Ship of Fools: Why don't Protestants kneel in Church?

Thread: Why don't Protestants kneel in Church? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027806

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

OK. A few do. I exclude those who do it for show as did happen in a chari church I used to attend, where people did it will great brio, and would presumably have welcomed a spotlight.

I mean unobtrusive kneeling? Why don't I?

I think we have here an instance where a communal behaviour, once lost, is harder to bring back. For the few months I went to an RC church I did it without any hesitation, simply because everyone did. And when recently we had a joint choral evensong with the local RC Church, you knew who the RC's were.

It's just that when nobody does it, you do feel self conscious. Like I'm being "ever so holy" being the only one who gets out the prayer cushion. And that's my fault, I know.

But at traditional choral evensong, which I greatly enjoy, the Priest does actually say let us KNEEL to confess our sins. Where upon everyone does their imitation of Rodin's The Thinker.

Is it a sign of a problem? Or just that as the membership gets older, the effect of arthritic knees takes over?

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

There can be any number of reasons, some of which you've mentioned. If you've got an elderly congregation, then there will be physical restrictions.

One of the other physical restrictions might just be the space between the rows of seats/pews. In the Elim church I used to go to, there simply wasn't enough room. It was questionable whether we met fire regulations most Sundays given how we had a growing church in a rather dinky building.

If there isn't a group who regularly kneels then who might be the one to do it first?

If you don't have a tradition of kneeling then you're less likely to have those little cushions that you sometimes find in old, conservative Anglican churches. And if you've got a hard floor, then it might put some people off.

Personally, I'm not a kneeler. I am also not a hand raiser, a flag waver, a speaker in tongues or an instrument player. Each may worship in their own way; mine is mostly inwardly, though I will add a hearty bass to the singing.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
OK. A few do. I exclude those who do it for show as did happen in a chari church I used to attend, where people did it will great brio, and would presumably have welcomed a spotlight.

...It's just that when nobody does it, you do feel self conscious. Like I'm being "ever so holy" being the only one who gets out the prayer cushion. And that's my fault, I know.

Asked & answered.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

I would probably change this to 'why don't American [or whatever country you are from] Protestants kneel in Church?' In Norway, kneeling is very common amongst Protestants.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I think it's a matter of habit. I'm glad we don't do it. In the Lutheran church I attend in Brazil we already do enough standing up and sitting down as it is.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Because that's what those icky Catholics do.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Gout!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

This Protestant (and yes I count myself, an Anglican, as a Protestant and do not want to get back into the black hole of a debate that I never knew existed until the Ship) grew up kneeling. Multiple churches.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Actually, in a previous generation, they did!

The Salvation Army, within in living memory, would all kneel to pray, sit to listen and stand to sing.

I think it went out with hats in church (though we kept them a little longer than other Protestant denominations.

I have visited elderly Salvationists and when we came to my pastoral prayer at the end of the visits, they knelt to pray.

Actually we still quaintly sometimes call our prayer meetings a 'knee drill'

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :

See, I think that traditionally, Mousethief has it, it's part of a Catholic practice and while many Anglicans do (there is a reason for those weird chunky cushions that hang in pews) it is not part of the Protestant tradition because it's part of a sort of ceremony that Protestants just don't do...

Except for those who do, like the Salvation Army, who actually started to do it on their own because they got it from the Bible the same way the Catholics did in the first place.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:

If you don't have a tradition of kneeling then you're less likely to have those little cushions that you sometimes find in old, conservative Anglican churches.

Wait. Only old and (or?) conservative churches have kneelers? News to me. Even the late 60s Protestant chapel at my university had kneelers, as has pretty much every Anglican church I've ever been in (though I'll admit I've spent very little time in hardline evangelical settings).

The Presbyterians out here, on the other hand, are so against kneeling they've designed the pews in such a way that it is physically impossible to kneel. Still not quite used to it!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

In the CofE thirty years ago, everyone knelt, whether they were high low or broad. I think that unless we have a knee problem, we should do still. The Venite does not say,
'O come let us worship and fall down and sit before the Lord our Maker'. Sitting is sloppy and casual.

"Those little cushions" are called hassocks and were universal. Ladies sewing groups used to crochet designs for them. I agree that it is unreasonable to expect people to kneel if we don't provide them with hassocks to kneel on. But we should, and IMHO there's no excuse for not doing.

[ 11. October 2014, 18:30: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

Sipech:

quote:
There can be any number of reasons, some of which you've mentioned. If you've got an elderly congregation, then there will be physical restrictions.

But most do actually kneel to receive communion. And those that don't are indeed elderly or infirm, but it's only about ten at most, out of a congo of 100+.

I do rather think that physical expression of worship is quite important, and where hassocks are provided, as they are in all the churches I go to, it may be a good idea to use them.

Anyhow, I'll start doing it. Maybe I'll post a kneeling selfie?

[Razz]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

I would say one of the fruits of contemporary British* Evangelicalism is a deep suspicion of formal ritual, and kneeling is seen as an example of this.

(Pace Mousethief I don't think this anti-ritualism, in modern Evangelicalism, is a reaction against Catholicism. I think it is a reaction against the Book of Common Prayer and what is perceived as religion by rote, e.g. rote-learning the catechism as a form of preparation for Confirmation.)

