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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "Deeply elitist UK"
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
'Deeply elitist UK locks out diversity at top'
This report is not surprising in the least. It simply confirms what anecdotal evidence has suggested for some time.
quote:
71% of senior judges
62% of senior armed forces officers
55% of permanent secretaries (the most senior civil servants)
53% of senior diplomats
(had attended fee-paying schools)
Also privately educated were 45% of chairmen and women of public bodies, 44% of the Sunday Times Rich List, 43% of newspaper columnists and 26% of BBC executives.
A couple of questions come to mind.
First of all, what (if anything) can be done to counter this? It's not something that can be changed overnight - we're talking about changes that would take a generation or more to take effect.
Secondly, what (if anything) is a "Christian response" to this?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
First of all, what (if anything) can be done to counter this?
Grammar schools.
The problem, it seems to me, is that those who think elitism is a bad thing think the solution is even worse.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
[x-post]
Jesus said the poor will always be with us; I think the same can be said of elites, every society has one.
Trying to remove the elite will probably just result in a new one taking its place (probably without changing the people immediately behind them in the shadows).
My personal response involves attempting not to value somebody more because they are part of an elite, or less because they are not, and bearing in mind that in the Kingdom of God, the last shall be first.
For this reason I don't like it when I detect churches and other christian institutions actively training or recruiting elites.
[ 28. August 2014, 06:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
First of all, what (if anything) can be done to counter this? It's not something that can be changed overnight - we're talking about changes that would take a generation or more to take effect.
Secondly, what (if anything) is a "Christian response" to this?
The answer to both questions is to promote Kingdom values - especially justice. See Christ in the lives of the poor, proclaim him to the rich.
We'd best make a start with ourselves (the churches). Refuse to have anything to do with patronage and elitism. Open all posts in all denominations to everyone - and have interviews etc conducted by independent panels. Redistribute cash held by denominations -- declare the year of Jubilee.
Remove Bishops sitting in the HoL and if you want to replace them with anything have a cross section of involvement from all faiths and denominations.
Streamline or eliminate hierarchy and move to a far simpler way of living as church. Commit to working in areas of poverty and return to areas the church has abandoned.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I was privately educated at public expense (means-tested, selective entry). I didn't enjoy being the 'poor kid', and I don't _think_ I'll want to put my kids through it. The teaching was OK...ish...(I think I can maybe pass some kind of legitimate judgement - I spent most of the last 20 years teaching in HE.) I guess the main thing was, that the school was selective on entry and heavily streamed thereafter. Therefore the teacher could find a speed and go for it. If one could, one would learn a lot. This gives an advantage which persists into university and out the other side.
When I was teaching HE, the experience was much more 'comprehensive' - low-ranking institution, but a niche field, leading to a really wide-ability cohort. This necessitated creative teaching (so as not to have the bottom 25% burning out and/or the top 10% leaving in disgust) but, while we could still attract a balance, it could be made to work. The achievement of the best _could_ pull-up the performance of the 'saveable worst' - sometimes - but we inevitably covered less than we might have with the best.
So - to generalise - a less-mixed cohort = more depth and breadth = higher achievers = better jobs for those folks.
I have no problem with this - I wasn't the best of the best, which is why I taught at dogshit college, not Cambridge. I'd have made an utterly shit Cambridge academic, but for a while, I found something useful to do somewhere further down the pile.
My suspicion is that some of our outrage about this kind of inequality comes from a time 1-2 generations ago (and thence back eternally) where ones situation at birth really did force one into a strata of society, when given the chance one could have done much more. In some UK communities - perhaps most of all among recent immigrants - this is still prevalent. I have a Polish friend who drives lorries, but can speak 5 languages well and has hobbies in philosophy and theology. He probably ranks in the top 20% of the folks I used to teach to MSc - but he is middle-aged and has a family to support, so his chance at social mobility is probably gone.
But in light of this :
quote:
return to areas the church has abandoned.
