Ship of Fools: Moot

Thread: Moot Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ags (# 204) on :

I thought Ecclesiantics would be the best place to post this.

Has anyone here any experience of Moot?

They describe themselves as a 'new-monastic community' and are based in the City of London. I've been aware of them at Greenbelt in the past and always considered them as part of the fresh expressions movement, but don't know much else. Am planning to go to a service when I can, but would be grateful for any thoughts, comments, experiences etc.

Thanks.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

I have very limited experience having been last year to a weekday morning prayer service at St Mary Aldermary. Well, it was very similar to morning prayer at St Paul's Cathedral except there were fewer people - only around ten of us - and it was noisy as there was a cafe at the back of the church and the barista decided to re-fill the coffee beans in the middle of the prayer service. I am afraid that I left unimpressed and none the wiser about what MOOT was all about.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I've met the PinC of the church in the City where they are based- in fact we had a rather heated discussion about the Sheffield Nine O'Clock Service which was a big influence on him...

Its another permutation on Fresh Expressions, etc -

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I've met the PinC of the church in the City where they are based- in fact we had a rather heated discussion about the Sheffield Nine O'Clock Service which was a big influence on him...

Its another permutation on Fresh Expressions, etc -

It looks and feels like yet another group thinking that they are cutting edge but are anything but - doesn't anyone ever read the scripture about "nothing new under the sun?"

Posted by Mr Beamish (# 17991) on :

quote:
The greatest problem in the twenty-first century Western world is that most of us basically do not like ourselves.

Rapacious appetite for luxury, irresponsible use of energy, destructive fiscal policies and warmongering governments all to one side for one moment. After all, meditation and navel-gazing are basically the same thing.

quote:
Spirituality and in particular Christian Spirituality is the focus to the life of Moot.

This sentence worries me on at least two levels. The following one begins:

quote:
As a New Monastic Community prayer and spirituality are seen as one of the key medias...

http://www.moot.uk.net/spirituality/

[Waterworks]

[ 11. March 2014, 07:29: Message edited by: Mr Beamish ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Right I think I need to intervene. Please remember this board is a combination of Mystery Worship and Small Fires. This is relevant as Moot originated in the Alternative Worship(Alt.W) movement. Small Fires was also part of that expression.

It sounds to me as if it may have remained Alt.W than others. Now Alt.W is not Fresh Expressions although Fresh Expressions have absorbed much of Alt.W. Steve Collins wrote a definition. Among his nots he says:

quote:

not an attempt to reach particular social or cultural groups

That would definitely make it not a Fresh Expression which is precisely set up to do that.

So this is primarily a group who have been meeting for over ten years to prepare worship for themselves. I find it hardly surprising with the involvement that requires they are now talking of themselves as a religious community. Nor am I surprised at their involvement with the arts, the process is very demanding creatively.

I have tried to find Steve Collins post in his Small Fire Column actually wrote about Moot but I have failed.

Jengie

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

I've been to a few of their events.

They've changed a great deal over the years. They aren't doing the sort of classic Alt.W that they were doing in the early days.

I once went to a BCP weekday lunchtime communion, which I noticed was billed as a Moot event. It was a nice service, and I'm sure most people here will be pleased to hear that it wasn't discernibly different to a non-moot BCP communion.

I'm told their midweek evening meditation session has about 30 people, which is a lot for a midweek City service.

The coffee machine that Liturgylover complained about makes excellent coffee.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I've been to two very moving services of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament by Moot.

I am not sure why Mr. Beamish is worried about new monasticism. I am pleased that evangelicals are discovering the catholic tradition. (Not that Moot is evangelical - it is anglo-catholic).

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I mystery worshipped Moot eight or nine years ago. At that time, they were meeting for worship at St. Matthew's Westminster, which may, or may not be, still the case.

Posted by Mr Beamish (# 17991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I've been to two very moving services of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament by Moot.

I am not sure why Mr. Beamish is worried about new monasticism. I am pleased that evangelicals are discovering the catholic tradition. (Not that Moot is evangelical - it is anglo-catholic).

That's not worries me. I was worried by the phrase, "Spirituality and in particular Christian Spirituality..." which is a suspiciously specific phrase from an ostensibly Christian group, or an unfortunate one depending upon how one looks at it. The part that distressed me in the other paragraph was not the new monasticism (perhaps it combat the new atheism) but

quote:
prayer and spirituality are seen as one of the key medias...

and the multitude of grammatical sins therein.

Posted by Mr Beamish (# 17991) on :

Hah! "[To] combat the new atheism" etc.

Karmic posting. [Yipee]

[ 11. March 2014, 17:25: Message edited by: Mr Beamish ]

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

I guess Moot's ethos either works for you or doesn't.(like Any church)
A bit Marmite-y, but then again I adore Marmite [Biased]

Their podcast I find very helpful and the website is usually up to date and relevant.

[ 12. March 2014, 11:52: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Beamish:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I've been to two very moving services of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament by Moot.

I am not sure why Mr. Beamish is worried about new monasticism. I am pleased that evangelicals are discovering the catholic tradition. (Not that Moot is evangelical - it is anglo-catholic).
That's not worries me. I was worried by the phrase, "Spirituality and in particular Christian Spirituality..." which is a suspiciously specific phrase from an ostensibly Christian group, or an unfortunate one depending upon how one looks at it.

