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• The original Fall that buggered up creation happened before the creation of humanity (hence there could be a tempting snake in the Garden).
• Thus we get the whole blood-soaked narrative of evolution over billions of years, and the development of creatures like Attenborough's worm that exists to dwell in human eyes: not God's original plan for how species would develop, but the one he ended up using. (The chapter on "Providence" - God working for the best through his fallen creation - is also amazing.)
• Adam and Eve (for want of a better term; i.e. the first humans, who/whenever they were) were created later on to put all this right, but fell themselves, leading to humanity's sinful condition.

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Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I'm currently reading Michael Lloyd's "Cafe Theology", which suggests a narrative that I've never considered before but which I find ever more appealing every time I think about it. If I understand his argument right (and apologies to him if I don't):

• The original Fall that buggered up creation happened before the creation of humanity (hence there could be a tempting snake in the Garden).
• Thus we get the whole blood-soaked narrative of evolution over billions of years, and the development of creatures like Attenborough's worm that exists to dwell in human eyes: not God's original plan for how species would develop, but the one he ended up using. (The chapter on "Providence" - God working for the best through his fallen creation - is also amazing.)
• Adam and Eve (for want of a better term; i.e. the first humans, who/whenever they were) were created later on to put all this right, but fell themselves, leading to humanity's sinful condition.

I think that ticks all your boxes.

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Originally posted by Evensong:
That's nice, but it doesn't fit the biblical narrative. Where is the original Fall before humanity? Who or what "fell"?

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Originally posted by Evensong:
That's nice, but it doesn't fit the biblical narrative. Where is the original Fall before humanity? Who or what "fell"?

And there is no mention of Adam and Eve being created to "put things right". God created the world and it was "good".

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
In "On Fairy Stories", J.R.R. Tolkien posited that all our own stories will contain the same fallen world (and a back-story of a fall) as in the real world, due to us being in a fallen world.
In his own works, Tokien puts the whole thing back at the very start, the creation of the world, when Melkor injects his own vision (which in this myth is via music) in place of that of Eru, the creator. All subsequent evil comes from that initial act of hubris.

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I'm currently reading Michael Lloyd's "Cafe Theology", which suggests a narrative that I've never considered before but which I find ever more appealing every time I think about it. If I understand his argument right (and apologies to him if I don't):

• The original Fall that buggered up creation happened before the creation of humanity (hence there could be a tempting snake in the Garden).
• Thus we get the whole blood-soaked narrative of evolution over billions of years, and the development of creatures like Attenborough's worm that exists to dwell in human eyes: not God's original plan for how species would develop, but the one he ended up using. (The chapter on "Providence" - God working for the best through his fallen creation - is also amazing.)
• Adam and Eve (for want of a better term; i.e. the first humans, who/whenever they were) were created later on to put all this right, but fell themselves, leading to humanity's sinful condition.

I think that ticks all your boxes.

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That's nice, but it doesn't fit the biblical narrative. Where is the original Fall before humanity? Who or what "fell"?

And there is no mention of Adam and Eve being created to "put things right". God created the world and it was "good".

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quetzalcoatl: I don't understand this view that nature is 'not right'. For example, pain and death are vital to the flourishing of nature - pain is an important warning signal to many animals, of injury, disease, attack, and so on; death is a brilliant form of recycling.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't understand this view that nature is 'not right'. For example, pain and death are vital to the flourishing of nature - pain is an important warning signal to many animals, of injury, disease, attack, and so on; death is a brilliant form of recycling.

Ah, now I'm beginning to understand why I gave up being a Christian!

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't understand this view that nature is 'not right'. For example, pain and death are vital to the flourishing of nature - pain is an important warning signal to many animals, of injury, disease, attack, and so on; death is a brilliant form of recycling.

Ah, now I'm beginning to understand why I gave up being a Christian!

