Ship of Fools: Orientation

Thread: Orientation Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by rorate (# 17945) on :

Some help needed please: I have been asked to give a talk to members of the Armed Forces about using churches to aid orientation. I am pretty much ok with Anglican Churches in the UK and their East/West Orientation. I've got some info on Rome eg St Peter's which are orientated towards the West.

Any useful tip for soldiers who might find themselves needing to know which direction north is from other denominations or countries? Please! [Smile]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Don't even bother to look at Nonconformist churches - they just face the street! (Mind you, ours actually does face east - but that is an accident of geography).

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

Not sure how specific you need to be, but very old UK churches may not point due East. The more ancient tradition was to align them to sunrise on the day of their patronal, so that might vary the direction quite a bit; always vaguely eastwards, but St John the Baptist churches (June 25th) would be closest to facing rising sun at summer solstice.

They would need to cross check the alignment with the moss on trees in the churchyard, to make sure of both east and north. Then they should be fine. But the moss trick does not work in all countries, so they have to be careful with that one as well.

[ 30. December 2013, 13:10: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I wouldn't trust any church to point east these days, even an Orthodox one, since we often buy used buildings from other Christians. Tell them to buy a compass.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Isn't there some way of telling direction from the shadow cast on the ground ?

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

There was something in the Brownies [tiny Girl Scouts] about using yr watch and putting the sun on 12 o'clock and then something is where the shadow falls (what something and what shadow I can't remember)
If it is a mosque then there is a Michrab (an arrow) that points to Mecca. But it is INSIDE the building and they will probably be OUTSIDE (at least to begin with - oops!)

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

Let's see - don't you look to see which side of the church has moss growing on it?

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I don't think I would want to trust my orientations to anything of this sort - although churches in most places traditionally faced east, this was often in practice altered to fit the surrounding field or street patterns. Even if East was intended, dark age architecture didn't always get very close and later rebuilds often followed the earlier, inaccurate plans. So in short... Yeah,, buy a compass!

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

My CofE pile, built in 1875 of a limestone unsuited to the acid atmosphere of a city, has its 'East' end pointing roughly north. Since Faculties (permissions from the diocese for changes to the building) refer to directions liturgically rather than geographically, this can lead to confusion.

(You can use the sun and a dial watch to get a reasonable approximation to south. You bisect the angle between the hour hand and the direction of 6 o'clock, and then point that at the sun. The direction of 6 o'clock is then roughly south. But that needs (a) a watch with a dial, not a numeric display, and (b) being able to see the sun.)

Posted by rorate (# 17945) on :

Thank you for all the posts so far ...

The need for this information is to aid orientation if they have been taken hostage (or similar situation) and have escaped (without watch or compass), and potentially in the dark.

I am pretty good on UK churches, just wondering if there are any ponderings from around the globe.

Cheers [Smile]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

Would old graves be relevant? They would also usually be oriented East-West.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

You would need to give them all the equivalent of a degree in Art History or Architecture, specialising in the hypothetical country they find themselves hosted in.

Much simpler and more useful to teach some basic botany and agriculture and geology so that they can read the landscape.

In England many old churches are orientate north-south. Old churches can often be ten or more degrees off orientation anyway. And pretty much all urban churches, and many rural ones, are constrained by other buildings. It's just not a safe rule of thumb. Navigating by the sun is a lot more reliable. And I assume that they all know how to do that.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Star navigation, also known as celestial bearings when studied at Dartmouth by RN cadets:

Using Plough / Ursa Major to find north (you follow the side of the pan without the handle to find the Pole Star), or equivalents in the southern hemisphere.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Let's see - don't you look to see which side of the church has moss growing on it?

In this part of the world, that would be the inside.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I think satellite dishes all point in more or less the same direction, don't they? Might be some variations depending on where in the world you are, i suppose, but that might be a useful bit of urban bushcraft (if you knew where they were aligned to).

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think satellite dishes all point in more or less the same direction, don't they? Might be some variations depending on where in the world you are, i suppose, but that might be a useful bit of urban bushcraft (if you knew where they were aligned to).

All communications satellites are in geosynchronous orbits, and that requires that they be above the equator. Knowing more than that depends on the country in question.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

If you don't even know which way the equator is (which satellite dishes would help with) you are unlikely to make much sense of churches!

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If you don't even know which way the equator is (which satellite dishes would help with) you are unlikely to make much sense of churches!

Problem is that they'd only tell you that either North or South (depending on your hemisphere) is within 90 degrees either side of the dish unless, as I say, you know the location of the satellite more precisely. For example in most of Britain dishes will point to satellites due south of central Europe so point in a south easterly direction.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
(You can use the sun and a dial watch to get a reasonable approximation to south. You bisect the angle between the hour hand and the direction of 6 o'clock, and then point that at the sun. The direction of 6 o'clock is then roughly south. But that needs (a) a watch with a dial, not a numeric display, and (b) being able to see the sun.)

If you know what hemisphere you're in.

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