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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The challenges of middle (or whatever) age
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
This comment from Gamaliel on the walking sacrament thread
quote:
what I'd have found welcome and edifying as a single guy in my 20s I found signally unhelpful as a married bloke with young kids during the following decade.
reminded me of something that has been in the back of my mind for a while.
I will be 40 next year and due to various factors (health, work, Twanglets becoming teenagers etc) I suspect that in middle age I will face different challenges in “middle age” than I have in my 20's and 30's.
Do you think that there are particular issues that we confront at various stages of life? If so what would they be? And how does/should Faith and Church interface with them?
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The first, biggest one, is staying married. If you've managed to make it this far, then the next ten years are when it can all fall apart, often through no active fault of either you or the spouse.
Second, equally large, is the death of your parents. My father in law died five years ago, my own father will die within the next month. It's never going to be easy.
Third major change is your children needing different things from you, and just when you get on really well with them and enjoy interacting with them as adults, they leave home.
Fourthly, the middle-age spread strikes, which means either you have to don the lycra and actively work it off, or you turn into a blob.
I'm struggling with all of those at the moment, and I'm 48. Church is utterly devoid of advice on any of those subjects.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Being caught in the middle between your children still needing you to be a parent, and your elderly parents starting to need you to look after them too.
The career plateau. When younger people come in after you, and get promoted above you, and you can get no further. Because of your age, you find it increasingly difficult to get job interviews elsewhere.
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Jenn.
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# 5239
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Posted
Part of me is wondering how the church can do stuff about these challenges though?
I mean, talking about the problems of living with small children (my stage of life) would be great, but for those struggling with infertility it would be very painful, for those who are past that stage it would be pointless and for those younger - I doubt they would retain the information long enough for it to be relevant. The range of people in most congregations precludes spending any length on time on age related challenges within main services.
Splitting the church into age/stage related groups is another option, but this often gets talked down in many circles as ideally we would be able to learn from one another.
I'm also far from convinced that individual information evenings would get much take up, as people are generally only willing to be open about these things in trusted groups.
So how should the church approach these issues?
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
Jenn: quote:
So how should the church approach these issues?
As a basic, the church should avoid laying down rules, or just issuing statements, that make life difficult/unhappy for some of its members. We just had an incidence of this in relation to H&A Day(s) and the Not Waving but Drowning private board.
Being glib about depression, or not realising that there are non-seniors who can't have/don't have/do not want children would be other cases. Running most "parish" events at times that are only feasible for the retired is another.
Sensitivity and communication are critical here, however one goes about it.
Another item would be dealing with the idea that the church is not the building. Meetings or gatherings don't all have to be formal prayer or service events. (I can expand on this via PM if you want)
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think it maybe comes down to building as many individual trusting relationships between people as you can, so that when these things strike, you have people with a varied field of expertise(s) to go to. Of course a church leader can't make these relationships happen, but I often think wistfully how nice it would be if every church had one person who made it their focus to promote these kinds of friendships--relationships--mentorships--crossties in the body of Christ.
This happens in our small ethnic congregation pretty naturally, as the pastor knows everybody and automatically thinks, "Oh, X is having such-and-such-a-problem with her teenagers, why don't I introduce her to Y, whose last teenager has just left home and who knows a lot about the challenges." And who then asks X if that would be all right, and upon getting the okay, introduces X to Y and sees to it that they have coffee and a conversation started in a comfy spot.
This results in a pretty strongly knit congregation, with ties going into the community outside the church as well--and evangelism tends to follow those lines naturally. That's a big plus.
The negatives are of course that it takes time and a lot of careful attention to do this well and not screw up (say, by forcing help on someone who doesn't want it). It has to be someone who knows enough of the confidential stuff to realize who is having a hard time and be able to match them with someone who has had experience in that area. And above all, you don't want the church gossip or the church busybody in this role!
But when it happens, it's marvelous.
Unfortunately, they don't teach it in any seminary I'm aware of. I think our grads learn how to start and run programs for groups of people, but they get little grounding in how to deal with needs one on one. And unless you have a very large congregation, there are always going to be individuals who are going through midlife challenges when the rest of the congregation is much older or younger, or dealing with singleness of infertility when everyone else is married or having babies, and so forth. If you're a pastor or church leader and all you know how to do is set up group ministries, those people are SOL. And that's not good.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
The challenge of middle age for me is living as a single person in his 40s where for most people in my church:
"40s" = married with kids, probably teens.
and
"single" = person in their 20s or younger.
