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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Stranger danger
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I thought of posting this in Hell, because it makes me angry, but I'm posting it here because I want a serious discussion.
About ten days ago a young woman disappeared in Charlottesville, Virginia. She had dinner with a female friend in a restaurant, then attended two parties. She left the second party alone and wandered around. She was caught on various surveillance cameras; a map showing the various sightings in chronological order makes it clear she was wandering aimlessly. Many people who saw her had the impression that she was drunk.
She left the party at 12:15; she talked and texted to friends on her cell phone until 1:30, when the battery apparently died. In that last call she said she thought she was lost. A surveillance camera showed a man walking past her going in the opposite direction; then he turned and began following her. Later a surveillance camera in a bar showed her with the man; he was drinking alcohol. (The police showed the man's picture to her friends, and they all said they had never seen him before.)
No one knows what happened after that, but police believe she got in his car and was driven away. I strongly suspect that she is dead.
She had a right to wander around, and no one had the right to do anything to her. However, it's no good having She had a perfect right to be where she was carved on your tombstone.
I know that women are more frequently attacked by someone they know, but I am still very disturbed that she did not realize that what she was doing was unsafe. I think this type of attack is much more preventable than attack by an acquaintance or relative. This woman should have been given information on how to keep herself safe.
I say she should have been given information, not advice or rules. She was eighteen. By the time most women are twenty-five they know how to avoid this kind of trouble, but it's something that has to be learned. Someone should have helped her learn it.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This was not a girl from a rural community. She was from Fairfax VA, one of the most populous counties in the US (it is a suburb of Washington DC). She had probably as much exposure to life and 'the street' as any person of her age who does not reside in a major metropolis.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I know that women are more frequently attacked by someone they know, but I am still very disturbed that she did not realize that what she was doing was unsafe. I think this type of attack is much more preventable than attack by an acquaintance or relative. This woman should have been given information on how to keep herself safe.
I say she should have been given information, not advice or rules. She was eighteen. By the time most women are twenty-five they know how to avoid this kind of trouble, but it's something that has to be learned. Someone should have helped her learn it.
You seem to be assuming quite a lot. Your main reason for concluding that the woman in question had never been told that strangers sometimes attack lone women, particularly drunk lone women, is that she was drinking and wasn't with friends. Possibly in much the same way people drive despite knowing motor vehicle fatality statistics or smoke knowing the risk of cancer. It sounds a lot like you think there should be "rules" despite your protestations to the contrary, since your main point is that this young woman apparently violated them.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Well, this is a new twist on victim blaming. This victim escapes blame on the basis of speculation that she was ignorant of "the rules for women", but now it's society's fault for not teaching and enforcing "the rules for women". So women who are assaulted are either reckless or ignorant, still either Madonnas or whores.
Does society have any rules for men? How about "don't assault women"? ISTM men are the ones who need educating. If that poor woman has been hurt or killed, the person who did it is responsible. That's the person to blame. That's the person that needs to be taught the rules of society.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Ah, yes, idealism.
Because we can teach everyone in America that the rules some people need to use to survive are not the same social rules that rich white women apply when choosing who to associate with.
Good luck with that.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sometimes, there is a very thin line between victim blaming and telling people to be more careful. The one to blame is always the perpetrator, there's no doubt about that. But I do believe that sometimes we have a duty to tell people to be more careful.
I sometimes accompany groups of young people who come from the Netherlands to Brazil for a church exchange visit. Whenever this happens, I try to talk with them and their families first, and among the subjects are some safety rules, and whether they agree to follow them.
Does this put the blame on them if they do happen to break these rules and become the victim of violence? No of course not, the blame is on the perpetrator. But unfortunately, I have to make these safety precautions clear to them sometimes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
This woman should have been given information on how to keep herself safe.
How do you know no one ever did this? Do you honestly think her parents never told her to get into a car with someone she didn't know? Isn't it just possible that her parents taught her from an early age that this is dangerous and that she made a poor choice anyway?
