Ship of Fools: When things go pear-shaped

Thread: When things go pear-shaped Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

We had our Advent Lessons and carols tonight in our little church by the cow fields. It was quite well attended (perhaps 140 including the choir?, certainly not bad for a parish like ours). The order of service was, I though, appropriately planned and the choir sang at their very best (which isn't cathedral standard but is still quite pleasant to listen to). The lessons were all read clearly.

So far, so good.

The service as a whole, though, verged on disaster film territory. The only way I can explain is through a sort of mock MW report.

Denomination Church of England.
The building Undistinguished Medieval barn, built mostly in the 14th century, badly scarred in the English Civil War and subject to various ham-handed restorations at the hands of Georgians, Victorians, and finally 1950s modernists. A few interesting furnishings, including some very fine Victorian glass, but over all a bit ugly.

The church: The church has daily services, active children's programs, several social outreach programs, and various activities aimed at promoting a sense of common life through liturgy, education, charitable works, and social activities.

The neighbourhood
Residential houses, giving way to some cow pastures by the river. The parish is about 2/3s inner suburban residential developments with the rest being rural.

The cast: The vicar, the Rev'd XX, assisted by his assistant curate. A NSM licensed to the church read a lesson but did not otherwise function liturgically. Lay participation came in the form of three lectors, and four servers.

What was the name of the service?
A service for Advent.

How full was the building?
About 4/5s full, with a little over 100 in the pews (not counting the cast). There was a reasonably good selection of ages, from children to the very elderly. Perhaps a quarter of the congregation were between the ages of 18 and 40.

Did anyone welcome you personally?
Three sidesmen smiled nervously at me and handed me as service sheet and candle as the desperately faffed about in the back. It was clear that there weren't enough service sheets and the candles hadn't been put in their cardboard holders beforehand, which explained the general atmosphere of chaos in the back of the church.

Was your pew comfortable?
Standard Victorian wooden pew. It was certainly adequate. The hassock, though, was too thin and hard to be comfortable.

How would you describe the pre-service atmosphere? Utterly shambolic on the part of the sidesmen, with some reasonable attempt at reverence on the part of those in the pews. There was no monastic silence, but neither was it being treated totally as a social occasion. Just before the service began, the electric lights were turned off.

What were the exact opening words of the service?
'I look from afar: And lo, I see the power of God coming, and a cloud covering the whole earth.' These words, from the Advent Matin Responsory were sung by the choir without introduction. The first spoken words were 'It is time for us to wake out of sleep, for deliverance is nearer to us now than it was when first we believed', from the third of the Advent bidding prayers commended by 'Common Worship: Times and Seasons'. This was followed by the BCP Advent Collect and the 'Our Father'.

What books did the congregation use during the service?
A bespoke service leaflet. The construction was a bit flimsy, but at least the typography was appropriate (Garamond 12, I think).

What musical instruments were played?
A small (two manual) but reasonably constructed pipe organ. This supported congregational singing, and played a Bach voluntary. There was also surpliced choir of about 35 voices. A grand piano sat to one side but was (mercifully) not used.

Did anything distract you? Oh, good God, yes! The lights went out at one point for no apparent reason, and there was some fumbling around before they came on. One of the choristers, a girl in her teens, was visibly wearing read converse trainers under her cassock. The servers lit the altar candles with lighters that clicked with a noise audible throughout the entire church. One of the servers got lost and wandered down the nave when he clearly should have been elsewhere. At one point, the director of music and the vicar seemed to be having a sotto voce conversation up front. At the end, the choir stood up whilst the clergy and servers knelt.

Was the worship stiff-upper-lip, happy clappy, or what?
About 7 out of 10 on the old candle scale. Pretty MotR CofE with a few indications that the church leans a bit higher. The vicar wore a rose cope, and incense was used at the very end. The director of music wore a cotta with an academic hood, which is a combination hitherto unknown to me.

Exactly how long was the sermon?
There was none.

Which part of the service was like being in heaven? Some of the choral bits, especially a motet by Palestrina (or rather adapted from him) and the treble solo for the first verse of 'O Come, O Come Emmanuel'.

And which part was like being in... er... the other place? The general atmosphere of chaos before, during, and to a lesser extent after the service. Also, there was a pretty hellish wrong note in one of the choral anthems.

What happened when you hung around after the service looking lost? The sidesmen stood around awkwardly asking for money in a very English way. The vicar and curate were more genial, and greeted everyone as they left.

