Ship of Fools: Be a monk or a nun for a year at Lambeth Palace

Thread: Be a monk or a nun for a year at Lambeth Palace Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Justin Welby is opening up Lambeth Palace to young people to experience the monastic life. Article here.

quote:
Young people in Britain are being invited to become a monk or a nun for a year. Their Abbot will be the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby.

Archbishop Welby is opening up his medieval London home, Lambeth Palace, to young adults aged 20-35 who wish to spend a year living, studying and praying alongside him, his staff and the existing ecumenical Chemin Neuf community.

I think it's a brilliant idea!

Thoughts?

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I can think of a number of reasons why a young person might want to be a monk or nun at Lambeth Palace.

They may want to explore the monastic lifestyle.
They may want to hobnob with the famous.

They may have a deep personal interest in the theological work of the arch bishop.

They may want to see if they can work their way up the corridors of institutional power.

They may be looking for room and board.

I think that the first goal would be better served by working at a more typical monastery or perhaps in a group that serves the people in the poorer part of time. As for the other choices, they're too depressing to contemplate.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Great idea!
Especially the cake at 1:24 in the video!
Would do it in a heartbeat but am too old.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

I'm too old.

You are even older than me.

[Devil]

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

I wasn't thinking about us old toffs. [Razz]

But what a great opportunity for young christians seeking positive intentional community!

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I can think of a number of reasons why a young person might want to be a monk or nun at Lambeth Palace.

They may want to explore the monastic lifestyle.
They may want to hobnob with the famous.

They may have a deep personal interest in the theological work of the arch bishop.

They may want to see if they can work their way up the corridors of institutional power.

They may be looking for room and board.

I think that the first goal would be better served by working at a more typical monastery or perhaps in a group that serves the people in the poorer part of time. As for the other choices, they're too depressing to contemplate.

Bit cynical there? [Eek!]

Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I can think of a number of reasons why a young person might want to be a monk or nun at Lambeth Palace.

They may want to explore the monastic lifestyle.
They may want to hobnob with the famous.

They may have a deep personal interest in the theological work of the arch bishop.

They may want to see if they can work their way up the corridors of institutional power.

They may be looking for room and board..

quote:
Bit cynical there?

Thinking of the history of monasticism, surely t'was ever thus? (Note that I very much approve of this undertaking - I agree that the restoration of the religious life would do wonders for the Church of England.)

x

AV

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I wasn't thinking about us old toffs. But what a great opportunity for young christians seeking positive intentional community!

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I can think of a number of reasons why a young person might want to be a monk or nun at Lambeth Palace.

They may want to explore the monastic lifestyle.
They may want to hobnob with the famous.

They may have a deep personal interest in the theological work of the arch bishop.

They may want to see if they can work their way up the corridors of institutional power.

They may be looking for room and board.

I think that the first goal would be better served by working at a more typical monastery or perhaps in a group that serves the people in the poorer part of time. As for the other choices, they're too depressing to contemplate.
Bit cynical there?

Dunno, any bets on whether someone is planning to do a documentary on this ?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

I share some of the cynicism -- if it does go ahead, it will have little validity if it is populated by HTB or other nice middle class people. It needs a few people with different life experiences.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

On the other hand, ExclamationMark, it could provide a much-needed corrective to the HTB types ...

I think I'd be happier with the project if the experiment was taking place somewhere other than Lambeth Palace, but I suppose it's a start.

A century and a bit ago, there was a tremendous upsurge in Anglican religious orders ... some of them quite posh and well-connected, but others which genuinely did get their sleeves rolled up and their hands dirty.

Theirs is a largely untold story. The whole thing has all but fizzled out now, though.

I don't see evidence of any real revival of the 'religious life' in contemporary Anglicanism but I would welcome it if it came ... all the more so if it extended beyond the HTB end of things.

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

54 years too late for me, but would have applied when I was 22. Doubt I'd have been accepted though.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

I'm the right age. And it sounds fascinating and fun. [Devil]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

You can do this at any age at most monasteries - it's called being an Alongsider.

