzi, places his right hand on her back and his left under her right arm.
She fires several rounds in rapid succession and the gun kicks to the left as she loses control. The video ends before the fatal head shot. In releasing the video, authorities did not identify who made it.
KLAS reported the girl was a tourist from the Northeast.
The station spoke with Sam Scarmardo, who operates Bullets and Burgers, about the incident.
"We really don't know what happened," he said. "Our guys are trained to basically hover over people when they're shooting. If they're shooting right-handed, we have our right-hand behind them ready to push the weapon out of the way. And if they're left-handed, the same thing."
It seems to me that relying on being able to push a gun out of the way if the person you're working with loses control of it, is a high-risk proposition. But I have never used a gun. So, for those of you familiar with this type of gun, is the safety precaution described by Scarmardo reasonable? (Assuming Scarmardo is quoted correctly.)
And if the article is describing the video correctly, what might Vacca have been doing here? This seems like an awkward position:
quote:
Vacca adjusts the Uzi, places his right hand on her back and his left under her right arm.
[ 27. August 2014, 04:21: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
There is NOTHING that ever could or would be sensible about giving a 9yr old a gun for fun. That is all.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Watching the video, I think the article is wrong on the last bit I quoted, which I said seemed like an awkward position. I would describe it as: Vacca is standing to the left of the girl with his right hand on her back and his left hand on, near or under her *left* arm.
[ 27. August 2014, 05:25: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Tragic from all perspectives. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Offline I asked Mad Geo about this, and he said,"handing a fully automatic Uzi to a nine year old girl is like handing a firehose to her and turning it on."
Poor kid. She can't unlive that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I could only properly reply to this in Hell. The fact that anyone outside the military is allowed to even touch such a weapon is totally beyond comprehension.
A nine year old?
Total insanity on the part of every adult involved, inculding the dead one.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
Why are children using guns?
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Not giving a gun to someone who doesn't have the strength to control where they're pointing it would be a sensible precaution, if you ask me. But I am not an expert.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Honestly, the same principle applies as with motor vehicles. We allow kids to participate in motor sport through relatively low-powered karts, and don't start them off on higher-powered vehicles. There are, as I understand it, a very large number of classes that most professional drivers have worked through before they reach the heights of something like Formula 1.
If it's desired to involve children in shooting as a sport, then they need to be started off with the weakest, easiest-to-handle guns possible. Again, while I wouldn't claim any expertise, I suspect that an Uzi doesn't answer that description.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Hey, come on, stop whining, the kid was only exercising her constitutional rights, y'know? And now she's used to the sight of blood she'll be good and ready to defend those rights when the federal government comes to inflict its secret socialist and Islamist agenda on the free folk of Arizona... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 27. August 2014, 09:45: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Just noting, we do in fact have a Hell thread on the same story. With no replies on it yet. Feel free to go there and vent.
Yes yes, I'm drumming up business. So shoot me...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
A bit of quick googling suggests the minimum age in Australia is 11 in Queensland, 12 in Victoria and New South Wales. I would guess the other States are similar.
It's also clear that there are legal limits on precisely which guns can be used by children, although I haven't done enough investigation to work out the precise definition of the classes of guns allowed.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
I can understand that people who absolutely must have guns need to indoctrinate their kids early. But, for simple survival, appropriate guns might be a good idea.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Where else could this happen in the western world than in the land of the gun-obsessed - sorry, "free" - and the home of the brave, if terminally stupid?
Initially my heart goes out to the nine year old who will have to live with this, but there is comfort (probably) for her, if not us, in that the type of parents who think it appropriate to frequent a place called "bullets and burgers" are likely to (a) have ready a vaccuous rationale they'll wheel out, and (b) have produced a child already de-sensitised to the taking of human life.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There are actually kids of this age- and younger- in England and Wales who have been granted shotgun certificates on a case-by-case basis: see here. But that does seem to be a rather different kettle of fish.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The law on this in the UK is complicated.
No one I know would dream of allowing their under 18 year old free access to either a shotgun or a rifle - but as the law stands if the child or teen is being taught clay-pigeon shooting or similar it is illegal to allow them to use a gun if they don't have a licence. Of course the guns in question are kept in locked cabinets to which the child or teen doesn't have the key and the real owner may be a parent but the child needs a licence to learn to shoot.
(hit button too soon)
[ 27. August 2014, 12:07: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Be advised that the substantial amount of Americans who are gun control advocates are using this story to rail against gun culture.