How would you describe the after-service coffee?
Mulled Wine, with mince pies and Christmas cake. Very nice, but dolled out in the stingiest quantities (the wine) or else in absurd abundance (the food). The only teetotal option was Irn Bru, which was bizarre (to put it mildly).

How would you feel about making this church your regular (where 10 = ecstatic, 0 = terminal)? 5. This Church seems lively, but they don't seem to have their act together.

Did the service make you feel glad to be a Christian? It didn't make me un-glad to be a Christian, but I do wonder whether those for whom this was the first experience of Christianity or the Church of England wouldn't find it terribly, well, slipshod.

******
Okay, so it's obviously not fair to MW one's own church, but as you can see I'm worried about the impression it must give visitors. I also know that we're getting worse (except perhaps, for the choir, who seem to be getting better). We used to have a brilliant sacristan who ran the place like a personal fiefdom and made sure that things were ship shape, but he moved away, and since then chaos has become more common. We have a goodly amount of lay involvement, and in general people want to to do things 'decently and in good order', but a combination of lack of forward planning, confusion, and sometime a certain laziness (and organizing things is a right royal pain in the ass, as I know as well as anybody) conspires to make things go a bit pear shaped. The strange thing is that the vicar doesn't seem quite as bothered by things as many the laity, and he's probably the only in a position to make any significant changes in terms of (for instance) forbidding choristers from wearing trainers or sitting during the distribution of Communion (the servers at least do wear black shoes and kneel during the entire distribution).

To keep this from being (purely) a hellish rant, is there any advice for how to save our services before they descend into absolute chaos?

I think we need a group of (probably youngish) parishoners to band together to exert the kind of influence the former sacristan used to do.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Sounds pretty good to me! A very respectable attendance, good singing, clearly read lessons, a well-planned service - what's not to like?

Frankly, I couldn't care less what choristers wear on their feet, though I take the point about being neat and unobtrusive. Yes, the sidespersons may perhaps need some guidance, but that's surely the Churchwardens' responsibility. The servers may need some guidance as well, and IMNSHO it is always a Good Idea for them to be rehearsed beforehand if the service is to take an unfamiliar form. I agree that a competent Sacristan/Head Server is useful......(we are most fortunate in having such a person, known as She Who Must Be Obeyed!).

I'm never too happy with peeps standing around after services apparently begging for money (it happens outside French cathedrals, but they do things differently there). We tend not to have collections at services other than the Sunday Parish Mass, but, if we do, it's done by a discreet announcement on the service sheet and a basket on the book table near the door.......

Ian J.

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

F Yes, the sidespersons may perhaps need some guidance, but that's surely the Churchwardens' responsibility. The servers may need some guidance as well, and IMNSHO it is always a Good Idea for them to be rehearsed beforehand if the service is to take an unfamiliar form.

I should point out that I was on sidesman duty tonight and am also a server. When I say that 'our standards' have slipped, I'm criticizing myself as well. I'd include myself as amongst the worst offenders.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, that's very honest of you! Perhaps you could take the lead in helping to tidy things up? IME, people sometimes simply don't realise that what they do (or don't do) creates - or may create - a bad impression, so it may be that a word in season is all that's needed.....

Ian J.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

First, you have a lot to be proud of. Seriously? A rose cope?

Now...having essentially been the feudal sacristan of my own place, I can honestly say that not one of the seven or so pastors I dealt with were good at handling small details, managing the correct propers, or at planning ahead (hymns, supplies, coordination with others, etc.) Nobody appreciates the obsessive sacristan until he steps aside and everything falls apart.

The fix? It will require several credibly intelligent people to commit to assisting with roles (e.g. coordinating assistants). It sounds so simple, but it's not. Few people want to commit nowadays, and the intelligent ones can see you coming from miles away and run!

Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :

S Bacchus

I am ever so slightly perturbed by your flippant dismissal of Irn Bru as an appropriate post-service liquid refreshment. This is Scotland's Other National Drink, and made from girders. Would you have turned up your nose at a half decent malt whisky? Maybe next year there will be Red Bull before the service to liven things up.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

Meant to add:

You will have to handle this tactfully, presenting it as an empowering of the laity, and a removal of burdens from the priest's shoulders.

Last but not least, the tragic news:

You are going to have to take the lead on this yourself. Welcome to the fun and exciting world of being liturgically pendantic, mocked behind your back by most, under-appreciated because everything runs so flawlessly and seemingly effortlessly.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

S. Bacchus posts:

quote:
The strange thing is that the vicar doesn't seem quite as bothered by things as many the laity

Actually, it's not so strange, and it's perhaps not a real problem. If the sacristan does their bit, then it's all taken care of. With a rose cope and a bit of smoke, it sounds as if it's well under way and in better shape than most parishes. The converse chorister is not a serious problem and I bet her voice helps lift the roof-- those who sing pray twice, or so S Ambrose is supposed to have said.

