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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Any Canadians actually sentimental about Tim Hortons?
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
With news of the recent merger, of course the media has been full of stories about how the donut-chain is a much-beloved Canadian institution that has succeeded by tapping deep into Canadians' sense of patriotism and blah blah blah.
But does anyone actually feel that way about the company, or even know someone who does? I've always been pretty cynical about it myself. I mean, I'll happily go there when I'm back in Canada and someone suggests meeting up, but that's about it. No emotional connection beyond that.
And in none of the comments sections or message boards have I seen people writing stuff like "No! No! Not Tim Horton's, sold down the river to the American Empire!" Even as the featured article informs us that "Canadians love their Timmies."
Granted, the chain must be doing something right, because as far as I know their profits are through the roof(low-paid T4Ws probably help as well). But my guess is that the patriotism in the ads is more just something to grab attention, and put the brand name in peoples' heads, rather than establish any long-lasting affection, even at a subconcious level. Sorta like you remember the name of a stereo store because their ads have a hot chick in a bikini, even though you don't actually go there expecting to see her.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
My only worry will be that whatever quality Tim's has had will be flushed away by bean-counters. Various other (American-based) coffee&donut chains have tried here and foundered because of that attitude.
Anecdotally, I have never seen coffee shops as dirty as the few Dunkin' Donuts I have tried. And, at the silly level, I can recall trying to buy a donut at DD in Skowhegan on July 4, but they had run out of them...at 3 PM! No Tim's would be that slovenly.
I'm sure that the marketing will continue to be aimed for Canadians in Canada, and adjusted for Americans in their space, and that is OK.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Alas, the Tim Horton food in the United States will probably be adjusted to be the new Breakfast Menu for Burger King. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) If you've ever had the Burger King attempt at a bagel (Think injection molded hamburger bun in the shape of a bagel you can guess what that means.
A lot of the motivation for the merger is to shield Burger King's profits from American taxes by pretending it's a Canadian corporation. Since a number of big companies are doing this, it may not be useful if Congress changes tax laws and the American income is once again taxed. At that point it will be kept solely based on profits.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not really. The Hudsons Bay Company seemed more significant.
"This land ain't your land, this land ain't my land
This Canada, this pie in the sky land
While we are sighing, America is buying
This land that was made for you and me."
or maybe we should read "China" or the "1%" for America in this (?)
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Unlike the United States, Canada (and the rest of the G7) has moved to a territorial taxation system. It also has a lower corporate tax rate than the United States. Yes, shock/horror, Canada along with the rest of the developed world has recognized that an onerous corporate tax structure makes you hugely anti competitive in a global economy. Burger King gets something like 40% of its revenue outside the United States. The territorial taxation aspect, aside from the lower rate, stand to put Burger King (whose food is terrible) in a much better competitive position. It is responsible to its shareholders to be as profitable as possible.
[ 29. August 2014, 01:14: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Yup, and that awesome responsibility to the shareholders is why they'll probably eventually relocate to Ireland, Luxemburg or the Cayman Islands where it's understood that Corporations shouldn't pay significant taxes.
But that responsibility to shareholders just amplifies my point that if there isn't a tax dodge they'll cheerfully do what ever is better for the stockholders with no concern on what's good for America or Canada.
[ 29. August 2014, 01:22: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
No, not really. Tim Horton's was owned by Wendy's for ten years with no ill effect; the only actually result was a bunch of co-locations.
Wendy's sold Tim's in an IPO five years ago that was of course massively popular with Canadian investors. Burger King's owners probably view that as a put option so that if their investment doesn't work out for them, especially re the tax thing, they can offload Tim's through an IPO on the Toronto Stock Exchange whence it came.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It was made very clear to me by our own Mr John Holding that my visit to Canada would not be complete without a visit to Tim Hortons.
I actually think it ended up being a couple of visits, so I can't have minded the first time. As best I can recall, they had quite decent coffee which is something that chain stores in North America appear to struggle with.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
As far as the OP is concerned, I have not heard anyone speak about it, but there is stuff on the news.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
With news of the recent merger, of course the media has been full of stories about how the donut-chain is a much-beloved Canadian institution that has succeeded by tapping deep into Canadians' sense of patriotism and blah blah blah.
