Ship of Fools: Ascension Day?

Thread: Ascension Day? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

For Catholics and Anglicans, and Lutherans:

1) Observing it on the Thursday or transferring it to Sunday (pros or cons of either)
2) How do you preach on the Feast? DO you see it principally as an extension of Easter or an anticipation of Pentecost? Or neither.
3) Do you remove the Paschal Candle on Ascension Day?

Other
4) For other denominations, particularly Protestant churches, do you observe Ascension Day?

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Fortunately we have a children's choir which meets on a Thursday. Most weeks they rehearse, once a month they sing a simple evensong. Ascension Day always receives the latter.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I preach on Ascension as its own thing - neither an extension of Easter (although it falls within Eastertide, of course) nor an anticipation of Pentecost. I usually preach about the reunion of our humanity with divinity - united in Christ in the incarnation and then taken into heaven in the Ascension. It's an important part of the story of salvation in its own right.

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

This is one Methodist who will observe Ascension on Sunday

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Thursday, definitely Thursday. Christ ascended forty days after the Resurrection, not forty-three. Ascension Day belongs to the season of Pentecost, which begins immediately after the Easter Vigil. As for preaching, we see in the ascension the lifting up of our humanity in Christ. Christ also takes his place at the right hand of the Father where he rules his kingdom (Psalm 109: The Lord said to my Lord etc).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Why would you transfer to the Sunday? Frankly, the only reason I can think of is that you can't be arsed to have a Thursday service or your people can't be arsed to turn up to one: in both cases the answer is simple- be arsed. Even if you have several churches/ chapels you can have a service on the proper day in at least one of them, can't you?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We have a Solemn Low Mass with Hymns and Incense on Ascension Day evening - and we always invite peeps from other parishes who may not have a service on the actual day. One year (hopefully this one!) some visitors might turn up......but usually it's the Usual Suspects (our faithful weekday congregation of 10-12).

I don't like to second-guess what Father might preach about, though!

Ian J.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

Like most Catholic US dioceses, we transfer to Sunday.

Given it's over a week away, I haven't started thinking about what I'm preaching yet! But, glancing over the readings, I have a few initial thoughts. Firstly, the Acts reading definitely looks forward to Pentecost, so I will too. Both the Gospel (Matthew's Great Commission) and the Acts reading stress our role as evangelizers, so I'll definitely be preaching out of that. But, we're not meant to talk more about law than grace, or more about Church than Christ, so the real question I'll start wrestling with over the next week is: What is Jesus doing? My current hunch is "Jesus empowers us, that baptized, through the Spirit, to be his witnesses."

This is also the Sunday we have adult confirmations in this half of the diocese, so after I've presided at my parish's early Mass, I'll be heading over the cathedral with our candidates. It'll be interesting to see how Bishop handles these readings in the context of confirmation.

As for the candle, that stays through Pentecost. It's still the Easter Season.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

But again, why transfer to Sunday? Is there any reason apart from laziness or demoralisation?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But again, why transfer to Sunday? Is there any reason apart from laziness or demoralisation?

For RC's the Ascension is a day of obligation. In most countries, unfortunately, Ascension Thursday is no longer a holiday (but here in Finland it still is, luckily) so they move it to the Sunday. This is not the best solution, in my opinion. I would argue that it would be far better just to remove the obligation and serve the liturgy on the Thursday as it is meant to be.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

So, run a morning mass and an evening mass, and preople should be able to get to one or the other, no? But better as you say remove the obligation. And that still doesn't explain why churches who don't have Ascension Day as a day of obligation transfer it.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For Catholics and Anglicans, and Lutherans:

1) Observing it on the Thursday or transferring it to Sunday (pros or cons of either

Thursday. Dawn Eucharist. (Why dawn? No idea. Never head of it before this job)

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
2) How do you preach on the Feast? DO you see it principally as an extension of Easter or an anticipation of Pentecost? Or neither

It's both and more. I've summarised it into three colloqualisms as my audience will most likely be agnostic/atheist choral students that will be half asleep.