Most of the glitches S. Bacchus notes are easily dealt with by a bit more attention to prep and (especially) making sure that these details are not the job of a single person. Setting up procedures helps-- perhaps a loose-leaf binder with sections on individual exceptional services, and a section on What Needs To Be Done for Gaudete Sunday so that it can be pulled out the Sunday before and all organized.

Academic hood with cotta is correct (more in Latinate places, I suppose), but the Blessèd Percy would prefer a full surplice with hood.

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

Why not a REAL Mystery Worship report? It's obvious the interest is there! Please do make the exta effort to share it.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

With fear and trembling I poke my nose into a place more awe-inspiring than Hell...

I can see why it would be distracting to have whispered conferences up front during service, or to have the lights go off unexpectedly; but believe me, your average first-time visitor will NOT notice anything like red trainers, oddities (or not) of liturgical dress--heck, they'd only take notice if someone came in stark nekkid and beating a bongo drum, and even then they'd think they were the ones who weren't clued in. They don't know any of this stuff. And if they did, ninety-nine out of a hundred would look at you funny for caring.

If you want to have everything up to a high polish of perfection, that's great, knock yourself out. We need those kind of people. But don't be surprised if the pastor barely notices. He/she is doubtless worrying about the case of child rape he had to deal with last night,* or the parishioner who is dying by inches in hospital--and may go at any time.

* Yes, this happened with us. Within twelve hours, a case like this and then a very irate discussion of the proper liturgical way to orient chairs in the chancel. Council couldn't figure out why we weren't taking the issue with proper seriousness.

[Retires hastily to safer climes.]

[ 15. December 2013, 23:07: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
Why not a REAL Mystery Worship report? It's obvious the interest is there! Please do make the exta effort to share it.

We are not allowed to MW our own churches.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Like LC says, it's nothing an outsider would care about. I'd be pushed to care about it, it seems like a good service to me. A bit of chaos is surely normal and shows it's a church run by humans and not robots.

A fuss over nothing, sorry.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
...[N]ot one of the seven or so pastors I dealt with were good at handling small details, managing the correct propers, or at planning ahead (hymns, supplies, coordination with others, etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: ... [D]on't be surprised if the pastor barely notices. He/she is doubtless worrying about the case of child rape he had to deal with last night, or the parishioner who is dying by inches in hospital--and may go at any time.

I detect a disconnect between training and/or expectations of the clergy.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Really? [Snigger]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Now, I'm as liturgically pedantic as the next person (no, scratch that, I'm almost certainly much more liturgically pedantic than the next person) but if the worst that can be said is the red trainers then you are doing okay!

I don't think the church can be blame for the electricity doing funny things, but that is the part that worries me actually! If there is Victorian wiring involved it may be worth making sure that it is still safe. It's not too big a step from 'unexpectedly switching off' to 'unexpectedly catching fire'.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Can I draw the attention of S. Bacchus (and all other posters) to the fact that we do not, as a rule, allow unofficial MW reports as threads? The discussion material raised by the OP is perfectly fine for Ecclesiantics but please note for the future that the MW report format should not be used.

Many thanks,

seasick, Eccles host

[ 16. December 2013, 08:37: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

DJ, you're not quite pedantic enough, my friend. The OP didn't say these were red trainers, but that these were read trainers -- they've got an undergraduate degree in literature, presumably. It sounds like they should have known better. Then again, I don't think it really matters what the girl was wearing on her feet, so long as she wasn't wearing four-inch stilettos or barefoot.

I am both pastor and liturgical pedantic in my parishes. I can only hope that some of what I've taught them sticks once I'm gone -- although I know it probably won't, because that's how our system works. I've been working slowly and gently to bring things up to a point where I finally think everything works okay, but I still have hiccups and miscues. So a certain amount of that is just human nature.