Personally, when discussing this issue, I have to acknowlege that I come with a certain amount of preloaded hippie , liberal, Summer of Love knee jerk responses, which is why I talked to Geo-- a kind, rational, common sense individual who just happens to have more knowedge of and comfort with guns than I do. Basically he says what orfeo has been saying and what the summary of L'organist's last post suggests-- sensible people introduce youngsters to guns in sensible ways. The recoil on a fully automatic weapon makes handing it to an underweight, inexperienced user really, really stupid. ( He said they should have started her on a .22. The basic stupidity of this business establishment was touting machine gun use as a starting place for sexyfun gun play. Stupid. )
I myself have doubts about a nine year old picking up a gun being in any way sensible- the only practical rational I can see is if you have some around the house and you want to add a level of tangible education in gun safety to that locked cabinet-- but if someone I knew did make that choice, I would pray they wound up with someone like Geo.
This topic has ceased to be theoretical with me. One of my teenage nephews has bern expressing a disturbing interest in guns.( to me, anyway-- hippie.) He changed his profile pic to show himself posing with what looked like a sniper rifle. I freaked. Later I ran across an expanded version of the same pic revealing his mom and dad standing behimd him, properly equipped, the location turned out to be a target range, the rifle turned out to be a common hunting rifle. Still squeamish, but I calmed down a lot.
Dad, apparently, had decided not to flame C's adolescent rebellion by simply squelching his interest,and rather put his hands on the steering wheel of C's interest- and get him some place where he could get proper information about gun use.
I've chosen to enter into cautious dialogue with them about it cautious meaning, not talking to them like they were frothing teabagging survivalists-- as indeed, they are not. Mostly I listen.
[ 27. August 2014, 14:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Offline I asked Mad Geo about this, and he said,"handing a fully automatic Uzi to a nine year old girl is like handing a firehose to her and turning it on."
Poor kid. She can't unlive that.
That's about right. Guns recoil. I used an air rifle at that age, which was fine. I knew another boy who, as a teenager, fired a shotgun holding it out from his body rather than nestling the butt in his shoulder and was reduced to tears. It requires a certain amount of physical strength to handle a gun and a nine year old and an Uzi are not going to be a good fit. As you say, poor kid.
Say 'hi' to Mad Geo by the way.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
According to the owner, Uzis are fine from eight years upwards. .22s are for five year olds.
(Yeah, say hi to madGeo from me too).
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Be advised that the substantial amount of Americans who are gun control advocates are using this story to rail against gun culture.
Possibly because this is exactly the sort of thing that is going to happen where you do have a gun culture.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
In my amateur opinion, Scarmardo is out of his mind.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Be advised that the substantial amount of Americans who are gun control advocates are using this story to rail against gun culture.
Possibly because this is exactly the sort of thing that is going to happen where you do have a gun culture.
I don't have a gun culture. A gun culture exist that
I have to address.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Where one does have a gun culture, then; where a gun culture exists.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
According to the owner, Uzis are fine from eight years upwards. .22s are for five year olds.
(Yeah, say hi to madGeo from me too).
A pistol of any calibre is not a suitable training weapon for anyone.
9mm is too much for most 9 year old children.
Reliance on one's reactions in response to actions already occurring as a safety measure is stupid.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Where one does have a gun culture, then; where a gun culture exists.
I'm not sure what you mean about my comment about gun control advocates, then-- should we not rail against the effects of gun culture, because the effects " should be expected"?
I think the people who have gun culture shoved right in their faces have the right - duty!- to scream loudest about it. The question is how to go about it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Apologies that this link will not work for everyone - recently in the UK Channel 4 ran a documentary on families in US who are pushing and wanting their kids to be trained with guns. A 4 (or 6 ??) yr old girl getting a junior rifle for Christmas and her father wanting to be able to be proud of her first kill in hunting. He sought advice because she didn't want to do shooting, wasn't interested - but being pushed towards it. Another family was dealing with death of 10 (???) yr old son who died because he tripped with his junior rifle and it went off, the safety provision not being enough. Whilst a teenage girl was taking part in shooting competitions and after long cross state journey didn't win and was really upset.
Ch4 Kids with guns documentary
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
According to the owner, Uzis are fine from eight years upwards. .22s are for five year olds.
(Yeah, say hi to madGeo from me too).
A pistol of any calibre is not a suitable training weapon for anyone.
9mm is too much for most 9 year old children.
Reliance on one's reactions in response to actions already occurring as a safety measure is stupid.
I'm simply reporting what he said. My own views on the matter are probably unprintable.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Where one does have a gun culture, then; where a gun culture exists.
I'm not sure what you mean about my comment about gun control advocates, then-- should we not rail against the effects of gun culture, because the effects " should be expected"?