Posted by Joan Rasch (# 49) on :

This idea of a monastic-style internship is not so new - the Society of St John the Evangelist is beginning the fourth year of its monastic internships for young adults. The men and women who take part in this program have the advantage of being part of a long-standing community which has deep experience of being guides and companions to people seeking to enrich their life with God - whether it's people seeking spiritual direction or those discerning a vocation as monks.

I certainly hope nothing but the best for this new project at Lambeth, but I hope they will consider partnering with an established religious community.

cheers from Boston /Joan

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Joan Rasch:

I certainly hope nothing but the best for this new project at Lambeth, but I hope they will consider partnering with an established religious community.

Well now, I had assumed when I saw the announcement that it was an extension of the community already in residence at Lambeth. (In fact, before I read past the headline I thought it was just an old news item about Chemin Neuf). Perhaps that's not the case? I don't see how they could operate completely independently of each other, though, at least insofar as they're neighbours.

[ 07. September 2014, 21:56: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

So Justin Welby is to be their Abbot. He does realise that abbots are supposed to observe the same rules of poverty, chastity and obedience as all the other monks or nuns? But let's not hold our breath.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Dunno, any bets on whether someone is planning to do a documentary on this ?

No, no! A reality show!!! [Big Grin]

It could be called Keeping Up with the Cistercians.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

In what way is this different from past initiatives where young adults were encouraged to give up a year (or more) for God? Over 30 years ago, my best man spent some two years on such a scheme. A small group of them lived in a rented house in a run down area of the north of England. They created a "Rule of Life", which focussed heavily on prayer and scripture reading. They were self supporting and those not in employment were expected to be using their time in active support of the local church.

I thought it was a great scheme. The group certainly had a powerful impact upon the local, rather run down, Anglican church.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Just re-read and thought
"'Chemin Neuf??'" shouldn't that be "Chemin Neuf and 3/4?"

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

I can't help feeling a bit miffed about this. I'm in my early 50s and would love to spend 6 months or a year with a community when I (hope to) retire next year. But not only is this out-of-bounds for me - many communities now won't take you on if you're over 40 or over 50.

When did the CofE get so ageist?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I share some of the cynicism -- if it does go ahead, it will have little validity if it is populated by HTB or other nice middle class people. It needs a few people with different life experiences.

I would have thought it's more of an ask for the materially comfortable to commit to a year of monastic living.

And despite the stereotype, being a London church HTB and its affiliates have plenty of young people who are not middle class.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I can't help feeling a bit miffed about this. I'm in my early 50s and would love to spend 6 months or a year with a community when I (hope to) retire next year. But not only is this out-of-bounds for me - many communities now won't take you on if you're over 40 or over 50.

When did the CofE get so ageist?

I'm afraid the CofE think that laws on age discrimination don't apply to them, for some reason - it's really quite common around here to see mid-week groups limited to under 30's or under 40's, even where they used to be open to everyone a few years ago.

Just one more reason not to bother, I suppose.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I wasn't thinking about us old toffs.

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I think that the first goal would be better served by working at a more typical monastery or perhaps in a group that serves the people in the poorer part of time. As for the other choices, they're too depressing to contemplate.
Bit cynical there?
Dunno, any bets on whether someone is planning to do a documentary on this ?

I'm inclined to be a bit cynical whenever a project has a narrow age limit. What are the goals of the project? Why screen out the ages looking for career change which are often about 35 to 45 and again 55 to 70?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm inclined to be a bit cynical whenever a project has a narrow age limit. What are the goals of the project? Why screen out the ages looking for career change which are often about 35 to 45 and again 55 to 70?

Probably because there's a great deal made about the lack of opportunities for young people, and because the average age of a CofE churchgoer is somewhere north of 60 which is not sustainable for the church's future.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Probably because there's a great deal made about the lack of opportunities for young people, and because the average age of a CofE churchgoer is somewhere north of 60 which is not sustainable for the church's future.

It's very sustainable if you keep doing things that persuade 60-somethings to return, or go, to church. This doesn't fall into that class of things.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Probably because there's a great deal made about the lack of opportunities for young people, and because the average age of a CofE churchgoer is somewhere north of 60 which is not sustainable for the church's future.
It's very sustainable if you keep doing things that persuade 60-somethings to return, or go, to church. This doesn't fall into that class of things.