S. Baccus, I think you've got yourself a job. You may can talk someone into taking ownership in part of it -- taking care of the sidesmen, for instance, or the servers -- but unless you get someone really passionate about it, it will fizzle before long. Still, I think that a large, crucial part of our walk with Christ is growth, and that includes growth in the area of service at church. So I think it's a good aim. Just go slowly and gently, explaining all along (endlessly) why each tweak is important and makes a difference. If you want to move a piano from the left side to the right, you do it an inch at a time.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Compared to many of the smaller churches around here, that sounds like a jolly good service! And I go to a church which prides itself (often to the point of exhaustion) on 'doing things properly'. I suggest, if you want things to go even more super-smoothly, that you decant to your nearest cathedral, where they have trained professionals to organise everything, not the people who unfortunately didn't look the other way when the PCC needed to vote in the officers.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
DJ, you're not quite pedantic enough, my friend. The OP didn't say these were red trainers, but that these were read trainers -- they've got an undergraduate degree in literature, presumably. It sounds like they should have known better. Then again, I don't think it really matters what the girl was wearing on her feet, so long as she wasn't wearing four-inch stilettos or barefoot.…

While I agree that four-inch stillettos can be hazardous, I'm not so worried about barefoot. Several summers back I was a bit astonished to observe a sub-deacon at high mass wearing flip-flops, but it turned out he was a last-minute sub for someone who didn't show.
Much more distracting is our curate, who refuses to wear socks, and whose alb frequently exposes his unaesthetic bare calves.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I don't think it really matters what the girl was wearing on her feet.

Much more distracting is our curate, who refuses to wear socks, and whose alb frequently exposes his unaesthetic bare calves.

Yes, it does matter. Black haberdashery, please. Otherwise the altar party is likely to slip and fall on the floor made wet by the Baby Jesus's and his Blessed Mother's tears.

That said, if your curate wishes to go "monastic drag" and wear brown sandals a la Franciscan, we'll overlook his sockless calves.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Incense? Pink cope? Palestrina? Texts from the Roman Divine Office? No cheery greeting from the vicar to start (Hello, I'm Mike the vicar here and it's lovely to see so many of you for this very special service etc, etc.)?

You call that middle of the road? MIDDLE OF THE ROAD?

It's stratopheric by some standards. And good on them for a courageous attempt to get beyond the cosy sentimental platitudes of Christmas.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

PS. Yes of course the shoes shouldn't be distracting. But I believe some medieval builders would leave one capital in a cathedral unfinished on the basis that only God can produce a perfect masterpiece. You might like to regard the server's trainers in the same light.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Incense? Pink cope? Palestrina? Texts from the Roman Divine Office? No cheery greeting from the vicar to start (Hello, I'm Mike the vicar here and it's lovely to see so many of you for this very special service etc, etc.)?

You call that middle of the road? MIDDLE OF THE ROAD?

It's stratopheric by some standards. And good on them for a courageous attempt to get beyond the cosy sentimental platitudes of Christmas.

This also seems very odd to me (the categorisation of it as being MOTR). S Bacchus have you actually ever been to a service at a MOTR or even low Anglican church?

Rose vestments = high. No question.

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Incense? Pink cope? Palestrina? Texts from the Roman Divine Office? No cheery greeting from the vicar to start (Hello, I'm Mike the vicar here and it's lovely to see so many of you for this very special service etc, etc.)?

You call that middle of the road? MIDDLE OF THE ROAD?

It's stratopheric by some standards. And good on them for a courageous attempt to get beyond the cosy sentimental platitudes of Christmas.
This also seems very odd to me (the categorisation of it as being MOTR). S Bacchus have you actually ever been to a service at a MOTR or even low Anglican church?

Rose vestments = high. No question.

I grew up as an Evangelical Anglican, I'll have you know! I also attended a grand total of two (2) Christian Union services at a well-known Conevo place as an undergraduate. Those were low. MOTR = choral evensong at my old college chapel or almost anything in a cathedral. [Biased]

On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is St Helen's Bishopsgate and 10 is their neighbours at S. Magnus the Martyr (with 5 being their mutual neighbour of St Paul's Cathedral), my current parish probably averages something like a 7.5. This particular service was more like a 6.5, with a whole 5.5 added on from 9 Lessons and Carols at King's (MOTR Anglicanism personified) simply for a cope and some incense. Thus, very much the upper end of MOTR.

As you can see, I have a very acute internal altimeter. [Razz]

I'm actually feeling a bit bad about starting this thread. As generally happens, a long-term frustration, triggered by a specific incident, spilled over into an overly prolix but somewhat vague opening post.

[ 16. December 2013, 20:29: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

No way is St Helens at 1 on the scale. There is at least one clear level below them, maybe two.