* 'British' because that's what I have personal experience of. I don't how how it is elsewhere.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

To expand on the above. I think there is a sort of Evangelical mythos that goes something like this:

In the Olden Days, services consisted of reading set words from the Prayer Book. You might not believe or even understand them, but you read them anyway, because they were What Was In The Book. You wore a particular set of clothes to church, not because there was any theological reason for it, but because That Was Right And Proper. You sang hymns to organ accompaniment, not because the organ particularly expresses the way you feel about God, but because Only Organ Music Belongs In Church.

Then Contemporary Evangelicalism* came along, and showed people that you can talk to God in your own words, and that God doesn't care what clothes you wear, and you can praise Him just as well on drums and guitar as on the organ. And amidst that change, I think kneeling has come to be seen as part of the Bad Old Ways, and implicitly discouraged.

* I'm not sure what you'd call the movement, which started (I think) around the 1970's. It is clearly different from, but akin to, the Evangelicalism of the 1950's that did define itself against Anglo-Catholicism, and which at one point did threaten to split the Church of England over the use of candles and vestments.

[ 11. October 2014, 21:11: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Tangent: Not just ladies used to make hassocks: I once came across one of ++Fisher's sons- by then a retired GP- making one. (He told me that all of the, I think 5, boys sewed, and all but one kept it up into later life: not having sisters they didn't grow up thinking that some things were 'girls' things' to do. Another point to the credit of an Archbishop whom I am increasingly coming to admire.)

[ 11. October 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Isn't standing the proper posture? Nicaea, canon 20 (if I remember correctly), and all that...

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Isn't standing the proper posture? Nicaea, canon 20 (if I remember correctly), and all that...

All of which to show that all of this is very culturally conditioned, including the stuff we think is "traditional"-- which was once a modern invention.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I counted the congregation at church this morning and 75% knelt to pray. Those who didn't appeared to be visitors, elderly/disabled and young families. This would seem to be as expected in my Anglican church. However, I have no problem with people who prefer for any reason not to kneel. in fact, my knees are getting a bit past it.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
and yes I count myself, an Anglican, as a Protestant and do not want to get back into the black hole of a debate that I never knew existed until the Ship

I was about to say something but... well, yes, not the thread for that, LOL.

I'm an Anglican (Episcopalian) and I kneel, but yeah, I'm on the other side of that issue, so I was imagining Baptists not kneeling. I don't know if they do or don't kneel anymore. I kneel at church regardless.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.

I don't kneel to receive communion for the same reason. I'll kneel to God but not to people.

I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.

I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I went to choral evensong at Durham Cathedral in the summer and hardly anyone knelt during the prayers. They were very observant on when to stand and sit, however.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.

I don't kneel to receive communion for the same reason. I'll kneel to God but not to people.

I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.

We are nicely inconsistent in kneeling and standing in prayer. Stand for the collect for purity, all the way through the Kyrie, confession, Gloria, collect for the day and in due course the Creed. Then kneel for the prayers of the people and humble access. At our place, most people stand for the Sursum Corda and Great Thanksgiving - one or 2 kneel after the Benedictus. Like a few more, we kneel for the Lords Prayer and until we go forward for communion, where we kneel returning to a kneeling position until the final hymn.

But we have never for a moment thought that we are kneeling to a person, and most definitely not kneeling to a person when we receive the MBS. I don't understand how, given what you have already said, you consider that you can make an exception for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Posted by Demas (# 24) on :

Everyone should crouch down on their pew and bow their heads like God intended them to.

Posted by Demas (# 24) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.

This may be part of the problem.

..and not all Christians kneeled without ado. Some even refused to take off their hats in the presence of authority, the blaggards!

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

One of the churches I grew up in had pews and hassocks and much kneeling was done. Today I worship at a pair of churches without pews or hassocks and sitting while praying is the norm. Is it as simple as it went out with the pews? If so, how did people get on with changing their habits when the pews went for firewood or wherever they went?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Is it as simple as it went out with the pews?

I have been to several churches that have replaced pews with chairs, and the chairs have had hassocks either hanging from them or on a shelf under them for the use of the person in the row behind.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Pews, chairs - introduced by the devil to fascilitate the hearing of long boring sermons. That's what I reckon anyway. [Biased]

Posted by tomsk (# 15370) on :

The Heathen Crouch...

I think kneeling is a kind of spiritual discipline. Shows respect/sacrifice. I don't do it 'cos it hurts my knees.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Pews, chairs - introduced by the devil to fascilitate the hearing of long boring sermons. That's what I reckon anyway.

Indeed. What did people do before there were pews?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Is it as simple as it went out with the pews?
I have been to several churches that have replaced pews with chairs, and the chairs have had hassocks either hanging from them or on a shelf under them for the use of the person in the row behind.

I've even seen chairs where the kneeler for the row behind is attached to the back legs and is hinged to fold out for use.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I forgot to mention that every Salvation Army building - whether a Corps (church), a men's hostel or our International Headquarters - has a mercy seat used quite frequently. We will always kneel in response to a call to prayer. Sometimes in a public building, a place of prayer will be constructed in a shape of a cross
or they will simply utilise a row of chairs at the foot of the stage.

A drum has often been used in open air services

[ 12. October 2014, 10:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Sorry, the drum prayer is here but this is sadly no longer very common except in places like Africa.

