Ship of Fools: Church retreats.

Thread: Church retreats. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

Our local Parish Church in the North East of Scotland is considering arranging a whole church family retreat. In the past we've had men's weekends away and women's weekends away, but now we're wondering about having something open to everyone. For our church that should be reasonably comfortable as the various children and various adults get on pretty well together and are used to sharing socials.

The idea is to go somewhere just far enough to be away, but close enough to drive to with young children or older people. It would be a group of all ages from months old to 90s, of mixed interests and abilities. We'd have shared and individual activities available. Some of our members are active, some arty, some musical, most can talk over cups of tea all day!

So far there are some positive thoughts, but also some doubts. Should we try to have a retreat open to whole families, or is that unrealistic? What about the Sunday service if most of the congregation go away? What about the cost to families?

Do people have experience of organizing this sort of thing? What works? What is difficult?

Cattyish, hoping it'll work.

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

My mother's church used to do this regularly, and it worked for them. They were not Church of Scotland (though Scottish) so did not have the rule to adhere to about providing worship in the parish. Your church will need to either organise some form of Sunday worship for those left behind or people, like visitors, who just turn up, or ask permission of presbytery not to hold a service on this one weekend for this reason. This is usually granted.

I think it could be a really good time, of being together, finding out about who you really are as a church family etc., even planning for the future. Conscious thought will have to be taken about how you are to avoid those who go seeming to be closer, even an inner circle, compared to those who do not, for whatever reason; and those who do attend will probably need to be reminded that they should not pepper their conversation with the rest with "When we were on retreat" and the like. While at the same time hopefully encouraging others to go next time.

Do you have a location? [Smile]

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

We'd think about reasonably local places, so maybe Arbroath, Aviemore, not further from the North East than that. There are lots of outdoor centers and Christian centers around. Groups have gone from here to Pluscarden Abbey before which worked well for either a group of men or a group of women but would not allow whole families to stay together.

I think we'd offer a small service led by a visiting speaker the week we were away rather than cancelling altogether, but that would need someone to lead it. I anticipate that in some families, someone will have to stay behind to feed the sheep.

Cattyish, drinking tea.

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

Yes, sheep can cast a long shadow here too, especially from about now for a month and then again in July for the clippings.

There is the Cairngorm Christian Centre in Kincraig,, depending how many of you are going.

[ 30. March 2014, 20:39: Message edited by: Cathscats ]

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

We did such a thing at our ECUSA. We had a common theme ( The Ten Commandments) and had a choice of things to do on this theme based on age and interest that people could take part in. Plenty of free time was also provided. We shared meals and morning and evening worship.
People made up teams to provide the meals.
We had someone back at church leading the service for those who decided not to come.
It was well received and repeated the next year.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

My church did this a long time ago. In those days the Sydney diocese owned a country property that acommodated activities such as this. Can't remember the cost now but it worked very well, all ages, plenty of free time, was a good experience and provided good opportunities for people to get to know one another.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I think having it open to whole families is important - even if not many families are able to come, excluding families would do more harm than good.

Posted by Fredegund (# 17952) on :

We did it a few years ago. OPen to all, no more than half hours' drive away, mixture of group worship (different styles), group talks, small groups, something for Yoof, and amazingly silly social stuff in the evening. And you spoke to people you barely knew. Would love to do it again.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

Thank you.

Jade, I so agree. Our church group is good at mixing ages and backgrounds. Anything we do should definitely encourage this.

Fredegund, that sounds great. I love the idea of having things to do separately and things to do together.

Cattyish, off to sew things.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

It might be worth hiring in someone to run some events for children/ young people so parents can have some time to themselves (in addition to all age activities). Otherwise it might be a case of looking after the bairns and not getting to know others very well or doing anything other than trying to run family life in unfamiliar settings.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

I think this is one thing that everyone in my family has organised at some level over the years. Advice includes:

book early, popular places book up
have a large jigsaw puzzle, that can go in the common room. It functions as unstructured cross generational interaction.
have other non-programmed activities people can take up or put down at will and also do if they do not want to participate at that point. For instance a temporary labyrinth created the first day can be used throughout the weekend by individuals for personal prayer. At one point a coffee bar was a huge "relief" as I was over my noise tolerance level and I could sit there rather than go to the main service at which there were drummers.
Do not over programme, have times when extroverts can get together and talk while introverts can retire to their room and read.
Know that everyone is safely catered for foodwise. It would be stressful for everyone to have a child, with special dietary needs, who is not catered for.
Make sure that those with difficult hearing or partial sight, know how to access any help provided. Do not just concentrate on the obvious disabled*.
Know whether alcohol is provided on site or where the escape committee is going to escape to.
think about childminding arrangements for the evening. Parents and children will differ with what they need. Do not assume teenage kids can be safely left on their own and not checked on. An occasional adult coming in and saying "You lot OK" is probably enough but it does need doing.