- my experience of inner-city church for the last 25 years, paints a different picture. Our society is sufficiently mobile (egalitarian?!) that the children of those I worship with have all left the inner-city estates. Those who remain are of ultimate value to God in their humanity, but are fuck-all use at running a functioning institution (we are 'congregational' in polity) in the real world. If EM meant the church might pump resources into areas like mine...well, my denomination does from time to time, and my congregation can waste it like you wouldn't believe. The 'noble poor' myth is unhelpful in these parts, to this extent.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Jesus said the poor will always be with us; I think the same can be said of elites, every society has one.
I think there is a distinction between "having an elite" and "elitism". Yes, we will always have an elite, those who are most talented, however you want to define that.
Elitism is where the school or university you attended is the primary indicator for a senior role = as if by attending Jesus College means you are a better fit for a senior role than someone who attended Bogcaster college. Or attending Eton means you are more likely to get a cabinet post.
And yes, of course we have an elite in this country. We always have. But it has changed in the last 50 years. It used to be hereditary, now it is money-based. I actually think that is a bad thing.
The problem is that, if it is hereditary, there is sense that if you marry right, you can rise up in society - I have sort of done this, my granddad on one side was a skilled manual worker, I am now higher up the ladder - this means that my children could marry well and move higher up.
However, because it is money based, my family can only rise up the ladder by suddenly acquiring several million quid.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well, I went to a fee-paying school in the UK. Towards A levels, I came under lots of pressure (along with my peers) to try for Oxbridge, mainly it seemed to me with a view to lengthening the honours lists in gold in the assembly hall.
I'd like to think my refusal was a righteous act in the spirit of the Kingdom of God, but it was probably down to innate thrawnness. Either way, I don't regret that choice at all.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
For this reason I don't like it when I detect churches and other christian institutions actively training or recruiting elites.
You wont like the C of E much then.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
No, that wasn't bitter at all. sigh.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
When I read Alistair McGrath's biography of J.I. Packer, I discovered that one of the explicit aims of IVF (as it then was) was to be a recruiting ground for future evangelical leaders in the C of E, via camps like Ieuan (? I'm not posh enough to know how to spell it). That was rather a surprise, but made a lot of sense of my experience in my university CU.
I did some voluntary work in a professional capacity for the Alpha Leaders' conference in London earlier this year. My vague impression beforehand was that the conference was to give encouragement to leaders of Alpha courses, but the impression I had on departure was that it was only tangentially related to actual Alpha courses. Rather, in similar fashion, the aim was to train leaders, in all walks of life, who were evangelicals, to ensure they were represented among the elites.
I have to admit I didn't find the Alpha leaders' conference all bad, but you are right that I really didn't like that elitist aspect at all, and recongised the same spirit I'd read about in McGrath's book still at work.
[ 28. August 2014, 09:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When I read Alistair McGrath's biography of J.I. Packer, I discovered that one of the explicit aims of IVF (as it then was) was to be a recruiting ground for future evangelical leaders in the C of E.
Forgive me, what's 'IVF' in this case? (I presume it isn't in vitro fertilisation.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Interestingly, much of my Christian formation was via the Crusaders' Union. This was founded around 1904 to plug a gap in the Christian market, falling between the boys who went to public (i.e. private, boarding) schools, and those who went to Sunday School.
They were specifically aiming at the boys who went to fee-paying Day Schools (whose parents would never dream of sending them to mix among the hoi-polloi of Sunday School!) - this was displayed by their motto which was always written in NT Greek until the early 1970s! In the mid-60s when I was a member, you could pretty well map middle-class Britain by the distribution of Crusader groups - there would have been a strong correlation with Waitrose branches, if those had been around back then!
I think that this was a valid Evangelical response to the stratified society of the day, although one could also argue that it simply pandered to, and reinforced, social divisions. It's worth noting that today's "Urban Saints" (as Crusaders has become) works among all groups of young people, girls as well as boys.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When I read Alistair McGrath's biography of J.I. Packer, I discovered that one of the explicit aims of IVF (as it then was) was to be a recruiting ground for future evangelical leaders in the C of E.
