Ship of Fools: Modern/charismatic Catholic churches in London/Midland cities (UK)

Thread: Modern/charismatic Catholic churches in London/Midland cities (UK) Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I am interested to visit a modern/charismatic Catholic church in either London (midweek service best for this) or a city in the Midlands easy to get to via public transport (from Northampton). Or indeed, in Northampton! RC or A-C both acceptable although I suspect I would really be looking at mostly RC churches. There are some charismatic RC churches in Aylesbury (have friends there) but it's really inaccessible by public transport for some reason.

Would like modern music/worship bands - I realise this is anathema to many Eccles denizens, sorry!

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

I've never been to a service there but I understand that St. Joseph's in Northolt is Charismatic RC. Not sure if it would work for you because you either have to get on the central line out to Northolt and then a 140 bus or get to Paddington, go to Hayes and Harlington and then get a bus in the opposite direction. Do please check all this stuff yourself because I stopped routinely popping over to Northolt around 2003 when I moved out of London.

We did have a shipmate who was an Anglican curate in Northolt at one point who could comment, so if anyone is in touch with him and can summon him forth from the vasty deep, that would be helpful.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It's very rare for me to attend an RC service in the UK, but last year I went to one in North Birmingham, and I was surprised that they had such lively music. The lady I went with told me that was normal. There was a drummer, a keyboardist and a guitarist, I think. The congregation was small but so was the worship space, so it felt rather cosy.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Another to try is Holy Trinity Barkingside. The former Vicar has just moved to St Peter's Eaton Square, a central London Parish - will be interesting to see if any charismatic practice gets embraced at any services there.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
I've never been to a service there but I understand that St. Joseph's in Northolt is Charismatic RC.

Charismatic CofE modern catholic

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Apologies for the multiple posts. Charismatic services make me feel uncomfortable so I tend to avoid them, even though they intrigue me.

But I did accidently stumble upon what appeared to be a charismatic Mass at Our Lady of Victories (RC of course) in Kensington one Sunday evening. There was a band, a singing group who were swaying - along with some of the congregation - but no hands in the air, words on a screen, and modern music. The church was packed, 500 people at least, but a nice lady at the door told me that the church is much fuller in the morning.

There was a moving counterpoint between the informality of the music, and the dignity of the ceremonial and liturgy which somehow worked.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Svitlana do you remember the name of the church?

Thanks for the responses. Should have probably specified central/easily accessible London! The Kensington church sounds interesting.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It's the West Indian Chaplaincy at the Our Lady of the Caribbean Chapel Centre, Bayswater Road, Birchfield, Birmingham, B20 3AE. (You don't have to be Caribbean to go there.) The Sunday services are at 11.30am.

It's nowhere near as grand as the London churches mentioned above!

[ 22. January 2014, 23:40: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Holy Trinity Barkingside looks absolutely wonderful.

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

The Parish of St Charles Borromeo, Ogle Street certainly used to be the place that those like that sort of thing would like in London. It's in an interesting neighborhood, liturgically: it's nearest Anglican neighbors are All Saints, Margaret Street (a famous Anglo-Catholic shrine, although in present practice fairly moderate) and All Souls, Langham Place (an equally famous Anglican Evangelical shrine, although fairly 'sane'). Also nearby are the French Protestant Church, and bilingual Welsh chapel that also hosts a Chinese protestant congregation. The American Church in London is also not a million miles away.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
The Parish of St Charles Borromeo, Ogle Street certainly used to be the place that those like that sort of thing would like in London. It's in an interesting neighborhood, liturgically: it's nearest Anglican neighbors are All Saints, Margaret Street (a famous Anglo-Catholic shrine, although in present practice fairly moderate) and All Souls, Langham Place (an equally famous Anglican Evangelical shrine, although fairly 'sane'). Also nearby are the French Protestant Church, and bilingual Welsh chapel that also hosts a Chinese protestant congregation. The American Church in London is also not a million miles away.

at 'sane'. Poor John Stott, talk about damning with faint praise! Thanks though.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Ogle Street has the most spectacular font I know.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Ogle Street has the most spectacular font I know.

Oh, font as in baptism! I was getting confused with the other thread.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Jade Constable, would you mind either posting here or PM-ing me once you've visited such a place? I'd be interested in your findings/reactions.

I've not had first hand experience of the charismatic end of the Anglo-Catholic or Roman Catholic scenes.

So I'm intrigued as to how it 'works'. I was interested in Liturgylover's comment about the way that the informality of the sung worship seemed to fit in somehow with the ceremonial of the Liturgy/eucharist.