It means that I rarely have both age and stage in common with someone, and I do feel that.
Weirdly there is another guy in the church with almost exactly my situation: similar age, also single, very similar job. But for some reason I've never quite fathomed we don't seem to really get on more than polite Hellos.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
As a basic, the church should avoid laying down rules, or just issuing statements, that make life difficult/unhappy for some of its members.
Oh yes, let's have a church that never rocks the boat, that only ever makes the most anodyne of comments out of fear that anything else will offend someone somewhere. Let's have a church that never challenges anyone to rethink their life, improve themselves or change their behaviour lest such challenges upset the challenged. Let's have a church that abandons the notion of sin because it's just too hard for some people to deal with.
And then what a wonderful, inoffensive church we shall have. A church that nobody could ever take issue with. The fact that it would also be completely irrelevant is a small price to pay...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
We just had an incidence of this in relation to H&A Day(s) and the Not Waving but Drowning private board.
The admins are likely to take an extremely dim view of discussion of Ship's business being carried on outside the Styx, where it belongs, by other means or in other places. Don't attempt it here.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
@ Doc Tor and Ariel - that is a lot to look forward to!! (really helpful tho')
Strikes me that being the middle generation (whilst parents are preserved (not in Aspic)) of a family involves a lot of work as roles shift around a lot.
Fighting off the Belly has already started (somewhat half-heartedly), ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Is the marriage risk connected to being so knackered from everything else that there is little energy for one another?
The career plateau could really impact on ones self-worth.
I should think that at least informally, through relationships, church should be able to support and encourage.
@Late Paul - that sounds really annoying. Being single in church does seem to be hard work. Does it feel different outside of church?
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JJ
SDG
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think it maybe comes down to building as many individual trusting relationships between people as you can, so that when these things strike, you have people with a varied field of expertise(s) to go to.
Seems a rather selfish view of relationships. We have several friends like that who get in touch to say how much they've been missing seeing us and by the way could we look after their partner (who's becoming senile) for a day. Or another rings to ask us to put them up for a night because we live so near to IKEA.
More positively, I'm 64 and I don't really remember my 50s much except that work gets harder to put up with, but for the future:
a) Keep in touch with friends, not to use them later but because being with friends makes you feel good. And accept you have to put up with them being a pain at times. You may be the one who can help - and you may be the pain they have to put up with.
b) Do something fulfilling outside of work/home - when kids leave, work ends or someone close dies you need a reason to get up in the mornings.
c) You don't get wiser as you get older unless you keep learning. (Finished my Maths PhD at 55, hopefully just about to start an MA in English.)
d) Keep fit.
e) Enjoy life.
[ 29. September 2014, 09:44: Message edited by: que sais-je ]
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The first, biggest one, is staying married. If you've managed to make it this far, then the next ten years are when it can all fall apart, often through no active fault of either you or the spouse.
Please explain why the next ten years might be more crucial than the previous ones?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The first, biggest one, is staying married. If you've managed to make it this far, then the next ten years are when it can all fall apart, often through no active fault of either you or the spouse.
Please explain why the next ten years might be more crucial than the previous ones?
I'll try, but this is from personal observation, not empirical evidence.
Some of it is about the kids, in that when they're young, it's all about the kids. When they get to be teenagers, it's less about the kids, It's like surfacing for air after a long dive, and you may not recognise where you are, who you are, or who your spouse is. Or if you do, you may not like that any longer.
Some of it is about the main caregiver, in that they have more time on their hands, and either they can try and stay as involved in their children's lives as before (and get rebuffed, damaging their sense of self), or get involved in something outside of the house, which opens up new vistas that a simply different to what went before.
Some of it is about work, because you start to question what the hell it is you've been doing for the past ten years when it's all been about supporting the family/growing your career. Then you have another 20+ years of labour ahead of you, and then what?
Some of it is about your parents, who when they go, leave you psychologically exposed ("you're next") and vulnerable.
Some of it is about the relationship with your partner. You can bury things for only so long. Then they have to be sorted out, or not, as the case may be.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Thank you for sharing.
