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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Moslems converting?
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Yesterday in church we had a stirring sermon about Christianity ("a relationship, not a religion") and Islam ("a religion").
The Sermoniser quoted some startling figures saying that thousands of Moslems were converting to Christianity every day, and that Moslem clerics were worried. He quoted Abu Qatada (?spelling) from an Al Jezeera broadcast.
Has anybody any idea at all (a) where these figures came from? and (b) could they possibly be true?
Further on in the sermon he maintained ISIS was on the run (?) and people would revolt against them. Hmm thinks I, hard to revolt against those who have the guns.
Most people who heard this sermon thought it was wonderful and that we needed more like it, and we should be ready to evangelise when the opportunity came. I would have liked a few more sources to convince me what he said was right.
Am I just being a cynical old woman??
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
No, you're not (being a cynical old woman). ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I support a charity which advocates for the rights of persecuted Christians and sends humanitarian aid. They do report conversions amongst Muslims in the Middle East but they are very careful in their language and don't fling out statistics. These things are very difficult to substantiate.
The evangelical community - of which I am a part - really needs to avoid triumphalism on this and other issues. Especially in reporting the implosion of IS. I mean, sheesh. How do we KNOW? ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
As for the Christianity being a 'relationship' and Islam being a 'religion', that's a whole other kettle of fish. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) I disagree with Islam theologically but these kinds of sweeping statements are not ... helpful, in both dialogue and evangelism. It leads to a lot of Christians patting themselves on the back, for one thing ... If Christians are to engage seriously with Muslims, they need to be aware that church history is far from squeaky-clean.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
He might be referring to this 2010 Al Jazeera interview with Sheikh Ahmad al Qataani but this page says the interview was in 2001, this page gives the text of the interview and a link I didn't check to it's text in Arabic, but doesn't give a date, but the earlier one sounds likely because other web sites listed by Google dated 2006 and 2008 refer to the interview.
Oooh, found a blog post (sorry, hosts I'll quit now) on the evangelist, Coptic priest Zakaria Botros web page. The blog post has a link to the priest's web site, which has a section about mentions of himself in media, which seems to support all the above links (except possibly the 2010 date of the interview) and add details of his method.
Isn't the "opportunity to evangelize" always now? What kind of opportunity are they looking for?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Right, so its Coptic Priest Zakaria Botros doing all the damage. Or was, at any rate.
Does that mean the 6 million conversions are to the Coptic form of Christianity? Not too sure my church would go along with that. Roman Catholicism seems dodgy enough to them, but Copts??
I still maintain the right to a certain amount of cynicism on this subject. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
No, you're not (being a cynical old woman).
I support a charity which advocates for the rights of persecuted Christians and sends humanitarian aid. They do report conversions amongst Muslims in the Middle East but they are very careful in their language and don't fling out statistics. These things are very difficult to substantiate. at church history is far from squeaky-clean.
I wonder if this is the Barnabas Fund - if so, it has been criticised many times for its islamophobia and distortion of information.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Has anybody any idea at all (a) where these figures came from? and (b) could they possibly be true?
I have heard before that Christianity is growing faster than Islam in black Africa, which includes actually converting Muslims, and that part of the violence we see is a response to that. I'm not totally sure about the source, it probably was Philip Jenkins' "Next Christendom" though.
There is also another much underreported fact, and that is that many Muslim countries are facing serious demographic changes. Basically, they went from really high birthrates to somewhat above replacement in a very short time (about thirty years), with the effect that there is a huge bulge of young people moving towards old age, causing first "youthquakes" and then imposing a drastic burden on weak societies in their old age. See here. The picture of Islam as rapidly growing religion hence may not hold true much longer.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Yesterday in church we had a stirring sermon about Christianity ("a relationship, not a religion") and Islam ("a religion").
Am I just being a cynical old woman??
Islam is all about relationship.
Your preacher is both biased and ignorant.
Islam is all about relationship. Islam is all about peace. Islam is all about submission. Islam is all about jihad.