I would hope Canada has more to be patriotic about than a chain of doughnut stores. If not then Burger King buying Tim Horton's is the least of their problems.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I recall a mild aghast response, with the emphasis on on mild, when Disney got the rights to the image and marketting of the RCMP.
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Unlike the United States, Canada (and the rest of the G7) has moved to a territorial taxation system. ...
Oh, really? My understanding is that both use similar rules of residency and permanent establishment to tax the various sources of world income, which are coordinated through a tax treaty to ensure the same income is not taxed in both countries. There is some difference between Canada and the US regarding the concept of "mind and management" as it relates to residency, but I don't think it is right to state that Canada has changed the way it taxes corporations, or that either use a territorial system.
Canada simply has a lower overall corporate tax rate.
As others have said, Tim's used to be owned by Wendy's.
I drink coffee from Tim's all the time, but don't have what I would call a sentimental relationship with it. I do, however, like the new dark roast they have recently been selling.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I would hope Canada has more to be patriotic about than a chain of doughnut stores. If not then Burger King buying Tim Horton's is the least of their problems.
Patriotism is the last refuge of our Prime Minister, who is trying to gin it up through appeals to such events as remembrance of the War of 1812. (This has generated more puzzlement than patriotism, because beyond the Niagara Region, nobody gives much of a damn about the War of 1812.)
Canadians are genuinely patriotic about our health care system, and to a lesser extent our hockey, and to an even lesser extent our military. Although certain companies (Molson, Canadian Tire, Tim Horton's) have attempted to capitalize on patriotism and entwine themselves into the national psyche, I don't think there would be national mourning if Tim Horton's disappeared to be replaced by someone else selling reasonably priced coffee.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Although certain companies (Molson, Canadian Tire, Tim Horton's) have attempted to capitalize on patriotism and entwine themselves into the national psyche, I don't think there would be national mourning if Tim Horton's disappeared to be replaced by someone else selling reasonably priced coffee.
Well that's good to hear!
(PS You still have Blackberry...hah)
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Leaf wrote:
quote:
Patriotism is the last refuge of our Prime Minister, who is trying to gin it up through appeals to such events as remembrance of the War of 1812. (This has generated more puzzlement than patriotism, because beyond the Niagara Region, nobody gives much of a damn about the War of 1812.)
That was odd in a number of ways. Especially given that, since at least Mulroney, the Conservatives have been viewed as the most continentalist and pro-American of the two parties(and yes, I realize that the current party is technically different from Mulroney's, but they're basically the same as far as those issues go).
I think Harper mostly saw the 1812 party as an opportunity to boost militarism, possibly connected to the fact that(if I understand things correctly), military spending under the Cons is even lower than it was under the supposedly crypto-Communist Trudeau Liberals. But doing a lot of symbolic military boosterism gets his party denounced as fascist by left-wingers, which perversely plays to his western and suburban base.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Unlike the United States, Canada (and the rest of the G7) has moved to a territorial taxation system. ...
Oh, really? My understanding is that both use similar rules of residency and permanent establishment to tax the various sources of world income, which are coordinated through a tax treaty to ensure the same income is not taxed in both countries. There is some difference between Canada and the US regarding the concept of "mind and management" as it relates to residency, but I don't think it is right to state that Canada has changed the way it taxes corporations, or that either use a territorial system.
Canada simply has a lower overall corporate tax rate.
As others have said, Tim's used to be owned by Wendy's.
I drink coffee from Tim's all the time, but don't have what I would call a sentimental relationship with it. I do, however, like the new dark roast they have recently been selling.
Welcome back!
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Although certain companies (Molson, Canadian Tire, Tim Horton's) have attempted to capitalize on patriotism and entwine themselves into the national psyche
Remember those "I am Canadian" ads from the early 2000s? I heard the song from them being sung by revellers in the Edmonton river valley, on their way to a July 1st street party on the south side.
The street party degenerated into a drunken riot, for which many commentators blamed Molsons(for hosting a beer garden across the river).
I Am Canadian anthem
Incidentally, while I am quite hostile to Canadian nationalism(and especially its corporate appropriation), I will say that those Molson ads were far superior to the Tim Hortons ones, which lazily latch onto hockey and whatnot, in the most superficial way possible.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I have an irrational addiction to Timmie's donuts, does that count?