Makes sense.
Seems to me if God is still a binding factor in both lives, it helps for future directions and shared values.
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a theological scrapbook
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
@Late Paul - that sounds really annoying. Being single in church does seem to be hard work. Does it feel different outside of church?
It does feel a little different outside church. It still seems like most people my age are partnered but there's more childless-by-choice couples. TBH though part (not all!) of the reason I went back to church again was to meet more people. So as challenging or whatever it is at church at least I know more people there. Outside church is mostly work colleagues.
Doc Tor - just wanted to say your responses are helpful even though I'm not in a similar situation. Thanks.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
@Late Paul - that sounds really annoying. Being single in church does seem to be hard work. Does it feel different outside of church?
It does feel a little different outside church. It still seems like most people my age are partnered but there's more childless-by-choice couples. TBH though part (not all!) of the reason I went back to church again was to meet more people. So as challenging or whatever it is at church at least I know more people there. Outside church is mostly work colleagues.
Doc Tor - just wanted to say your responses are helpful even though I'm not in a similar situation. Thanks.
As a fellow single person, I find childless-by-choice couples to be pretty uncommon in church - I have met some but very very few. It seems to be a bit taboo/not talked about in church for some reason.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Some of it is about the kids, in that when they're young, it's all about the kids. When they get to be teenagers, it's less about the kids, It's like surfacing for air after a long dive, and you may not recognise where you are, who you are, or who your spouse is. Or if you do, you may not like that any longer.
I agree with this. I'm not sure what Mrs C and I used to spend our time doing before we had children, but clearly we had a huge pile of spare time for something, because that time is currently taken up with the kids.
At some point, the kids will all get old enough that they are relatively self-sufficient (whether that means out pursuing their own interests, out at school, at college, or at home, but engaged in some task of their own) and a lot of our time will come back.
I don't know how we'll occupy our time then - we'll see. Personally, I'm just looking forward to the day that tidying the house doesn't feel like a war with the Entropy Monsters.
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
On the topic of spirituality in the second half of life I can really recommend "Falling upward" by Richard Rohr.
I've also greatly valued friendship with people up to 15 years older than me- great role models for what lies ahead who've willnigly shared their wisdom with me.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The first, biggest one, is staying married. If you've managed to make it this far, then the next ten years are when it can all fall apart, often through no active fault of either you or the spouse.
Second, equally large, is the death of your parents. My father in law died five years ago, my own father will die within the next month. It's never going to be easy.
Third major change is your children needing different things from you, and just when you get on really well with them and enjoy interacting with them as adults, they leave home.
Fourthly, the middle-age spread strikes, which means either you have to don the lycra and actively work it off, or you turn into a blob.
I'm struggling with all of those at the moment, and I'm 48. Church is utterly devoid of advice on any of those subjects.
I've got you by just a few years.
Although not so popular today, I find Erik Erikson's adulthood stages of development instructive (he's the one who made the "identiy crisis" popular). "Generativity (versus Stagnation)" is that time when you get on well with the adult children and they need stuff from you, and you feel that they value your guidance and experience, so you pass on a lot of understanding (and money!). It is frightfully quick as you note, maybe 5 years? Though there are glimmers of it in the next stage, which is poignantly titled "Integrity versus Despair".
I think Erikson is right about the polarity in this stage, whereas not so much in the prior one. I had naively thought that the "midlife crisis" was part of the Generativity stage, but it is not it seems, unless I'm having a second, more severe one during my times of despair. This despair is not the same as early life despair when starting out, it is more a realization that hopes are dreams are only partly fulfilled, and some must be abandoned, while the busy work of life is not so necessary. And that some of the goals will never be; I could tell myself when 20 or 30 or 40 that there was still time to achieve some of those things, telling myself half truths.
I used to think those who kept working beyond necessity of providing for day-to-day needs and retirement were nuts, but having enough for both by my early 50s, I have kept working since to give the days meaning. My wife also wants to keep working - in my generation women usually took time from work to have children, thus maybe a decade behind career goals. I think this is still the case for many.
Erikson's stages may be sexist, formed around the understandings of men; I see women in my generation having less of the despair because their social relationships being better developed, whereas men often socialized at work or via shared activities versus talking about anything meaningful. This is one area where church is probably more valuable to me than my wife: connecting me to other men in parallel ages and stages....