Forgive me, what's 'IVF' in this case? (I presume it isn't in vitro fertilisation.)
Inter-Varsity Fellowship - now UCCF (Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship). The name changed around 1975 I think. I think that their publishing arm is still IVP, though (Inter-Varsity Press).
By the way, when IVF (or its predecessors) was initiated in the 1920s, it was as an explicitly Evangelical response to the very popular SCM (Student Christian Movement). And, after WW2, it gave birth to "Tyndale House", which had the aim of doing serious Evangelical scholarship and has had a huge - if largely unacknowledged - influence within the CofE especially.
[ 28. August 2014, 10:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I went to a posh private school, which was a big shock, as I grew up in a tough area of Manchester, where men fought in the streets (just ask Deano; he'll tell you all about it).
So I was able to join the elite in a way. (Cue, guilt feelings).
In my yoof, I protested at this in various ways, but then it dawned on me that this is a self-perpetuating elite. Why would they give that up? I can't see any possible reason.
The current economic regime seems to punish the poor and reward the rich. Will the poor revolt, and storm the gates of heaven? I doubt it - in fact, the rich have the knack of getting the poor to vote for them. Je comprends fuck all.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When I read Alistair McGrath's biography of J.I. Packer, I discovered that one of the explicit aims of IVF (as it then was) was to be a recruiting ground for future evangelical leaders in the C of E.
Forgive me, what's 'IVF' in this case? (I presume it isn't in vitro fertilisation.)
Inter Varsity Fellowship - now known as UCCF
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[x-post]
Jesus said the poor will always be with us; I think the same can be said of elites, every society has one.
My issue with this without context is that it can be used to argue against any kind of move to ameliorate the situation and open up opportunity to those from less privileged backgrounds. The same verse is often used by conservative republicans to argue against any form of welfare state for instance.
I think there are still good practical reasons to - while accepting there will always be elites in some form - attempting to open up social structures.
As your Alpha experience alludes to - and as the author of the Ugley Vicar blog put it:
"Yet, inevitably, Bash campers produced more Bash campers, and so English evangelicalism generally, and in latter years Conservative Evangelicalism particularly, has been dominated by a public school ethos. Unfortunately, public-school upper-middle-class people are generally poor at opening their ranks to outsiders. "
[ 28. August 2014, 10:45: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Oscar the Grouch quote:
First of all, what (if anything) can be done to counter this? It's not something that can be changed overnight - we're talking about changes that would take a generation or more to take effect.
Secondly, what (if anything) is a "Christian response" to this?
I'd echo Anglican't but go further: bring back the Assisted Places Scheme. Where the independent schools which took APS pupils scored over grammars was that the staff were, by and large, untainted by the culture of low expectation of pupils from poorer backgrounds that emerged from the teacher training establishments from the 1960s onwards. I will never forget being told by a head of department that none of the pupils in her school would be interested in, or could benefit from, free tickets - with paid transport - to concerts because classical music was 'elitist' and 'not their culture.
As for a Christian response: sometimes pastors have to tell hard truths, and that can be that some parents really don't put their children first, really aren't switched onto the value of education, and that school can be the only way out for their children. The idea that whatever makes mum or dad 'happy' is best for the children may be comfortable for the adult but it can be devastating for the child. Christians need to accept that some parents aren't hard-wired to put their children first and act in their best interest.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'd back the Assisted Places Scheme. Where the independent schools which took APS pupils scored over grammars was that the staff were, by and large, untainted by the culture of low expectation of pupils from poorer backgrounds that emerged from the teacher training establishments from the 1960s onwards.
I - a product of the Assisted Places Scheme myself - both agree and disagree!
Yes, it was a good idea (although it never paid all the ancillary costs of education, which could still be prohibitive for some parents). However one could argue that it did not so much encourage social mobility as assimilate more people into the "elite". Admittedly there are several ways of looking at this, and the Scheme certainly gave the lie to an elite based merely on "ability to pay".