I've always imagined that in charismatic Anglo-Catholic circles, at least, the services themselves wouldn't differ a great deal from 'non-charismatic' services in that tradition and that the charismatic elements would largely be exercised privately or in small groups settings.

I'm not sure why I think that ...

On the RC side, I'd expect there to be more of a 'contemporary' feel - but perhaps a more 'folky' sound than is apparent these days among evangelical charismatics - who seem to favour a kind of soft-rock sub-Coldplay, sub-U2 approach from what I can gather...

I'd be interested to hear how these things are done among RC and AC charismatics.

I think I'd need to trail up to Manchester or down to Birmingham to visit anywhere like this.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Jade Constable, would you mind either posting here or PM-ing me once you've visited such a place? I'd be interested in your findings/reactions.

I've not had first hand experience of the charismatic end of the Anglo-Catholic or Roman Catholic scenes.

So I'm intrigued as to how it 'works'. I was interested in Liturgylover's comment about the way that the informality of the sung worship seemed to fit in somehow with the ceremonial of the Liturgy/eucharist.

I've always imagined that in charismatic Anglo-Catholic circles, at least, the services themselves wouldn't differ a great deal from 'non-charismatic' services in that tradition and that the charismatic elements would largely be exercised privately or in small groups settings.

I'm not sure why I think that ...

On the RC side, I'd expect there to be more of a 'contemporary' feel - but perhaps a more 'folky' sound than is apparent these days among evangelical charismatics - who seem to favour a kind of soft-rock sub-Coldplay, sub-U2 approach from what I can gather...

I'd be interested to hear how these things are done among RC and AC charismatics.

I think I'd need to trail up to Manchester or down to Birmingham to visit anywhere like this.

Not a problem. If I do a MW report I will link you since it's not under this name.

I too am intrigued by the music side of things - I heard a very modern RC service on a Sunday morning on R4 a while ago and it was virtually indistinguishable from a mainstream evo CoE service, but don't think it was charismatic.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So I'm intrigued as to how it 'works'. I was interested in Liturgylover's comment about the way that the informality of the sung worship seemed to fit in somehow with the ceremonial of the Liturgy/eucharist.

On the RC side, I'd expect there to be more of a 'contemporary' feel - but perhaps a more 'folky' sound than is apparent these days among evangelical charismatics - who seem to favour a kind of soft-rock sub-Coldplay, sub-U2 approach from what I can gather...

Happy to elaborate on what I experienced at Our Lady of Victories in Kensington. What was interesting was that liturgically the service was probably more formal than the norm for the RC services I have attended, with incense, robed servers, and nice vestments. As far as the mass it followed exactly the form prescribed with all the readings etc, and as always in RC churches everyone knew when to stand, sit or kneel.

I wish I could remember the songs (the words for which appeared on a screen). I think I would describe them as rocky rather folksy, with a spiritual underpin. I do remember the Responsorial Psalm was beautifully sung with a Taize style refrain, the Alleluia was particulalry exuberent with clapping and swaying, and the santus was a paraphrase setting which I had never heard before.

As far as congregational participation, very few sang, but it was no worse than what I have seen in a mass with more traditional music. Something I have never seen anywhere - and it felt odd to me - is that there was a round of applause for the musicians at the end!

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :

We have 2 charismatic catholic shops in Willesden, both seeking new priests as it happens (plug!)
S Jo the Worker Northolt (where the previous priest recently died in office - Fran Caldecourt, much lamented and much loved); and S Barnabas Northolt Park (where Tricia Hillas, the parish priest is about to become Canon Pastor of St Paul's Cathedral). The tough call is finding good missional clergy who can combine this diverse spirituality with authenticity. Both a parishes where I love worshipping and confirming. Rich liturgy and modern hymnody with depth.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Sounds good, Bishop Pete. I'm intrigued by attempts to achieve the 'best of both worlds' as it were in an 'authentic' way as you've described it here.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Is there something about Northolt, or just a random coincidence?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

They put charismatic incense in the water supply.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Are there any charismatic catholic places in the Diocese of Southwark? I'd be interested.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I'd actually be really interested in a UK nationwide "directory" of churches like this.
Does anyone know of one?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I suspect it'd be difficult to compile, Mrs Beaky - but perhaps we ought to do one ourselves?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

How would you know a liturgical church was charismatic, other than the music?

I'm genuinely interested.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
How would you know a liturgical church was charismatic, other than the music?

I'm genuinely interested.

