UBB.classicTM 6.5.0
quote:What a superb phrase! I like the idea of church as a place where they look at you properly. Evangelism as seeing people properly. Healing as being seen.
The thing that stands out most in my memory is that the people there looked at her properly.
quote:I can't think of any words like "slut" or "whore" that has the power to make a guy feel so low and tainted. Looking at John 8 when they brought the woman caught in adultery, but not the guy, it seems we're talking about a thought process that has been going on for thousands of years.
Originally posted by Snags:
As the concept of virginity applies to both sexes, no, it isn't sexist.
That people make a bigger (or different) deal of it for women than men, that's sexist.
quote:When I went home for the summer, I met a guy at church who had moved down from New York. We became good friends and he even decided to go to college. He met the girl at the church near college and they eventually were married. He adopted her daughter as his own. They live in New York and are having a great life together.
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:What a superb phrase! I like the idea of church as a place where they look at you properly. Evangelism as seeing people properly. Healing as being seen.
The thing that stands out most in my memory is that the people there looked at her properly.
quote:It's always tough to guess the preferences of someone who is purely hypothetical (e.g. a son's future wife). Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it).
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm talking to my son about virginity. His, I mean, not his future wife's. Not because I have some crackpot idea about contamination or whatever, but because I do think it's preferable at marriage for both genders over sleeping around. Besides the obvious pregnancy and disease concerns, I think it would be easier on my daughter-in-law to know that her husband was not comparing her sexually to any previous partners (yes, yes, we should all be self-confident and all that, but it doesn't always work that way, especially in this really vulnerable part of life). And if he is able to control his sexual desires prior to marriage, she may feel a bit easier trusting him to be faithful during marriage.
quote:The upshot seems to be that support for not having sex is plentiful before marriage, but advice on having good sex after marriage seems to be thin on the ground in these purity culture situations. This seems to include difficulties in having frank sexual discussions with their wives.
These men are also taught to think of sex outside of marriage as animalistic and foul, but sacred within a marriage, according to a new study presented Aug. 17, here at the 109th American Sociological Association meeting.
As a result, male virginity pledgers can be somewhat confused and lost when it comes to sex after marriage, said study researcher Sarah Diefendorf, a sociology doctoral candidate at the University of Washington in Seattle.
"They spend the first 20-something years of their lives being told that sex is wrong," Diefendorf told Live Science. "They're expected to make this transition from the beastly to the sacred, but they don't really have the tools to be able to do that effectively."
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Let's remember, please, that there is a big difference between "purity culture" and the simple, historic advocation of chastity.
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quote:1000 times Amen!
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Indeed, I was pleased to learn that the very same things that contribute to making one a good partner outside the bedroom-- things like generosity, kindness, patience, a sense of humor and curiosity, playfulness-- all translate quite nicely into good qualities in the bedroom.
quote:Yes.
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think the difference in the way virginity has been regarded in men and women lies in the need for men to be sure they were nurturing their own children - and it was once believed that once one man had lain with a woman, that could "contaminate" future pregnancies. By analogy with waht was believed about animals which bred with inferior stock, such as bitches which got out when on heat. All subsequent litters would be regarded as not purebred. Historically.
quote:We're not in purity culture. We're Lutherans, and this is bog-standard chastity.
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's always tough to guess the preferences of someone who is purely hypothetical (e.g. a son's future wife). Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it)....
There's an interesting new study* that indicates stressing purity to young men can have some negative repercussions....
The upshot seems to be that support for not having sex is plentiful before marriage, but advice on having good sex after marriage seems to be thin on the ground in these purity culture situations. This seems to include difficulties in having frank sexual discussions with their wives....
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. Not.Having.That.Problem.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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quote:Everyone knows that if a man isn't married the first time he has sex he can instinctively find a clitoris without trying. It's only on getting married that men lose their instinctive knowledge.
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it).
quote:It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
quote:That's more like it! All things are intellectual constructs (either individual or social). That's how cognition works. The question is surely more the utility or value of that construct.
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It has an =experiential= reality. As in there is a first time you ate lychee, or rode a roller coaster, or went water-skiing. What is silly is the moral, and certainly monetary, value put upon it. Are you a better person if you are a virgin? Are you more marriageable, can your father charge a higher bride-price for you?
quote:That's one of the outgrowths of purity culture (whether called that or not). Women's morality is wholly and entirely sexual. In other words, whether a woman is "good" or not is entirely determined by how closely she adheres to whatever the local code of sexual morality happens to be. If a woman has unapproved sex, she's a "bad woman" regardless of anything else she does. Conversely, any woman whose only sex is within the approved boundaries is "good", even if she steals from orphans and kicks puppies in her spare time (for example).