1) Right hand man
2) Friends in high places
3) Life after life after death.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
3) Do you remove the Paschal Candle on Ascension Day?

No.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Observed on the Thursday.

Morning there will be the usual mother-and-toddler communion service - with cake to mark it as 'special'.

Evening full choral service including Glorious and powerful God by Stanford.

On the Sunday following we have a family service and they will get God is gone up with a merry noise by Croft.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Benefice Sung Eucharist in the evening.

Paschal candle stays until Pentecost.

Preached thus last time.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For Catholics and Anglicans, and Lutherans:

1) Observing it on the Thursday or transferring it to Sunday (pros or cons of either)
2) How do you preach on the Feast? DO you see it principally as an extension of Easter or an anticipation of Pentecost? Or neither.
3) Do you remove the Paschal Candle on Ascension Day?

Other
4) For other denominations, particularly Protestant churches, do you observe Ascension Day?

1) ALWAYS observed on Thursday. Sunday After Ascension has its own propers.

2) Since it's normally a Low Mass, there's usually not a sermon, but I occasionally will give a short informal reflection on the day and the lessons.

3) It's not removed, but it is extinguished after the Gospel.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

In Québec Ascension Day was a holiday for many years, giving rise to the (possibly apocryphal) description of the department store notice saying "This elevator does not rise on Ascension Day."

Posted by Wm Dewy (# 16712) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

1) ALWAYS observed on Thursday. Sunday After Ascension has its own propers.

3) It's not removed, but it is extinguished after the Gospel.

[Overused]

I regret that around here, once part of the biretta belt, now proud to be protestant, Ascension Day is one of those holy days of inconvenience. My parish is not having a service. No parish within driving distance is having a Eucharist that I know of (I have checked the web sites and cobweb sites alike) and the local Romans have transferred it to Sunday for their own reasons.

On a separate thread discussing tribes and tribal customs I read about the multi-generational elders which determine a place’s churchmanship. Apparently, I boarded at a particularly high tide and the higher up the candle folk have since died, gone to Rome, become Orthodox, or just given up.

Change and decay in all around I see.

[ 24. May 2014, 20:54: Message edited by: Wm Dewy ]

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

[Angel]

Ah, I remember Ascension Day... [Tear]

Posted by Wm Dewy (# 16712) on :

So do I. Fondly. It was a Thursday.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wm Dewy:
So do I. Fondly. It was a Thursday.

At this point, I'd even consent to taking it on the Sunday. Better that than nothing.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

We're keeping it on Thursday with a Choral Eucharist - Haydn's St.Joannes de Deo as the setting and Tye's 'Eternal gates lift up their heads'

It's followed by an organ recital 'L'Ascension' by Messiaen, by candlelight I am given to understand. However I can't stand Messiaen so I won't be staying behind!

[Two face]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

We will, as usual, have a High Mass on Ascension Day and also on the Sunday following (with its own propers). We'll be singing the Peter Phillips 'Ascendit Deus' at both, don't know what the other musick will be, though one of our organists is promising/threatening Messiaen -- hope he does it!

Paschal Candle will be extinguished after the Gospel on Thursday, and removed to the baptistery after the service.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

It's our feast of title, and we keep it on the Thursday. This year the bishop is coming for the formal institution of our new rector. The dean of our deanery canceled his parish's own Ascension Day evening Mass in favor of having his parishioners attend ours. It should be quite an evening!

Posted by DangerousDeacon (# 10582) on :

Rather strangely, we are holding it on Wednesday - please, do not roll your eyes too much! There is reasoning behind the madness.

We have a weekly clergy Eucharist on Wednesdays at 7.30 am, in a Diocese which has huge distances to cover and very varied churchmanship. If I changed it to the Thursday, I would have none of the clergy - my brothers and sisters have other regular Thursday morning / evening commitments (trying to change set schedules around here involves herding cats).