All of these statements and more are true for some Muslims or other. Stop interpreting Islam for all Muslims and just accept that Islam is a very broad church.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
quote:
All of these statements and more are true for some Muslims or other. Stop interpreting Islam for all Muslims and just accept that Islam is a very broad church
Does that mean that in reality nothing meaningful can be said about Islam? (or Christianity, or Hinduism, etc ...)
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think you are a wise rather than a cynical woman.
The sermon would have rung all of my alarm bells too. No religion can truthfully be summed up in a few stirring soundbites. Every time we generalise and throw up against any group of people we are in danger of inciting hatred rather than love.
If God is drawing some from one religion to another, it is worthy of praise and thanksgiving that God's will is being done. It may as well be the other way around, where Christians convert to Islam, if it is by their willingness and God's calling. Would it be right for Muslims to gloat under those circumstances? Absolutely not. We can't and shouldn't try to limit God's scope to Christianity imv.
I would rather evangelism be aimed at those who don't know God at all than at those who may already be worshipping the one God within other religions.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
quote:
All of these statements and more are true for some Muslims or other. Stop interpreting Islam for all Muslims and just accept that Islam is a very broad church
Does that mean that in reality nothing meaningful can be said about Islam? (or Christianity, or Hinduism, etc ...)
Well not completely. But it doesn't do to pretend from the outside that one has special knowledge as to the true nature of
Islam when it has many varieties.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm with Laurelin on this one. It looks fairly obvious to me that Sheikh Ahmad Al Katani is an alarmist trying to provoke his own followers into being more committed to Islam, somewhat in the manner of Hal Lindsey.
Much though a Christian evangelist might wish he could make 6,000,000 converts a year, again, Daled Amos appeared to be a Jewish site expressing exactly the same sort of alarm, by spreading an inflationary story about this terrible Father Botros. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that he is making any such a claim.
If, on the other hand, anyone is arguing that a Christian priest, by birth and upbringing embedded in the Arab world should not have a website that tries to persuade Moselms to look at the Christian faith, and is open that he would like them to convert, I would hope that every Christian on earth would disagree with such an appalling proposition.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In a word, SeekingSister, the sermon was bollocks.
I don't care how inspirational it sounded, it was still bollocks. It's the very worst kind of sound-bite evangelical triumphalism.
Yes, there are Muslims becoming Christians in various parts of the world, but it's a two-way street ...
In a certain genre of revivalist literature and newsy media - much favoured by my mother-in-law - there are always spectacular accounts of thousands of conversions here there and everywhere ... often involving dreams and visions and spectacular stuff ...
Few of these stories are actually substantiated.
I think the most we can say is that there are certainly conversions from Islam to Christianity taking place ... but the same thing happens t'other way around.
I'm highly sceptical of a lot of these claims - it's like the completely bogus story that did the rounds a few years ago about thousands of Buddhists in Burma converting to Christianity because some Buddhist leader died, went to Hell and saw the Buddha suffering in eternal torment. Then, very conveniently, some Christians prayed for him, he came back to life and became some extraordinary evangelist leading thousands of his former religionists to Christ ... so much so that the authorities were trying to silence him ...
The story was a total fabrication and was challenged by reputable mission agencies and by indigenous Burmese Christians.
Yet it was still promulgated at popular charismatic shindigs like New Wine and Soul Survivor.
This kind of exaggeration happens in all Christian traditions - I could cite RC and Orthodox urban myths too.
It needs to be resisted wherever and whenever it appears. It does the cause of the Gospel no good whatsoever and masks the complexity of what is really going on.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Whoops ... I've done it again ... I meant Nicodemia not SeekingSister ...
I keep getting people's names mixed up!
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
quote:
All of these statements and more are true for some Muslims or other. Stop interpreting Islam for all Muslims and just accept that Islam is a very broad church
Does that mean that in reality nothing meaningful can be said about Islam? (or Christianity, or Hinduism, etc ...)
No (yes, no, no etc).
As a Christian I maintain that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, was crucified under Pontius Pilot and was resurrected on the third day.
Everything else is just commentary.
Sorry, but if other religions don't buy into that then I don't see the need to accept them as valid beyond what is mandated by law.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is there a competition, notwithstanding various stirringly named military operations and supportable worthy versus various nefarious cut-your-head-off and blow-you-up organizations and states?