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Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
I've been thinking about opening a Tim Horton's in Arizona when I retire. Lot's of Canadian Snowbirds in the Phoenix area.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
Perhaps I should review the rules on the use of the apostrophe. Or, stop posting after I have been sampling the scotch.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Canada simply has a lower overall corporate tax rate.
This article has a fairly concise summary of the advantages offered to Burger King by becoming Canadian beyond the lower overall rate. Link. I would assume repatriation of income without a tax penalty is something they are interested in.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Growing up in Vancouver, I was spared the Tim Horton's culture back east. Being this close to Seattle meant one could not escape from the juggernaut that is Starbucks.
In the late 90s and early 00s, there was a class ideology associated with the two. Tim Hortons' represented working class Canadians who needed a quick double double on their way to slave for their corporate or state masters. Starbucks was the coffee of choice for bourgeois upper to middle class professionals who ended their nights with overpriced martinis.
People who went to independent coffee shops were typically university students who still dreamed of a world beyond capitalism.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I've only lived in Canada for 6 months, but I'm a Timmy fan. So less pretentious than Starf*cks and the others. You get a decent cup of coffee and a decent doughnut for not a lot of dosh. What's not to like?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Hehe,"The Big Triple", triple cream and triple sugar, is known as a Poor Man's Cappuccino. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
Having lived in Maine for nearly forty years, within two hours of the Canadian border, I have come to realize the extent to which Tim Horton's is indeed --- so far as I can see --- an iconic part of Canadian culture. Every town in the Maritimes and Quebec with a population above a couple thousand has at least one Tim's, and it is more than apparent to this Yankee that it is the Canadian equivalent of the old-fashioned country store with a pickle barrel surrounded by rocking chairs: THE place in town where people gather to take a breather and talk.
Dunkin' Donuts is New England's equivalent of this. That said, however, Tim's, IMHO, has much better coffee and certainly a wider variety of food. Maine has several dozen Tim Horton's outlets, and the company is planning to eventually build some fifty of them. I'm delighted by that; I love the place --- and I say that as a person with nearly 350 years' worth of New England blood coursing through my coffee-loving veins.
From what I have read during the past few days regarding Burger King's owners, it appears they're aware of what they're buying and have no plans to change anything. Time will tell.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
Having lived in Maine for nearly forty years, within two hours of the Canadian border, I have come to realize the extent to which Tim Horton's is indeed --- so far as I can see --- an iconic part of Canadian culture. Every town in the Maritimes and Quebec with a population above a couple thousand has at least one Tim's, and it is more than apparent to this Yankee that it is the Canadian equivalent of the old-fashioned country store with a pickle barrel surrounded by rocking chairs: THE place in town where people gather to take a breather and talk.
Yes - that's what I've noticed about my local Tim's. You get all age ranges coming in. In one corner will be a group of old guys, discussing politics and in another will be three girls swapping notes on their latest boyfriends. I'm struggling to think of an example of anything remotely similar in the UK.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Growing up in Vancouver, I was spared the Tim Horton's culture back east. Being this close to Seattle meant one could not escape from the juggernaut that is Starbucks.
In the late 90s and early 00s, there was a class ideology associated with the two. Tim Hortons' represented working class Canadians who needed a quick double double on their way to slave for their corporate or state masters. Starbucks was the coffee of choice for bourgeois upper to middle class professionals who ended their nights with overpriced martinis.
People who went to independent coffee shops were typically university students who still dreamed of a world beyond capitalism.
What's odd is that, among those "world beyond capitalism" types, Starbucks is generally viewed as the epitome of globalizing evil. Whereas conservatives(and probably most centrists, in fact) tend to associate the chain with left-wing people.
I remember being told that CBC had characterized the election of Stephen Harper's Conservatives as "a shift from Starbucks to Tim Hortons". Being someone accustomed to a left-leaning political milieu, I initially found the symbolism confusing, accustomed as I was to the usual left-wing dislike of Starbucks.
[ 31. August 2014, 04:50: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I've only lived in Canada for 6 months, but I'm a Timmy fan. So less pretentious than Starf*cks and the others. You get a decent cup of coffee and a decent doughnut for not a lot of dosh. What's not to like?