As I remind my brothers and sisters, one of the four cardinal virtues is prudence (practical wisdom) - if not on Wednesday, it will be myself, two wardens and the bloke who sleeps on the porch.

So, Wednesday morning it is, with a general invite to the Cathedral parishioners to join us.

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

After some dispute in my bit of the ecclesiastical world, an Ascension Day Eucharist will be happening on the Thursday evening, but it nearly didn't, owning to the seemingly more important fact it is Half-Term week, and most of the clergy in the informal grouping of churches who get together have children and are either going away or taking holiday.

I was sympathetic to the Half-Term bit, but then the attitude emerged it didn't matter to have a Eucharist that day as "It's not a major festival"! It's OK, Eccles regulars, I expressed my opinion fully and frankly, and the offending clergy were left in absolutely no doubt they were Wrong in that opinion. What do they teach in theological colleges these days?!

Anyway, I am now voting with my feet and going to the cathedral instead, since my organ playing services are not required as it's not at my church. It will good to be in the congregation for a change!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Bloody half-term. Bloody, bloody half-term. Why is it that parents always seem to expect everything to stop because it's half-term? [brick wall]

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Bloody half-term. Bloody, bloody half-term. Why is it that parents always seem to expect everything to stop because it's half-term?

We don't. We just would like people to understand that:

a) If the children aren't at school it's harder for us to get to the stuff, especially stuff where children would be considered a distraction/would get bored etc. unless other childcare arrangements are available (preferably something at the church).

b) Schools are cracking down hard on people taking their children on holidays during term time - quite rightly. So it means school holidays are the only times we can take a family holiday.

c) If you're the one who's supposed to be leading these services it's doubly hard: either you have to cancel the service (which will be wrong); move it (which will be wrong); find someone to look after your children (which could be tricky in half term); conduct the service with your children there (which could be OK, but you're mind will be half on keeping an eye on your children and praying desperately that they don't play up).

In all this, what I'm saying is this: us parents (and especially us clergy parents whose spouses also work) are between a rock and a hard place: we're paranoid about not letting anyone down, but we're also called to look after our children and be part of the families we believe God's put us in. That creates a huge tension that's actually difficult, if not impossible, for us to fill. And what looks like us arrogantly demanding that the Ascension Day Service not happen on Thursday because we've got to look after the children is actually us thinking "Shit, everyone's expecting me to do this service and I want to do this service, but I can't cos my wife [in my case] can't get the day off work and there's nowhere else to go that I can afford, and if I ask someone else to take them they won't be able to get to the service and...".

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

I was much, much more bothered by the attitude that Ascension Day was not a major festival than it being potentially cancelled because it was Half-term, especially as there were available clergy to take the service who had not been asked to do so.

I work the academic year, so I'm well aware of the difficulties clergy families do face about holidays. As an organist, though, I'm expected to be available for those major feasts whether they fall in the school holidays or not.

Should I start a separate thread on this, though, as some of this related stuff has been bothering me for a while, and let this thread return to Ascension Day!

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For other denominations, particularly Protestant churches, do you observe Ascension Day?

Oh yes. We'll be having an early Liturgy on Thursday. It will be the festal Liturgy of the Ascension, complete with antiphons. The troparion of the feast will replace some of the regular hymns. I'm looking forward to it. Then I have to leave for work. [Frown]

Sadly, busyness means that there'll be no Vespers the night before. Double [Frown]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

So if having the kids around at half term is a problem, you have your Ascension Day service in the evening (like most churches I've ever been to), or even better, add a family/ parent & kids/ messy church one in the daytime.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

But just why is it so important to celebrate these events on the "correct" day? All right, there is Biblical precedent for counting on from Easter to Ascension (although, even then, Easter and Passover don't necessarily coincide); I also recognise that it is important in some Christian traditions.