If so, drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life... I've got the will Lord, if you've got the toe.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
("a relationship, not a religion")
This tagline needs to be dropped yesterday. It's not only dumb, it's untrue.
Any religion presumes a relationship between the worshipper and the worshipped. That should be obvious. Positioning Christianity as a relationship rather than a religion is just a cheap way of trying to make the faith seem unique. Uniqueness is a neutral value; we should be more concerned with truth.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... If so, drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life... I've got the will Lord, if you've got the toe.
I'm glad to be able to say I've never encountered that work before. Does it have a tune?
From a different page on the same site.
quote:
"Bare had many failed attempts to sell his songs in the 1950s."
Can't imagine why.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... If so, drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life... I've got the will Lord, if you've got the toe.
I'm glad to be able to say I've never encountered that work before. Does it have a tune?
Oh, but of course!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Almost all the first world ex-Muslims I come across are atheists. Their attitude to Christianity mostly seems to be 'why replace one stupid primitive Middle Eastern cult with another one which is slightly different?'
It seems that while Islam (in the form actually experienced by these ex-Muslims) has built-in defences against Christianity, it has for the most part missed the refining by fire that Christian theology went through in the 19th and 20th centuries with the overwhelming evidence for an old earth and evolution, form criticism and higher criticism of holy texts, etc etc. When these now ex-Muslims went looking in Islamic theology for answers to these sorts of questions they couldn't find anything satisfactory.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, but of course!
Thank you. That's as dire as I expected it to be.
Odd, though, that a Country and Western singer should sing a song with a Rugby metaphor.
[ 09. September 2014, 07:51: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, but of course!
Thank you. That's as dire as I expected it to be.
Odd, though, that a Country and Western singer should sing a song with a Rugby metaphor.
It isn't Rugby. I'll give you a clue... it starts with an "A" and ends in "merican Football"!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
David Pawson used to propagate this delusion. Probably still does at 84.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, but of course!
Thank you. That's as dire as I expected it to be.
Odd, though, that a Country and Western singer should sing a song with a Rugby metaphor.
It isn't Rugby. I'll give you a clue... it starts with an "A" and ends in "merican Football"!
Drop Kicks rarely happen in American Football these days. One is attempted every decade or so in the NFL or NCAA Division I FBS. Doug Flutie was the last player to successfully execute a drop kick in the NFL and that happened in 1998.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I have heard before that Christianity is growing faster than Islam in black Africa, which includes actually converting Muslims, and that part of the violence we see is a response to that. I'm not totally sure about the source, it probably was Philip Jenkins' "Next Christendom" though.
I know English isn't your first language so giving you a pass on "black Africa." Whenever I'm in Germany I laugh at how R&B music is called "Schwarze Musik" with no irony.
I have family in West Africa and it's not uncommon for Muslims to convert to Christianity. You quite often find out someone named Faruq or Fatima is a Christian pastor, for example. However this is most common in the areas where Islam and Christianity arrived at around the same time and 200 years ago they were practicing traditional religions.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Along with lots of other delusions ...
Who is David Pawson and why does he care so much about the meaning of Country and Western lyrics?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Funnily enough, the only mention I've ever had of the subject in charevo circles was a missionary who told us that we weren't devout enough because we couldn't convert muslims who could see that we were less serious out our faith than they were.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...Father Botros. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that he is making any such a claim.
If, on the other hand, anyone is arguing that a Christian priest, by birth and upbringing embedded in the Arab world should not have a website that tries to persuade Moselms to look at the Christian faith, and is open that he would like them to convert, I would hope that every Christian on earth would disagree with such an appalling proposition.
Father Butros doesn't appear to be making any claims at all about numbers converted by his radio program; his site links to stories others have written about him, without comment from him.
The stories I read say most of the conversions are quiet, which is what I would expect in places where being public about it means ostracism or death.
It means no one knows how many are converting away from Islam to nothing or to folk religions or to some form of Christianity (probably generic, given lack of church structure to shape those converting quietly, secretly). Maybe many, maybe few.