As pathetic as this sounds to me, this is not uncommon (I just made it up):
Q: how many middle-aged men does it take to change a light bulb in the church hall?
A: as many as there are available, because they have little else meaningful to do, and church people have to like you or at least pretend.
[ 29. September 2014, 16:45: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Splitting the church into age/stage related groups is another option, but this often gets talked down in many circles as ideally we would be able to learn from one another.
Although I've nothing against groups in church for specific age groups, I've also seen the danger of taking this approach too far. Some of the best experiences I've had are when the church operates like a large family, with old and young learning, socialising and having fun together; sometimes too much splitting can lead to suspicion between the age groups.
The other challenge I've noticed, when concentrating too much on age, is that it causes difficulty when some people who started their family early are classed as 'middle aged' or 'old' when actually they are the same age as parents who happen to have started their family late. There can be often be overlap between the generations, so to categorise into groups too strictly can actually divide people of similar ages.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Do you think that there are particular issues that we confront at various stages of life? If so what would they be? And how does/should Faith and Church interface with them?
From my experience, faith can help people enormously as they reach the last stage of their lives, once their health has started to deteriorate and they look toward their own death.
Holding onto trust in God despite everything that's happening can be inspirational to others, and can bring an extraordinary serenity and graciousness and peace to the one who can do so.
The Church community can do a lot by showing their love for one another in word and deed, all building each other up in faith. It's such a shame when the back-biting and bickering, fighting for position, and selfish interests so evident in secular society are not overpowered by the love for one another as family in discipleship that should be in visible evidence within the Church.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Some of it is about the kids, in that when they're young, it's all about the kids. When they get to be teenagers, it's less about the kids, It's like surfacing for air after a long dive, and you may not recognise where you are, who you are, or who your spouse is. Or if you do, you may not like that any longer.
I agree with this. I'm not sure what Mrs C and I used to spend our time doing before we had children, but clearly we had a huge pile of spare time for something, because that time is currently taken up with the kids.
I am really worried about this, actually. BUT, it is balanced up somewhat by the degree of longing for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
...the day that tidying the house doesn't feel like a war with the Entropy Monsters.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
The house certainly seems eerily silent if both Twanglets are out/away, we've had a few of those "what did we talk about before the kids?" conversations as well.
Is there an entropy monster trap that could be purchased?
@Doc Tor thank you very much for your openness
@Chorister I agree with you about same age/niche groups – they either tend to be a stereotypical cookie cutter approach or risk being over specific. I guess the ideal is to have really strong friendships at a peer level and also with those older and younger than yourself.
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It was a long time ago for me!
The definition of middle age is moving as well; if 70 is the new 50, I'm just 51 which would make me middle-aged. But if I work on the basis of life in the 40's, I think for me it was the decade when I began to take my mortality and fragility more seriously; it was also a time of major change for me in my understanding of Christianity.
People use the phrase mid-life crisis; there is this image of a restless male, growing a ponytail, buying a Harley Davison (or some such), taking up with a much younger partner, trying somehow to "keep young"? A kind of desperate disappointment with the way things turned out, the desire to shed responsibilities which have become irksome.
I didn't go through any of that. I never wanted to "go back". For me the biggest struggles were about going forward, both at work (where I succumbed to a major stress-induced illness) and at church (where my wrestling with the perceived incoherences of Fundamentalism also reached a crisis point). At home, we also had all the fun of the fair with two adolescents at war with one another and, in very different ways, with us. There was a lot going on, and certainly periods when it was all "too much".
More than anything, my wife and I discovered that our relationship was strong and abiding despite the various crises. If that had not been the case, I'm not sure what would have happened to either of us.
That period of my life was the crucible; definitely the most difficult, certainly the one which taught me more than any other time about who I was and what mattered most to me, how misplaced some of my priorities had been. And how much I really loved my wife and children.
So far as my faith was concerned, the time of change was a time of breaking and remaking. A wise Anglican vicar, who was a very good friend through the storm, told me that God is a God of both breaking and remaking. Crises do much to test our images and perceptions of God, to discover how much weight they really hold. I discovered that there was quite a lot which was false and misleading in my perceptions of God; it was a kind of golden calf that I had made out of the fools' gold of the world - not without "help" from the then pretty narrow theology taught in my local congo. That had to be melted down on the crucible, and the dross had to go. What remained was something better, something to build the rest of my life on.