Starbucks is expensive, but hardly pretentious.
Independents and micro-chain coffee holes tend to be the pretentious lot. And home to both the best and worst cups of addiction.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Starbucks is expensive, but hardly pretentious.
Oh? They've finally agreed to call the cup sizes "small", "medium" and "large", and the people who serve them up "counter help"?
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Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The only Starbucks here is not only dirty, but also infested by the pretentious. Second Cup (3 stores) is cleaner but somewhat more pretentious, judging by the number of laptops.
Tim's is the place to go for a good cross-section of the population. Moncton has 33 stores for a population of 120,000, with another 10 within an hour's drive in rural villages/small towns. So, yeah, our opinion may not be typical for all of Canada.
But there are now several independents taking the edge off Starsucks/Second Cup/Timothy's
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Second Cup (3 stores) is cleaner but somewhat more pretentious, judging by the number of laptops.
I was gonna say, Second Cup is my favorite. It's a nice halfway-house between the upscale sterility of Starbucks and the yahoo populism of Tim's.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Starbucks is expensive, but hardly pretentious.
Oh? They've finally agreed to call the cup sizes "small", "medium" and "large", and the people who serve them up "counter help"?
I find that the corporate chain-store nature of Starbucks blunted the edge out of whatever elitist pretensions they may have. It's basically like going into a McDonalds where everything has been given a fancy French name. Nomenclature aside, it's still a McDonalds.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Leaf wrote:
quote:
Patriotism is the last refuge of our Prime Minister, who is trying to gin it up through appeals to such events as remembrance of the War of 1812. (This has generated more puzzlement than patriotism, because beyond the Niagara Region, nobody gives much of a damn about the War of 1812.)
... I think Harper mostly saw the 1812 party as an opportunity to boost militarism, possibly connected to the fact that(if I understand things correctly), military spending under the Cons is even lower than it was under the supposedly crypto-Communist Trudeau Liberals. But doing a lot of symbolic military boosterism gets his party denounced as fascist by left-wingers, which perversely plays to his western and suburban base.
In politics, as in comedy, timing matters. The object wasn't to celebrate the War of 1812, it was to ignore the 30th anniversary of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Something which continues to have a significant daily impact on Canadian life and society, most of which the Harperites hate. And who was Prime Minister in 1982? Pierre Elliott Trudeau, whom the Harperites hate even more. No way they were going to celebrate that.
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Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
In politics, as in comedy, timing matters. The object wasn't to celebrate the War of 1812, it was to ignore the 30th anniversary of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Something which continues to have a significant daily impact on Canadian life and society, most of which the Harperites hate. And who was Prime Minister in 1982? Pierre Elliott Trudeau, whom the Harperites hate even more. No way they were going to celebrate that.
But if the Harperites didn't want to celebrate the Charter, wouldn't it have been a simple enough thing just not to celebrate it? It's not like the people who were outraged by the lack of Charter festivities are going to shut up just because Harper celebrated 1812.
That said, I think it's certainly the case that, broadly speaking, Harper wants to move away from celebrating the Liberal "vision" to celebrating the Conservative one, the latter being defined(oddly enough, given the pro-American stance of modern Canadian conservativism) in distinctly anglophile terms.
So yes, Expo/Metric Bug/Charter out, 1812/monarchy/RCAF in. I'm just not entirely convinced that the 1812 fest was set up as a specific and conscious counterpoint to the Charter. But I guess I'm open to being convinced.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Starbucks is expensive, but hardly pretentious.
Oh? They've finally agreed to call the cup sizes "small", "medium" and "large", and the people who serve them up "counter help"?
What Stetson said. Walk into a Starbucks and order a medium and they will repeat your order substituting "Grande". But whether they sneer, smile or blankly stare, it will be the same if you use their nomenclature to start. The staff don't care.
For true coffee snobbery one needs to patronize a place that will patronize you. This is almost not a parody.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I would hope Canada has more to be patriotic about than a chain of doughnut stores. If not then Burger King buying Tim Horton's is the least of their problems.