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Does society have any rules for men? How about "don't assault women"? ISTM men are the ones who need educating. If that poor woman has been hurt or killed, the person who did it is responsible. That's the person to blame. That's the person that needs to be taught the rules of society.
All true. And I think this could take care of a lot of the crap that takes place on and around college campuses. But it is not going to do a thing about the predatory sociopaths who don't care about the rules of society.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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marsupial.
Shipmate
# 12458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Does society have any rules for men? How about "don't assault women"? ISTM men are the ones who need educating. If that poor woman has been hurt or killed, the person who did it is responsible. That's the person to blame. That's the person that needs to be taught the rules of society.
Surely this is a bit surreal. The problem isn't with the vast majority of men (people for that matter) who have fully internalized society's norms about assault, rape, and murder. It's a matter of minimizing the risk of encountering the worst case scenario of the small minority who haven't.
(X-post with ruthw.)
[ 24. September 2014, 03:19: Message edited by: marsupial. ]
Posts: 653 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2007
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marsupial.
Shipmate
# 12458
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Posted
Sorry to double-post but RuthW put this much better than I did: by all means educate and make society's expectations clear, but the random violent sociopath who is everyone's worst case scenario is not going to be solved by education.
Posts: 653 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2007
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
You do remember that young "rich white woman" from Alabama who disappeared on a vacation trip to Aruba and is presumed to have been murdered by a nasty sociopath who has since been convicted of another murder in a different country. As far as I remember, she'd been out drinking with strangers--in other words, taking the kind of risks discussed in this thread. And I am not blaming her, I am just pointing out that risky behavior has nothing to do with one's ethnicity or socioeconomic status. It may have something to do with level of maturity...
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I was around 8 years old when I heard repeated broadacasts on the (then) radio asking if anyone had any idea of "the whereabouts of A...D...D...". She was 18 and I remember her name to this day (50 years later).
That is when I realised that women could just disappear off the face of the earth leaving not a trace. Just like that [clicks fingers]
Nothing has changed.
Nothing will change.
Nothing will ever help.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
I'm sure this woman did know the dangers, but lots of young people have hook ups and casual sex with strangers and never get murdered. So being young she might have felt it wouldn't happen to her. And she may have often gone off with strangers and so may her friends and as nothing bad had happened before she might not have expected it to.
Last year my longer term housemate and I asked our other housemate to leave at the end of the lease because she was regularly bringing different men home. She insisted they were all her 'friends' so perfectly safe. However we don't have locks on our bedroom doors and whether they were friends or strangers, felt unsafe (uncomfortable hearing their loud shenanigans too). However she just thought we were weird because in her social circles her behaviour was perfectly normal. The guys even wandered around the house in their underwear in front of us without seeing why we might be uncomfortable.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I say she should have been given information, not advice or rules. She was eighteen. By the time most women are twenty-five they know how to avoid this kind of trouble, but it's something that has to be learned. Someone should have helped her learn it.
Many people may have helped her learn it and she ignored them.
Just like the large percentage of young people who drive recklessly - they think nothing bad will ever happen to them. My friend's son died, aged 19, being driven by an 18 year old friend at crazy speeds. Another saw a young man screaming in anguish and beating his car because he'd just run over and killed a 6 year old boy. Many lives changed forever due to someone ignoring those who helped him learn.
Apparently our brains are not fully mature and able to risk assess well until we are 25 years old. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
In our city there are street patrols (run by community volunteers) who try to help people in this state - by talking to them, finding them a taxi to get home safely and in some cases giving them a pair of flip-flops because their stilettos are broken (NB they offer help to anyone who seems to need it, not just girls on their own).
I think it's very sad that she spent all that time wandering around, obviously drunk and confused and lost, and the only person who cared enough to do anything about it seems to have been a predator.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I said she needed information, I meant she needed to learn how to size up men who approached her. She was not snatched off the street. She went to the bar with him willingly, and presumably she got into his car willingly.