Crises can strike at any time of our lives, not just middle age; I think they do often happen at that time because it's the time when we discover the pressures of the long term. Like me, you may discover that you aren't up to the challenges on your own; you need the help of loving friends and partners, folks who stick by you.
Adrian Plass described his early-middle age crisis not so much as a breakdown (though that was the way he and many others labelled it at the time), but rather more a breakout from a kind of personal prison, whose walls he had helped to build.
Now this sort of story can make you feel very anxious if nothing like this has happened to you yet. And indeed it may not! But if it does, perhaps the above gives you some idea of what the experience may be like. And how it can be both very painful and very valuable.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So far as my faith was concerned, the time of change was a time of breaking and remaking. A wise Anglican vicar, who was a very good friend through the storm, told me that God is a God of both breaking and remaking. Crises do much to test our images and perceptions of God, to discover how much weight they really hold. I discovered that there was quite a lot which was false and misleading in my perceptions of God; it was a kind of golden calf that I had made out of the fools' gold of the world - not without "help" from the then pretty narrow theology taught in my local congo. That had to be melted down on the crucible, and the dross had to go. What remained was something better, something to build the rest of my life on.....
Adrian Plass described his early-middle age crisis not so much as a breakdown (though that was the way he and many others labelled it at the time), but rather more a breakout from a kind of personal prison, whose walls he had helped to build.
The vicar was very wise.
I am not a fan of Plass but he is also wise on this and it echoes my feelings when going through a similar crisis.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Thank you so much those of you posting about middle life. You are filling me with hope. Maybe I'll survive. Maybe we'll survive. Maybe we'll actually come out stronger.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
As someone who turned 52 in August I have to say that I still do not think or feel the way I thought I would ayt 40 let alone 52! I still have a young head.
I often say that I would like to go back to being 19 and this time do it right!
What am I thinking now?
Why did I make some of those decisions?
Why did I not save more money?
I regret some things that it's too late to change.
Rejoice over the things I did right - 3 excellent sons.
I fear the next 15 years before retirement as I start to slow down.
I fear the death of my mother.
I hate the fact that I can't shop at Top Man any more but I REFUSE to shop at Greenwoods. I will NOT be wearing beige slacks or lemon pullovers!
I miss my boys who no longer live at home.#
I have shed many tears over their leaving - and when I take them back to coach stations again, I cry again.
I have tears in my eyes as I write this...
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Thanks Mudfrog. My girls are 9 and 7, and I get worn out by their bickering sometimes - it's good to be reminded to make the most of them.
I'm 43. I've given up a career, in part to look after the kids. I fear how I will feel as they likely go to war with me, and then leave. If I still have any energy, that might be the time to join a functioning congregation, and try to find some good people to work alongside.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
At 65 I find many things are changing.
First is physical. I have arthritis in both my knees so I am finding that is becoming quite limiting. I used to love to hike hither and yon. Now, if faced between a strenuous hike up a hill or a leisurely walk in the lowlands, I will take a leisurely walk. Still will take the hike once in a while but not often.
Regretfully I did not prepare too well for retirement. I would like to stop working, but it is probably not going to happen for another 5 years. Even then there will be a substantial change in my standard of living.
I was forced to officially retire at 62 but am now working at a job that pays only half of what I was making back then. Social security helps as well as a small pension, but I am further in debt than I ever was at 40. Let this be a warning to you who still have a chance.
Dad died five years ago. Mom is still with us. She has congestive heart failure so it will not be too long.
On the other hand there have been some positives. As empty nesters, my wife and I are really enjoying each other. We like to do a lot of things together. Sunday drives are very good. We really enjoy working at our romance.
The kids are getting very well established. Two of them have excellent jobs. A third is struggling, but there does seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel. Next time I see him I will need to work with him about possible outcomes he will be looking at shortly (has to do with a major accident he had while visiting Las Vegas a couple of years ago). Number four is in seminary right now, but I kind of expect him to go on for his PhD in Comparative Religions.
We have two 12 year old granddaughters. It is great to see how they are becoming women of their own right. It is also great to see how our children are passing on how we raised them with their offspring.