They're still going to die in 20-30 years.

20 year olds short of accidents or tragic illness will not, and they'll probably have a few kids to add to the church as well.

[ 08. September 2014, 15:56: Message edited by: seekingsister ]

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Probably because there's a great deal made about the lack of opportunities for young people, and because the average age of a CofE churchgoer is somewhere north of 60 which is not sustainable for the church's future.

Alternatively, because it gives the project a spurious air of relevance and trendiness, and gives the impression that Lambeth Palace has transformed itself into a place full of youthful energy and enthusiasm, replacing the stodgy formality of the previous regime under Old Beardy.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Alternatively, because it gives the project a spurious air of relevance and trendiness, and gives the impression that Lambeth Palace has transformed itself into a place full of youthful energy and enthusiasm, replacing the stodgy formality of the previous regime under Old Beardy.

If you wish to believe that, but all reality-based information points to the fact that young people need quite a lot of help.

Young people fared worst in recession.

Young people have been disproportionally affected by the recession.

Add that to the age statistics for the CofE and it's a no-brainer. Let's give young people an opportunity to strengthen their faith and open them to a potential career in service to the church.

I wonder if people don't agree with internships and apprenticeships being for young people as well.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I can't help feeling a bit miffed about this. I'm in my early 50s and would love to spend 6 months or a year with a community when I (hope to) retire next year. But not only is this out-of-bounds for me - many communities now won't take you on if you're over 40 or over 50.

When did the CofE get so ageist?

In my experience, the CofE communities tend to be more flexible than many Catholic ones in terms of age, and also health and mental health issues. One I know of is accepting a woman in her 70s to be an Alongsider, with the idea that she may go on to be a Postulant and then take vows. If you are interested, try contacting them and talking about it - though their websites might say one thing, the reality is often different.

The initial reasoning behind the age and health thing is that if you join a community and take vows, you are to be contributing to that community, and the monastic life is hard work - getting up early, going to chapel often seven times a day, doing manual work, etc. So this is likely to be more difficult for someone who is elderly, or someone who is in very poor health. But each person's situation is different, and the CofE communities seem to be quite good at acknowledging this and taking each situation individually. And so do many Catholic communities nowadays. Most people who become nuns or monks nowadays tend to be older - 40 or over - as opposed to a few decades ago when most were in their early 20s.

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :

I'm not sure it's really possible to see Religious Life as a 'career'.

Also, joining a traditional monastic community would be a different proposition to spending a year living with people broadly within your own age group, supported by Lambeth Palace, with everyone interested in how you're getting on.

I don't agree with the marketing, though I think the idea is terrific in itself. The people who live there may well be forming an intentional community - which is excellent - but calling them 'monks and nuns for a year' is a little misleading, in my view.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

What I think is really good about this project is that it's raising awareness of the fact that Anglicans can become nuns and monks, just as Catholics can. That you don't have to be a Catholic to become a nun or monk. This is something that in reality a lot of people are not aware of, and Anglican monastics are aware of this and wanting to make people aware and not knowing how to do it. This Lambeth Palace thing might be a bit gimmicky and trendy, but that's what tends to work in terms of raising awareness.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
I'm not sure it's really possible to see Religious Life as a 'career'.

It's not a traditional monastic community, and I think it's certainly hoping to get at least some of the people who participate interested in entering church ministry. There will be a new intake every year and the previous group will be made to depart.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
I'm not sure it's really possible to see Religious Life as a 'career'.
It's not a traditional monastic community, and I think it's certainly hoping to get at least some of the people who participate interested in entering church ministry. There will be a new intake every year and the previous group will be made to depart.

Even in traditional monastic communities, those interested spend some months doing the monastic equivalent of an apprenticeship. Whether you call it a career or a vocation is not really the point - the idea is that you have to try it out to see if you are suited, and if you are not, you can go onto different areas of working within the church, or do something completely different. But it's a starting point. And a good way to have some time in prayer and silence and reflection, and to listen to God.

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :

I know it's not a traditional community, my picking up on 'career' was not related to that.