But does it really matter if one gets the day wrong? The same would be true of other major festivals and especially Christmas, as we have no idea of the date on which Jesus was born!

BTW I actually like the rhythm of the Liturgical Year - but shouldn't it be our Servant rather than our Master?

(I suspect that this question is likely to be shoved into DH pretty pronto!)

[ 26. May 2014, 15:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

Personally, I've lived my life according to the liturgical calendar for almost all of my adult life, and I like the discipline of it. Ascension Day belongs on the Thursday and if there's nothing at my own church, I will seek out a Eucharist elsewhere on that day.

I had four years where I was not able to, owing to a long commute, and I've rejoiced that a change of job this academic year has enabled me to return to that rhythm of life.

I did, during those four years, seriously considered returning to the Baptist denomination in which I grew up. I spent the summer and autumn attending my local Baptist church, and was settling, until the start of the new Liturgical Year, and we sang Christmas Carols on Advent Sunday...I fled. I just can't do it. I returned to the Anglican fold post haste, and the comfort of the regularity of the church year.

I appreciate this kind of rhythm of life doesn't work for everyone, and is not always possible, but it does work for me when I can do it.

[ 26. May 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Japes ]

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So if having the kids around at half term is a problem, you have your Ascension Day service in the evening (like most churches I've ever been to), or even better, add a family/ parent & kids/ messy church one in the daytime.

Either of those would be ideal... but resources (especially of the people kind) would make the latter difficult.

Actually, we do celebrate Communion once a month on the evening of the fourth Thursday of the month and also on Maundy Thursday - but we're not going to have a service on Ascension Day, but will celebrate it on the the Sunday.

Which may sound perverse... but actually, the reason is that very few people will turn out for a Thursday night Communion, especially one that will fall outside of the "normal" service times. Rather than add an extra service that no one will turn up for (and I do understand the POV of those who would say you should do it anyway), I'd rather celebrate something so important with the whole church (or as much of the church as possible) there. I'd agree with Baptist Trainfan's point that probably the exact day doesn't matter so much as actually celebrating the event.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
Personally, I've lived my life according to the liturgical calendar for almost all of my adult life, and I like the discipline of it. Ascension Day belongs on the Thursday and if there's nothing at my own church, I will seek out a Eucharist elsewhere on that day.

I had four years where I was not able to, owing to a long commute, and I've rejoiced that a change of job this academic year has enabled me to return to that rhythm of life.

I did, during those four years, seriously considered returning to the Baptist denomination in which I grew up. I spent the summer and autumn attending my local Baptist church, and was settling, until the start of the new Liturgical Year, and we sang Christmas Carols on Advent Sunday...I fled. I just can't do it. I returned to the Anglican fold post haste, and the comfort of the regularity of the church year.

I appreciate this kind of rhythm of life doesn't work for everyone, and is not always possible, but it does work for me when I can do it.

My feelings exactly. I have lived by the Church kalendar for my entire life. I cannot imagine living any other way.
[Votive]

[ 26. May 2014, 18:12: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I agree that, in these post-Christian days, it may well make sense to concentrate on Sundays...... however, given that we have a small but faithful weekday congregation, it also makes sense for us to have a Eucharist on Ascension Day evening. As I have remarked before, we advertise this amongst our neighbouring parishes....... [Snigger]

Ian J.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

The local ELCA and Episcopal churches borrow the local university's non-denominational church (which can hold 1200) and have a joint Ascension service on Thursday evening. Joint choirs and an outsider preacher (Susan Briehl this year with one of the local Episcopal bishop, Mary Gray-Reeves, presiding [the church is right on the edge of a very fuzzy border between Episcopal dioceses]; they've had presiding bishops Jefferts Schori and Mark Hanson preaching in previous years).

I gather it is rather a pageant given the number of priests involved.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
My feelings exactly. I have lived by the Church kalendar for my entire life. I cannot imagine living any other way.