Originally posted by Twilight:
The very idea that a woman who has never had sex, however, selfish, cruel or dishonest she may be, is superior to one who has experienced sex is just ridiculous. I hate the very word, virgin.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:Everyone knows that if a man isn't married the first time he has sex he can instinctively find a clitoris without trying. It's only on getting married that men lose their instinctive knowledge.
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it).
quote:But I like extra virgin olive oil.
Originally posted by Twilight:
I hate the very word, virgin.
quote:Maybe where you're from. Where I'm from a woman who has "unapproved" sex may be called a lot of things, but a "bad woman" isn't generally one of them. That comes from some culture that defines human beings solely in terms of their sexual status and rates men as higher status if they've had sex with a lot of women, even if that sex was once considered licit within the Christian tradition (polygamy).
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's one of the outgrowths of purity culture (whether called that or not). Women's morality is wholly and entirely sexual. In other words, whether a woman is "good" or not is entirely determined by how closely she adheres to whatever the local code of sexual morality happens to be. If a woman has unapproved sex, she's a "bad woman" regardless of anything else she does. Conversely, any woman whose only sex is within the approved boundaries is "good", even if she steals from orphans and kicks puppies in her spare time (for example).
quote:Exactly.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing. You don't 'lose' anything the first time you have sex, and there's no physical difference between someone who hasn't had sex and someone who has (as many people know now, the hymen is a membrane that not all women are even born with, and those who do can have it stretched by all sorts of things, such as tampons).
quote:Yes, but shouldn't they stake out their own tent before they start bringing in mates? Isn't that a step in the passage to adulthood, with all its responsibilities and perks? Are you prepared to foot the bill for the crib and all surrounding baby costs, too?
I bought my boys double beds for their rooms when they turned 18. It was how they treated their partners which mattered to me, not whether or not they had sex with them.
quote:This is worth highlighting.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing. You don't 'lose' anything the first time you have sex, and there's no physical difference between someone who hasn't had sex and someone who has (as many people know now, the hymen is a membrane that not all women are even born with, and those who do can have it stretched by all sorts of things, such as tampons).
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
quote:Well that depends on what you profess to live by, and what you may have promised. You can lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, and this should not simply be dismissed.
There is nothing lost in having good, consensual, uncomplicated (as in no other partner is being cheated on) sex.
quote:They both have their own tents now.
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yes, but shouldn't they stake out their own tent before they start bringing in mates? Isn't that a step in the passage to adulthood, with all its responsibilities and perks? Are you prepared to foot the bill for the crib and all surrounding baby costs, too?
quote:But why is that a significant thing that needs its own word? Do we have special words for people who haven't eaten chocolate, or people who haven't seen Star Wars?
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
quote:You could lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, but you'd be in error. It's sex for pity's sake, not genocide.
Originally posted by anteater:
quote:Well that depends on what you profess to live by, and what you may have promised. You can lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, and this should not simply be dismissed.
There is nothing lost in having good, consensual, uncomplicated (as in no other partner is being cheated on) sex.
quote:Um since when did having sex = having babies? Aside from anything else, 'partners' doesn't indicate anything about the gender of the other person.
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:Yes, but shouldn't they stake out their own tent before they start bringing in mates? Isn't that a step in the passage to adulthood, with all its responsibilities and perks? Are you prepared to foot the bill for the crib and all surrounding baby costs, too?
I bought my boys double beds for their rooms when they turned 18. It was how they treated their partners which mattered to me, not whether or not they had sex with them.
quote:Erm, chocolate virgins and Star Wars virgins...?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:But why is that a significant thing that needs its own word? Do we have special words for people who haven't eaten chocolate, or people who haven't seen Star Wars?
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
quote:Because among those couples using condoms as their primary method of contraception, approximately 14 percent will experience an unintended pregnancy during the first year.
Originally posted by Boogie:
But why should there be any baby costs in thse days of simple and effective contraception?
quote:By effective contraception I mean good communication and both partners taking effective precautions. It's when those conversations are
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:Because among those couples using condoms as their primary method of contraception, approximately 14 percent will experience an unintended pregnancy during the first year.
Originally posted by Boogie:
But why should there be any baby costs in thse days of simple and effective contraception?
I would feel safer if it was my daughter whom I had told to be sure and use contraception. She would have some relatively fool proof options. Boys, not so much, plus your sons may not even know about their offspring until after most of the decisions have been made.
quote:No, I meant unique words of their own. Virginity being a thing suggests that a person is inherently changed by having sex. That's not true, therefore the whole concept of virginity is bogus.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:Erm, chocolate virgins and Star Wars virgins...?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:But why is that a significant thing that needs its own word? Do we have special words for people who haven't eaten chocolate, or people who haven't seen Star Wars?