However, I cannot agree that all teachers coming out of 1960s Training Establishments were tainted by misguided political ideals and discouraged their students from engaging in "high culture", . Some did that, I'm sure; but my brother-in-law and my wife, both from what one might call "working-class backgrounds", encouraged and fostered their charges to have broad interests.
Indeed my wife (who only retired last year from her school on a "deprived" estate, and who has strong left-wing beliefs) continued to encourage not only the reading of fiction (though not, to be true, the classics) but also an interest in dance, ballet and theatre. She has always regarded education as a "way out" for children!
[ 28. August 2014, 11:31: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[x-post]
Jesus said the poor will always be with us; I think the same can be said of elites, every society has one.
My issue with this without context is that it can be used to argue against any kind of move to ameliorate the situation and open up opportunity to those from less privileged backgrounds.
Full disclosure: I was on an assisted place scheme, as I recall, and got a free place, but not for means-related reasons.
In the light of our various school backgrounds, it would be interesting to see how many contributors to this thread are or were part of the elite in one way or another. I can't help thinking that agonising about the role of the elite is a special hobby of the product of elites. But my head starts hurting if I go down that line of thought too much.
I'm not really sure what can be done to 'open up' elites apart from live according to different values. Rather than overturning elites, I suppose I seek to change the value those around me subscribe to them.
In other words, combating elitism begins at home.
[ETA even fuller disclosure: I was in Crusaders too!]
[ 28. August 2014, 11:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However one could argue that it did not so much encourage social mobility as assimilate more people into the "elite".
What's the difference?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Quite. Social mobility (always presumed to be upwards, by the way, although one might reasonably think that because you can't have a whole nation of professors, company chairmen and high court judges, if some are going up others will have to go down) can be construed as being about making elites accessible. That's, to put it in rather crude an un-nuanced way, the basic difference between social mobility and equality.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'd suggest that the main problem is not actually education. Plenty of students do extremely well at comprehensive schools, but their chances are still reduced. There was a programme about this on Radio 4 last month based on a research programme someone had done. In brief, the main points were:
1. Getting into the "professions" - medicine, law, etc. is often a matter of connections. If you have a relative who's a doctor, for example, and can wangle some time shadowing them in a hospital, your chances of being accepted into medical school are far higher. Apparently (according to the report) it was virtually impossible for someone without a family or friend connection with the profession to organise this.
2. Unpaid or low-paid internships and work experience are also key. Two factors here - without the connections that normally lead to these internships, and without the money to live on whilst one is on one, this avenue is hard or impossible to pursue. One student reported contacting a law firm and asking whether she could work in an unpaid admin position for a few months to gain experience and was told that if she wasn't related to one of the barristers then it would not be possible.
3. Most interesting of all, the researcher discovered that working class students were less likely to call upon the connections they did have, because they felt it would be cheating. By contrast, middle class students had no such qualms having been led by their environment to expect this sort of assistance.
A straw poll amongst some people on another bulletin board elsewhere demonstrated that nearly all of those in very senior positions had started their journey there with an opportunity that arose because of someone they or more likely their parents knew. That's the really stacked deck here, IME and IMNAAHO.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
although one might reasonably think that because you can't have a whole nation of professors, company chairmen and high court judges, if some are going up others will have to go down
I used to know a chap who had been educated at the best private school in the city. He was a cabin crew member for one or other of the budget airlines.
I suppose you could class that as someone "moving down"...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Good points there, karl. BTW at risk of a tangent, I'd add the ordained ministry, certainly in the CofE/ CinW, to those professions where family connections help. Certainly there seem to be a lot of clergy and successful ordinands of my acquaintance who have the cloth in the family. I'd attribute this more to them being better socialised to what selection conferences are looking for than to any conscious old boy/ old girl net, but if I'm right it shows another way that 'insider' status can reproduce itself.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I used to know a chap who had been educated at the best private school in the city. He was a cabin crew member for one or other of the budget airlines.
I suppose you could class that as someone "moving down"...
Only when they were landing ... not on take-off.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Another thing I'd add is that self-perception over social class is an issue.