I don't owe by allegiance to a calendar, but a Church, which happens to have a calendar. If my local ordinary, a successor to the apostles, appointed to his post by St. Peter's successor, wants me to celebrate the Ascension on a Sunday, that's what I'll gladly do.

I happen to have a personal fondness for many elements of our calendar (more the seasons than the individual feasts, but that's a personal thing), but if that ever became more important to me than the Church hierarchic (and my place in it), something would have gone badly wrong.

[ 27. May 2014, 13:13: Message edited by: Hart ]

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Bloody half-term. Bloody, bloody half-term. Why is it that parents always seem to expect everything to stop because it's half-term?

That doesn't bother me as much as people with school connections - pupils, parents, teachers and other school staff - talking about the world in terms of the school year.

For those of us who don't work in a school, go to a school, or have children who are in school, the school year has no bearing on real life. If you want me to commit to an engagement on a certain date, then tell me the date. Don't tell me it's "the first Wednesday of half term" and expect me to have some sort of idea of when you're talking about.

My line of work has its own calendar too but I don't use it when I'm talking to people who don't work with me. Why would I do that? And why would I expect them to know when I mean?

(Walks off, muttering to self about people talking in parables).

[ 27. May 2014, 20:39: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So if having the kids around at half term is a problem, you have your Ascension Day service in the evening (like most churches I've ever been to), or even better, add a family/ parent & kids/ messy church one in the daytime.

Clergy families don't always have two parents to share childminding duties, of course. And if families go away at half term, then it doesn't matter when in the day you hold a service if the clergy aren't there.

That said, ours will be at 7.30pm on Thursday, not a normal time for a service but helped by the fact we swear in the PCC and wardens at the service. So at least they should turn up!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Ours will be at 7.30pm on Thursday, not a normal time for a service but helped by the fact we swear in the PCC and wardens at the service. So at least they should turn up!

You did say "swear in" rather than "swear at", didn't you?

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

In TEC, it is a major day. RCs would call it a feast of obligation, but most TEC people don't know that. I'll have a Mass--someone always comes, but one day I expect to celebrate alone.

I try to sing all ten (or is it 12?) verses of A&M's "See The Conqueror" at MP and EP to the tune "in babilone." Luckily only One can hear me.

In Vanuatu, it is a public holiday, so even Presbyterians and Pentecostals will all be celebrating, and the churches will be full because school will be out and the shops and banks closed.

I sort of wish they'd make the Sunday after the Ascension an alternative day for it because our ageing population barely knows it exists.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
..And if families go away at half term, then it doesn't matter when in the day you hold a service if the clergy aren't there...

I suppose it depends on how important you think Ascension Day is, but half-term or no I'd be slightly surprised if clergy who think it is important enough to celebrate would be away from their churches for it- just as I would if they were away at Christmas or Easter.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

We have two Ascension Day services - a said Eucharist in the morning and a Choral Eucharist in the evening. There are drinks and nibbles after the evening service. The children's vestry group did their talk and craft activities on the theme of the Ascension last Sunday, as they don't have a meeting on Thursday.

Another church, which is part of our team, happens to be built on top of a steep hill. So they enjoy their very relevant Ascension Day service on Thursday, especially as any low cloud will give it an authentic atmosphere! The congregants then all go back down the hill and have lunch in the pub. Imagine holding your Ascension Day service in a church like this!

Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :

Ascension Day used to be a big day for Sunday Schools here in rural west Wales. CinW parishes would take all the children up to St David's for a service at the Cathedral. The adults would wait in the Cathedral while the parish choirs and Sunday school children and teachers would gather at the Tower at the top of the hill then process down and in for the service. Most came from tiny village churches, where the music was usually provided by a wheezy harmonium, so walking up the aisle of the Cathedral whilst the organist attacked some spectacular piece with all the stops out was quite an experience.
The Baptists would also organise singing festivals, with an afternoon rehearsal service then the big one at night, with a spectacular chapel bun-fight in between. There was a long-standing tradition that it would be on Ascension Day, even though the Baptists and other non-conformists did not make much of it, liturgically speaking. I think it was just a day when the schools accepted that any children belonging to a Sunday school (of whatever flavour) would be absent. Nowadays, I know of very few churches with functioning Sunday schools, so the tradition has died out.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

1. My parish observes it with solemn mass on Thursday evening.

2. We often take the opportunity to invite guest clergy to preach on Ascension Day, so it varies.

3. The Paschal Candle remains through Whitsunday.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our (volunteer) organist and her husband are coming to tonight's Mass, so we're probably having a sung service (with Ims and Hincense) for the Edification of the Faithful.

There may be only a dozen or so present, but our (enormous/great barn of a) church building has an endearing way of absorbing/accommodating however many (or few) turn up, so that it never looks empty..... [Confused]

Ian J.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Emptiness in a church is IME a matter of quality rather than quantity. And from what you have written about your church over the years, and my experience of similar churches, I am willing to bet that it is never empty even when there is no-one there.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our (volunteer) organist and her husband are coming to tonight's Mass, so we're probably having a sung service (with Ims and Hincense) for the Edification of the Faithful.

Ian J.

So basically just a simple Gospel service then?
[Two face]

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Which may sound perverse... but actually, the reason is that very few people will turn out for a Thursday night Communion, especially one that will fall outside of the "normal" service times.

I find this this is all a matter of expectation. If the rector makes clear the importance of Ascension Day and the church's culture promotes attendance, then people will attend, regardless of the inconvenience. At my parish, we have managed to fill the building on such days using these techniques, among others.

Before Holy Week, our rector actually thundered multiple times from the pulpit about how he expected everyone to be in church every single day of that week. This turned out to be quite effective.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

The Catholic cathedral here is transferring Ascension Day to Sunday which strikes me as odd - being a cathedral, they have daily mass and so there normally isn't any transferring because even a weekday evening mass is well-attended. Since my own church always transfers to a Sunday, I often go to mass at the cathedral on feast days and wonder why this hasn't happened for today.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

It's really quite simple,Jade.The bishops of England and Wales have decided,with the permission of the Holy See,to transfer the Ascension to the Sunday following the traditional date.Thus the Ascension is celebrated in all Catholic churches of the Roman Rite on that day.
Shhh !!,but those Catholics who follow the 1962 rite will probably,with the permission of the
bishops,celebrate Ascension on the day in the 1962 Rite.
Catholic parishes do not (normally) decide things
individually.

Here in Scotland today was the Feast of the Ascension in all Catholic churches.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Is it just for the Ascension? Because I'd heard that this applied to all major feast days, but the Annunciation was celebrated on the 25th and not transferred for example.

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

This year there was no Ascension Day service at our local C of E church, which usually holds an evening Eucharist on the Thursday itself, because the vicar has been on holiday and was celebrating something else on Thursday, and no alternative provisions were made. The church on the far side of town, which I sometimes attend, used to have an Ascension Day service, but gave up because hardly anyone attended and they currently have no vicar. In past years I have gone to our Cathedral for midday communion on Ascension Day if no local church has a service, but this time I was unable to because of other daytime commitments.

This has been disappointing to say the least, as I believe Ascension Day is one of the major festivsls and want to celebrate it on the appointed day, i.e. Thursday. I find it sad that even clergy do not regard it as important enough to take precedence over personal concerns.

I believe that in the Ascension Jesus took humanity into the Godhead - now isn't that worth celebrating?

So

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Perhaps somebody can tell me the answer to this who actually knows, but I don't think in the CofE we're allowed to move Ascension Day to any other day than its normal one.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

We had a more than respectable number.