No, I misunderstood your comment- I didn't read the rest of your post carefully enough. My bad. I now see that what you are saying is 'there are a lot of us over here, too, who are cross about this'.
[ 27. August 2014, 17:06: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Baffled. Frightened. Frustrated. I sure as hell hope the men in my nephew's life are telling him there is much more to being a man than shooting stuff. But you have to listen before people will hear, and I'm trying.
And thank you.
[ 27. August 2014, 17:40: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where else could this happen in the western world than in the land of the gun-obsessed - sorry, "free" - and the home of the brave, if terminally stupid?
Got any more anti-American bigotry to spew, or are you done?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
According to the owner, Uzis are fine from eight years upwards. .22s are for five year olds.
(Yeah, say hi to madGeo from me too).
A pistol of any calibre is not a suitable training weapon for anyone.
9mm is too much for most 9 year old children.
Reliance on one's reactions in response to actions already occurring as a safety measure is stupid.
I'm simply reporting what he said. My own views on the matter are probably unprintable.
Join us in Hell.
And I'm no expert, but along with lilbuddha, I question the logic of handing ANY newbie a weapon with massive recoil, even if that newbie were Arnold Schwarzenegger. Large motor strength does not equal fine motor control.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
sensible people introduce youngsters to guns in sensible ways. The recoil on a fully automatic weapon makes handing it to an underweight, inexperienced user really, really stupid. ( He said they should have started her on a .22. The basic stupidity of this business establishment was touting machine gun use as a starting place for sexyfun gun play. Stupid. )
Absolutely. A .22 is an appropriate firearm to train beginners with, especially youngsters. A submachine gun is not. End of.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Dad, apparently, had decided not to flame C's adolescent rebellion by simply squelching his interest,and rather put his hands on the steering wheel of C's interest- and get him some place where he could get proper information about gun use.
I've chosen to enter into cautious dialogue with them about it cautious meaning, not talking to them like they were frothing teabagging survivalists-- as indeed, they are not. Mostly I listen.
Good on them, and on you. Open, honest dialogue is key.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A pistol of any calibre is not a suitable training weapon for anyone.
9mm is too much for most 9 year old children.
Reliance on one's reactions in response to actions already occurring as a safety measure is stupid.
Not sure I agree with your first premise; a single-action .22 revolver served me pretty well in my youth. (And still does - a gift from my grandfather.)
The rest is spot on. Especially the last - it is insane to think that human reaction times could be anywhere near fast enough in that situation.
Scarmardo is an idiot.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The law on this in the UK is complicated.
No one I know would dream of allowing their under 18 year old free access to either a shotgun or a rifle
As a child in the UK, not much older than this girl, at school, I shot .22 rifles. Single shot, bolt-action .22 rifles. Also air pistols, and bows and arrows.
All of those are single-shot weapons, all were fired under the supervision of some competant adult, and being single-shot weapons, none have the potential for the loss of control seen here.
I'm a fully-grown adult man, and would be a bit nervous about firing an Uzi on full auto. Expecting a small child to control the recoil is crazy.
I'm sure you can rig up some kind of constrained support, that would keep the barrel pointed downrange whilst allowing you to feel the recoil (say it allows the gun to rotate 30 degrees, but no further), but that would be rather easier with a long gun than with an itty-bitty thing like the Uzi.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I've checking out with Purg and HellHosts whether we need both the Purg and Hell threads on this topic. Looks like the best solution is rant thread in Hell to contain the full range of discussion and pissed-off ness.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm a fully-grown adult man, and would be a bit nervous about firing an Uzi on full auto. Expecting a small child to control the recoil is crazy.
Exactly! Thanks for confirming that an Uzi is a handful for an adult.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm a fully-grown adult man, and would be a bit nervous about firing an Uzi on full auto. Expecting a small child to control the recoil is crazy.
Exactly! Thanks for confirming that an Uzi is a handful for an adult.
It appears to only be a semi-auto because she is firing only one shell at a time.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm a fully-grown adult man, and would be a bit nervous about firing an Uzi on full auto. Expecting a small child to control the recoil is crazy.
Exactly! Thanks for confirming that an Uzi is a handful for an adult.
I concur - I've shot 9mm full-auto (though not this specific model of firearm), and it's controllable, but requires a fair bit of concentration and upper body strength. Expecting a 9 year old to do it is insanity.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm a fully-grown adult man, and would be a bit nervous about firing an Uzi on full auto. Expecting a small child to control the recoil is crazy.
Exactly! Thanks for confirming that an Uzi is a handful for an adult.
It appears to only be a semi-auto because she is firing only one shell at a time.