If she had refused to go with him, there were other people around who would have intervened if he had used force against her.
In the mid-fifties, I was a student in Germany. Like almost all students then, I hitchhiked. Drivers did not assume that a woman hitchhiking was really looking for, or available for, sex. However, women still had to be careful. When a man stopped his car for me, I asked where he was going, and I paid very careful attention to how he looked at me. If he looked only at my face, as most of them did, and was going in the direction that I was, I got in the car. If he looked at my body, I said I wanted to go somewhere else, and I didn't get in the car.
In my OP I said that most women know how to judge situations by the time they are twenty-five. They are preyed upon at a far lower rate than teenagers.
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna
Well, this is a new twist on victim blaming. This victim escapes blame on the basis of speculation that she was ignorant of "the rules for women", but now it's society's fault for not teaching and enforcing "the rules for women". So women who are assaulted are either reckless or ignorant, still either Madonnas or whores.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo
She had a right to wander around, and no one had the right to do anything to her. However, it's no good having She had a perfect right to be where she was carved on your tombstone.
I am not interested in assigning blame. I am interested in keeping as many young women as possible alive.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Moo: quote:
She was not snatched off the street. She went to the bar with him willingly, and presumably she got into his car willingly.
But people who are drunk often behave in ways that they would never consider when sober. And at a party you may find yourself drinking more than you intended, and perhaps not realising that you've had too much until it's too late to stop. And even if you don't intend to get drunk someone else may spike your drink (NB I am not suggesting that this is what happened here).
People do stupid things all the time; that doesn't give others the right to take advantage of their stupidity. But apparently nobody tried to help her find her way home, either. According to the OP she was wandering around randomly for over an hour before this guy picked her up; if I was one of the people who saw her during this time I'd be feeling very guilty today, even if I hadn't realised that she needed help.
It's not just the predators who are the problem; it's the people who are too scared, or too indifferent, or too preoccupied to intervene. All the rest of us, in other words. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I said she needed information, I meant she needed to learn how to size up men who approached her. She was not snatched off the street. She went to the bar with him willingly, and presumably she got into his car willingly.
If she had refused to go with him, there were other people around who would have intervened if he had used force against her.
In the mid-fifties, I was a student in Germany. Like almost all students then, I hitchhiked. Drivers did not assume that a woman hitchhiking was really looking for, or available for, sex. However, women still had to be careful. When a man stopped his car for me, I asked where he was going, and I paid very careful attention to how he looked at me. If he looked only at my face, as most of them did, and was going in the direction that I was, I got in the car. If he looked at my body, I said I wanted to go somewhere else, and I didn't get in the car.
In my OP I said that most women know how to judge situations by the time they are twenty-five. They are preyed upon at a far lower rate than teenagers.
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna
Well, this is a new twist on victim blaming. This victim escapes blame on the basis of speculation that she was ignorant of "the rules for women", but now it's society's fault for not teaching and enforcing "the rules for women". So women who are assaulted are either reckless or ignorant, still either Madonnas or whores.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo
She had a right to wander around, and no one had the right to do anything to her. However, it's no good having She had a perfect right to be where she was carved on your tombstone.
I am not interested in assigning blame. I am interested in keeping as many young women as possible alive.
Moo
This is the same philosophy as mandates veils for women (because you can't trust men not to rape you if they can see your face and find you attractive), that means no-one dare walk anywhere or cycle anywhere any more (because you can't trust motorists not to run you down), that means that victims of bullying have to find alternative routes home or change schools, that means that the more vulnerable one is, the more one is restricted. Whether the intent is to blame the victim or not, the fact is that the onus to change is on the person who isn't doing anything wrong in the first place.
It's superficially seductive, but the end result is everyone except the top priveleged predator is afraid to move.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Many people who saw her had the impression that she was drunk.