Also have a five year old granddaughter and a six month old grandson who are just a joy to be with.
Middle age spread does not have to happen. My wife is at the same weight as when she graduated from high school. On the other hand, I have had to work at controlling my weight. I can say it is harder to get the weight down, but not impossible.
Next five years will be spent at paying down if not all of our debt. Eventual downsizing to a smaller house. We are not sure where that may be. We would like to be closer to one of our kids, but we also enjoy living where we are now.
Travel is on the agenda as well. We went to the Bahamas this summer and thoroughly enjoyed it. We may go to Europe next year for a wedding of a young woman who stayed with us--fingers crossed. Will probably take a Europass to see other people and places we know. Alaska is someplace I have wanted to go to but that may still be down the line a bit.
Can't think beyond five years at this moment in my life. Better to take one day at a time anyway.
In sum, for those of you approaching middle age, do commit yourself to retirement. Actually, I tell 20 somethings it is not too early to think of retirement.
Things will change. Some for the better, but the biggest challenge will be physical changes.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Bless you Mudfrog ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
I miss my Mum and Dad every day.
At 57 I retired early, I found teaching full time too demanding on body and brain. Teaching is a job you start at 7:30am, get home at 5pm and start again with marking and preparation at 7:30pm. Weekends are given over to paper work.
I miss the actual job, but the rest of the nonsense which is connected to it - not at all!
We are very lucky financially as we paid off the mortgage and both have decent pensions, plus a bungalow which we rent out. I do bits of supply teaching for holiday money.
What do I do with my time? I raise Guide dog pups! It's a whole new world of fun - coffee mornings, socials, puppy parties - oh ... and some dog training! I LOVE every minute of it. The Guide Dog people are just like me - enthusiasts with an obsession for all things dog!
When I was seven I old my Mum I wanted to be a dog trainer. She said "Oh no, you won't make a living doing that". So I didn't think of it again. But now I am living my childhood dream!
My sons are both settled with good jobs and lovely partners. I miss them, but would not want them to come back and live - a few days visit now and again is plenty. We skype often, sometimes staying on for hours - I love it, we prop the ipad up and it's like having them in the room.
Spiritually I am content but have far less enthusiasm for God, Church etc. I have a role in Church (Worship co-ordinator) which keeps me going. And I do love the people there very much.
Physically I have started feeling the beginnings of the ageing process. I am fighting it tooth and nail and have a personal trainer who comes and completely does me in twice a week, I have never worked so hard. I have given in to the fact that my looks have gone and simply wear clothes which are comfortable. That took a bit of adjusting - I was a good looking young woman, often called beautiful. I kind of took that for granted, warding off male attention was simply part of life. It felt odd when it stopped, but liberating too.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
As I get closer to 40 I think the avenues no longer open are what I struggle with.
As an oxbridge graduate it seemed the world was my oyster - I could look forwards to a happy propserous life, lots of travel etc etc..
Life never works out quite how you think it will. Life happens, ill health, family, financial changes etc. I haven't quite fitted career wise as I thought I would, and as a parent struggle with wanting to reenter the professional world.
My generation mainly doesn't have materially the same things our parents did with the same income, so expectations are easily not met.
It's strange wondering where it will all go.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Gosh ...
I don't know where to start with this one!
I'm 53 and can relate to a lot of what has been said here - elements of what Mudfrog has written, elements of what Doc Tor has said ...
I think the career thing and self-worth is certainly an issue. I was made redundant 4 years ago and believe you me, very few people want to look at you once you're past 50 ...
I do find that Black Dog can take advantage of that one ... but I'm learning to fend him off.
I haven't got time to respond at length to this thread ... but will have a good think about the spiritual aspects.
One of the good things - more generally - about middle-age is that you find that it is possible to relate to older people well - as Mrs Beaky says - but also to get on really well with teenagers and people in their early 20s ... not that they think you're cool or anything but they do like to talk about the kind of bands you were into when you were their age etc.