I know that alongsider schemes and, to a certain extent, time as a postulant is a 'test out' time. However, I think that's totally different, and that's the point I was getting at. On those schemes you are entering an already functioning community, with all the benefits of having people to learn from, who may have spent many decades living that life. If someone loves spending a year at Lambeth then there's no guarantee they'd like life in a traditional community because it's so different. Depending on what they liked about Lambeth, I suppose.

My point was that this doesn't look much like the monastic life to me, and I don't think it's trying to be in one sense, but that's what they're calling it so it's a bit confusing!

I certainly agree that getting people inspired to take faith seriously, and raise awareness of RL is a fantastic thing. I hope it is very fruitful.

[ 08. September 2014, 17:58: Message edited by: Masha ]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
I know that alongsider schemes and, to a certain extent, time as a postulant is a 'test out' time. However, I think that's totally different, and that's the point I was getting at. On those schemes you are entering an already functioning community, with all the benefits of having people to learn from, who may have spent many decades living that life. If someone loves spending a year at Lambeth then there's no guarantee they'd like life in a traditional community because it's so different. Depending on what they liked about Lambeth, I suppose.

My point was that this doesn't look much like the monastic life to me, and I don't think it's trying to be in one sense, but that's what they're calling it so it's a bit confusing!

I think it definitely seems different from the traditional way of doing it, although it has some things in common - living in community, living by a rule that covers areas like money and relationships, praying and working regularly, and the daily rhythm of silence, study and prayer.

Monastic communities are all changing nowadays, and are all different, and spending several months in any community would not necessarily let you know whether you'd like life in a different community - many people spend time in several before they make up their mind. But the overall disciplines of silence, work, regular prayer apply to most communities I think, and would be useful to experience even in this particular unusual setting.

And there are traditional communities where most members are new, due to older members dying or leaving, and where it is a case of the members almost starting from scratch, having to build up a community and make new rules. And also there are brand new communities that are created - maybe this will result in young people starting new communities, which could be a very positive thing.

Monastic life does seem to be going through a bit of a crisis at the moment, from what I can see. There are communities full of old people very set in their ways, who on the one hand want to attract new people, but on the other hand aren't willing to change any of their outdated customs. Customs which can include shaming newcomers for making mistakes, insisting that members can't change their underwear every day (as that was seen as an extravagance in the time before washing machines, when many of the older nuns first entered the religious life), eating incredibly stodgy diets, not being allowed bananas (because bananas were rationed at the time when many nuns entered, so they are seen as a luxury), believing that newcomers shouldn't question anything but just accept it all quietly, etc. And there is a new generation of intelligent, questioning young people who have a calling to enter the religious life but are frustrated by these bizarre rules and customs which don't seem to have any relevance or any bearing on their faith.

So, to me, something like this sounds really positive. I'm sure it won't be perfect, and there will be much to criticise, but then isn't that the case for anything new and innovative? But honestly, if nothing new was attempted for fear of criticism and failure, there would be no progress. Something like this really needed to happen, and I'm glad it has, even though I am too old myself to do it.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Archbishop Welby is opening up his medieval London home, Lambeth Palace, to young adults aged 20-35 who wish to spend a year living, studying and praying alongside him, his staff and the existing ecumenical Chemin Neuf community.

The newly-formed Community of St Anselm will be formally launched with the first one-year monks and nuns in September next year. Members will subscribe to a Rule of Life, which has not yet been finalised but will likely cover all kinds of matters including money and relationships. Those who are single will be expected to be celibate, but membership is also open to married couples.

Does this not mean that they are tied to the Chemin Neuf community (whatever that is) anyway ?

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Doublethink, yes, following the links reveals a lot more information about it. It's really not as haphazard as people seem to think!

quote:
'Earlier this year the Archbishop invited four members of Chemin Neuf, a Roman Catholic community with an ecumenical vocation, to live and pray at Lambeth Palace. The Community of St Anselm will live and pray alongside Chemin Neuf each day.'

They are also recruiting for a Prior. I doubt Justin Welby will be very involved, and realistically, he'll have all other unrelated responsibilities - he will be overseeing it, but the Prior will be hands-on, working with and directing the community.