I just wanted to pick this up (neither pro nor anti the point you are making Moo) but in my small (and safe) community in the last year we have had two or three young men who have come to terminal grief where their decision making capacity was clearly impaired by drink - in two cases it may never be clear quite how they came to harm (though their bodies have been recovered). Earlier in the year, a the body of a young woman was recovered from the river Ouse in York, again drink was a factor. Sadly, nowhere is safe if you have had too much to drink.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I would echo BroJames point. A couple of years ago, a University student was having a night out with friends. He became drunk and was asked to leave the pub. His more sober friends put him into a taxi to take him back to his Halls. He realised he did not have enough money for the full fare, and asked to be dropped off a short walk from Halls. Somehow he missed the entrance and wandered about for some time, lost. Several people saw him over the next couple of hours. One group of people gave him directions and also a drink of milk. The taxi driver, driving another fare, also saw him. Nobody realised that his disorientation was increasingly due to hypothermia rather than drunkeness. He never made it back.
This case upset me partially because the young man was the same age as my son, but also because a school classmate died in the same situation. Young men, lightly dressed for a night out, deciding to walk home after an evening drinking, in sub zero temperatures.
How do you convince young men that this is not safe?
ETA - for my classmate, RIP, John McS.
[ 24. September 2014, 13:52: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I said she needed information, I meant she needed to learn how to size up men who approached her.
I'm highly skeptical of the idea that it's so easy to "size up" who is a sexual predator and who isn't. Successful predators are successful because they seem just like everyone else. How many times have we seen interviews with people after someone they know has been revealed as a serial offender expressing their shock and disbelief at the revelation? "I can't believe it! He was always so nice." is the way those interviews usually play out.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Studies show that is is usually a very few men who commit many rapes on campus. They know to look for the freshmen, the girls who have little experience with alcohol and men. A lot of pain could be saved by simply nailing these creeps and jailing them. (I am also a fan of castration.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I'm honestly not sure how education on "stranger danger" could have helped this girl. She was alone, intoxicated, unsure of her surroundings, and with a dead battery on her phone. Rape and abduction are far less likely than things like passing out and sustaining a head injury, falling over an edge or into a body of water, or wandering into traffic. Things that are unsafe for anyone, regardless of gender or age.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: I'm honestly not sure how education on "stranger danger" could have helped this girl. She was alone, intoxicated, unsure of her surroundings, and with a dead battery on her phone.
Maybe it could have prevented her from being in a situation where she was alone, intoxicated, unsure of her surroundings, and with a dead battery on her phone.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: I'm honestly not sure how education on "stranger danger" could have helped this girl. She was alone, intoxicated, unsure of her surroundings, and with a dead battery on her phone.
Maybe it could have prevented her from being in a situation where she was alone, intoxicated, unsure of her surroundings, and with a dead battery on her phone.
Did you skip the rest of my post?
Lots of bad things can happen to a drunk, disoriented person that have nothing to do with stranger abduction. She needed education on "intoxication danger" and frankly everyone - male, female, old, young - needs to know that being drunk and alone is not safe in any environment.
[ 24. September 2014, 17:13: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Lots of bad things can happen to a drunk, disoriented person that have nothing to do with stranger abduction. She needed education on "intoxication danger" and frankly everyone - male, female, old, young - needs to know that being drunk and alone is not safe in any environment.
With this agree — to a degree. I don't think becoming drunk is always a bad thing, it's happened to me once or twice. But there are some things you have to be careful of.
[ 24. September 2014, 17:24: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
She may well have been educated about any and all of those things. I was certainly educated about all of the following, and that didn't stop me from doing them:
- having sex without protecting against pregnancy
- making a date with a complete stranger that turned into sex (that wasn't what I was expecting; call me terminally naive. But when it turned out to be what he wanted, I wanted it too and didn't leave).
- gone skinny-dipping with two other strangers and almost lost my clothes in the dark under blowing sand.