A chap I knew was a successful architect with a practice that had designed stuff all over the world. He accumulated many of the material trappings of the successful businessman: two holiday homes, large yacht, children privately educated, several foreign holidays every year, large motorbike for fund, etc, etc, etc.
But he still always described himself as working class and had a definite chip on his shoulder.
What I should add, of course, it that he made it into architecture through the old-fashioned pupillage system. A pupil of a secondary modern - and dyslexic - he left school straight after his 15th birthday at the end of the first term of what we'd call Year 10. He got his pupillage through his father (!) being interviewed at an architectural firm and started his draughtsmanship training. After national service he went back into architecture and completed his training as a draughtsman.
He was of course lucky that he became an architect in the days before RIBA achieved its stranglehold on the profession. Even in his day, having started his architectural practice, he was suddenly prevented from calling himself an architect because he hadn't completed the only available RIBA accredited conversion course - only because RIBA closed it down 4 weeks before the last batch were due to qualify. But unlike most RIBA architects his comprehensive training, which included stints working with a construction company, meant he could (and did) actually build a house and one that worked, rather than designing something that looked good on the board but was functionally wanting.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
So more than half of some of the positions in society where people can make a real difference are filled by people who went to fee-paying schools, and we are saying that 'something needs to be done about it'?
I for one am pleased to see that in some areas of society educated people are putting themselves forward for these positions and are able to carry them out. I assume that we're not saying that they are incompetent but have the jobs only because of who they are?
ISTM that there may be more of a remnant of the old class system remaining in the inverse prejudices of those who would have been placed into the lower class bracket in the past, than in the attitudes of the 'higher classes'. This in itself perpetuates the idea that we have not progressed.
What hasn't progressed is the attitudes of generations of people who avoid any association with politics or with any organisations who try to help build bridges between people.
The Christian response is to love one another, as ever, whatever our take on each other's 'class' , to do our best to ensure that every child is educated to his or her highest abilities, and to aim to build an economy in which people have opportunities to contribute their skills and energies for the good of the whole.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When I read Alistair McGrath's biography of J.I. Packer, I discovered that one of the explicit aims of IVF (as it then was) was to be a recruiting ground for future evangelical leaders in the C of E, via camps like Ieuan
It was Iwerne Minster - near where I grew up.
There was no direct relation between 'Bash camps' and IVF, although there has been a lot of common ground and people. Perhaps some of the confusion arises in that for quite a while the camps were known as 'VPS Camps' - Varsity and Public School Camps.
The origin is not unrelated to the thread. Rev. Eric Nash (i.e. "Bash" Nash) in the 1930's saw his mission field to be the Public Schools of England. This stemmed from recognising the elitism of the day. His thinking was that if you wanted to reach England for Christ, then you needed to reach those who would lead England. Then, as now, these were largely drawn from the Public Schools. Initially held at a school in Iwerene Minster (pronounced approximately you-earn), after WWII they expanded to other locations.
Whether Bash's vision has been realized is a moot question. However, the 'products' of the camps have had a significant effect on the Church of England, and not just the conservative evangelical wing - for instance David Watson and Nicky Gumble went through the system. John Mumford (Vinyard UK) was the 'Iwerne Rep.' in Cambridge in my time there.
If the camps have not had the desired effect on the elite, this is partly because they have perhaps been successful in diverting PSBs (Public School Boys) into non-elite directions. I would cite the friend who is ordained and has spent his entire ministry in inner-city Liverpool. The Gospel does tend to have this subversive effect on people.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Many people in prominent positions in Scotland are state comprehensive educated, including First Minister Alex Salmond, deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon, leader of the Scottish Labour Party Joanne Lamont, leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson, Convenor of the Scottish Green Party, Patrick Harvie, and leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie Rennie.
There is no privately educated political elite in this part of the UK, but the report in the OP seems to overlook this.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
So more than half of some of the positions in society where people can make a real difference are filled by people who went to fee-paying schools, and we are saying that 'something needs to be done about it'?
Make a real difference? As in privileged people ensuring that already privileged people retain their privileged lives?