I wouldn't say the music is the main thing. Charismatic phenomena (don't know the proper term, I'm sure Gamaliel can correct me) would be the main indication eg speaking in tongues.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
How would you know a liturgical church was charismatic, other than the music?

Well back in the days of the begining of the Great Restoration that turned into Toronto and then didn't quite happen, the congregation at St Margarets in Durham used to spontaneously break out into singing in the spirit during Communion, and (breath not a word of thin on that other thread over there...) during the Peace. Which usually went on for over 20 minutes and sometimes nearer an hour.

Or so I was told, I went to St Nicks where we shook hands politely at the Peace and did not at all speak in tounges (though we did sometimes sing "choruses" led by a "worship band" - this was the mid-1970s when George Carey was vicar there - for the last year or two of my time in Durham Bishop Pete of this parish was curate there)

The few times I did go to St Margaret's, things sort of like that did happen a little bit, though only a little, and for more like four or five minutes than the forty-five or so that we had been told about. Maybe it was one of those great movements wghich is always just over when you get there, where the best stuff had always happened a few months before earlier. Like the British Empire, the 1960s, the Second Folk Revival, and Usenet.

It was good fun though. Not my particular cup of tea as a worship experience, though I suspect I'd be easier with it now than I was then (and then I would likely have been more unfamiliar with the Catholic part than the Charismatic part)

Apparently St Margarets had been a pretty straightforward Anglo-Catholic parish before its charismatic period - though that would be by Durham standards, so would probably count as liberal-catholic MOTR in Southwark or Brighton - and by the look of their website that's where they are again.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Apparently St Margarets had been a pretty straightforward Anglo-Catholic parish before its charismatic period - though that would be by Durham standards, so would probably count as liberal-catholic MOTR in Southwark or Brighton - and by the look of their website that's where they are again.

I remember it (in the 60s, with an Irish vicar) as solid Prayer Book Catholic with lowish ceremonial. It still looks on the low side to me.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

In the first half of the last decade, it was sunny side of middle.

Thurible

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :

St Margaret's got worked over by the Diocese of Durham to get it out of its charismatic phase once the vicar changed. Deliberate policy to bring it back to moderate catholic.

How do you recognise one? Catholic liturgy, charismatic worship and spirituality, ministry of healing during/after the distribution of HC, supernaturalist understanding ("God's still at work in the world and church through intervention and gifts"), liberation of the gifts of the baptised (though Father occasionally knew best!). In liturgy, bells and smoke, extended periods of sung worship, the occasional interpolation of non Common Worship material..

Posted by Mike T (# 12620) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
I've never been to a service there but I understand that St. Joseph's in Northolt is Charismatic RC...

I've been dispatched by +Pete of this parish to provide interim care for St Joseph's following the sudden (& very sad) demise of their previous incumbent. Coming from a bastion of evangelicalism, it is a refreshing & rewarding experience. It is clearly Anglo Catholic, and also values its Charismatic heritage - seen in prayer ministry & expectancy of God to move in their midst. I'm always cautious about defining somewhere as Charismatic - it seems to me to be a very subjective assessment. But St Joseph's is an exciting place to be and well worth a visit even if it is a bit of a trek!

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

20 years ago I was a regular at the evening service of Holy Trinity Hounslow which could be roughly described as Vineyard with eucharist.

There was a long vacancy of over 2 years following the death of the vicar. An NSM took the morning service but in the evening we generally had visitors, and one of the most frequent was Denis Bradshaw, then the vicar of St Joseph's Northolt.

He often would say that he felt there was someone present who had problems with X or needed help with Y or was suffering from illness Z and invite them to come and be prayed for at the end of the service. So I would guess the same thing happened in his own church though I don't know for sure.

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pete173:

Catholic liturgy, charismatic worship and spirituality, ministry of healing during/after the distribution of HC, supernaturalist understanding ("God's still at work in the world and church through intervention and gifts"), liberation of the gifts of the baptised (though Father occasionally knew best!). In liturgy, bells and smoke, extended periods of sung worship, the occasional interpolation of non Common Worship material..

Sounds about right. There are quite a few catholic parishes which, in the wonderful language of the Church of England, have been 'Influenced by renewal'.

Posted by Ashworth (# 12645) on :

When I was visiting London a few months ago I went to St. Michael's, Wood Green. It was the 10.30am Sunday Parish Mass. Loved it! Found it really exciting, lively and uplifting, yet also dignified and liturgically very good.