I think that single middle-aged people have a hard time generally - and often a hard time in church too for some reason.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
In case folks missed it, Ezekiel Emanual wrote an interesting piece in the Atlantic here. For the most part, I find his view congenial, although I may draw my line a bit further back in time than he does. I am older than he is, so maybe the line is always just over the horizon for us...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
In case folks missed it, Ezekiel Emanual wrote an interesting piece in the Atlantic here. For the most part, I find his view congenial, although I may draw my line a bit further back in time than he does. I am older than he is, so maybe the line is always just over the horizon for us...
There speaks a very priveleged man who has never had a disability in his life!
Many, many people live happy and fulfilled lives with a wide range of physical and mental disabilities.
He could do to break his leg or something to teach him that life isn't hopeless just because you can't climb Kilimanjaro!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
The challenge of middle age for me is living as a single person in his 40s where for most people in my church:
"40s" = married with kids, probably teens.
and
"single" = person in their 20s or younger.
It means that I rarely have both age and stage in common with someone, and I do feel that.
This is my situation too, not just at church, but at work, and in general. I don't know how it is for men, but I've found women often tend to connect over talk about their children (or grandchildren) and they can often view with suspicion a woman who doesn't have or want children. I'm not much good at small talk anyway, so I'm very aware that if I had kids it would be an easy conversation topic and it would be easier for people to warm to me.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There speaks a very priveleged man who has never had a disability in his life!
Many, many people live happy and fulfilled lives with a wide range of physical and mental disabilities.
He could do to break his leg or something to teach him that life isn't hopeless just because you can't climb Kilimanjaro!
Agreed. I have a friend in her 30s who became physically disabled a few years ago, and she always says how frustrating she finds it when people start talking about how terrible it will be when they get old and lose their mobility - she points out that she has lost her mobility, and while it is difficult, she is still going out, making the most of her life and having a good time. Life doesn't end if you are disabled.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Boogie and Fineline, did you actually read the article?
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Boogie and Fineline, did you actually read the article?
Yes!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Yes, I did. Why did you think I hadn't? Although I probably should have quoted Boogie's middle paragraph only in my reply, because I saw nothing in the article to suggest he'd never broken his leg or experienced any sort of disability. I was referring more to his idea that it's not worth living beyond 75, because you'll be living with limited functionity.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
The graph was a bit depressing
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The graph is bullshit. It has no markers on the vertical axis -- what is being measured? What counts as "productivity"? Which people have "high creative potential"? And why should the rest of us care? I don't have "high creative potential" and have doubtless never made any contribution that would register on this guy's graph -- does that mean my life hasn't been at all worth living?
Last year Oliver Sacks wrote about "The Joy of Old Age":
quote:
My father, who lived to 94, often said that the 80s had been one of the most enjoyable decades of his life. He felt, as I begin to feel, not a shrinking but an enlargement of mental life and perspective. One has had a long experience of life, not only one’s own life, but others’, too. One has seen triumphs and tragedies, booms and busts, revolutions and wars, great achievements and deep ambiguities, too. One has seen grand theories rise, only to be toppled by stubborn facts. One is more conscious of transience and, perhaps, of beauty. At 80, one can take a long view and have a vivid, lived sense of history not possible at an earlier age. I can imagine, feel in my bones, what a century is like, which I could not do when I was 40 or 60. I do not think of old age as an ever grimmer time that one must somehow endure and make the best of, but as a time of leisure and freedom, freed from the factitious urgencies of earlier days, free to explore whatever I wish, and to bind the thoughts and feelings of a lifetime together.
I'll take the perspective of someone who's past 75 on whether it's worth it over the perspective of a guy in his 50s who comes off like a jerk. It creeps me out that this guy is a bioethicist; his values sound like complete crap to me.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Definitely full of bullshit. The graph means crap all--since when did winning awards (during one's lifetime!) become a reasonable measure of creativity? All that measures is one's ability to please the award givers.
As for his idea of refusing colonoscopy, flu shots, etc. starting at age 65, he seems to believe that this will ensure a quicker, more comfortable death. Brrrrrrr. He ought to hang out with more dying people.
I hate the restrictions my body places on me as I get older (chronic pain and musculoskeletal problems go with my syndrome, and early), but why the hell should that restrict my creativity? One needn't climb Kilimanjaro to have a good life. If he's afraid of winding up doing crossword puzzles or listening to audiobooks, perhaps he needs to do some creative thinking about other options available to the physically disabled. I mean, sheesh, the man's a writer. Who better ought to be able to handle bad knees etc?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Yes, I did. Why did you think I hadn't?