- gotten so drunk I ended up being forcibly taken to the hospital
- driven waaaaaay too fast
- ridden a motorcycle without a helmet
- continued eating too many sweets after being diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes
I don't know if I'm particularly lucky that nothing fatal has happened to me yet, or if it's actually the case that, although these are all things that it's more prudent to avoid, the actuarial risks of something fatal happening as a result are actually lower than other things we risk every day, like driving a car.
I suspect many people have lists of imprudent things they've done despite having been educated not to do them.
Actually, the verdict is still out on the Type 2 Diabetes, and it's not like I'm trying to press my luck, but it's been really hard for me to somehow change my habits, and I don't know whether this is because changing habits is particularly hard, or because I haven't had the right shocking-come-to-Jesus moment education about Type 2 Diabetes and its risks, or because I'm just stupid.
But from my experience I don't think "someone should have educated her" or "why didn't she know" or "why did she act this way even when she did know" is particularly relevant. Perhaps the last question might possibly be useful, if addressed from a point of view of, what causes certain kinds of behaviours even if one has been warned against them, and is there anyway to help change that? As a practical idea, rather than a wringing our hands kind of idea.
[ 24. September 2014, 20:42: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm highly skeptical of the idea that it's so easy to "size up" who is a sexual predator and who isn't. Successful predators are successful because they seem just like everyone else. How many times have we seen interviews with people after someone they know has been revealed as a serial offender expressing their shock and disbelief at the revelation? "I can't believe it! He was always so nice." is the way those interviews usually play out.
I am not saying that it's easy to size up a sexual predator. It is, however, usually easy for a woman to recognize the fact that a man seems to be taking a great interest in her body. (This is much easier to do when there is plenty of light.) People who live next door to a serial sex offender never realized anything was wrong because he never looked at them with sexual interest.
What I'm saying is that women need to notice how men look at them and speak to them.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
As the recipient of passes completely out of the blue from people I thought I had perfectly normal professional or platonic friendly relationships with, either it's way the fuck harder to size people up properly than it seems to kibitzers, or I'm really stupid. And it's not like I never notice: there are certainly some men who give me the creeps and I give a wide berth to (no matter how much they seem to be treated as "oh that's nice Mr. so-and-so at church"). So it's not like I have no radar at all. But there are people who slip completely under that radar. And I presume similar things happen to other people. So cut the poor woman some slack.
Moo, you said in the OP you were angry. Can you explain what you're angry about?
[ 24. September 2014, 21:51: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Problem is, being drunk impairs your judgement and lowers your inhibitions.
Whilst you are talking about acquiring inhibitions and good judgements. You can have these things and drink will still mess with them.
And you are naive when you're young, and you think you're not - says the woman who went back to a guys flat at night because he asked her to help him with his essay. He was 52 I was 19, (and sober as it happens), but he was a student on my course and a single parent with a young child at home. I really didn't expect him to get drunk and proposition me.
I was lucky, I played dumb when he dropped hints, and ended up sleeping on his floor cos I was not going to walk 30 mins back to halls at past midnight. But. He stalked me on and off for the next couple of years, turning up drunk outside my bedroom door at 6am, turning up in student bars and declaring in front of whoever that he wanted to have sex with me.
Still, could have been worse.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
An eighteen-year-old woman is almost certainly dead. If she hadn't been abducted, she would probably have lived another sixty years. It's a terrible waste of human life.
Also, no one knows what happened to her, so there can be no closure. If and when the body is found, there will be closure; however sometimes bodies are so well concealed that they are never found.
Moreover, the university community in Charlottesville is hurting badly. They have lost one of their own in a horrible way.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Crosspost, replying to Moo.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
An eighteen-year-old woman is almost certainly dead. If she hadn't been abducted, she would probably have lived another sixty years. It's a terrible waste of human life.
Also, no one knows what happened to her, so there can be no closure. If and when the body is found, there will be closure; however sometimes bodies are so well concealed that they are never found.