[ 08. September 2014, 18:59: Message edited by: Fineline ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Oh, the HTB graduate can't but help show his roots.

Why Chemin Neuf? Because they're foreign! Because with a French name they'll sound exotic. And perhaps therefore people won't so easily associate them with their great champion, John Paul II or, through their Ignatian roots, the Jesuits.

The most obvious people he should have turned to were the Community of the Resurrection and the Community of the Holy Name - the latter had a nun resident at Lambeth throughout ++Rowan's tenure there.

This has all the hall-marks of a reality TV show, and not a good one.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Fineline: What I think is really good about this project is that it's raising awareness of the fact that Anglicans can become nuns and monks, just as Catholics can.

I met a Lutheran nun a couple of weeks ago. TBH that was a bit of a surprise to me. I didn't know those existed.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Probably because there's a great deal made about the lack of opportunities for young people, and because the average age of a CofE churchgoer is somewhere north of 60 which is not sustainable for the church's future.
It's very sustainable if you keep doing things that persuade 60-somethings to return, or go, to church. This doesn't fall into that class of things.
They're still going to die in 20-30 years.

20 year olds short of accidents or tragic illness will not, and they'll probably have a few kids to add to the church as well.

Sorry Seeking Sister but I know of a congregation that survived something like forty to fifty years on just such a policy. Indeed they only died when the work was taken away from them.

There are two reasons for this. Firstly I have always noticed that when a congregation takes a missional task the congregation gets an influx of workers. Normally fewer than it would like but still an influx. It seems that Jesus' advice to pray to the Lord of the Harvest is good still. This does not happen in congregations without this outlook.

Secondly younger people are much more mobile than the elderly. Better to have an older person for the twenty years between 65 and 85 than to have someone younger for ten years because their job changes. Indeed as long as there are 65 year olds coming in to replace the 85 year olds the congregation can sustain itself indefinitely.

Jengie

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh, the HTB graduate can't but help show his roots.

Why Chemin Neuf? Because they're foreign! Because with a French name they'll sound exotic. And perhaps therefore people won't so easily associate them with their great champion, John Paul II or, through their Ignatian roots, the Jesuits.

The most obvious people he should have turned to were the Community of the Resurrection and the Community of the Holy Name - the latter had a nun resident at Lambeth throughout ++Rowan's tenure there.

This has all the hall-marks of a reality TV show, and not a good one.

Two reasons for Chemin Neuf at Canterbury must surely be, [a] +Justin is a fluent French speaker who lived in France for many years, and hence probably encountered that community on home ground, and [b] he first invited them to Liverpool Cathedral when he was Dean there. I also suspect that Chemin Neuf are more likely to be flexible in the sort of work they take on, and have more resources to do so. The only C of E community I can think of like this are the Franciscans, and they have pulled out of various places in recent years due to reducing numbers.

CR have retrenched and consolidated as a consciously monastic community in one house; they no longer are dispersed in branch houses as they once were. I don't know about CHN but I would imagine if they had been keen to stay at Lambeth +Justin would have welcomed them. (Actually I don't think it was CHN, but the Sisters of the Church)

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

PS... I doubt if there is much suspicion of Jesuits among Anglicans today. Many people have benefited from their teaching and guidance on spirituality, among them very many Anglicans from an evangelical background.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh, the HTB graduate can't but help show his roots.

Why Chemin Neuf? Because they're foreign! Because with a French name they'll sound exotic. And perhaps therefore people won't so easily associate them with their great champion, John Paul II or, through their Ignatian roots, the Jesuits.

The most obvious people he should have turned to were the Community of the Resurrection and the Community of the Holy Name - the latter had a nun resident at Lambeth throughout ++Rowan's tenure there.

I don't think real monks and nuns would do much for the brand image. [Biased]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

My first thought was 'how many will pair off after a few weeks'? Throw several 20-30 year olds together in a close environment, and that's what usually happens. High spiritual ideals, or no.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Fineline: What I think is really good about this project is that it's raising awareness of the fact that Anglicans can become nuns and monks, just as Catholics can.
I met a Lutheran nun a couple of weeks ago. TBH that was a bit of a surprise to me. I didn't know those existed.