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
quote:I disagree. Virginity is just a label for whether a person has had (pentrative) sex or not. As such, it has its uses. Some people tie the wrong consequences to this, but you can hardly blame that on the word.
Jade Constable: Virginity being a thing suggests that a person is inherently changed by having sex.
quote:If I had a daughter I would adopt the same line as I have with my sons: that is, to say that in this day and age there really are no 'accidents' but that, in any case, contraception is for both parties and if you don't feel able to either discuss or take responsibility for contraception then you aren't ready for an adult sexual relationship.
I would feel safer if it was my daughter whom I had told to be sure and use contraception. She would have some relatively fool proof options. Boys, not so much, plus your sons may not even know about their offspring until after most of the decisions have been made.
quote:Okay. So I had a lot of sexual experiences that didn't involve penetrative sex. Was I a virgin?
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I disagree. Virginity is just a label for whether a person has had (pentrative) sex or not. As such, it has its uses. Some people tie the wrong consequences to this, but you can hardly blame that on the word.
Jade Constable: Virginity being a thing suggests that a person is inherently changed by having sex.
quote:That's up to you to decide. It's just a word.
Garasu: Okay. So I had a lot of sexual experiences that didn't involve penetrative sex. Was I a virgin?
quote:Whatever you want Garasu, whatever you want.
Garasu: In that case, surely it involves something more than whether or not penetrative sex was inolved? If I decide that he didn't really penetrate me, I presumably haven't experienced penetrative sex?
quote:I totally agree with you about that and I think parents who tell their teens simply not to have sex are living in a fools paradise, but I think parents who think they only need to tell their kids to use birth control and to talk openly with their partner, and all will be well, are living in a bit of a fools paradise as well.
Originally posted by Boogie:
Openness about sex helps there to be less unwanted pregnancy, not more. Head in the sand attitudes never work in my book.
quote:You shouldn't take the figures for married and unmarried parents at birth as any kind of indication either of sexual activity or of reliability of birth control method/use.
In the 1940's in the U.S. unmarried births were about 3%. Since then with all the advances in birth control, unmarried births have soared to over 40% for first births. Some of these births were wanted but many of them were not and that doesn't reflect all the abortions. I'm just saying, birth control is highly over rated.
quote:Or women can take longer-term contraception like the implant or the injection.
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:I totally agree with you about that and I think parents who tell their teens simply not to have sex are living in a fools paradise, but I think parents who think they only need to tell their kids to use birth control and to talk openly with their partner, and all will be well, are living in a bit of a fools paradise as well.
Originally posted by Boogie:
Openness about sex helps there to be less unwanted pregnancy, not more. Head in the sand attitudes never work in my book.
Men sometimes get a little drunk and fumble their condoms, women sometimes forget to take their pill.
In the 1940's in the U.S. unmarried births were about 3%. Since then with all the advances in birth control, unmarried births have soared to over 40% for first births. Some of these births were wanted but many of them were not and that doesn't reflect all the abortions. I'm just saying, birth control is highly over rated.
quote:I don't know how valid the comparison is, but assuming your point, I would not agree that "just sex" criteria are any more narrow than just war criteria. Indeed, given that a pretty hefty percentage of the hetero population (and, God willing, soon the GLBT population as well) manages to fall within the "just sex criteria" it would seem to be way more generous than just war, which would disallow almost every modern or ancient war (rightfully so IMHO, but that's another thread).
Originally posted by no prophet:
As I continue to think about this, it is wondrous that we have a "just war" doctrine, that justifies war in some circumstances, but our "just sex" doctrine would suggest that there is never "just sex" and certainly only narrow justification for sex in only very specific circumstances, and more restrictive the more traditional-cum-sexist you are. How many of us would rather be fucking than fighting?
quote:Actually it frequently does make her damaged for subsequent consensual encounters (and it doesn't have to be her first full penetrative sexual experience). Not because her purity is ruined or anything like that but because subsequent sexual encounters can bring up memories of the assault and the accompanying feelings. It's not necessarily permanent damage, but it's frequently true.
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sure, for a woman to have her first full penetrative sexual experience one of violence and force is grotesque, but it doesn't make her 'damaged' for her next and subsequent consensual encounters, it means she is a survivor of brutal assault which is something that should be celebrated.
quote:This.
Originally posted by L'organist:
Above all, virginity and its preservation was yet another means of controlling girls and women.
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quote:It does not necessarily follow that a child born to an unmarried mother will be raised in a home without a father, at least not in the UK. Increasing numbers of couples are choosing not to get married but still live together as a couple and bring up their children together.