Could be that the PP's stern announcement on the last two Sundays about Ascension being one of the major feasts and therefore obligatory - and saying that all confirmation candidates and their parents had to be there - had something to do with it.

Full choir too and the populace were suitably stunned by Glorious and Powerful God. Next year maybe Finzi? [Snigger]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

18 turned up to our simple Gospel service (LOL, Stephen), which turned into a full Sung Mass - and was sung very well, I might add.

Ian J.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

We had twenty five in our small satellite church, at which the children's choir led us in a simple sung contemporary evensong. They weren't perfect, but the overall effect was sheer heaven.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
This year there was no Ascension Day service at our local C of E church, which usually holds an evening Eucharist on the Thursday itself, because the vicar has been on holiday and was celebrating something else on Thursday, and no alternative provisions were made. The church on the far side of town, which I sometimes attend, used to have an Ascension Day service, but gave up because hardly anyone attended and they currently have no vicar. In past years I have gone to our Cathedral for midday communion on Ascension Day if no local church has a service, but this time I was unable to because of other daytime commitments.

This has been disappointing to say the least, as I believe Ascension Day is one of the major festivsls and want to celebrate it on the appointed day, i.e. Thursday. I find it sad that even clergy do not regard it as important enough to take precedence over personal concerns.

I believe that in the Ascension Jesus took humanity into the Godhead - now isn't that worth celebrating?

So

Four parishes and no Ascension Day service between them? What are your clergy doing to earn their stipends? What are your people doing?

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Four parishes and no Ascension Day service between them? What are your clergy doing to earn their stipends? What are your people doing?

Now, now, Albertus, you should know that one does not earn one's stipend, one is given it irrespective of one's workload or output.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, of course, that occurred to me just after the edit window had closed! Let us say, then, 'claim their stipends with a straight face'.

[ 30. May 2014, 12:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our Priest-in-Charge is a non-stipendiary/self-supporting minister. We tell him that he's worth every penny...... [Devil]

.....but we sometimes think he actually does more work than some stipendiaries...... [Eek!]

Ian J.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Jude

I think its pretty safe to assume that the four parishes are all in the same Deanery; you've a fair chance one of the incumbents is the Rural Dean, but you may want to check before you do the obvious, which is

Write to the Archdeacon and draw to his attention the fact that a major feast was not marked - and copy the letter to the Bishop.

At the very least it shows appalling lack of co-ordination between clergy in one deanery; at worst it is evidence of flagrant ignorance of duties and/or refusal to fulfil obligations.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

A letter to the hierarchy will make someone very unpopular - why not have a word/write a letter to the clergy first?

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A letter to the hierarchy will make someone very unpopular - why not have a word/write a letter to the clergy first?

Not just good advice, but a Dominical Mandate:

quote:

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you, so that at the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector. (Matt 18:15-17)

Also, recall how Jesus treated tax collectors, and how his final words to us tell us to treat Gentiles.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

While I agree with the concern about the lack of liturgical observation of a major feast, I think I rise (predictably [Roll Eyes]

) to defend clergy.

The shrinkage in liturgical observation and emphasis is a blight on our church(es), but I know very few clergy who don't work reasonably hard to fit into the stipend God's people allow them. Somehow though they have been allowed to lose sight of the values of liturgy and worship. Ascension day being a Thursday of course it will always be a victim. I am fortunate, having a cathedral ... but in the hurly burly of life ...

The hurly burly of life is the problem. I would imaging the clergy were trapped in that endless cycle of meetings, newsletter deadlines, sermon preparation, hopefully visiting the sick ... with the slowly cultural degradation of High Days and Holy Days their focus has been marred ... it needs rejigging, absolutely, but please: no blame games.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

We had a non-Eucharistic service of praise and prayer to mark the beginning of 10 unbroken days of prayer (24 hours per day) between Ascension and Pentecost. I would have preached on Ephesians 1 and 2 but I ended up preaching on a Psalm instead.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
In past years I have gone to our Cathedral for midday communion on Ascension Day if no local church has a service, but this time I was unable to because of other daytime commitments.