Moreover, the university community in Charlottesville is hurting badly. They have lost one of their own in a horrible way.
Moo
I understand being angry about those things. What I don't understand is your emphasis on all the things that "if she hadn't done thus-and-such, she'd still be alive." To me that's somewhere between blaming the victim and magical thinking "see, I do all these things, so I'm safe."
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What I don't understand is your emphasis on all the things that "if she hadn't done thus-and-such, she'd still be alive."
I don't blame her. I blame the people who never warned her that she should carefully size up strange men before she went anywhere with them. At least she should get a clear look at the man, which she could not do on the dark street or the dimly-lit bar.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What I don't understand is your emphasis on all the things that "if she hadn't done thus-and-such, she'd still be alive."
I don't blame her. I blame the people who never warned her that she should carefully size up strange men before she went anywhere with them. At least she should get a clear look at the man, which she could not do on the dark street or the dimly-lit bar.
Moo
I think what many people on this thread are saying, is that she had almost certainly been told that, but inexperience and alcohol knacker your judgement.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Moo, how do you know she didn't get a clear look at the man? And what if a clear look at the man didn't tell her anything? What if a clear look at the man actually told her the reverse: here is someone I recognize from being around the University, so I trust him, and he's not giving off any obvious danger signals to me? What if a clear look at the man told her that of all the options available to her, going with him seemed to be the best one? What if she was drunk and befuddled and it didn't matter if she got a clear look at all (if there was even anything to be picked up from a clear look)?
What you're saying adds up to a bunch of "she should have done this and it would have saved her". You've taken it one step away from victim-blaming to instead blame the people who you think (without evidence) didn't teach her these things. But it's still magical thinking.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Moo, how do you know she didn't get a clear look at the man? And what if a clear look at the man didn't tell her anything? What if a clear look at the man actually told her the reverse: here is someone I recognize from being around the University, so I trust him, and he's not giving off any obvious danger signals to me?
I know that they met on a dark street and went into a dimly-lit bar. There were no bright lights in the area which would have enabled her to see him. The importance of seeing him clearly was that she could have paid careful attention to how he looked at her. If he showed signs of sexual interest, alarm bells should have gone off.
He worked in a technical capacity at the university hospital, and it's unlikely that their paths had crossed. Moreover, her friends, when shown a picture of him, said that they had never seen him before.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The importance of seeing him clearly was that she could have paid careful attention to how he looked at her. If he showed signs of sexual interest, alarm bells should have gone off.
Right, because people are so good at paying careful attention and making decisions based on close observations when they're hammered. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Moo: I know that they met on a dark street and went into a dimly-lit bar. There were no bright lights in the area which would have enabled her to see him. The importance of seeing him clearly was that she could have paid careful attention to how he looked at her. If he showed signs of sexual interest, alarm bells should have gone off.
It has happened sometimes that I've been in a bar at night with a woman whom I'd only met that evening. I can assure you that in all of these occasions, the thought of sex has crossed my mind.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
[cross-posted with Moo and LeRoc]
Fine, whatever. Never go anywhere with a man you don't know. If by accident you find yourself hypothermic and a short walk from your dorm but disoriented and going in the wrong direction and a man you don't know shows up to help you to your dorm, tell him no thank you and keep wandering around until you freeze to death. Or wait, it's night time and you can't see him clearly, so definitely there's double reason not to accept any help.
But oh yes, there's a long list of other ways to protect yourself from ever getting in that situation. And on and on and on. Of course you would never ever ever get yourself in a situation where you meet a man you don't know while you're alone. And we won't blame you when something bad happens to you, because we know it's not your fault, but we presume that must mean someone failed to teach you these things because if someone did teach you these things and you ignored them, then we're getting close to blaming you, and we know we don't want to blame you, and it's far too convoluted to try to accept that sometimes people do foolish things, and sometimes people do reckless things, and sometimes actually there are no warning signs at all even in broad daylight when stone-cold sober, and it doesn't seem sufficient to be angry at the perpetrator, because that would require acknowledging that there are people like the perpetrator who do awful things that we can't always protect against. So we won't go near any of that painful confusion, and we'll just decide that there's a slam-dunk obvious answer: people didn't teach you these things.