Jengie

*The one I organised everyone was highly concerned about the man who had recently lost his leg that no-one realised the partially sighted woman could not join in the hymns because no-one had bothered to check she had a large print hymnbook. I know this as fairly late on it was my turn to organise prayers and I made sure she had one. She commented on it.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

Great points, thank you. We're hoping to go somewhere with optional extra activities led by staff such as biking or climbing. Non-timed activities and free time are in the plan.

I hadn't thought about organising singing together, but I think I know who to ask about that.

Cattyish, considering delegation.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
have times when extroverts can get together and talk while introverts can retire to their room and read.

How is this a 'retreat' if people are encouraged to talk?

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
have times when extroverts can get together and talk while introverts can retire to their room and read.
How is this a 'retreat' if people are encouraged to talk?

Not all retreats are silent. Sometimes, it's simply getting time away from the everyday that is important. And if children are invited, silence is pretty much impossible.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Times on retreat and times off retreat, that is how it has to be with whole church retreats. If you have children present then there will be noisy times as a matter of course. Not that children can not be silent but expecting them to be so for a weekend to me sounds Victorian.

So my suggestion is to have deliberately unprogrammed time as well as programmed. However if it is unprogrammed it has to be fairly unprogrammed. Not told that it will be to suit one particular element within the church.

Jengie

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
have times when extroverts can get together and talk while introverts can retire to their room and read.
How is this a 'retreat' if people are encouraged to talk?

Conversation can definitely be part of a retreat. My classmate and I were on our pre-priesthood retreat together a few weeks ago and it was wonderful for us to each day be able to waste time with God and waste time with each other. We both make time for each of these relationships regularly during our workaday lives, but we needed retreat to be able to get to the depths of conversation (with God and each other) that requires the leisure to waste time.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
have times when extroverts can get together and talk while introverts can retire to their room and read.
How is this a 'retreat' if people are encouraged to talk?
Conversation can definitely be part of a retreat. My classmate and I were on our pre-priesthood retreat together a few weeks ago and it was wonderful for us to each day be able to waste time with God and waste time with each other. We both make time for each of these relationships regularly during our workaday lives, but we needed retreat to be able to get to the depths of conversation (with God and each other) that requires the leisure to waste time.

So that is a sort of extended mentoring and prayer time - not the same as my query about extroverts being allowed to talk in a chatty sense.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
have times when extroverts can get together and talk while introverts can retire to their room and read.
How is this a 'retreat' if people are encouraged to talk?
Conversation can definitely be part of a retreat. My classmate and I were on our pre-priesthood retreat together a few weeks ago and it was wonderful for us to each day be able to waste time with God and waste time with each other. We both make time for each of these relationships regularly during our workaday lives, but we needed retreat to be able to get to the depths of conversation (with God and each other) that requires the leisure to waste time.
So that is a sort of extended mentoring and prayer time - not the same as my query about extroverts being allowed to talk in a chatty sense.

So extroverts should not go on retreat, nor children nor anyone whose natural environment is is somewhat social. What is more as this is a whole church retreat, they should not really be in church. Is that what you are saying Leo? because it sure sounds like it.

Jengie

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

My definition of a 'retreat' is a silent retreat. Anything else seems to me to be a dumbing down.

I suppose extroverts could be given some sort of directed talking slot - directed into something to do with spirituality rather than general gossip.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My definition of a 'retreat' is a silent retreat. Anything else seems to me to be a dumbing down.

I suppose extroverts could be given some sort of directed talking slot - directed into something to do with spirituality rather than general gossip.

Leo

That is only one definition of a retreat. It will suit some it will not suit others. Can you guarantee to me that you never day dream, or wonder "what is for tea?" or even heaven forbid do a crossword during your silent retreat, because that is about what you are asking extroverts to do?

Jengie

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I hate crosswords.

I may wonder what is for (silent) tea.

But a retreat which isn't silent isn't really a retreat.

What is the point of going some distance (and paying lots of money for) only to talk to people that you could've spoken to back at home?

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My definition of a 'retreat' is a silent retreat. Anything else seems to me to be a dumbing down.

You're not familiar with very many modalities of retreat, are you?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I know that retreat houses who are are desperate for income often dumb down' retreats'.

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alone.,

Best get used to that sooner rather than later.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

What is the point of going some distance (and paying lots of money for) only to talk to people that you could've spoken to back at home?

A lot of churchgoers don't seem to know each other all that well, though. Unless you have well-attended small groups conversations often remain at a fairly superficial level. A retreat might provide an opportunity for people to talk to each other properly.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Well the sort Cattyish is planning is more likely to be at a church centre. Although I have my suspicions that one of the really early ones I went to was at Mirfield.

Look Leo, I love silence, it is probably my drug of choice, but that does not mean that I think it is essential for everyone who goes on retreat. For those whose thinking is an external dialogue rather than an internal monologue, silence is really tedious because they can't think in it. Yes their casual natter is the same as us wondering what was for tea, it is just how they do it.

If a retreat is billed as silent then that is what I expect. However if it is billed as Music and Carvings I would not expect it to be silent somehow.

Equally a family retreat is not going to be silent.

Jengie

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alone.,

Best get used to that sooner rather than later.