[ 12. October 2014, 10:04: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.

It seems rather petty to deny God the respect you think He deserves, just to protest a key corruption of the modern liturgy. It is highly unlikely that anybody else would assume that your are kneeling before the "presider" rather than God, including the "presider" himself.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel to receive communion for the same reason. I'll kneel to God but not to people.

If you believe in the real presence, then receiving God in body and blood is just about the most opportune moment for kneeling, given that you will never be closer to Him physically. Again, it seems very strange that you would hesitate just because practically speaking a human has to carry God to you and give Him to you. It seems like a complete loss of perspective to me to focus on that.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

That makes no sense whatsoever. What could possibly be different about these days which changes the principles which you have concerning kneeling before God and men? The only possible answer I can come up with is that lots of other people will be kneeling. Thus the true principle behind all of this then seems to be: peer pressure.

That by the way is a completely legitimate principle if couched in terms of community and liturgy. Personally, I don't worry about any of this much, and simply follow the locally "done thing". Thus in some ways I behave rather differently in the ordinary and extraordinary (Tridentine) masses, respectively. Though there is plenty of kneeling in both. Anyway, I see no point in going on about principles of respect for God and man if in the end I'm really simply doing what everybody else is doing. And that just is my intention when attending a communal liturgy (unless the local people do something expressly against the will of the even larger community of the global church).

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.

Have you tried this in practice? Or is this just greener grass in the neighbour's garden? The Orthodox who do this seem to drag things out over hours. I reckon it has to be a truly riveting performance up front to not have my thought turn to finding a place for sitting down or leaning against after about 15 minutes...

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

But we have never for a moment thought that we are kneeling to a person, and most definitely not kneeling to a person when we receive the MBS.

Understood and accepted. I don't think less or more of people that kneel. Just different theologies.

I remember an evangelical friend of mine lining up next to me to process into the cathedral during a large diocesan service. The instructions from the Precentor were "acknowledge the altar or not, as is your custom". We had to approach in pairs and acknowledge the altar ( or not ) then split to the south and north naves to be seated.

He turned to me and said " Do you worship furniture"? I burst out laughing. He was referring to acknowledging the altar. [Big Grin]

But of course he didn't mean that - just different theologies.

As it turns out, I don't mind worshipping furniture. Symbolises bowing to God to me - so don't worry, I get where you're coming from.

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

I don't understand how, given what you have already said, you consider that you can make an exception for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Kneeling on those days is a penitential act for me. I recognise I am a sinner and I recognise my fallen humanity contributed to Christ's crucifixion. That overrides my dislike of subservience to people (the presider and crew).

I suppose that dislike is part of the "priesthood of all believers" gig and is important to prots.

As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I do not worship the furniture either, but I do reverence the table at which the supper He instituted is held. That does not depend upon any particular Eucharistic theology.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

I cross posted with you Ingo, but I think a number of your questions were answered by what I said to Gee D.

I'll pick up a few points however.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.
It seems rather petty to deny God the respect you think He deserves, just to protest a key corruption of the modern liturgy.

God knows precisely what is in my heart. Kneeling is relevant only for me, not God. And kneeling CAN be interpreted as subservience to the people.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
That makes no sense whatsoever. What could possibly be different about these days which changes the principles which you have concerning kneeling before God and men? The only possible answer I can come up with is that lots of other people will be kneeling. Thus the true principle behind all of this then seems to be: peer pressure..

I've explained this above but just for the record, the practice at my diocesan Cathedral is about half/half in terms of kneeling or not for communion, about 5% kneel for intercessory prayer ( unless there is an ordination - in which case everyone does during the invocation of the Spirit (Veni Creator) - but the Archbishop kneels too and faces the high altar).

In the local parishes I have been a part of altar rails have been mostly removed so standing for communion is normal.

Our prayer book states worship practises may be changed to suit local practises unless they directly contravene scripture. ( Just saying in terms of what you said about it's okay to do what is locally done as an act of community).

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
Have you tried this in practice? Or is this just greener grass in the neighbour's garden? The Orthodox who do this seem to drag things out over hours. I reckon it has to be a truly riveting performance up front to not have my thought turn to finding a place for sitting down or leaning against after about 15 minutes...

If I'm serving at the sanctuary at the Cathedral, we stand to pray during intercessions. That's primarily what I was referring to.

Others usually sit or kneel. But Anglicans are up and down a lot of the time during our services but certainly not as up as the Orthodox. OTOH, I hear you're allowed to go out for smoke breaks during an Orthodox service because they go for hours. [Big Grin]

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Kneeling on those days is a penitential act for me. I recognise I am a sinner and I recognise my fallen humanity contributed to Christ's crucifixion. That overrides my dislike of subservience to people (the presider and crew).

There's nothing that stops you from kneeling at home in prayer on those days, or indeed on any day, as penitence. You are performing a public act when you do this in Church instead. So at a minimum this is about demonstrating to others that you are penitent, and it is this that you find more important than that others might think that you are subservient to "the presider and crew".

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.

Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Sometimes I feel that I'd like to do something physical to echo what I feel in my heart. Once or twice I've even thought about crossing myself.