Anglo-Catholic, Roman Rite, full team of servers, smells and bells etc. Probably more Forward in Faith than Aff Cath but not overtly so. Large very multicultural congregation. Great mixture of traditional and modern music. Full use of multimedia, no hymn books or Mass books, everything on large screen at front and monitors on most pillars towards the back. Everything very slick, priest seemed to use laptop on stand behind the altar more than missal book! Quite amazing really. I'm surprised no-one on here has ever really mentioned this place as far as I know.

As an organist in a fairly traditional Anglo-Catholic church, I was a little taken aback at first to find no live music. Everything was from backing tracks but it all worked so well and so smoothly. Very lively singing of modern worship songs throughout the Mass and a lively Mass setting too.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
When I was visiting London a few months ago I went to St. Michael's, Wood Green. It was the 10.30am Sunday Parish Mass. Loved it! Found it really exciting, lively and uplifting, yet also dignified and liturgically very good.

Anglo-Catholic, Roman Rite, full team of servers, smells and bells etc. Probably more Forward in Faith than Aff Cath but not overtly so. Large very multicultural congregation. Great mixture of traditional and modern music. Full use of multimedia, no hymn books or Mass books, everything on large screen at front and monitors on most pillars towards the back. Everything very slick, priest seemed to use laptop on stand behind the altar more than missal book! Quite amazing really. I'm surprised no-one on here has ever really mentioned this place as far as I know.

As an organist in a fairly traditional Anglo-Catholic church, I was a little taken aback at first to find no live music. Everything was from backing tracks but it all worked so well and so smoothly. Very lively singing of modern worship songs throughout the Mass and a lively Mass setting too.

Interesting - I visited a few years ago and arrived late to find it so packed that it was standing room only. I must go back sometime - it sounds fascinating.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
When I was visiting London a few months ago I went to St. Michael's, Wood Green. It was the 10.30am Sunday Parish Mass. Loved it! Found it really exciting, lively and uplifting, yet also dignified and liturgically very good.

Anglo-Catholic, Roman Rite, full team of servers, smells and bells etc. Probably more Forward in Faith than Aff Cath but not overtly so. Large very multicultural congregation. Great mixture of traditional and modern music. Full use of multimedia, no hymn books or Mass books, everything on large screen at front and monitors on most pillars towards the back. Everything very slick, priest seemed to use laptop on stand behind the altar more than missal book! Quite amazing really. I'm surprised no-one on here has ever really mentioned this place as far as I know.

As an organist in a fairly traditional Anglo-Catholic church, I was a little taken aback at first to find no live music. Everything was from backing tracks but it all worked so well and so smoothly. Very lively singing of modern worship songs throughout the Mass and a lively Mass setting too.
Interesting - I visited a few years ago and arrived late to find it so packed that it was standing room only. I must go back sometime - it sounds fascinating.

Well, I managed to combine the Sung Mass at St Michael today with a visit to a relative in a nearby hospital. The combination of dignity and modern music was the same as you described Ashworth, and I must say the atmosphere was absolutely wonderful. I did think some of the tunes sounded a bit tinny on the electronic backing tapes, but the church was completely packed out and participation both in the music and the ceremonial was superb, and it was done without a single hand in the air. There was a good mixture of old and new (Soul of my Saviour for example was sung at Communion) but I could never have expected the final worship song (Darkness is gone, daylight is come) to be followed by Joy to Thee, O Queen of Heaven. Superb!

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

The only Charismatic RC parishes I have seen in the US have usually been immigrant communities - Hispanic, Asian, African, Caribbean, etc. In the US, does anyone know of Charismatic parishes that are largely white non-Hispanic?

I've definitely attended Mass in white non-Hispanic RC parishes where worship resembled a megachurch in some ways (hymn lyrics projected with powerpoint, use of synthesizer in the music, etc. But there wasn't the hands-raised, clapping, murmuring whispers to God in the congregation that I was familiar with from the charismatic immigrant RC parishes I had been to. There wasn't really anything Charismatic at all about the service.

Has Charismatic catholicism not caught on among the white non-hispanic community in the US like it has in the UK? Why?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

Has Charismatic catholicism not caught on among the white non-hispanic community in the US like it has in the UK? Why?

I have no special expertise in this area, but I can propose some possibilities. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm way off the mark.

My impression is that, unlike what you've said about the USA, British RC worship is very multicultural. There are relatively few RC churches in a town, so unless worshippers are attending services in their own language (which isn't possible for every ethnic group in every area) they have to be willing to stand alongside an international group of RCs who have diverging expectations of worship. This might open everyone up to sharing new worship styles.