Apart from Lutheran religious orders per se, the Sisterhood of St John the Divine in Toronto recently received the first vows of a Lutheran pastor and former deaconess. She remains a rostered pastor of the ELCiC and her "congregation" is the convent. (There is one other religious priest in the community, an Anglican).

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Sorry Seeking Sister but I know of a congregation that survived something like forty to fifty years on just such a policy. Indeed they only died when the work was taken away from them.

And I know a church - mine - that was about to be closed by the diocese because it only appealed to the elderly, and there were just 12 of them. Demographics meant that there weren't new elderly people to take their places when they went on to meet their Maker.

The plural of anecdote is not data!

However I can point to senior leadership - current and former - in the CofE who believe the lack of attention paid to young people will be the death of the church.

Like Carey and Sentamu or a CofE report that says young people don't even think about religion.

Where are the 65 year olds you speak of going to come from 40 years from now, if the 25 year olds are ambivalent entirely about Christianity?

If this program and others keep young people on the cusp of leaving home and starting their new lives from turning away from the church, it is a victory for them, their families, and the wider community.

It is sad that someone sees this plan for monastic opportunities for the young and their first thought is "Not fair because I'm over 35." I'm in the age range but due to life circumstances can't even consider participating, that doesn't mean I have sour grapes. Although being one of these wretched "HTB types" I'm sure many here are breathing a sigh of relief.

[ 09. September 2014, 07:55: Message edited by: seekingsister ]

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

I think it's an interesting idea. That I'm half a century too late is a matter of regret, not disapproval.

If there were a Church initiative for divorced and remarried pensioners, I hope those excluded by those criteria would not object.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Where are the 65 year olds you speak of going to come from 40 years from now, if the 25 year olds are ambivalent entirely about Christianity?

Many people take an interest in religion for the first time as they approach old age. When they were young, they felt immortal; now that they realize they're not, many of them show an interest in church.

Moo

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Anecdote can show a method can work though. Now I suspect there was a lot of difference between your congregation and that congregation. By working with older people they meant at one stage run the only service for older people in the local borough area. They ran a day centre that functioned with lunches five days a week. They did not set out to be the sole provider, they just set out to create a day centre which at the time was as much about youth unemployment as helping the elderly.

However, the result was that lots of elderly people were in contact with the day centre. Therefore for those people coming on a Sunday to church was just coming to the same welcoming place they came every other day of the week.

What it was not was about serving the people who were already there. They had a mission that went further than the local congregation.

Jengie

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Where are the 65 year olds you speak of going to come from 40 years from now, if the 25 year olds are ambivalent entirely about Christianity?

And how are you going to keep people engaged in the years between 35 and 65? Surely these are the hardest years to keep people involved because of all the competing targets for their time and energy. Maybe a twelve month sabbatical for someone in their forties or fifties might be helpful.

Anyway, my point is not about sour grapes, it's about the CofE setting a bad example by discriminating against people over a certain arbitrary age, for what looks for all the world like cosmetic reasons - "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to fill up fusty old Lambeth Pally with bright young people!"

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Many people take an interest in religion for the first time as they approach old age. When they were young, they felt immortal; now that they realize they're not, many of them show an interest in church.

Moo

The churches still have to be open and active, for them to have somewhere to turn to in the first place.

If the decline in attendance continues we will not have anywhere for the spiritually curious 65 year olds of 2054 to come in and ask questions.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Anyway, my point is not about sour grapes, it's about the CofE setting a bad example by discriminating against people over a certain arbitrary age, for what looks for all the world like cosmetic reasons - "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to fill up fusty old Lambeth Pally with bright young people!"

So it's a bad example for churches to target young people. Even given the things I've posted about how badly they've done in the recession, and how their lack of engagement in the church jeopardizes its future.

You are having a negative reaction to a quite nice program that will invite young people of all denominations to experience a unique opportunity, and justifying it by claiming that somehow it's a bad thing, to reach out to the young. It's sad to me, I'm sorry to say.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
"Hey, wouldn't it be cool to fill up fusty old Lambeth Pally with bright young people!"
So it's a bad example for churches to target young people. Even given the things I've posted about how badly they've done in the recession, and how their lack of engagement in the church jeopardizes its future.