Never been to St Pauls, but their southside neighbour in the Borough is higher than halfway.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
]Yes, it does matter. Black haberdashery, please. Otherwise the altar party is likely to slip and fall on the floor made wet by the Baby Jesus's and his Blessed Mother's tears.

That said, if your curate wishes to go "monastic drag" and wear brown sandals a la Franciscan, we'll overlook his sockless calves.

Quite a few years ago, I was running a case in a town well west of the ranges from Sydney, in a diocese very much to the catholic end of the spectrum. Madame had come out for a bit of a break and we went to the local Anglican church for the evening service on Ash Wednesday. It had been a stinking hot day and even at 7.30 pm the temperature was still around 35. The priest came out in cassock and stole to apologise that he would not be wearing a chasuble as they were all to hot and heavy, the Lenten purple more so still. That was quite ok, but we noticed that he was wearing only sandals on his feet. Very suitable and also very timeless. It could have been 1700 years before, somewhere in North Africa, let alone a place where the Gospel had yet to be proclaimed.

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

This particular service was more like a 6.5, with a whole 5.5 added on from 9 Lessons and Carols at King's (MOTR Anglicanism personified) simply for a cope and some incense.

1.5, not 5.5 added! King's Cambridge is a perfect 5 (rising to a good 7 for their sung Eucharist), not a 2!

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Never been to St Pauls, but their southside neighbour in the Borough is higher than halfway.

Southwark has a reputation as one of the highest Cathedrals in the land. Perhaps a 6.5 to a 7. St Paul's is, as I said a clear 5 (as is Canterbury), with Westminster Abbey being about a 5.5.

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
No way is St Helens at 1 on the scale. There is at least one clear level below them, maybe two.

That may well be. I'd say that the London Oratory is a special case at an 11 — no longer Anglican but staffed by enough ex-Anglicans to resemble an Anglo-Catholic fantasy gone mad. There could well be evangelical equivalents that remain withing the CofE.

This is a pretty long tangent, though, and I suspect a host will be along shortly to admonish us.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

I'd really like to reprise your MW style, but I note we have been reprimanded.

We had our Advent Lessons and carols last night in our early 80s pizza-hut church on an inner-city council estate. A morning congregation of about 50 spawned an evening congregation of 10, including those who had to be there - the organist, minister, minister-in-training as assistant, and senior steward. At the advertised start time, all-up attendance was 6. I was there as my state of mind preculuded me from helping with the sunday school Christmas party earlier in the afternoon, but not from mopping up afterwards - and I felt sorry for everyone and stayed.

But actually, it was great. Everyone put their heart into it, including the guy who sings too loudly at the best of times, and in this setting was almost unbearable (that's me).

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

On Corpus Christi, I have attended a Choral Eucharist at St Paul's. Albeit the sacred ministers were wearing copes, there was a procession of the Blessed Sacrament to the St Dunstan's chapel at the West End. Not v MOTR.

The MOTR religion (11 am Matins, medals on the scarf, stole on the bird, badly sung Anglican chant in unison) my parents didn't attend when I was small has nearly vanished off the face of the earth, thank goodness, so SB is probably too young to remember it.

This scaling catholicism is a good game, but not very helpful. As an Anglican, for me Ken's church is as much part of the Catholic Church as Westminster Cathedral.

Since St Magnus still use olde worlde language from Cranmer, I'd mark them down on the scale.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Might I suggest that St Silas Kentish Town might qualify for the 10?

Many of those churches close to the bottom seem now to offer a weekly - or sometimes monthly -traditional alternative to the less formal main service.

The general moves that many London parishes have taken towards the high and low ends of the candle leaves the MOTR field bereft. I think that perhaps Chelsea Old Church (and possible Holy Trinity Prince Consort Road) is the last bastion of that tradition, and still does it well.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
But actually, it was great. Everyone put their heart into it, including the guy who sings too loudly at the best of times, and in this setting was almost unbearable (that's me).

That's lovely, Mark. And that's the sort of context in which Anglo Catholicism was at its best.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

venbede:

quote:
You call that middle of the road? MIDDLE OF THE ROAD?

Just about everyone thinks their own church is middle of the road.

And at least the chorister's trainers were liturgically correct. Red is allowed in Advent, you know. [Two face]

I was expecting a report of a Carols by Candlelight service going REALLY pear-shaped. Like the time at my previous church when one of the candles fell over and set fire to the stuff it had been propped up in. The choir didn't notice a thing because the burning candlestand was behind them and went on singing, while the churchwarden picked the whole thing up (risking singed eyebrows) and carried it out into the churchyard, reappearing shortly afterwards with soot all over his face. Now THAT is a disaster worth mentioning.