Originally posted by Twilight:
There are many contributing factors to the change in unmarried birth rates, but the situation remains that, these days, a whole lot of children are being raised today without fathers in the home (be they biological or not) and there's quite a bit of evidence that it's having a negative effect on the lives of those children.
quote:Well that's your view. You can dismiss the whole of Christian tradition in the area of sexual ethics, or you can respect it. I agree, BTW, that it's not as great a sin as genocide, which I did find rather a pointless comment. Presumably there are lots of things less than genocide that you would consider wrong.
You could lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, but you'd be in error. It's sex for pity's sake, not genocide.
quote:Some research evidence suggests there may be something lost in pre-marital sex.
Originally posted by anteater:
quote:Well that depends on what you profess to live by, and what you may have promised. You can lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, and this should not simply be dismissed.
There is nothing lost in having good, consensual, uncomplicated (as in no other partner is being cheated on) sex.
quote:Personally I'm of the opinion some pre-marital sex is not the end of the world but promiscuity for both men and women before marriage is a bad idea.
1. Have fewer sexual partners before marriage
The received wisdom amongst the younger generations is that experience of different relationships before marriage doesn’t do you any harm.
However, this new research finds otherwise.
The average number of sexual partner people reported having before marriage was five.
But 23% of people had slept with just one person and it was these people who tended to have the highest quality marriages.
For women, the more men they had slept with before saying “I do”, the less happy they were with their marriages.
As one of the study’s authors, Dr. Galena Rhoades, put it:
“In most areas, more experience is better. You’re a better job candidate with more experience, not less.
When it comes to relationship experience, though, we found that having more experience before getting married was associated with lower marital quality.”
In the report they write:
“More experience may increase one’s awareness of alternative partners.
A strong sense of alternatives is believed to make it harder to maintain commitment to, and satisfaction with, what one already has.”
Apparently, what happens in Vegas does not stay in Vegas.
quote:Anyone that thinks adultery doesn't matter is a moron.
Originally posted by anteater:
JC:quote:Well that's your view. You can dismiss the whole of Christian tradition in the area of sexual ethics, or you can respect it. I agree, BTW, that it's not as great a sin as genocide, which I did find rather a pointless comment. Presumably there are lots of things less than genocide that you would consider wrong.
You could lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, but you'd be in error. It's sex for pity's sake, not genocide.
It is not unreasonable to take others' feelings into account. My wife would be upset if I had sex with another, and she became aware of it.
So if a person believes that Christ does want sex to be controlled and within a certain ethical framework, going against that could be harmful. "What is not of faith is sin" Paul says in the context, more or less, that a vegetarian is socially pressured into eating meat.
It depends on how far you want to do things pleasing to Christ, and what you think those things are. There are many who have strong beliefs in this area who would lose something if they become sexually active outside of marriage.
Of course it's not THAT great, certainly no sort of disaster. But not nothing IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I'm of the opinion some pre-marital sex is not the end of the world but promiscuity for both men and women before marriage is a bad idea.
quote:These are the views that have some currency, with the former being more popular than the second.
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't see how that can't have emotional and spiritual ramifications.
quote:You see no middle ground between these two extremes, where the pre married and unmarried have good relationships a small part of which are good orgasms - which are btw healthy and beneficial?
Originally posted by no prophet:
The former is a product of social and economic realities that would require people to remain sex-free often into their 30s. Which is rather different that the brief control of sexual urges until marriage in the late teens or early 20s.
The second point, about spiritual ramifications, is typically ignored and cheapened today. The important thing is to have a good quality orgasm and ensure you really feel you got it right. And if you cannot, in our modern world, there's probably an app for that.
quote:It makes no difference if I personally see nuances between the usually human this-or-that type of perception. The perception and condemnation of unmarried serial monogamy by churchy people is one thing I see very much of. The orgasm side, being, I suppose, sinful pleasure is not usually much discussed.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:You see no middle ground between these two extremes, where the pre married and unmarried have good relationships a small part of which are good orgasms - which are btw healthy and beneficial?
Originally posted by no prophet:
The former is a product of social and economic realities that would require people to remain sex-free often into their 30s. Which is rather different that the brief control of sexual urges until marriage in the late teens or early 20s.
The second point, about spiritual ramifications, is typically ignored and cheapened today. The important thing is to have a good quality orgasm and ensure you really feel you got it right. And if you cannot, in our modern world, there's probably an app for that.
quote:Both extremes can end a marriage . Some may say marriages where sex becomes the burning issue are in trouble anyway , (probably for other reasons).
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think it was CS Lewis who said we can underestimate and overestimate sexual issues.
quote:If sex causes burning, you may have a urinary tract infection and should see your gynecologist.
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:Both extremes can end a marriage . Some may say marriages where sex becomes the burning issue are in trouble anyway , (probably for other reasons).
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think it was CS Lewis who said we can underestimate and overestimate sexual issues.