We shouldn't be so 'spiritual' so as to think that only what goes on internally is important and that outward action is wrong or irrelevant.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I do not worship the furniture either, but I do reverence the table at which the supper He instituted is held. .

I've never heard that one.

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That does not depend upon any particular Eucharistic theology.

I think it does. Some people explain acknowledging the altar as referring to bowing to the reserved sacrament (symbolising God).

For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Kneeling on those days is a penitential act for me. I recognise I am a sinner and I recognise my fallen humanity contributed to Christ's crucifixion. That overrides my dislike of subservience to people (the presider and crew).
There's nothing that stops you from kneeling at home in prayer on those days, or indeed on any day, as penitence.

Yes there is. I'm not big on worm theology. Christ is risen. We are beloved and justified. I do not need to grovel.

Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are different. They remember our fallenness, not our victory in Christ.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.
Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...

But of course you'd say that. You're a fundie Roman Catholic.

Posted by fullgospel (# 18233) on :

I think kneeling can be a wonderful thing to do in church and at home.

Years ago, an elderly anglo-catholic (as it happens) deaconess advised me to begin each day, by kneeling by the bed, with duvet pulled over shoulders if necessary in winter, and say something like, " dear God, here i am I give myself to you, please use me today."

Wonderful advise, and from her heart.

I would not willingly sit during the eucharistic prayer and find kneeling very devotional - knees permitting now- but standing is ok too, for me.

I have noticed that many people where I am, kneel at the beginning of Exposition and then sit until the closing benediction. Including younger people.

Sometimes i go to (public) mass, at a hospice which also has a convent attached with many very elderly nuns. There, there are no kneelers of any description available, and everyone present sits during the eucharistic prayer, the sisters receive in their wheel-chairs or seats; and the more able bodied go up for Communion, and received standing as is customary in UK. I felt resistant to sitting, but accepted it on the 'when in Rome' (sic) principle ! The atmosphere of devotion is palpable which makes a big difference.

Btw It is the only place I know / go, where holy communion is always given / offered in one kind.

I have warm memories of the Mercy Seat at a childhood SA citadel. [Angel]

I think adaptability and the art of the possible, and personal preferences are also important, in the mix of worship and mission.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I've never heard of, would not have thought of and am puzzled by, the suggestion that there's something wrong with kneeling because it's kneeling to the person presiding. With all due respect, that seems to me just plain odd/wrong.

Familiar old words from the old prayer book - which for us is still authoritative even if we are using Common Worship,

quote:
"Draw near with faith, and take this holy Sacrament to your comfort; and make your humble confession to Almighty God, meekly kneeling upon your knees."

As it happens, I like the modern practice - actually ancient - of also standing to pray, particularly for the Eucharistic Prayer. I'm happy with standing to receive, especially if theres no rail. It isn't standing I'm critical of. It's sitting. Sitting is what one does to listen. All too often, though, one has no option. Either there are only chairs or there is nothing to kneel on.

Posture matters. It speaks of what is in the heart and shapes the heart. I was brought up that one knelt to pray, at one's bedside or in church, and especially in church, I'd rather I wasn't expected to sit, particularly as a time will come when physically I will have no option. But for now, it feels a bit like lounging in Zion, and it's prevalence and acceptance feels a bit like an assumption that that's OK.

And I don't think one becomes the spiritual equivalent of UKIP by thinking or saying this.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.

Not Americans. It's a bit of a "thing" for us.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Go on, Mudfrog, cross yourself ... you know you want to ...

[Biased]

More seriously, it's something I've done privately for some time now and find it helpful. The wierd thing is, though, that I feel very self-conscious doing it publicly unless I'm visiting an Orthodox service.

My wife once saw me doing it surreptitiously in a low-church Anglican service and was aghast ...

I don't see how it's any different to raising one's hands 'changing a light-bulb' style as is the custom in some charismatic and charismatic-lite churches or any other gesture one might make in the context of worship.

We all have our postures and expressions. Even the sober, Presbyterian fixed frown is part and parcel of the rich world of liturgical gesture ... [Big Grin]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Cliffdweller - yes, that's where it all started going wrong for you ... [Big Grin]

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Where there is a difference of opinion about kneeling vs not kneeling, it can't be divided along purely Catholic/Protestant lines alone. I grew up in the Seventh-day Adventist church, which is about as stringently anti-Catholic as you can get, and, particularly in its more conservative fringes, deeply suspicious of anything that carries even the faintest tinge of "popery." (Our denominational press recently published a book titled -- and I wish I was kidding here -- "The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer.")

But Adventist always kneel in prayer, excepting only those who are infirm and unable -- in fact, the call to prayer in my home church for many years included the line, "Wherever possible let us all kneel for prayer," a tacit acknolwedgement that it might not be possible for some but if you could bend your knees you had better do so.

And, in fact, the more conservative, the more likely to kneel. In recent years there has been a strand of ultraconservative looniness in fringe Adventism which insists that you must kneel for EVERY prayer, even something as simple as a grace before meals or a short invocation to open a service. Those who follow this particular strand of extreme devoutness (probably the same people who bought copies of "The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer" now that I come to think of it) can easily be spotted if they are on the platform leading out during a service, because when leading any short prayer for which the preacher or other speaker would normally stay standing, they will ostentatiously drop to their knees (requiring the sound person to put a kneeling-height microphone in place just to accommodate them).