In the video I saw, it appears she fires one round in semi-auto mode, and then the instructor appears to move the selector switch. The video did not show the full-auto firing that apparently killed the instructor, however.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
[cross-posted with everybody]
Leaving aside that this was a 9-year-old, the careless "OK that's your one practice round here goes full automatic," and most of the other things wrong in this situation, I have been curious about the owner's comment about how to safely supervise someone shooting a gun, of any age.
Reading around, it appears that the instructor was standing in the second worst possible position, where if she lost control of the gun it was almost guaranteed to flip so as to shoot him in the face. (The worst possible position would be to be standing in front of her, and some observers pointed out that he did in fact break the plane of fire.)
She was shooting right-handed, so apparently instead of standing beside her on her left, he should have been standing behind her on her right. Some said that he should have been holding her in a bear hug stance with his hands on the gun.
Some described that, even leaving aside what size of gun you first learn to shoot with, that the way you learn to fire multi-round guns is by first loading just one bullet, and firing that. Repeat. A lot of times. When you can control the gun for one bullet, load two bullets. Fire them both. From the previous, you've learned to control the gun for the first bullet, and if while you're learning two bullets you lose control after firing the second bullet, there is no third bullet to cause damage. When you can control two bullets, load three bullets. And so on. One person describing this method said that, despite all his experience with guns, he would probably never be able to go to more than four bullets.
There are sane gun owners in this country who look at the kinds of reckless behavior that happened here as abhorrent. I don't think gun ownership is going away in my country, so I would like to learn more about the ways to handle guns responsibly instead of the batshit crazy insane stuff that happened here.
[ 27. August 2014, 17:59: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Back in the olden days, when I was young. My father had about 20 handguns of varying calibre from .22 to .455, as well as that many rifles and shotguns. Rural, western Canada. My elementary school had pellet guns, spring powered. We learned basic gun safety with them. We had to shoot from prone, meaning lying on your tummy. Single shot pellet guns.
I joined the Police Boys' Rifle Club, where we took the bus into the downtown and shot various rifles and handguns at the range in the police station. We started with single shot .22s where you had to both load a shell with a pull-bolt (i.e. doesn't fold down) and then pull the firing pin back. Again from prone.
For handguns both at the police range and at the local fish and game outdoor range, handguns were shot in separate areas. Sitting with a table that has a u-shaped cut-out so arms are supported, and vertical dividers about 12-15" wide in which the handgun was placed and must remain, with strict instructions on when to pick it up, load it, point it, and shoot. We did shoot repeating .22 pistols, max about 18 shells, but we were never allowed to fire more than 3 or 4 in a row (I forget).
Very strict handling. Very strict qualifying to approach the weapons. Exams both practical and written.
The same held true at 2 summer camps I attended which had single shot 22s. All of the above happened about grade 7 level, age 12 and up. I didn't maintain any interest really after about age 13 or 14, at which time I was sent off to boarding school.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm a fully-grown adult man, and would be a bit nervous about firing an Uzi on full auto. Expecting a small child to control the recoil is crazy.
Exactly! Thanks for confirming that an Uzi is a handful for an adult.
It appears to only be a semi-auto because she is firing only one shell at a time.
In the video I saw, it appears she fires one round in semi-auto mode, and then the instructor appears to move the selector switch. The video did not show the full-auto firing that apparently killed the instructor, however.
Oh, ok. I was wondering about that because I was wondering how it could kick back around on the instructor and then she would pull the trigger again. I expected to see it full auto and her not taking her finger off the trigger because she would be trying to hold on to the gun as she tried to regain control.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
In the video I saw the gun carries her whole arm up and to the left. And yeah, she did some test shots in semi mode.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Some described that, even leaving aside what size of gun you first learn to shoot with, that the way you learn to fire multi-round guns is by first loading just one bullet, and firing that. Repeat. A lot of times. When you can control the gun for one bullet, load two bullets. Fire them both. From the previous, you've learned to control the gun for the first bullet, and if while you're learning two bullets you lose control after firing the second bullet, there is no third bullet to cause damage. When you can control two bullets, load three bullets. And so on. One person describing this method said that, despite all his experience with guns, he would probably never be able to go to more than four bullets.
There are sane gun owners in this country who look at the kinds of reckless behavior that happened here as abhorrent. I don't think gun ownership is going away in my country, so I would like to learn more about the ways to handle guns responsibly instead of the batshit crazy insane stuff that happened here.
I suspect what we have here is a tragic culture clash.
The owner of the gun range runs a bunch of package deals, the primary purpose being to let adults who are sucked in by the whole Rambo-glamor thing to act out their fantasies. They also have a policy allowing children as young as eight to fire a weapon on their range.