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But that's the point. Death IS natural-- and yet it is also the enemy. Suffering (both human and animal) IS natural-- and yet it is also the enemy. We cannot deny that the suffering that is part even of the natural world (that not attributable to human causes) is not just some utilitarian "burning your hand on the stove to alert you to danger" sort-- it includes horrific, deep, awful torture of both animals and humans, including innocent children. The natural "rules" of the cycle of life include things that from a justice perspective seem totally wrong-- e.g. the way a lion survives by preying on the weak; the way evolutionary development is dependent upon the death and suffering of the "unfit". The view I am (arguably) advocating says that while this is "natural" (i.e. normal) it is not "right"-- i.e. the way things were intended to be. The hope found in Rev. 22 portrays and alternative future, an alternative universe. Creation as God intends it to be.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, fair enough. I just see life as united; there is joy and pain; life and death; love and hate. Somehow, in a way that I can't describe really, they form a whole. I don't see 'enemies' really; it's because I will die quite soon, that my life is so splendid. But your view is your view.

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Originally posted by Gwai:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, fair enough. I just see life as united; there is joy and pain; life and death; love and hate. Somehow, in a way that I can't describe really, they form a whole. I don't see 'enemies' really; it's because I will die quite soon, that my life is so splendid. But your view is your view.

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I can say that for myself, but for me that completely breaks down when I think of those I love. My daughter's suffering is an enemy to me even when I accept it may be necessary or even for the best. My children's deaths are enemies of such magnitude that they are not to be imagined only prevented.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Perfect Xiānshēng Mr. Cresswell.

Or is that Chinese for God the way Señor is in Spanish?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't understand this view that nature is 'not right'. For example, pain and death are vital to the flourishing of nature - pain is an important warning signal to many animals, of injury, disease, attack, and so on; death is a brilliant form of recycling.

Ah, now I'm beginning to understand why I gave up being a Christian!

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But that's the point. Death IS natural-- and yet it is also the enemy. Suffering (both human and animal) IS natural-- and yet it is also the enemy. We cannot deny that the suffering that is part even of the natural world (that not attributable to human causes) is not just some utilitarian "burning your hand on the stove to alert you to danger" sort-- it includes horrific, deep, awful torture of both animals and humans, including innocent children. The natural "rules" of the cycle of life include things that from a justice perspective seem totally wrong-- e.g. the way a lion survives by preying on the weak; the way evolutionary development is dependent upon the death and suffering of the "unfit". The view I am (arguably) advocating says that while this is "natural" (i.e. normal) it is not "right"-- i.e. the way things were intended to be. The hope found in Rev. 22 portrays and alternative future, an alternative universe. Creation as God intends it to be.

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Well, fair enough. I just see life as united; there is joy and pain; life and death; love and hate. Somehow, in a way that I can't describe really, they form a whole. I don't see 'enemies' really; it's because I will die quite soon, that my life is so splendid. But your view is your view.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
cliffdweller

Well, I was talking above about my brothers' dying - that was pretty hard. It nearly killed my mother.

I don't see it as not meant to be, I suppose, although I don't blame anyone who does.

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Why is death the enemy when it is also a going-home?

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Why is death the enemy when it is also a going-home?

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It's not a going home in the Christian tradition. It is in Islam.

In Christianity we are in a temporary state of "rest" or "waiting" until the general resurrection of the dead when we, like Christ, will live again in some kind of new body in the new earth. And that new life on earth will be eternal.

Quite a different schema from the old Greek gig.

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That must be Purgatory

I find it odd that people complain that they will die (or someone else dies) when the one thing that we know will definitely happen to our physical body here on Earth is - that it will die. The grief is not for the person who has gone but for our own loss of them. And yes - the Chinese blessing- Grandparents die, Parents die, Children die - is definitely better. What I find really weird about modern culture is that we talk about someone's life being saved - drugs save lives, firemen save lives, lifeboatmen save lives, campaigns to prevent children swallowing pen tops save lives - there are so many lives saved, it's no wonder the population of the world is increasing rapidly. Physical lives are not "saved" - they are extended. As a cat well knows. I woke up to a nightmare a few days ago - an old lioness saw me hiding in a telephone booth, and came over and started to drag me out, feet first. So, from the way my heart was thumping when I woke up, I'm definitely physically scared of being eaten! But spiritually I don't see death as being a bad thing. Like lions and lambs - if the rules get changed, then I'll take my immortality with the best of them, but until then, when my time comes, I will also do my best to go peacefully rather than raging. And I will hope that anyone who knows me will have a small celebration of my life as long as it was rather than waste their lives in grief about my absence.