I do recall hearing over the years various vague comments about millions converting, no specific verifiable place, which would be met with cheers; reminds me now of cheering on your football team (any kind of football) without the sweat and mud of being on the team doing the work to win.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Yesterday in church we had a stirring sermon about Christianity ("a relationship, not a religion") and Islam ("a religion").
Am I just being a cynical old woman??
Islam is all about relationship.
Your preacher is both biased and ignorant.
Islam is all about relationship. Islam is all about peace. Islam is all about submission. Islam is all about jihad.
All of these statements and more are true for some Muslims or other. Stop interpreting Islam for all Muslims and just accept that Islam is a very broad church.
Christianity is also a broad church.
The preacher, therefore, was wrong to stereotype.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Almost all the first world ex-Muslims I come across are atheists. Their attitude to Christianity mostly seems to be 'why replace one stupid primitive Middle Eastern cult with another one which is slightly different?'
It seems that while Islam (in the form actually experienced by these ex-Muslims) has built-in defences against Christianity, it has for the most part missed the refining by fire that Christian theology went through in the 19th and 20th centuries with the overwhelming evidence for an old earth and evolution, form criticism and higher criticism of holy texts, etc etc. When these now ex-Muslims went looking in Islamic theology for answers to these sorts of questions they couldn't find anything satisfactory.
Learnedly rubbished by Fr Hunwicke in a recent talk:
http://gloria.tv/media/fQYG6kYYm3u
[fixed rubbished code]
[ 09. September 2014, 18:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
seekingsister: quote:
I know English isn't your first language so giving you a pass on "black Africa."
...and just for future reference, most native English speakers would say sub-Saharan Africa...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Muslims are having their consciousnesses expanded all the time, just like Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists. I'm convinced that all roads lead to Jesus, in the next life if not in this, and that there are many Muslims in particular moving toward becoming Muslim Christians just as many Jews moved to become the Jewish first Christians. There will be Hindu Christians and Sikh Christians, Buddhist and Atheist Christians. People do not need to lose their identities. There were pagan Christians after all. There are. Christianity was always a broad church, far broader than the big brands nowadays would admit. There is a need to come out of Babylon, sure. IN Christianity included. But abandoning ones entire culture is not in Jesus' example.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Martin! Do I detect a hint of Universalism creeping in to your theology?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I've always been all but universalist deano. Always. The but being Love cannot completely overrule a person's right to be evil in the final analysis. Cannot change them against their reprobate will. If I can go through Judgement Day and see Jesus save Sodom and Gomorrah and talk Hitler and Stalin and perhaps even Satan down and whole and loving and say, 'No thanks mate, my will be done.' then that's that. But yeah, with that proviso, of course I'm universalist.
Jesus saves.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The but being Love cannot completely overrule a person's right to be evil in the final analysis. Cannot change them against their reprobate will. If I can go through Judgement Day and see Jesus save Sodom and Gomorrah and talk Hitler and Stalin and perhaps even Satan down and whole and loving and say, 'No thanks mate, my will be done.' then that's that.
I would love to be a universalist but I share the same "but."
I think the horrible Fundamentalist tracts which show people after death begging Christ for a mercy He then denies them are wrong. I believe the door to Hell is locked on the inside, and that no one who truly wants to be freed and healed and loved will be excluded. (But again, there's the whole reprobate will.) The Great Divorce has a good image of some of these notions, I believe.
I do believe that all who are saved are saved through Christ, whether they have consciously known Him in this life or not. Some may, I pray and trust, be like Emeth in The Last Battle. (But some may say "The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs.")
[ 10. September 2014, 03:17: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I was trying to say:
I believe the door to Hell is locked on the inside, and that no one who truly wants to be freed and healed and loved will be abandoned.
There.
[ 10. September 2014, 03:20: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Offtopic, but out of interest do you try to ground this view of judgment and eschatalogical punishment in scripture?
Or is it, for example, what you consider a reasonable conclusion from the nature of sin and love and the scriptural passages that old time fundies and universalists used to argue about aren't really relevant?