It would be too painful to acknowledge that sometimes really dreadful things happen and there isn't some magic formula that can keep everyone safe.
I'm sorry for your anger, and I'm sorry for your grief, and I'm sorry that you and the whole community are hurting this bad, and I'm most of all sorry for this young woman for whom I am praying she might be found alive, but expecting that she won't be. And I wouldn't say things this way in All Saints, but you came to Purgatory and asked for serious discussion, and what might be acceptable and sympathetic in someone grieving may not actually have half a leg to stand on in serious discussion.
[ 24. September 2014, 23:23: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
It would be too painful to acknowledge that sometimes really dreadful things happen and there isn't some magic formula that can keep everyone safe.
I don't think anyone on the Ship believes there's some kind of magic formula that can keep everyone safe.
However, there are also certain realities about the current US rhetorical climate particularly on college campuses.
Yes, maybe this girl was taught all sorts of things about risky behavior blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, if her parents didn't feel comfortable talking to her about this stuff, then maybe she wasn't.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What I don't understand is your emphasis on all the things that "if she hadn't done thus-and-such, she'd still be alive."
I don't blame her. I blame the people who never warned her that she should carefully size up strange men before she went anywhere with them.
Why do you assume nobody warned her?
I know that it is dangerous to walk alone at night through certain areas. In my home city, I even know which areas are the worst. But I still do it sometimes, if I have somewhere I need to be, because I don't want to let that narrative win out. I make the choice to take the risk, because it is my choice to make. That's despite me being in a demographic with one of the highest rates of being victims of assault and murder.
Am I doing wrong? Fuck that shit. I will not live in a world where criminals make me afraid to walk out of my own door.
I know the stats. I know what is dangerous. That information is not hidden from me. Nobody "didn't tell me". If I get stabbed to death tomorrow, nobody can say "Amy's friends should have told her to stop going places on her own".
If I get assaulted, there will be only one person to blame: the one who did the assault.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
I know that it is dangerous to walk alone at night through certain areas. In my home city, I even know which areas are the worst. But I still do it sometimes, if I have somewhere I need to be, because I don't want to let that narrative win out. I make the choice to take the risk, because it is my choice to make. That's despite me being in a demographic with one of the highest rates of being victims of assault and murder.
Am I doing wrong? Fuck that shit. I will not live in a world where criminals make me afraid to walk out of my own door.
{snip}
If I get assaulted, there will be only one person to blame: the one who did the assault.
I agree completely with what you say. However, you are not eighteen years old. In my OP I mentioned that women over twenty-five are attacked much less often than teenagers. This is because, like you, they understand the risks and know how to walk safely in unsafe areas.
Of course the only person to blame for an assault is the attacker. I said that in my OP.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
It would be too painful to acknowledge that sometimes really dreadful things happen and there isn't some magic formula that can keep everyone safe.
I don't think anyone on the Ship believes there's some kind of magic formula that can keep everyone safe.
I associate the kinds of things Moo is choosing to focus on and the way she is focusing on them, with that kind of magical thinking, which can be present whether the thinker realizes or not that that's what it amounts to.
Your link is a more practical assessment and invitation to discussion than simply repeatedly asking "why didn't anyone teach her these things". And raising points for a broad discussion that should perhaps happen is different from asking about a particular woman "why didn't anyone teach her these things?" as if knowing those things would certainly have kept her safe.
[ 25. September 2014, 00:04: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Moo,
Since you chose to post this in Purgatory for discussion:
You have posted no public policy strategies for this sort of situation. Why is this? You seem to believe that this young woman lacked information on "Reading Nonverbal Language of Unfamiliar Males". How would you propose to address this? Who would teach it, and what would be required pass? What sort of restrictions would women have to live under until they qualified?