Patriotism is the last refuge of our Prime Minister, who is trying to gin it up through appeals to such events as remembrance of the War of 1812. (This has generated more puzzlement than patriotism, because beyond the Niagara Region, nobody gives much of a damn about the War of 1812.)
Canadians are genuinely patriotic about our health care system, and to a lesser extent our hockey, and to an even lesser extent our military. Although certain companies (Molson, Canadian Tire, Tim Horton's) have attempted to capitalize on patriotism and entwine themselves into the national psyche, I don't think there would be national mourning if Tim Horton's disappeared to be replaced by someone else selling reasonably priced coffee.
Spoken like true Westerner, everything before the CPR isn't worth remembering. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
There was a whole lot more to the War of 1812 than just campaigns in Niagara.
The War of 1812 was part of the backdrop to Confederation. Confederation makes no sense unless you put it into perspective with the War of 1812. War of 1812/Rebellions of 1837/Responsible Government/Confederation. Consider, reflect and inwardly digest, preferably while considering Ontario's provincial motto: Ut incept Fidelis sic permanent; Loyal she began, Loyal she remains.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
SPK, I don't think it's going out on too much of a limb to say that The Harper Government has been keen on a militaristic, Granatsteinite historiography over social history. It's not that commemorating the War is itself a problem, it's how it ties into the PM's preferred narrative.
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Second Cup (3 stores) is cleaner but somewhat more pretentious, judging by the number of laptops.
I was gonna say, Second Cup is my favorite. It's a nice halfway-house between the upscale sterility of Starbucks and the yahoo populism of Tim's.
IIRC there is a single Second Cup in the US: on a college campus in Waukesha WI, which I know only as the home of the Order of Julian of Norwich.
The true proletarian choice is Coffee Time: a Communist friend in uni prided himself on patronizing it. Tim's have really tried to position themselves more upmarket in recent years. I recall being chagrined when the old Coffee Time next door to the Clarke Institute, which had been a haunt of patients, was replaced with a slick new Tim's with bathrooms you need to be buzzed into. (And of course Timmy's is not to be confused with Timothy's, which is rather more like Second Cup. I haven't seen any since moving to Québec, though we have lots of Café Dépôts here, which I've not seen elsewhere).
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Growing up in Vancouver, I was spared the Tim Horton's culture back east. Being this close to Seattle meant one could not escape from the juggernaut that is Starbucks.
I have been to the intersection in Van with Starbuckses on three out of four corners!
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
To dismiss the War of 1812 is just wrong. We can do as much social history as we want, the event still matters.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Actually, I think that the importance of the War of 1812 has to do with the marginalization of the First Nations and, additionally, the beginning of the British realizing that they had a colony and trying to figure out if they really wanted it.
I fear that, as an aficionado of independent coffee houses, I have long relied on Planet Coffee and Blumenstudio in Ottawa to serve as my locals. To my view, Tim's is only useful for road coffee on long drives when a real espresso joint is unavailable. I do not espouse the hate-starbuck's narrative of my bolshie friends, and I have always found their staff agreeable and efficient.
But, back to the OP. Last night I heard the first reference to the Tim's purchase-- two of the people at the table thought it had always belonged to Wendy's. No-one seemed deeply moved or troubled in the least by it, although the media seem quite excited.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Augustine wrote:
quote:
I do not espouse the hate-starbuck's narrative of my bolshie friends
Downtown Edmonton used to have a cafe called Baraka that was very much the "anti-Starbucks" of its day. Dollar-a-cup, and they pretty much let you sit there all day if you wanted. That, and it's location right on the dividing line between the financial district(*) and the inner-city, gave it an interesting cross-section of social classes among its clientele.
Thing is, though, in my left-leaning social circle, I seemed to be the only person who really enjoyed it; everyone else complained about the bad lighting and the consistently dirty washrooms. Suffice to say there was no widespread mourning among progressives when it closed down and was replaced by a Starbucks.
So, whenever I hear these anti-globalization types go on about "Aw man, these corporate chains are driving the local based shops out of business", I think "Do you actually like those local places, or are you just claiming to because it's the orthodox thing to say"?
(*) I've never heard anybody in Edmonton actually call it that, but I'm feeling kinda pretentious today, and anyway wikipedia backs up the usage.