Because I found the title of the article much more sensationalistic than the article itself. ISTM that his concern is with the medical industry's approach to elder care. There is a real emphasis on prolonging life rather than on quality of life. I painfully recall the fate of my beloved grandfather, who got a pacemaker when he was in his 70s. The man's heart just wouldn't stop beating, and he lived as a vegetable in a nursing home for the better part of a decade before he finally passed on in his mid-90s. This isn't about living with disabilities: it's about dragging out the dying process and pretending that it is about reverence for life. In reality, it appears to be about extracting as much money as possible from people who are unable to stop you from delivering your "service."
Mr. Emanual was clear that he was not trying to foist his choices off on those who wanted everything possible done to keep them breathing (or any of the many views between that and his.) Given how I read the piece (admittedly, my response to the piece was conditioned by having heard a lengthy interview with him on it first), I genuinely wondered whether the visceral responses about people with disabilities was based on anything more than a response to the title. That was why I asked.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
tclune, fair enough. I agree the article was about more than living with disabilities, and I thought he made some good points too, but I guess I didn't like the emphasis on how terrible it is to lose one's functionality, and some of his conclusions seemed to be based on this assumption. I know he wasn't foisting his opinions onto others. It was just the idea that his life wouldn't be worth living if his faculties are diminished - it seemed to me to undermine the value of the lives of people living with disabilities.
But I was also reading with that particular focus in mind, so my reading was conditioned too - I read it after seeing Boogie's post, so had that in mind while reading. And I am a bit sensitive to the idea that a life with disabilities isn't worth living, because I work with children with severe disabilities.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Years ago I read an article that said that only about twenty percent of the elderly spend time in nursing homes before they die. The rest die quite soon after the onset of the ailment that kills them.
I am eighty years old; I live alone and take care of myself. I am careful; I don't get up on stepstools to change lightbulbs, or engage in other behavior which could be dangerous for me.
I think many people have an exaggerated idea of the percentage of elderly who are seriously disabled.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Ariel hits the two I experience most:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Being caught in the middle between your children still needing you to be a parent, and your elderly parents starting to need you to look after them too.
Caring for my aging mom was horrendous-- it put a strain on our finances, our marriage, our careers, our backs, just about everything. It didn't help that we spread our kids out so we still had very young ones at home. It was hard, and left me wishing we could have said good-bye differently. Perhaps it is better in other countries where there is better health care, especially long-term health care, but here in the US it is just such a struggle for survival that it robs you of that time to really talk about what you love and will miss about your parent. There has got to be a better way.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The career plateau. When younger people come in after you, and get promoted above you, and you can get no further. Because of your age, you find it increasingly difficult to get job interviews elsewhere.
This was the one that caught me completely off guard. During my 40s I was a hot commodity (job wise anyway), pursued by employers, got flown out for interviews. Once I hit 50-- that all evaporated, seemingly overnight. I particularly noticed it when I found all the interns I mentored graduating and getting fabulous job offers while I"m still stuck on auto-pilot.
For me that realization led me to a crossroads-- I realized at 57 that I could either just begin a decade long slide into retirement-- or I could go big and take some risks. I've decided to do the latter, and have taken on new areas of responsibility at work outside of my field of expertise. Pushing myself to learn new stuff and new skills that are still uncomfortable for me. I had to make those opportunities happen-- no one was going to hand them to me like they would have 10 or 15 years ago. That alone was a new and risky skill for me-- going after something and asking for what I want.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Years ago I read an article that said that only about twenty percent of the elderly spend time in nursing homes before they die. The rest die quite soon after the onset of the ailment that kills them.
I am eighty years old; I live alone and take care of myself. I am careful; I don't get up on stepstools to change lightbulbs, or engage in other behavior which could be dangerous for me.
I think many people have an exaggerated idea of the percentage of elderly who are seriously disabled.
I agree.
My 91 year old step-min-in-law is the same
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I am eighty years old;
I would not have guessed. I've always imagined you at least 2 decades younger than that.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I cannot recommend the U3A highly enough. You can join when you are still working part time - the ethos is to keep learning new things all through your life, nobody should be 'all washed up' on reaching retirement! Most towns have a group, in the UK at least.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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