Just what kind of difference are the majority of these people in power who went to fee-paying schools actually making to those who didn't go to fee-paying schools? Oh, let me see, they are 'cracking down on benefits fraud'; they are 'ensuring that people are not parked on disability benefits for years', they have 'introduced the spare-room subsidy'. Oh yes, what joy and Christian charity they have spread to the poorest in our nation. They have made a difference indeed!
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But Amika, surely you realize that these are the undeserving poor, and they must be distinguished from the deserving poor. The first lot lie in bed in the morning, and watch Sky TV all day; the second lot are very grateful to the elite for giving them a small pittance, and they promise to vote for them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Many people in prominent positions in Scotland are state comprehensive educated, including First Minister Alex Salmond, deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon, leader of the Scottish Labour Party Joanne Lamont, leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson, Convenor of the Scottish Green Party, Patrick Harvie, and leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie Rennie.
There is no privately educated political elite in this part of the UK, but the report in the OP seems to overlook this.
Largely true, I think, here in Wales too. Not many independent schools here, though there are some recognised- often Welsh medium- posh state schools. Of course, it could be that Welsh and Scottish members of the elites that the report is talking about set their course for London pretty quickly, as offering a wider stage for their ambitions.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But Amika, surely you realize that these are the undeserving poor, and they must be distinguished from the deserving poor. The first lot lie in bed in the morning, and watch Sky TV all day; the second lot are very grateful to the elite for giving them a small pittance, and they promise to vote for them.
Indeed. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Apparently the second category are those 'hard-working families' that all the parties are so keen to bang on about in hope of obtaining their votes. As averse to the 'layabout families' whose vote no one apparently desires.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
The origin is not unrelated to the thread. Rev. Eric Nash (i.e. "Bash" Nash) in the 1930's saw his mission field to be the Public Schools of England. This stemmed from recognising the elitism of the day. His thinking was that if you wanted to reach England for Christ, then you needed to reach those who would lead England. Then, as now, these were largely drawn from the Public Schools.
He was also reacting to the collapse in church attendance during the 20s/30s - I don't think many who lived in the aftermath of WWI realised how deep the change in attitudes wrt the elite actually were.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Of course, it could be that Welsh and Scottish members of the elites that the report is talking about set their course for London pretty quickly, as offering a wider stage for their ambitions.
Indeed.
A bit more googling has revealed that the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the Right Reverend John Chalmers was state educated, as was the Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh, Archbishop Leo Cushley. The Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church grew up in Ireland and I can't find a biography of the Moderator of the Free Church. But I'm pretty sure there's no privately educated elite amongst the churches in Scotland.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
There was no direct relation between 'Bash camps' and IVF, although there has been a lot of common ground and people. Perhaps some of the confusion arises in that for quite a while the camps were known as 'VPS Camps' - Varsity and Public School Camps.
I have rooted out the book and you are right, I was mistaken (about a lot of things; it's Alister McGrath, and - thank you leo - Iwerne).
McGrath's take (p20-21) is nonetheless interesting.
quote:
Eric Nash... had established his 'Varsity and Public School' Camp at Iwerne Minister, with the specific purpose of evangelizing public school boys - 'the best boys from the best schools', as Nash used to put it
He then goes on to relate Packer's arrival at Oxford, emphasis mine: quote:
the OICCU was 'under something of a Bash influence'. Packer was an outsider here. He... had no links with the 'Bash camps'. Evangelical Christianity at Oxford around this time was somewhat élitist... Packer's humble origins may have counted against him at this point;.. some infulential members of the Executive Committee of the OICCU were 'VPS Campers'
quote:
[Nash's] thinking was that if you wanted to reach England for Christ, then you needed to reach those who would lead England.
That's precisely the kind of thinking which I found alive and well at the Alpha Leaders' conference and which I intuitively feel to run counter to Kingdom of God values. And then go on to guiltily make the most of whatever connections I have on occasion.
[ 28. August 2014, 17:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Don't know whether this is relevant, but interesting to see that according to the usual fount of all knowledge Nash himself seems not to have been out of the top drawer socially, by a long chalk (minor public school and no money for university at first).