Since then the carol service at that church has been referred to as Carols by Pyrotechnics (and the idiot who thought that dry Oasis was a good thing to use as a candle-holder was never allowed to help with the pyrotechnics again).

[ 17. December 2013, 11:34: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Okay ... now I'm a no-longer virginal dean in a wonderful cathedral with glorious choral tradition blah blah blah

I want to say what many others have said above: well-friggin' done to all who tried and pretty much succeeded to pull this off. Liturgy is not about perfection it's about offering to God something of your singular and collective love. Shit happens. God smiles.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Men laugh at another man hanging out his son's nappies; God smiles contentedly (attrib. Luther).

Imagine hanging out nappies to try to dry them in a cold and damp Nth German winter - that after having washed them by hand etc.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Just picking up on your "God smiles" - it seems to me that He smiles with contentment at much which bothers our much smaller minds.

Posted by PataLeBon (# 5452) on :

To add to "shit happens", but God is OK with it...

My dear little growing church (that is about to hit it's seams), has a wonderful choir and congregation that has no problem in singing in 4 part harmony most traditional hymns.

This got our new organist/choirmaster to believe that playing the Hallelujah Chorus as the recessional for Christmas without rehearsing it with the choir was a good thing for Midnight Mass...

Uh...no...Good try, but no....

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
...[N]ot one of the seven or so pastors I dealt with were good at handling small details, managing the correct propers, or at planning ahead (hymns, supplies, coordination with others, etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: ... [D]on't be surprised if the pastor barely notices. He/she is doubtless worrying about the case of child rape he had to deal with last night, or the parishioner who is dying by inches in hospital--and may go at any time.
I detect a disconnect between training and/or expectations of the clergy.

Hmmm..I'd agree to an extent, but not with what you imply. The training issue goes squarely to seminary. A priest friend of mine goes straight from sitting in the confessional, hearing heaven only knows what, and then manages to preside at Mass for five hundred shortly thereafter without a bulletin that has everything spelled out word for word. He also does not forget what comes after the preface dialogue. And to top it all off, he could do the exact same thing with no problem in the church on the other side of town at a moment's notice.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

There are always miracle workers, but I wouldn't count on one of these in every parish.

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :

A local UCC puts its bulletin (service sheet) on its web site, and I check it out now and then, as I used to (long ago) be organist there, back when there was a "service book"-following minister there.

Christmas Eve showed a series of readings (presumably Biblical) with titles, but no other reference. First was "The Story", second, "The Hope", and so forth. The last one was "The Shinning" which made me LOL. Any way you corrected it, it was hilarious. "Shinning" gave me a mental picture of a shepherd kicking poor Joseph in the shins. Sinning? The Shining?

There was also distribution of the "bread and juice".

Just sayin'

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

LC's right in that most people won't either notice or care. One useful trick for dealing with those who notice, care, and write long letters of complaint (or similar) is to try to recruit them onto your team. To address LC's specific examples, it sure sounds like that board needs to find someone else to set up the chairs in the exact desired configuration (since it is apparently super-important to SOMEBODY) and free the pastor up to use his pastoral skills.

But to a larger point ... different people have different gifts. It's not useful in this case to put one or the other down or say it doesn't matter. Being a details/operations expert is a Highly Useful Skill to have in a congregation (indeed, in any group of people who Puts On Events). Eccles is a place where the detail mavens can hang out, talk shop, get support. I have learned incredible amounts about service-specific detail-mongering by hanging out here. The trick for these folks is (and I speak as an operations professional, details maven, and recovering perfectionist) is Knowing When To Let Go.

Stuff will occasionally happen to go wrong. Some of it is due to human error. Some of it is due to lack of planning. Some of it (like the lights blowing out) falls under the "S*** Happens" banner. Some of it might be observable, some not, some is of major concern, some isn't. In this case it sounds like the service was actually a success and most of what really needs to happen is some procedural polishing-up.

Doing a post-mortem on a big event, especially if you haven't done a similar one before, with "things that went well/lessons learned/ways to improve" is a useful thing. That way you can work on the things that are WITHIN YOUR CONTROL. The hand candles? Make it a congregational activity (during Sunday school or coffee hour) for a couple of Sundays before. Refreshments not to your liking? Tell the coordinators you're contributing <something you like>. Etc.

So to the OP: take a deep breath, congratulate yourselves on getting through it, find the things that can be improved that you can realistically work on fixing, and work on constructive ways to get it done.

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