Not bad to reach out to young people. Why can't we reach out to more than just young people? Where did the idea come from that young people want to avoid anyone over 40, that mid-age people dislike children or elderly, so we have to target youth as a separate group from the community instead of targeting community including them? Church is about the only place left where the generations can mix a people together, but my church has so separated the youth that they are expected to attend an entirely separate service on Sundays and are not allowed in adult choir!

Yes youth have problems, economic and otherwise. If economic need is the issue, I know personally know people who became homeless in their 50s, and a several in their 70s who had to go back to work somehow (like, in McDonalds) after the 2008 crash. At that age, there's no one to move back home into. People with economic problems are individuals of all ages. Some young adults earn more than their parents ever dreamed of, should we feel sorry for them just because they are 20-35?

If we are going to target specific groups, can't we do it interests or abilities or needs, not by external factors like age or race or gender that don't say a thing about who the individual is?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

Belle Ringer you are missing my point.

Of course there are lots of people desirous of and in need of a great spiritual opportunity.

None of that means that it is bad or wrong to target young people for this scheme. There are a raft of comments that "Oh he's just trying to be trendy" or "UGH this is what happens when an evangelical becomes Archbish." There are lots of very good and important reasons to have this for 20-35 year olds, not least because they are less likely to be married with children and settled in careers so more able to take a year out. It's essentially a Christian gap year.

I would LOVE to do something like this, if only I'd been 22 when it started. I have responsibilities and a job and a husband who would never join this in a million years. Even the part-time program wouldn't work for me. Shall I moan "What about married women who work 60 hours a week, where is my scheme?"

Let's be joyful for the people who will have this fantastic opportunity. All I see here is complaining and grumbling and it's depressing.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Where are the 65 year olds you speak of going to come from 40 years from now, if the 25 year olds are ambivalent entirely about Christianity?
Many people take an interest in religion for the first time as they approach old age. When they were young, they felt immortal; now that they realize they're not, many of them show an interest in church.

Moo

What I've read is that people who 'show an interest in the church' later in life are more likely to do so if they were exposed to Christian teaching early on. IOW, we see people from previous generations returning to the church in the West, but this is because receiving an intentionally Christian upbringing was more likely in the past. It's less likely to happen in future, as fewer and fewer generations receive that early input.

Also, I understand that most conversions and/or decisions in favour of a personal investment Christianity occur among people in their teens and twenties. It's less likely in middle and old age (although not impossible, of course). This is an obvious reason for the churches to improve their quality of engagement with young people.

I agree that churches should offer more opportunities for older people to develop a contemplative and prayerful life on retreats, and so on. I've heard of a few courses and retreat centres that are open to all ages, and there might be some longer-term possibilities aimed at the 'career break' crowd. Mother Teresa's religious order in India accepted volunteers (maybe it still does), and presumably there are similar opportunities elsewhere.

[ 11. September 2014, 00:56: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
All I see here is complaining and grumbling and it's depressing.

Welcome to the UK, Seekingsister ...

[Big Grin]

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

It was definitely a CHN sister at Lambeth during ++Rowan's tenure - I know, because she's my aunt [Big Grin]

I'm surprised that this has got such a negative reaction on here, I think it's a brilliant idea and intend on applying. I'm under the impression that the age limit is because it's linked to the CoE's Call Waiting scheme, which is to support and encourage vocations in the under-30s. People will be praying for a year, definitely not trying to make career ladder connections! There are many communities who don't have age limits re alongsiders and postulants, though the vast majority of communities in the CoE are all-female ones so that's perhaps why Adeodatus couldn't find one?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Also, because I missed the edit window - it's very difficult to get info on vocations to the religious life in the CoE, and DDOs are often clueless. Hopefully this will raise the profile of religious communities and also the profile of the religious life as a vocation.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

* have just been to the ordination of a young man from my church, who was given just such an opportunity when he was in his 20s. It was life changing. And now this young man's ministry, over many years, will also benefit the church.

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