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
[Nash's] thinking was that if you wanted to reach England for Christ, then you needed to reach those who would lead England.
That's precisely the kind of thinking which I found alive and well at the Alpha Leaders' conference and which I intuitively feel to run counter to Kingdom of God values. And then go on to guiltily make the most of whatever connections I have on occasion.
I know what you mean. I guess there are different aspects of it. Part of it is trying to think strategically - where is the best place to put our effort. That does not seem necessarily bad, although one should expect "not many, not many noble, not many wise". But part is that it seems easier to reach out to those like oneself. Alpha grew up in an environment at least on the edge of the elite, and its style of meal, talk and discussion suits well those kind of people. But one should remember that Alpha is going to a lot of places other than that, prisons for example.
I cannot recall if it was a shipmate or someone else who pointed me to this talk by C.S. Lewis. It seems pertinent to this discussion. If we consider the term 'elite' it can be used in different ways. There is a more objective sense where the elite is a set of people evidently more skilled in some way than the ordinary practitioners in the field. But another sense is that which Lewis refers to as the 'Inner Ring' - a group which outsiders might want to join but cannot.
Is the core problem that the 'elite' in this second sense prevents the truly able from being part of the 'elite' in the first sense? Putting it a different way, because PSBs can validate themselves to the inner ring, they can become part of it , even though the real skills they have no better than those of others.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
So more than half of some of the positions in society where people can make a real difference are filled by people who went to fee-paying schools, and we are saying that 'something needs to be done about it'?
Make a real difference? As in privileged people ensuring that already privileged people retain their privileged lives?
Just what kind of difference are the majority of these people in power who went to fee-paying schools actually making to those who didn't go to fee-paying schools? Oh, let me see, they are 'cracking down on benefits fraud'; they are 'ensuring that people are not parked on disability benefits for years', they have 'introduced the spare-room subsidy'. Oh yes, what joy and Christian charity they have spread to the poorest in our nation. They have made a difference indeed!
You are correlating some of the policies of the current coalition administration with those members who went to fee-paying schools then.
Is that a fair assessment?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
You don't have assessments of knowledge, skills and abilities that specifically leave out the connections? I'm very surprised. Such connection based hiring would be considered wrong, and may even be illegal in Canada. Perhaps titles and monarchy are also involved in the problem?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
You don't have assessments of knowledge, skills and abilities that specifically leave out the connections? I'm very surprised. Such connection based hiring would be considered wrong, and may even be illegal in Canada.
[Tangent Alert]
Whilst this works for graduates, it doesn't work so well for experienced hires (because you are essentially comparing different bags of skills for a not completely defined position anyway). Whilst outright nepotism is frowned upon everywhere - getting a job partly based on connections is not uncommon, and yes I've seen it happen even in Canadian companies (in the two sectors that I'm most familiar with).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
Part of it is trying to think strategically - where is the best place to put our effort.
Again, I think there's a subtle difference between just doing what you are doing wherever you find yourself, and striving to break into a particular 'strategic' group on purpose. In the course of my day job I've occasionally worked for some very rich and influential people, pretty much by accident. I like the romance of Joseph's transition from jailbird to prime minister in perhaps a matter of hours. You can't strategise that ![[Smile]](smile.gif) quote:
Alpha grew up in an environment at least on the edge of the elite (...) Alpha is going to a lot of places other than that, prisons for example.
It hasn't crossed the Channel well, especially in prisons. I think it has the role it does in the UK partly for reasons of culture and partly because in the UK, unlike here, chaplains are on the official prison staff - so they are another elite in a way. But what really got me at the conference I worked at was that it wasn't about Alpha courses at all. The most bearable way of experiencing it was as a management conference that happened to have a lot of (white) evos at it. But that's a tangent. quote:
I cannot recall if it was a shipmate or someone else who pointed me to this talk by C.S. Lewis. It seems pertinent to this discussion.