I'm not saying you should, or that your views are wrong. Just interested because other people have put these views to me before and also mentioned CS Lewis/the Great Divorce/Emeth in the Last Battle.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And deano, there are soldier Christians after all.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Offtopic, but out of interest do you try to ground this [universalist or near universalist] view of judgment and eschatalogical punishment in scripture?
Yes.
quote:
Or is it, for example, what you consider a reasonable conclusion from the nature of sin and love
Yes. quote:
and the scriptural passages that old time fundies and universalists used to argue about aren't really relevant?
Pulled out of context and/or distorted in meaning to support a pre-existing belief.
BTW, the first two questions are not either/or but both. The overall message of the nature of sin and of love is part of the context within which every passage must be read. Context is not merely what the neighboring few words seem to say taken apart from the whole paragraph or whole letter/book or whole collection.
Check out some of the threads on hell, there's also a fairly recent one that discussed some but not all of this.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I believe the door to Hell is locked on the inside, and that no one who truly wants to be freed and healed and loved will be excluded.
"Truly" operates as weasel word in that sentence, which is kind of ironic. The only way this would work in practice is if heaven was less attractive than hell to the individual. And that doesn't work unless to be freed, healed, loved, and whatever other goods heaven offers, is somehow unattractive, and to be captured, sick and hated, and whatever other evils hell imposes, is somehow attractive. There is no way to make that work unless one turns both heaven and hell into some version of this world - for in this world goods and evils are mixed and/or unclear, leading to the reign of arbitrary taste (is say New York heaven or hell? depends on whom you ask).
So the "solution" offered here is not in fact some better version of the traditional Christian doctrine of heaven and hell. It is simply a completely different teaching, that of reincarnation into another world much like this one. Just attaching traditional labels to different places in this new worldly world does not change that, just as renaming New York "Hell" would not change anything except eliciting some chuckles.
In the afterlife we will no longer see through a glass darkly. We will be in no more doubt about what place is preferable than Dives and Lazarus. In none of the imagery Christ uses about hell are the tormented dubious about their torment. The idea that we could somehow prefer staying in hell rather than going to heaven is simply not compatible with orthodox Christian teaching (and, I note, not the same as the "river of fire" idea).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is no forgiveness beyond the grave then.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The only way this would work in practice is if heaven was less attractive than hell to the individual. And that doesn't work unless to be freed, healed, loved, and whatever other goods heaven offers, is somehow unattractive
Did you really never do any of the variants of "I want to be miserable, it proves I was right thing?"
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There is no forgiveness beyond the grave then.
Indeed. Death is the great "rien ne va plus" (French roulette idiom, "nothing goes any further", i.e., all bets now end), and the afterlife is decidedly not like this life. To say anything else is to acutely endanger souls.
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Did you really never do any of the variants of "I want to be miserable, it proves I was right thing?"
That's more thinking in terms of this world. You cannot sulk in hell. Sulking is an option for those who can trade some comforts and joys for the delicious feeling of having been wronged. But neither is there a fallback position of lesser comforts in hell, nor is anybody there in any doubts about the justice of the punishment.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Offtopic, but out of interest do you try to ground this [universalist or near universalist] view of judgment and eschatalogical punishment in scripture?
Yes.
I wouldn't personally have described this view as "universalist or near universalist"
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
IngoB - NOTHING I can say can endanger any one, no matter how postmodern.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Isn't "near universalist" a bit like "a little bit pregnant"?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No it's like being pregnant. With the risk of miscarriage. ALL will be fertilized.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No it's like being pregnant. With the risk of miscarriage. ALL will be fertilized.
The tax-gatherers and the outcasts were all drawing near to Jesus to listen to him; but the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law found fault.
“This man always welcomes outcasts, and takes meals with them!” they complained.
So Jesus told them this parable — “Who among you who has a hundred sheep, and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine out in the open country, and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And, after a little bit, when he realises the sheep doesn't want to be found, he leaves it out in the open country where the wolves are, and goes home; and, on reaching home, he calls his friends and his neighbors together, and says ‘Come and rejoice with me, for although my lost sheep doesn't want to be found I still have 99 others!.’”
[ 12. September 2014, 01:15: Message edited by: Demas ]
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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