Also, I seem to have this idea that white American RCs in some places still feel rather ambivalent about their social status. IME, churches that have some underlying anxiety about this tend not to be the most adventurous about worship. They fear that too much exuberance could indicate a loss of 'standards', and a slide down the social scale. Perhaps this is a greater fear among white RCs in the USA, where popular Christian culture is dominated by charismaticism; in the UK, however, white charismaticism is frequently rather posh, so a movement in this direction doesn't indicate a loss of status at all - maybe the opposite.

I suspect that the more advanced state of British secularism also has a part to play. White American RCs might feel compelled to emphasise their distinctiveness in a predominantly Protestant culture, but in Britain church decline has broken down some of the barriers and made the churches more willing to cooperate and learn from each other....

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

Has Charismatic catholicism not caught on among the white non-hispanic community in the US like it has in the UK? Why?
I have no special expertise in this area, but I can propose some possibilities. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm way off the mark.

My impression is that, unlike what you've said about the USA, British RC worship is very multicultural. There are relatively few RC churches in a town, so unless worshippers are attending services in their own language (which isn't possible for every ethnic group in every area) they have to be willing to stand alongside an international group of RCs who have diverging expectations of worship. This might open everyone up to sharing new worship styles.

Also, I seem to have this idea that white American RCs in some places still feel rather ambivalent about their social status. IME, churches that have some underlying anxiety about this tend not to be the most adventurous about worship. They fear that too much exuberance could indicate a loss of 'standards', and a slide down the social scale. Perhaps this is a greater fear among white RCs in the USA, where popular Christian culture is dominated by charismaticism; in the UK, however, white charismaticism is frequently rather posh, so a movement in this direction doesn't indicate a loss of status at all - maybe the opposite.

I suspect that the more advanced state of British secularism also has a part to play. White American RCs might feel compelled to emphasise their distinctiveness in a predominantly Protestant culture, but in Britain church decline has broken down some of the barriers and made the churches more willing to cooperate and learn from each other....

White Charismaticism is seen as posh in the UK? That is interesting. The US is full of evangelical churches that cater to the white middle to upper middle class, and some of them are Charismatic, but I never thought of the charismatic movement as being seen as posh. But I'm incredibly ignorant about evangelicalism even here in the US, so I can't comment much.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Well, what I mean is that charismatic churches nowadays frequently cater to the middle and upper middle classes. The most famous charismatic church, Holy Trinity Brompton (the home of the Alpha Course), certainly has a posh, well-heeled image. The English media's interest in charismaticism partly derives from its appeal to educated and well-connected professional people.

White working class charismatics and Pentecostals do exist, but have declined in number a lot. In English cities, 'Pentecostalism' generally refers to the black majority churches, or to churches that have become very multicultural.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, what I mean is that charismatic churches nowadays frequently cater to the middle and upper middle classes. The most famous charismatic church, Holy Trinity Brompton (the home of the Alpha Course), certainly has a posh, well-heeled image. The English media's interest in charismaticism partly derives from its appeal to educated and well-connected professional people.

White working class charismatics and Pentecostals do exist, but have declined in number a lot. In English cities, 'Pentecostalism' generally refers to the black majority churches, or to churches that have become very multicultural.

I don't think HTB is necessarily representative though, due to it's location. My own charismatic church (NFI) is very mixed, both from a class and ethnicity/cultural perspective. We do have a higher than average number of graduates but that is the same for most churches in Cambridge. Our sister church in Luton is just as charismatic but far more working class due to it's location.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I'm sure it varies from place to place. In my city there are some largely working class (Protestant) congregations with charismatic elements - although they're also very multicultural, which seems to be key. Then there are the black-led churches that identify as Pentecostal. IME, though, white middle class charismatics seem to worship in churches where they're in the majority. These churches probably also benefit from more financial security, which adds to their apparent supremacy.

I think it's probably the case too that as MOTR/traditional style churches decline rapidly the charismatic-influenced churches and styles of worship will take up a bigger share of what's left, regardless of class, ethnicity or maybe even theology.

Getting back to the RCC, it would be interesting to know whether charismatic worship styles owe anything to converts coming in from other denominations.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm sure it varies from place to place. In my city there are some largely working class (Protestant) congregations with charismatic elements - although they're also very multicultural, which seems to be key. Then there are the black-led churches that identify as Pentecostal. IME, though, white middle class charismatics seem to worship in churches where they're in the majority. These churches probably also benefit from more financial security, which adds to their apparent supremacy.