Illness - that's different. I agree this is related to the fall. If this were still the garden of eden we would live a happy and healthy life for our allotted years.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Why is death the enemy when it is also a going-home?

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It's not a going home in the Christian tradition. It is in Islam.

In Christianity we are in a temporary state of "rest" or "waiting" until the general resurrection of the dead when we, like Christ, will live again in some kind of new body in the new earth. And that new life on earth will be eternal.

Quite a different schema from the old Greek gig.

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That must be Purgatory

I find it odd that people complain that they will die (or someone else dies) when the one thing that we know will definitely happen to our physical body here on Earth is - that it will die. The grief is not for the person who has gone but for our own loss of them. And yes - the Chinese blessing- Grandparents die, Parents die, Children die - is definitely better. What I find really weird about modern culture is that we talk about someone's life being saved - drugs save lives, firemen save lives, lifeboatmen save lives, campaigns to prevent children swallowing pen tops save lives - there are so many lives saved, it's no wonder the population of the world is increasing rapidly. Physical lives are not "saved" - they are extended. As a cat well knows. I woke up to a nightmare a few days ago - an old lioness saw me hiding in a telephone booth, and came over and started to drag me out, feet first. So, from the way my heart was thumping when I woke up, I'm definitely physically scared of being eaten! But spiritually I don't see death as being a bad thing. Like lions and lambs - if the rules get changed, then I'll take my immortality with the best of them, but until then, when my time comes, I will also do my best to go peacefully rather than raging. And I will hope that anyone who knows me will have a small celebration of my life as long as it was rather than waste their lives in grief about my absence.

Illness - that's different. I agree this is related to the fall. If this were still the garden of eden we would live a happy and healthy life for our allotted years.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Why is death the enemy when it is also a going-home?

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It's not a going home in the Christian tradition. It is in Islam.

In Christianity we are in a temporary state of "rest" or "waiting" until the general resurrection of the dead when we, like Christ, will live again in some kind of new body in the new earth. And that new life on earth will be eternal.

Quite a different schema from the old Greek gig.

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That must be Purgatory

I find it odd that ... BLAH ... for our allotted years.

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Why is illness related to the fall but not death? Scripture seems to clearly teach that both are part of the brokenness of creation-- not the way that things are meant to be.

Again, I don't see anything "odd" at all about about complaints about dying, nor anything "weird" about talking about a life being "saved." In fact, this is the exact language Scripture uses all the time-- in fact, Scripture uses the word "salvation" and "redemption" far more often to describe that sort of physical "saving" from a physical death than it does to describe the more spiritual meaning we usually attribute to those words.

Just because death is normal and inevitable does not mean it is good. The universality of grief-- that every culture, every religion, in every time and generation grieves-- would speak to this. The human instinct to fight for your life speaks to that. The fact that even strong believers in the afterlife will endure tremendous pain (e.g. my friend currently ravaged by chemo) in order to preserve their physical lives-- speaks to that truth.

I, too, believe in the Hebrew configuration of death as-- death. No life. You are in the grave. I believe in the hope of the (future) resurrection- the life to come. Which is why, I believe, death feels like such a huge loss, even for believers. Why we fight against it so instinctively and vigorously. Because it IS a loss. It IS the end-- for now. There is a strong hope for the future, but today it is the end. It is the enemy-- as Scripture says, the last enemy to be defeated. But it will be defeated.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I do not understand how anything can not be as it is. It isn't meant to be anything. It is.

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