All of which arcane detail I offer up just to illustrate that a passion for kneeling can definitely go hand-in-hand with an aversion to Catholicism and ritual.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Unless the pews have gone since I've been, the conservative evangelical Anglican churches in the town I used to live in all have hassocks in the pews. IME there is often not enough room left between pews for kneeling - RC churches seem to have more space between pews, but then of course have in-built kneelers too which helps. I am all for kneeling in church though I myself struggle to do so physically. I would prefer to kneel but can't, and the same is the case for receiving the Eucharist.

Worth remembering that not all disability is obvious, by the way - you don't have to have a wheelchair or crutches to be disabled, and someone may look fit and healthy but in reality is not.

I find the RC standing for intercessions very odd I must confess - not for any deep theological reason but sitting to learn, standing to declare (inc singing) and kneeling to pray just seems much more logical to me.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm not big on worm theology. Christ is risen. We are beloved and justified. I do not need to grovel.

If you don't understand that you are much less than a worm as compared to God, then you don't really understand what it means that Christ incarnated, died and rose as one of us. As for the need to "grovel", that's more applied human psychology than anything else, really. If you start believing in the "good buddy God", which I hear preached in RC churches as much as anywhere incidentally, then you will inevitably end up with the "good buddy" and not with "God". That's how human minds work. What you call "grovelling" is little more than crawling a little back up that slippery slope which leads from the Almighty to a service godlet.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But of course you'd say that. You're a fundie Roman Catholic.

Let's hope so!

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

If a posture moves you positively toward God, please do it. If is does not, don't.

However, if you are with a group or in a church where it isn't done, regardless of the presence of kneelers, don't. Lest you resemble that loud praying man in the NT. Better to not stand out like that.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

The early fathers forbade kneeling on Sundays as feats of the resurrection.

I don't kneel because i follow modern catholic usage and because arthritis makes bobbing up and down quite painful.

But i love kneeling for Benediction.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...

Nice quote - although what you know may not be what others understand or believe.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Hmmm ... an RC fundie or an RC Pharisee?

[Razz]

(I'll get me coat)

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

On a more serious note - I've noticed that most Anglicans these days sit to pray. This feels odd to me these days ... I'd rather stand or kneel.

Standing feels 'right' to me, but perhaps I've been knocking around with the Orthodox too much.

What doesn't feel right to be is this sitting and bending down between the pews thing ... it's neither one thing or another.

I don't really have any objections, I hasten to add, with whatever posture anyone adopts to pray - Baptists, Methodists, RCs, Anglicans, Orthodox or whoever else ... but it does feel odd to me to sit during times of prayer. In my own personal devotions I tend to stand ... although I will, of course, say 'arrow prayers' in any posture - sitting or whatever else.

Not that I do enough praying, nor have I yet to cultivate an 'attitude of prayer' ... I've not even started.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On a more serious note - I've noticed that most Anglicans these days sit to pray. This feels odd to me these days ... I'd rather stand or kneel.

It's probably due to (a) people are taller today, so find it harder to kneel in the restricted space of a pew; (b) church-goers are, on average, older and thus less physically flexible (arthritis rules OK);(c) society has become less formal and the posture reflects this; or (d) changes in liturgical language have prompted (or permitted) changes in liturgical position.

Or all four.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On a more serious note - I've noticed that most Anglicans these days sit to pray. This feels odd to me these days ... I'd rather stand or kneel.

Part of that is just a casualisation of everything isn't it? Along with not dressing in ones Sunday Best, and the vicar preaching with his hands in the pocket of his fleece.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Who do you mean by 'Protestants'?

If CofE figure in your calculations I'm not sure where you've been going to church: I've been CofE all my life and can't recall any of the churches I've attended regularly being full of people sitting for prayer.

IME if people don't kneel for prayer its either because they're non-conformist or because they have issues with mobility.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I go to Evensong these days, and even though the liturgy makes references to kneeling it looks as though the majority just sit.

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

no prophet . . .

quote:
If a posture moves you positively toward God, please do it. If is does not, don't.

Trouble is, I'm not so sure how to find out. How would you evaluate whether a posture/practice moved you toward God?

My thoughts on kneeling are admittedly based on my experience at Choral Evensong where we are actually bidden to kneel but don't. So it's not just an absence of kneeling but a refusal to do it even after having been bidden.

I agree, btw, that this is not general, and I think it is because the BCP is being used.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.
Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...

Cruelty masquerading as witty phrasing.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

The vast majority of CoE congregations I've encountered/been a part of have sat for prayer.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Cruelty masquerading as witty phrasing.

That looks suspiciously like a personal attack masquerading as a meta-comment. Make it clear henceforth whether you are engaging with the issue or attacking the person, and if the latter, as for all posters, take it to Hell.

/hosting

[ 12. October 2014, 20:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

One reason might be the emphasis away from penitence in modern liturgies towards thanksgiving, for which the appropriate posture is standing. Sometimes, as in the church I attended today, the action of the liturgy invites people to move from place to place (around the font for the penitential rite; around the ambo for the liturgy of the Word; around the altar for the eucharist.

The Community of the Resurrection might count as 'protestant' in some eyes, but since the re-ordering of their church the brethren and guests either sit or stand throughout the eucharist and offices.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I do not worship the furniture either, but I do reverence the table at which the supper He instituted is held. .
I've never heard that one.