To be granted entry into the communion of saints where together we lift our voices in praise. Best to get used to that sooner rather than later.

I don't know where you've gotten this idea that silent retreats are the only non-dumbed down form of retreat. Theologically, it's idolatry of silence. Historically, it's bunk.

I read over the circular letters of my community's blessed founder and I see that every year he gathered his brothers for a preached retreat. But, of course, you know better than him. What a shame he felt the need to dumb down.

I've led several retreats for seminarians that involve times of silent contemplation (often including all night adoration on the opening night), interspersed with talks, guided discussions, and times for fellowship.

The most popular retreats among students on our college campuses are the ones that treat the small group as the locus of retreat. As well as time for rest, long walks with God and adoration, they spend time talking with each other about their life in Christ, confident that where two or three are gathered Christ is present. (Of course, Our Lord and Savior was dumbing down when he said that: he really meant, escape other people if you want to find me. What a shame). And they aren't having those conversations in their dorm rooms, that's why they come on retreat, so as we can create a space for that level of sharing.

I'll admit to never having been on a church retreat. Some people at my parish have mentioned they'd like one, so I have been thinking about it. I would certainly want to provide opportunities for silence in something like that. But, I wouldn't just want thirty, say, people to be happening to make individual retreats in the same general area. If we're having a church retreat, we're doing it together as a church, called together by the Spirit. I would want to create communion out of familiarity, and I doubt if you do that by ignoring each other all week(end).

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alone.

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

Descriptions sound very like our regular parish weekends away, but nobody has ever called them 'retreats'.

They normally take place at a Christian centre which has many outdoor activities and trained staff to supervise when necessary; it's used during the week for school parties doing Outdoor Education experience.

Most group activities are very much all-ages together, with a meet and play games evening for starters – we combine with a neighbouring parish, so we get to make or renew friendships. There's a film or serious presentation of some kind on Saturday morning while the young kids have alternative activities. Afternoon is free, with kids lining up for pony rides, a huge flying fox, a mud-slide, archery etc. A group usually goes for a walk down to the beach, about a kilometre.

Evening is a hilarious concert.

Sunday morning we're in all-age groups each with a segment of the final worship to prepare. After worship we have lunch, tidy and pack up.

That's our tradition. But I don't think anyone would have thought of calling at a retreat, which to us is a different thing entirely.

GG

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alone.,

Best get used to that sooner rather than later.

And we face our brothers and sisters in Christ for eternity. Best to get used to dropping the snottiness to make that work.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My definition of a 'retreat' is a silent retreat. Anything else seems to me to be a dumbing down.

I suppose extroverts could be given some sort of directed talking slot - directed into something to do with spirituality rather than general gossip.

I am strongly introverted and had a wonderful time at a recent, non-silent retreat. It was very spiritually enriching, so it is just nonsense to say that only silent retreats are 'real' retreats.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

Silence wouldn't work for our group. It might work quite well for the children, but the beadle would never cope!

The time together, time apart thing will be important. We'll need opportunities for people to get to know each other a bit better as well as to contemplate and pray. My idea is that nothing will be compulsory, but everything should be open to everyone who wants to join in. If someone wants to come along and just sit and read the whole time then fine. If someone wants to try acrylic painting for the very first time then I suspect we could help them.

I'm hoping that we can help everyone be a part of the group, but give room for individual rest and reflection.

Cattyish, aware of the limits.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

We've done week long parish retreats to Lindisfarne, with morning prayer, communion and evening prayer. We ate together and there were morning talks about the history of Christianity on Lindisfarne with afternoons free to explore the island. We also had a guided tour of the Abbey one afternoon.

We were given a leaflet with a suggested prayer walk around the island if we wanted to explore. Some people spent the afternoons sociably, others in quiet places - walking, drawing, reading.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

This thread could do with some of the info on this one.
This thread is more concerned with church away days or weekends than 'retreats'.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Sorry Leo

Everything posted at this point makes not a blind bit of difference to this thread. The congregation is away from its usual routine and it is quite often a time that is focused corporately on an aspect of the God.

Jengie

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

But retreats are to do with individuals away from their corporate identities. You're not even allowed to phone your wife.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Some retreats are like that, some are different. Why insist that your way is the only way?

[ 19. April 2014, 18:56: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But retreats are to do with individuals away from their corporate identities. You're not even allowed to phone your wife.

The someone kidnap leo and replace him with an androcentric heterocentric individualist?

Private retreats are a thing. They're a very good thing. Community retreats are also very good things. I'm grateful for having had both in my life, and I hope to continue to have both in my life. I don't see why you can't accept that people use the word 'retreat' to cover both of these.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

The Good Retreat Guide seems to agree with me.

If anyone wants to kidnap me, take me to Walsingham out of season.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Good Retreat Guide seems to agree with me.

If anyone wants to kidnap me, take me to Walsingham out of season.

To quote from the site you just linked to:

quote:

A group retreat can be fun and a time of making new friends. Even on a private retreat you are likely to meet interesting people.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

But in context, about going deeper into the self etc., the meeting is in silence and through non-verbal communication.

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