I think it's probably the case too that as MOTR/traditional style churches decline rapidly the charismatic-influenced churches and styles of worship will take up a bigger share of what's left, regardless of class, ethnicity or maybe even theology.

Getting back to the RCC, it would be interesting to know whether charismatic worship styles owe anything to converts coming in from other denominations.

Among the Spanish speaking immigrant community in my neighborhood of NYC, charismatic worship was popular whether it was in my RC parish or in one of the many Spanish-speaking Pentecostal churches nearby. Many (but not a majority of) people attended both Catholic and Pentecostal services. And of course a segment of the population added practices from the syncretic Santeria religion to whatever Christian church they attended.

I think that Pentecostalism, including many churches founded by Latin Americans, has really given the RCC a run for its money in Latin America and in Latin American communities in the US. It is therefore natural that some (but not all) Spanish-speaking parish communities in the RCC would embrace Charismatic worship, since Pentecostal-style worship has become part of some Latin American communities regardless of the denomination. Note though that in the US, RC Spanish-language worship can vary considerably depending on the country of origin of the congregation (which is often mixed but one or two countries tends to dominate for each parish) and of the priest. When a parish is lucky enough to have a priest who speaks Spanish as a native language and is from the same country of origin as most of the congregation, which was the case at my old parish until recently, a parish can get a real cultural "vibe" and stand out from other parishes which, whether English or Spanish in their worship, tend to be bland to accommodate many different communities (Korean, Haitian Creole, and Vietnamese parishes also benefit from relative cultural uniformity). The RC parish I used to attend would have Spanish "revival" nights that were just as loud and vibrant, if not more so, than Sunday worship. I'm not sure if the other parishes in NYC with large populations from the Dominican Republic were similar or whether that parish was more unique.

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Are there any charismatic catholic places in the Diocese of Southwark? I'd be interested.

St Andrew's Croydon ?

Posted by Try (# 4951) on :

St. Mary's Anglican Church in Irving, Texas, is an excellent example of modern, moderately charismatic anglo-Catholic parish. Despite their name, they are part of the Episcopal Diocese of Dallas, not ACNA. I visited them when I was visiting my parents and my mother decided to go shopping on a Sunday morning and I decided to check out a local Episcopal parish rather than field awkward questions about where she was in the Methodist church I grew up in. Their identity as anglo-Catholics seems quite firm. They refer to their services as masses with no explanation or apology, which I consider a sign of firm anglo-Catholic identity. They also had a Marian shrine, and of course being named in honor of Our Lady is itself a badge of identity. They have a chapter of the Society of Mary. All of the priests were male, though that could simply be a coincidence. As far as charismatic identity goes, they have a prayer team available in a side chapel after Communion during the 10:30 mass. They link to the Order of St. Luke The Physician on their website. Visitors were asked to introduce themselves during the peace, and there were spontaneous prayer requests from the congregation at appropriate times during the Prayers of the People. Some people used the orans position during the Lord's Prayer. OTOH, there was no speaking in tongues or interrupting the liturgy for prophecies, etc... The English language mass I attended was about 50% Africans, 30% Anglos, and 20% assimilated Mexicans. The Spanish masses are, according to the priest, a mixture of Mexicans and Latin Americans. They claim that they call themselves Anglican because new African immigrants don't know what an Episcopalian is and are looking for the local Anglican church. The worship was Rite-2 79 BCP, with the addition of the Oratre Fratres but NOT the Hail Mary. The instrumentation was of a contemporary folk style with acoustic guitars and African drums. The lyrics came from the 1982 Hymnal and several songbooks, plus one song on a photocopied sheet- a mixture of traditional and contemporary lyrics. Marty Haugen did make his way into the Sanctus and his Angus Dei replaced the Christ our Passover. There was no projection. As a previous commentator predicted, the musical style was softer and folkier than the current sort of CCM favored by charismatic evangelicals. It's hard to put a finger on any particular reason why, but this parish's worship seemed very spontaneous and very confident about its Catholic identity. Most anglo-Catholic worship is very nervous about getting all of the words and rubrics right, as if catholicity depended on liturgical perfection. This parish did not have that problem. I enjoyed my experience at St. Mary's a great deal, and would probably worship there regularly if I moved back to Irving.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
I've never been to a service there but I understand that St. Joseph's in Northolt is Charismatic RC.

You mean Anglo-Catholic? It's a lot less charismatic (and full) than it used to be - if you mean St Joseph the Worker

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