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That does not depend upon any particular Eucharistic theology.
I think it does. Some people explain acknowledging the altar as referring to bowing to the reserved sacrament (symbolising God).

For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God.

Perhaps you should move around your diocese more and speak to people from a range of backgrounds. An acknowledgment is common here across a range of churchmanship, including the churches I'd describe as traditional Sydney low church Prayer Book.

I can't remember the present arrangements at CCSL, but here tabernacles are not in use and aumbries are not behind the main altar. I find a real contradiction between your last paragraph and what you said in the original post. Are you able to explain more?

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

I'm a cradle Episcopalian in the USA--grew up with the 1928 BCP and the 1940 Hymnal, in a church where there was a basket of mantillas at the door in case a woman forgot to wear a hat. There was LOTS of kneeling then.

50 years later, I still kneel, and my knees are crap. It's an expression of awe and devotion to God, and I will do it as long as I am physically able.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

I can't remember the present arrangements at CCSL, but here tabernacles are not in use and aumbries are not behind the main altar. I find a real contradiction between your last paragraph and what you said in the original post. Are you able to explain more?

Sure. But not quite sure where the contradiction is...? Do I have to kneel to acknowledge the power and beauty of what we do together in church?

There is an interesting history of kneeling in the church here.

My feeling that kneeling is a penitential act seems to be not without foundation in the early church.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

IME if people don't kneel for prayer its either because they're non-conformist

This I didn't know. Seems to be true that nonconformists did not kneel at the Eucharist. A book on the history of Puritans says similar things but dates it back to ancient practise.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
However, if you are with a group or in a church where it isn't done, regardless of the presence of kneelers, don't. Lest you resemble that loud praying man in the NT. Better to not stand out like that.

I've wrestled with this, and I have made my peace with kneeling (or leaning forward depending on options available) whether other people do or not. I'm not doing it to be seen by them.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
Not Americans. It's a bit of a "thing" for us.

Well, not most Americans. For me kneeling before someone I am subordinate/subject to was something I realized my faith did not forbid even though it was politically heretical by US standards. I suspect it is the same for others in that community even if they don't share my religious faith.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Pews, chairs - introduced by the devil to facilitate the hearing of long boring sermons. That's what I reckon anyway.
Indeed. What did people do before there were pews?

They STOOD, as God intended.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
Have you tried this in practice? Or is this just greener grass in the neighbour's garden? The Orthodox who do this seem to drag things out over hours.

No IngoB post about worship is complete without a swipe at the Orthodox.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
Not Americans. It's a bit of a "thing" for us.

But Evensong, to whom this was addressed, is not an American.

And Americans worship a fucking FLAG. I'd rather kneel to a monarch than pray to a flag.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
My feeling that kneeling is a penitential act seems to be not without foundation in the early church.

I fail to see that we are only to be penitential on Ash Wednesday and Holy Friday. Do we not pray "forgive us our trespasses"? Is there no general confession during the mass/liturgy? Are we not meant to confess our sins, and that more often than those 2 days of the year?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Evensong, I see a real inconsistency between you comments about acknowledging the altar and then your comment that "For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God." The first you decry as simply reverencing a piece of furniture; the second you suggest is correct.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

It's getting a bit tetchy and personal hereabouts and there's a certain amount of pissed-offness showing. I'll extend Eutychus' Host post upstream to a general nudge in the right direction. Remember what Hell is for, please. Feel free to criticise posts strongly of course, but remember there's a line.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Evensong, I see a real inconsistency between you comments about acknowledging the altar and then your comment that "For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God." The first you decry as simply reverencing a piece of furniture; the second you suggest is correct.

The person that asked if I worshipped furniture was not me, but a friend of mine asking me. I don't believe those that acknowledge the altar are worshipping furniture. Neither did he really. Was just having a dig at those of us higher up the candle. I personally thought it was hilarious!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Many years ago I worked in West Africa. Every Monday morning missionaries and national staff held a prayer meeting. The prayers were arranged in a circle and we all (about 20 people) knelt in front of them when we prayed.

Anyone peeking in through the windows could well have thought we were chair-worshippers!

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I remember an elderly priest of this diocese describing his deanery chapter meetings when he was a curate. They would sit to discuss on comfortable sofas and armchairs, then when it came to the prayer time they would turn round and kneel on the floor, heads in the cushions and bums in the air! A reaction to that sort of thing was inevitable.

Kneeling for personal prayer can be a very helpful discipline. But public worship is not personal - well, not private - prayer and kneeling tends to draw metaphorical curtains around ourselves. There could well be moments in the liturgy when kneeling (true kneeling, not the squat which fools nobody, least of all God) is appropriate, but that is what they are, moments. Who would want to go back to the old low mass when you knelt for everything except the gospel and creed?

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
However, if you are with a group or in a church where it isn't done, regardless of the presence of kneelers, don't. Lest you resemble that loud praying man in the NT. Better to not stand out like that.

I have serious nerve damage in my feet, while my knees are in excellent shape. Kneeling takes much less out of me than standing.

I hope my fellow-worshipers are more intent on their own devotions than my physical posture.