The instructor has military experience and may very well be good at teaching firearms and firearm safety to adults, particularly adult men. He does not, however, have a lot of experience teaching children, particularly not girls. He was probably wary of putting his hands on her too much lest he receive accusations of inappropriate touching.
The parents want to let their daughter experiment with non-rigid gender roles. Which includes allowing her to learn to shoot a gun if she so desires. They purchase one of the package deals. But they don't know about guns and don't know to warn the instructor that there's no way that a girl her size and fitness level can control a gun like that.
And tragedy ensues.
(I fired my first rifle at six or seven - and didn't particularly like it because the kick physically hurt).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
I've never fired an Uzi, but I have fired a Sten gun, which must be approximately the same size, weight, and rate of fire, on automatic, and it kicked like a bastard. Looking at the video in the link, the instructor's hand is under the girl's arm when she shoots, and as the gun is pretty much guaranteed to jump up, not down, that would seem to be absolutely no use at all in helping her to control it.
I've no problem with kids learning to shoot as such, or learning to shoot automatic weapons, but they have to be introduced sensibly. Start small calibre, single shot, and in a properly supported prone position, as other posters here have said.
(Both my kids have fired air rifles, the youngest when she was six. I kept a firmer grip on the air rifle when they were shooting than this instructor is doing with a fucking Uzi. No, that isn't a sensible range precaution.)
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I've never fired an Uzi, but I have fired a Sten gun, which must be approximately the same size, weight, and rate of fire, on automatic, and it kicked like a bastard. Looking at the video in the link, the instructor's hand is under the girl's arm when she shoots, and as the gun is pretty much guaranteed to jump up, not down, that would seem to be absolutely no use at all in helping her to control it.
It looks to me as if he's helping her hold it up. Wikipedia says it's 7.72 pounds, which seems like a lot for a 9 year old to hold up at arm's length. Compared to the Sten, the Uzi is 10% heavier, has a 10% higher muzzle velocity, and a ~20% higher rate of fire. (Those last two put together suggest that on full automatic, the kick could be ~30% stronger with the Uzi than with the Sten.)
A similar story involving an Uzi was reported back in 2008: Boy, 8, accidentally kills self at gun show.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
[cross-posted with everybody]
There are sane gun owners in this country who look at the kinds of reckless behavior that happened here as abhorrent. I don't think gun ownership is going away in my country, so I would like to learn more about the ways to handle guns responsibly instead of the batshit crazy insane stuff that happened here.
In this case, the difference between sensible gun handling and batshit crazy insane stuff is based on how many customers the gun range wants to have.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
As a rural kid, I learned to shoot at around age 9 using a .22. Very useful for getting rid of possums.
But I can't imagine trying to shoot anything the weight and power of an Uzi, even as an adult and certainly not as a child.
We were very heavily supervised, either by parents or much older cousins, and we were reminded of the rules every time we went out with a gun - in particular, the rules about knowing who is around you, and before you shoot, what is behind the target.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
[cross-posted with everybody]
There are sane gun owners in this country who look at the kinds of reckless behavior that happened here as abhorrent. I don't think gun ownership is going away in my country, so I would like to learn more about the ways to handle guns responsibly instead of the batshit crazy insane stuff that happened here.
In this case, the difference between sensible gun handling and batshit crazy insane stuff is based on how many customers the gun range wants to have.
Consider that this also happened in the city of Las Vegas, which has built a financial empire on catering to people's every batshit whim.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Not sure I agree with your first premise; a single-action .22 revolver served me pretty well in my youth. (And still does - a gift from my grandfather.)
It is, IMO, the size that makes a pistol much more dangerous for a beginner. It is much easier to accidentally move the barrel from a safe direction to a not safe one.
In this particular case the calibre compounded the problem.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Not sure I agree with your first premise; a single-action .22 revolver served me pretty well in my youth. (And still does - a gift from my grandfather.)
It is, IMO, the size that makes a pistol much more dangerous for a beginner. It is much easier to accidentally move the barrel from a safe direction to a not safe one.
In this particular case the calibre compounded the problem.
That's a fair consideration. Speaking only for myself, muzzle control was taught early - even with rubber dart guns. But I can see your point, definitely.
In this case, though, we're not talking about a pistol, in the strict sense of the word; a submachine gun is in it's own class, neither a full long gun, i.e., a rifle or shotgun, nor a pistol per se. And wholly inappropriate for a 9-year old - I think we both agree on that...
[ 28. August 2014, 12:57: Message edited by: jbohn ]
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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