If you wish to blame unspecified adults in her life who "should have taught her better", I think it likely that this is a grief reaction on your part, rather than a cooler analysis of the situation. Autenrieth Road is right: this is magical thinking which does not take into account the far greater likelihood that inexperience and alcohol consumption impaired her ability to assess risk.
quote:
In the mid-fifties, I was a student in Germany. Like almost all students then, I hitchhiked.
If you were eighteen and drunk, late at night, and had a transporter and a time machine, this constitutes relevant experience. Experience in a different country, in a different time, when there were different social attitudes toward hitchhiking, when you were a different age (possibly?), at a different time of day and in a different cognitive condition than this young woman, means not much.
I am genuinely sorry for your anger and grief, but when it comes to public policy, they impair judgment just as badly as alcohol.
If you still wish to go with the magical thinking route, and blame her parents for not teaching her something you believe would have saved her... well, don't we all wish parents were better at parenting? Don't parents wish they were better at parenting? Intervention would require prayer or public policy measures or both. So what do you propose?
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
She left the second party alone and wandered around.
This is the bit that bothers me; why did she leave alone? Were her friends too drunk to realise that was what she was doing? Or did she not seem to be that drunk to them? Or were they just teenagers who thought that she was invulnerable like the rest of them?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
I know that it is dangerous to walk alone at night through certain areas. In my home city, I even know which areas are the worst. But I still do it sometimes, if I have somewhere I need to be, because I don't want to let that narrative win out. I make the choice to take the risk, because it is my choice to make.
I don't.
Both of my sons have been threatened with knives in a certain area of our town. They ran out of danger.
I can't run that fast.
I avoid it completely, day and night.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I don't blame her. I blame the people who never warned her that she should carefully size up strange men before she went anywhere with them. At least she should get a clear look at the man, which she could not do on the dark street or the dimly-lit bar.
Moo
I still feel like this is completely missing the point and that you are fixated on the role of this man in Hannah's disappearance.
Did you consider the fact that maybe she was interested in this guy (even through beer goggles) and so had no problem with his sexual interest in her? Is there something about his face, which you think could have told her easily that he was dangerous? I'm missing how lighting would have affected anything.
Here is a list of alcohol-related deaths of American university students.
Recent alcohol-related deaths
I can see - drowning, car crash, hypothermia, alcohol poisoning, head injury, fall, accidental fire, etc.
It is tragic what has happened to Hannah (although we still don't know all the details) but I think the element of "scary black man abducts precious white teenager for sex" is what fuels prurient interest in her story. It seems there are young people dying after drinking too much in far more mundane ways - at least from the media's perspective.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It is tragic what has happened to Hannah (although we still don't know all the details) but I think the element of "scary black man abducts precious white teenager for sex" is what fuels prurient interest in her story.
No, because there was equal concern when Morgan Harrington disappeared, and no one knows to this day who abducted and murdered her.
There was also a black teenager, Alexis Murphy who disappeared, and great concern was shown in that case.
People around here object strongly to having young women abducted and murdered. It's much worse than having someone die in a drunk driving accident.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
No, because there was equal concern when Morgan Harrington disappeared, and no one knows to this day who abducted and murdered her.
There was also a black teenager, Alexis Murphy who disappeared, and great concern was shown in that case.
You are wrong to say that there was equal concern. You have linked to a local news station for the story about Alexis - the black girl - and on the Wiki for Morgan all of the links are to VA news outlets as well.
What we have here with Hannah is an international news story. I was in VA last week and it was all over the news. I was very surprised to return to London and see British newspapers carrying it as well.
What's even sadder about this, is that's it's only the wide interest in Hannah that has the police publicly saying that the area she was taken from has seen the disappearance of several girls her age in the past few years. The media picks up certain stories and not others, become some stories sell. "Black man kidnaps white teenager" ALWAYS gets clicks and sells papers.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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