Moo

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The Community of the Resurrection might count as 'protestant' in some eyes, but since the re-ordering of their church the brethren and guests either sit or stand throughout the eucharist and offices.

Not quite the case in the current pattern: for the offices we sit for the psalms, but stand for just about everything else; for mass we sit for the epistle and any sermon and otherwise stand. Kneeling is only the posture for the confession prior to Compline and for those whose custom it is to receive the Holy Communion (though there is no rail). And for those of the brethern who are less mobile than they once were, sitting throughout is the usual posture.

And my view? Well, the chair is useful - I sometimes need somewhere to put the office book down!

Tom (Current Mirfield Student)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

The church I grew up in only stood up for the opening and closing hymn, the rest was all sitting. How I long back to that. The Lutheran church I attend here in Brazil has a lot of standing up and sitting down. It distracts me endlessly. When I'm there, I'm not going to the gym.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

At the very least, they can be persuaded that the bodily position makes no difference to their prayers; for they constantly forget, what you must always remember, that they are animals and that whatever their bodies do affects their souls. --Screwtape

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The Lutheran church I attend here in Brazil has a lot of standing up and sitting down. It distracts me endlessly. When I'm there, I'm not going to the gym.

Liturgical calisthenics.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

[Snore]

This thread again. Since I'm not Anglican and never was, I don't have this hang-up about kneeling or not. I've never kneeled in church and no church I have ever been a member of has had kneelers fitted. I even sit to hear the Gospel. When we have the ecumenical services in our town at Christmas and Good Friday, the Anglican rector often asks us to stand. And everyone knows whoever is at the lectern calls the shots.

And since I'm comfortable with my liturgical and ecclesiological identity, I'm not bothered in the least by not kneeling.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I'm not sure not kneeling is particularly a Protestant thing? I know quite a few Prod churches where kneeling is commonplace. However, I think it could be said that the practice isn't so uniform as in 'everyone' does it. So where kneeling does take place, some people do it and some don't.

I noticed - with some sadness - that few, if any, people in my old home church where kneeling was common, no longer do it, and I think this is because since the arrival of the 'new' pews there simply isn't enough space to get down there and onto a hassock. And the hassocks are so pretty and comfortable compared to the thin flat rubbery mats we used to use! Many of the Irish CofI churches I visited a good proportion of folk would kneel - though not all. The old fashioned pews seemed to allow plenty of space. But I noticed in the CofE churches I knew of, it was not a thing generally done, except perhaps by certain congregations (trad services eg). Again, partly I believe because the provision wasn't good and partly through simple disuse of the custom.

Funnily enough, I always think it's a little odd NOT to kneel to receive communion which is almost (but not entirely) the universal Anglican practice I've come across. I know some Protestants who won't even take their communion if they can't kneel at the rail 'properly'! Which is very sad, of course.

I do understand a little what Evensong means about the focus of the kneeling being the president, in that I've attended many services where it's the centrally-placed music group who often appears to be the sole recipients of everybody's worship efforts. But it's a small effort to recall that it's God being worshipped; and if one's theology and intention is reasonably secure there surely can be little possibility of a rational person being too distracted by feelings of 'worshipping' the wrong Object!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

As a British Methodist I've kneeled at the altar to take communion, but not all Methodist churches have this practice. Kneeling is highly uncommon at any other time during normal worship, and few Methodist churches provide kneelers.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Just a bit of anecdote. I have been to hear an organ recital at First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas years ago. Of all the surprising weirdness, they had kneelers in the pews of this old downtown battleship. No idea whether they were in some actual use then, or whether they even still exist today, but they must have been installed for a reason and used on some occasions at some point in that congregation's history.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

i agree that Protestants don't generally kneel, but in the Lutheran church worship material, at least, they allow for kneeling during prayer, confesssion, etc. And many Lurheran churches have paddded kneelers. It's just that the congregants have the choice of using them or standing, as the Spirit moves them.

Not married to any position, although kneeling is comfy to me, but based on my observations, if a church governing body is going to introduce kneelers to a congregation if kneeler virgins, tney should excercise patience and tolerance with the children ( and occasional adults) who forget themselves and pit their feet on the kneelers when not in use. Screaming "THAT'S NOT A FOOTREST! " at baffled five year olds is so not the look.

Let's just say my people had transition issues.

[ 13. October 2014, 20:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Might it be a sign of declining religious fervour?

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Or an aging church population?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

With the removal of pews there's nowhere to hang kneelers. Modern church chairs could be fitted with hooks, but I've only ever seen very old chairs of this type; the modern church chair has nowhere to put a kneeler.

The gap between each row of chairs is relatively narrow anyway, and people are taller and plumper than they used to be.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

As my six-year old discovered, they are somewhat helpful if you are trying to see the action going on up front. Especially if your dad doesn't really want you standing on the pew.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
With the removal of pews there's nowhere to hang kneelers. Modern church chairs could be fitted with hooks, but I've only ever seen very old chairs of this type; the modern church chair has nowhere to put a kneeler.

The gap between each row of chairs is relatively narrow anyway, and people are taller and plumper than they used to be.

I have seen modern single occupant church chairs with kneelers kind of built in, but I imagine refitting a church with a ton of these would cost a mint.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

I even sit to hear the Gospel.