I don't know anything about Moot, but that phrase actually looks rather non-specific to me! It seems to imply that they focus on Christian spirituality particularly, but not exclusively. Maybe they borrow one or two techniques from Buddhist meditation.

[ 12. March 2014, 13:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know anything about Moot, but that phrase actually looks rather non-specific to me! It seems to imply that they focus on Christian spirituality particularly, but not exclusively. Maybe they borrow one or two techniques from Buddhist meditation.

They practice meditation in the style advocated by the world community for christian meditation (WCCM). The WCCM teaches a practice which they trace to Christian sources such as John Cassian, but which is very similar to many Buddhist or Hindu practices.

So they are practicing a very ancient Christian spiritual practice which is practically similar to spiritual practices of other religions. As such, the phrase 'spirituality and in particular Christian spirituality' would seem quite appropriate. They are saying that meditation is a good thing, and that meditation in a Christian context is an even better thing.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I mystery worshipped Moot eight or nine years ago. At that time, they were meeting for worship at St. Matthew's Westminster, which may, or may not be, still the case.

They moved - +Chartres 'gave them' a disused guild church - St Mary Aldermary

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know anything about Moot, but that phrase actually looks rather non-specific to me! It seems to imply that they focus on Christian spirituality particularly, but not exclusively. Maybe they borrow one or two techniques from Buddhist meditation.
They practice meditation in the style advocated by the world community for christian meditation (WCCM). The WCCM teaches a practice which they trace to Christian sources such as John Cassian, but which is very similar to many Buddhist or Hindu practices.

So they are practicing a very ancient Christian spiritual practice which is practically similar to spiritual practices of other religions. As such, the phrase 'spirituality and in particular Christian spirituality' would seem quite appropriate. They are saying that meditation is a good thing, and that meditation in a Christian context is an even better thing.

To me this still feels backwards. I feel it should be "Christian meditation is great; other forms have something interesting to say as well".

This is possibly splitting hairs.

Posted by Mr Beamish (# 17991) on :

I concur with Basilica: "primarily, but not exclusively, Christian spirituality" would be more reassuring, but in this context the phrasing is a bit... odd. It might betray something or it might be simply unfortunate.

If I were looking for a new GP and a website said, "The Faux Street Practice is concerned with medicine, especially human medicine" I would be equally unnerved. I don't think it's splitting hairs, but it might be reading too much into it.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Suppose that I find Moots utter honesty about the tough time to be refreshing.

+ I have found their podcasts to be challenging.

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
To me this still feels backwards. I feel it should be "Christian meditation is great; other forms have something interesting to say as well".

This is possibly splitting hairs.

At the risk of prolonging a tangent, I think this raises interesting questions about who the language used by Christians is aimed at.

I don't know for certain but I think moot are assuming that all the stressed city bankers rushing past their church might appreciate the need for stillness in their life, and might be most likely to look for it in eastern religions. Moot thinks they have what these people are looking for, but from a 'brand' they won't be expecting.

So what I think is the difference here is that Mot are describing themselves predominantly from the assumed worldview of the people they want to attract (while still saying things that are justifiable to Christian insiders). You'd prefer they tilted the linguistic balance slightly more towards the insiders.

Personally I think the church has a general tendency to describe itself in ways that are only meaningful to the insiders, and I applaud moot for trying not to do this.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
So what I think is the difference here is that Mot are describing themselves predominantly from the assumed worldview of the people they want to attract (while still saying things that are justifiable to Christian insiders). You'd prefer they tilted the linguistic balance slightly more towards the insiders.

Personally I think the church has a general tendency to describe itself in ways that are only meaningful to the insiders, and I applaud moot for trying not to do this.

Excellent point, *Leon*. [Overused]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
At the risk of prolonging a tangent, I think this raises interesting questions about who the language used by Christians is aimed at.

I don't know for certain but I think moot are assuming that all the stressed city bankers rushing past their church might appreciate the need for stillness in their life, and might be most likely to look for it in eastern religions. Moot thinks they have what these people are looking for, but from a 'brand' they won't be expecting.

So what I think is the difference here is that Mot are describing themselves predominantly from the assumed worldview of the people they want to attract (while still saying things that are justifiable to Christian insiders). You'd prefer they tilted the linguistic balance slightly more towards the insiders.

Personally I think the church has a general tendency to describe itself in ways that are only meaningful to the insiders, and I applaud moot for trying not to do this.

You're no doubt right in a lot of what you say.

I disagree, though, that it's about insiders and outsiders. For me the distinction is between conservative theology (where the particular is emphasised) and liberal theology (where the general is emphasised). Since I'm generally a conservative in theological terms, I prefer a phrasing that emphasises the particular rather than the universal. For me, saying "I like spirituality, and especially Christian spirituality" is like saying "I like religion, and especially Christianity"; to me that's problematic.

Really, though, this is a slight disquiet; I actually like Moot; when I move to London this year I hope to be able to encounter it more properly than linguistic nitpicking on a web forum.

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :

Mr Beamish - I am not sure where you are but you may be interested in this anglo catholic community who have done Mass in the big top at Greenbelt recently - an alternative to Moot perhaps?

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