[ 01. September 2014, 07:32: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
LQ wrote:
quote:
I recall being chagrined when the old Coffee Time next door to the Clarke Institute, which had been a haunt of patients, was replaced with a slick new Tim's with bathrooms you need to be buzzed into.
I was once at a Second Cup in Toronto where you needed a key to get into the washrooms. The sign on the door said "Due to the sensitive issue of misuse of restrooms, a key is now required to enter".
Yeah, "sensitive issue". The phrasing was just such a perfect encapsulation of the hybrid of belaboured tolerance and residual prudery that characterizes social liberalism in Toronto The Good.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
It's a global world in business - how upset did Americans get during the 12 years Burger King was British?
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
It's a global world in business - how upset did Americans get during the 12 years Burger King was British?
Yeah, I vaguely remembered hearing about that. Thanks for confirming.
It seems to me that with this current merger, the perception is very much that Burger King instigated the deal, as part of a scheme to get out of paying American taxes. Not sure, but that might be a difference between now and the period of British ownership.
On the Caanadian side, there does seem to be a similar inconsistency between how this deal is being perceived(ie. nationalist angst among the chattering classes) and how the Wendy's deal was perceived. One thing to keep in mind was that Wendy's bought TH in 1995, before the company had gone whole-hog into its "More Canadian than maple syrup" marketing schtick.
Plus, the Wendy's deal probably wasn't a huge issue south of the border, whereas the BK deal is(due to the aforementioned tax issues). So some of the fireworks could be spreading over into Canadian media as well.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Another thing to consider, as far as American perception goes, is that we are now in the post-2008, post-Occupy, anti-1% era, and there is probably less tolerance generally for corporations blatantly trying to screw governments out of taxes. Especially when it's a company that has long cultviated a high-profile image and solicited public affection.
If it were a company called General Amalgamated Holdings, producing technology that the average person has never heard of, it might not be getting quite the same press.
[ 01. September 2014, 08:36: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Stetson: quote:
So, whenever I hear these anti-globalization types go on about "Aw man, these corporate chains are driving the local based shops out of business", I think "Do you actually like those local places, or are you just claiming to because it's the orthodox thing to say"?
Around here, the "local" coffee shops are competing head-on with Starsucks, etc., by being clean, personal, and comfortable. Their clienteles are happy that the invasion of laptops is confined to pretentious places.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
To dismiss the War of 1812 is just wrong. We can do as much social history as we want, the event still matters.
It certainly would be wrong, but I can think of no one who would suggest it (abuse doesn't argue against use). The linked article is worth reading in full.
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
On the Canadian side, there does seem to be a similar inconsistency between how this deal is being perceived(ie. nationalist angst among the chattering classes) and how the Wendy's deal was perceived. One thing to keep in mind was that Wendy's bought TH in 1995, before the company had gone whole-hog into its "More Canadian than maple syrup" marketing schtick.
Yes, the comment about HBC upthread is germane. Cultural icon though Timmy's may be, it's not like it predates the dominion or was the effective government of most of its land mass!
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Well, actually the de facto tax rate difference between Canada and the U.S. isn't that great. On paper, the U.S. tax rate is quite a bit higher, but no corporation actually pays the full percentage as there are a list of deductions that bring the tax rate down.
Currently, Burger King pays about 27% and Tim Horton's pays about 27%. The tax savings is nil from this deal.
See: New Yorker Magazine: Is the Burger King-Tim Hortons Deal About More Than Taxes?
All that said, as a Canadian I've never understood the allure. When I lived in Calgary and Ottawa, I was always easily able to find much better fast food at a small local diner.
[ 01. September 2014, 13:28: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Another thing to consider, as far as American perception goes, is that we are now in the post-2008, post-Occupy, anti-1% era, and there is probably less tolerance generally for corporations blatantly trying to screw governments out of taxes. Especially when it's a company that has long cultviated a high-profile image and solicited public affection.
The occupy movement didn't manifest in anything coherent or lasting in my opinion. I also doubt if it has done much to broadly shape perceptions. Apple to take one example certainly hasn't suffered a hit in this regard. They are masterful in minimizing their tax footprint, have moved many jobs overseas, and keep literally billions of dollars offshore.
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