*GASP*

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Hehehe. Liturgically shocked an Oz Anglican. +10 Eccles Points to me. [Big Grin]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

We were once attending a Chapel service at school (Uniting Church) when I was asked to read the Gospel - why, I don't know at all save for my mellifluous voice and distinguished demeanour. I invited the congregation to stand with me while I acclaimed and read the Gospel. And they did! I used the standard APBA acclamation, choosing a suitable passage for the sentence, and at the end, one or 2 even said "Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ"!

Posted by viatrix (# 18249) on :

Perhaps its because, given the age of so many congregants these days, they're all like me, with artificial knees - with which kneeling becomes agony. Be kind and forgiving of them please.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

You'll not be singing this hymn, then.

I do sympathise: Mrs. Trainfan has bad arthritis in her knees (a 3rd arthroscopy is scheduled for December).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
With the removal of pews there's nowhere to hang kneelers. Modern church chairs could be fitted with hooks, but I've only ever seen very old chairs of this type; the modern church chair has nowhere to put a kneeler.

The gap between each row of chairs is relatively narrow anyway, and people are taller and plumper than they used to be.

Well yes, but in most churches there are fewer people attending than there used to be so you might be able to space the rows out more if you really wanted to.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You'll not be singing this hymn, then.

...

You could always read Isaiah 35:3 instead.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It occurs to me that I've seen people in Pentecostal churches kneeling during times of private prayer. They kneel facing their own chairs or remain seated, or stand. If they were all following a set liturgy at the same time then this freedom of position would be less likely, I imagine.

I also have vague memories of being in a church somewhere where there was a big box of cushions near the entrance. If you were planning on kneeling you'd just pick one out, then replace it at the end of the service. This is a good idea, as it prevents the need for specially adapted chairs.

However, despite being a one-time lay steward I've never heard any conversation in church, either among the laity or the clergy, about whether more kneeling would be a good idea. If people want it, they should say so in church meetings, and in discussion with church leaders.

Me personally, I tend to associate kneeling with an idealised form of domestic prayer (due to references in paintings, hymns and stories, I suppose), but I've never considered exactly how it's better than praying in any other position. Muslims look impressive as they kneel in multitudes with their heads touching the ground. But Christians have no particular obligation to kneel for worship.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

in the Orthodox Church there is a general (although not always followed, or even apparently (see link below) universally agreed upon) rule that one does not kneel on Sunday (the day of Resurrection, or "little Pascha". There is definitely a rule against kneeling during the period right after Pascha (Easter) (or at least that's what I was taught.. again, seems there is some debate per the link below). Since most people only attend church services on Sunday, they rarely kneel. there are exceptions (the kneeling service on Pentecost). But services during most of the year which are held on other days of the week do include a lot of kneeling.. and we (mostly) don't have pews or those cushion thingies.. we just kneel on the floor. which can be hard on the knees.. particularly on, say, Holy Thursday, when you kneel during the "12 Gospel readings" (a three hour or longer service) although not through all of it, just the actual Gospel readings. It's not the kneeling that gets me.. it's the getting up and/or down!

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays.html

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You'll not be singing this hymn, then.

...
You could always read Isaiah 35:3 instead.

Highly appropriate, especially as we've just come back from an Outpatient appointment at the Hospital.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

IME if people don't kneel for prayer its either because they're non-conformist
This I didn't know. Seems to be true that nonconformists did not kneel at the Eucharist.

So called "non conformists" generally sit to receive the Eucharist.

Since non conformists don't believe in the real presence, then there's nothing to reverence by kneeling. What most of us do believe is that in the sacrament of communion "something" happens - thus respect is given as we sit in companionable silence and prayer as we receive the elements of bread and wine.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... thus respect is given as we sit in companionable silence and prayer as we receive the elements of bread and wine.

That may not involve kneeling but it sounds like reverence to me.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

IME if people don't kneel for prayer its either because they're non-conformist
This I didn't know. Seems to be true that nonconformists did not kneel at the Eucharist.
So called "non conformists" generally sit to receive the Eucharist.

Since non conformists don't believe in the real presence, then there's nothing to reverence by kneeling. What most of us do believe is that in the sacrament of communion "something" happens - thus respect is given as we sit in companionable silence and prayer as we receive the elements of bread and wine.

Methodists kneel

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

However, I know of Methodist churches where people just stand in a semi-circle while the minister and assistant come round with the bread and wine.

Some churches don't have an altar as such, just a space with a pulpit. Kneeling would be fairly awkward.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

*Some* Methodists kneel.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
However, I know of Methodist churches where people just stand in a semi-circle while the minister and assistant come round with the bread and wine.

Some churches don't have an altar as such, just a space with a pulpit. Kneeling would be fairly awkward.

And fair to say that a number of Anglican churches do this, too, for various reasons. Again, custom/practice seems to be the decider in a lot of places rather than denomination or even theology.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

At the fairly A-C church Evangeline and Lothlorien attended, the congregation used form a circle around the altar for distribution of the elements. A nice touch but only practical with a fairly small congregation. We have ourselves been in small country churches where the semi-circle/quadrant has been used to great effect.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

There's aa (fairly A-C) church in Cardiff which does this- everyone stands and lines the walls for the administration of the elements. IIRC it isn't a terribly small congregation, at least by local standards

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0