Yes, he returned to the idea in That Hideous Strength, one of my favourites of his and on my desk now. I think it sums up well the idea of wanting to be in the elite for its own sake as opposed to falling into it naturally or indeed by divine accident. quote:
There is a more objective sense where the elite is a set of people evidently more skilled in some way than the ordinary practitioners in the field.
Certainly in my experience some of the very top of the elite - the crème de la crème de la crème are truly exceptional people, not least by their exceptional humility and unpretentiousness.
quote:
Is the core problem that the 'elite' in this second sense prevents the truly able from being part of the 'elite' in the first sense?
I recall an upstart couple who visited us many years ago and complained, during our attempts to reshape the world, that the Spring Harvest leadership was "a cartel". The last time I looked, they had become part of that team. Can't work out what that signifies in the course of this debate.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
getting a job partly based on connections is not uncommon, and yes I've seen it happen even in Canadian companies (in the two sectors that I'm most familiar with).
And some of this looks pretty harmless. Given two reasonable-looking candidates, one with a good reference from someone you know and trust, and one with a good reference from someone you've never heard of, which one do you hire?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Don't know whether this is relevant, but interesting to see that according to the usual fount of all knowledge Nash himself seems not to have been out of the top drawer socially, by a long chalk (minor public school and no money for university at first).
That's a very interesting article in the context of UK evangelical elitism. Of course Gumbel must be a product of Iwerne (how could he not be). One of the sources quoted says Alpha is quote:
basically the Iwerne camp talk scheme with charismatic stuff added on
And it turns out that one of the articles quoted in the references was written by the guy I recruited to succeed me as CU rep in my college
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) So near and yet so far from the Inner Ring ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
When speaking of a Scottish 'elite' its interesting that you all think in terms of school and politics.
But if you look at Scottish public life for the past 50 years you'll see that the 'elite' in Scotland are those people with connections to the Labour Party, particularly those from Edinburgh or Glasgow.
An 'elite' isn't just found among the OBs and OGs of independent schools.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
So more than half of some of the positions in society where people can make a real difference are filled by people who went to fee-paying schools, and we are saying that 'something needs to be done about it'?
Make a real difference? As in privileged people ensuring that already privileged people retain their privileged lives?
Just what kind of difference are the majority of these people in power who went to fee-paying schools actually making to those who didn't go to fee-paying schools? Oh, let me see, they are 'cracking down on benefits fraud'; they are 'ensuring that people are not parked on disability benefits for years', they have 'introduced the spare-room subsidy'. Oh yes, what joy and Christian charity they have spread to the poorest in our nation. They have made a difference indeed!
You are correlating some of the policies of the current coalition administration with those members who went to fee-paying schools then.
Is that a fair assessment?
I think so, since the majority of those who attend fee-paying schools are surely bound to see everything from their privileged perspective. This gives them every motive to retain the status quo of their privilege. Certainly the track record of MPs who went to fee-paying schools tends towards the far-from-benevolent.
When I was growing up, Eton was perceived as some sort of strange 'posh' school with peculiar traditions and costumes which had no basis in reality. Now the prime minister, the mayor of London, and even the Archbishop of Canterbury all went there. How can they have any idea of what 'ordinary people' (assuming there is such a thing) feel or experience?
I'm tired of hearing these people pontificating from the top of Mount Olympus when they have no idea what it's like to live on the plains below.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
What are these public school people missing out on, apart from struggling to make ends meet (possibly).
We discuss these people as if they don't get out and talk to 'ordinary' people. As if they don't hold surgeries or hold focus groups.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Smell the prejudice! Smell the hatred!
Eton is, by all accounts, a very good school. However, I'd never want to send any of my (hypothetical) kids there if I had all the money in the world, as for the rest of their lives they'd have to put up with uninformed people pontificating about how they must all be bigots and toffs with no idea about 'real life'.
[ETA: In response to Amika]
[ 28. August 2014, 20:46: Message edited by: Dinghy Sailor ]
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
We discuss these people as if they don't get out and talk to 'ordinary' people.
A lot of them don't, some can be incredibly insular while not realising it.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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