This has been disappointing to say the least, as I believe Ascension Day is one of the major festivsls and want to celebrate it on the appointed day, i.e. Thursday. I find it sad that even clergy do not regard it as important enough to take precedence over personal concerns.

I believe that in the Ascension Jesus took humanity into the Godhead - now isn't that worth celebrating?

So

It is very much worth celebrating, but what were your midday commitments which were such as to take precedence over your attendance? One of the churches you refer to has no incumbent - it's not surprising that there was no celebration there. The rector at your local church had another matter to attend to - but from the sound if it, that was within his usual duties. You don't say precisely. But there was a service at your cathedral, and you chose not go to that.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
... it needs rejigging, absolutely, but please: no blame games.

Hear, hear. I'll not be popular, but I'll say it anyway: it should just be transferred to Easter 7, permanently.

The "new" lectionary stresses Sunday of the Passion simply because it is assumed that enough will not be present on Good Friday. Ascension should be given the same treatment. Sure, allow for it to be observed on Thursday, but demand it be observed on Sunday if the Thursday option was not utilized.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yup. Put Christmas Day on a Sunday too, why don't you? [Roll Eyes]

Or better still, just roll up everything onto four or five Sundays a year, all conveniently chosen not to coincide with school and public holidays, likely sunny weather, major sporting events, and so on- then nobody, clergy or laity, has to be arsed to do anything very much...

[ 31. May 2014, 11:15: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

Gee D - Starting by defending my actions, or lack of, my other commitments involved family. Our cathedral is forty minutes away by rail with two trains per hour, close together. So a trip into the city for a short communion service would become a mid-morning start, lunch afterwards and return mid-afternoon.

Although there are four Anglican churches here, there are at present only two incumbents. They certainly "earn their keep" with the amount of work they do, not only in the parishes but in other roles in the diocese. However, the fact that, the vicar being away, no arrangements were made to cover the Ascension Day service is something I feel was very remiss.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

And we come back to the question- what else was the vicar celebrating, that took precedence over Ascension Day? True, Oakapple Day fell on Ascension this year, but I think it highly unlikely he would have been celebrating that and even if he was it wouldn't outrank a major feast!

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I'm with you, Albertus.

The Ascension is a major feast and so the first priority of clergy should be to celebrate that: meetings and other things must give way to marking the feast.

As for meetings being more important than a celebration of the Eucharist (at whatever time of day) - that attitude may be part of the reason why the pews are so empty, because if the clergy can't be arsed to fulfil obligations why should the laity.

But then I recall a sometime fixture of General Synod some years ago (went from parish in the south to an archdeaconry oop north) who, because it fell on his day off, made no provision for his parish's patronal festival to be marked. Fortunately for us the neighbouring parish (3 churches, at that time only 2 clergy) was marking St Peter's feast so we all trooped down the hill.

IMO all clergy should do their utmost to ensure that (a) they say Morning and Evening prayer in their church at an advertised time, and (b) ensure that major feasts are marked on the day with at least an early morning eucharist - regardless of days off, etc.

In my own place we had full choir (20 adults) plus organist, plus all 9 confirmation candidates and their parents, plus c 40 congregation at the evening service; in the morning there were 8 parents with 15 children at the playgroup service.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It's really quite simple,Jade.The bishops of England and Wales have decided,with the permission of the Holy See,to transfer the Ascension to the Sunday following the traditional date.Thus the Ascension is celebrated in all Catholic churches of the Roman Rite on that day.
Shhh !!,but those Catholics who follow the 1962 rite will probably,with the permission of the
bishops,celebrate Ascension on the day in the 1962 Rite.
Catholic parishes do not (normally) decide things
individually.

Here in Scotland today was the Feast of the Ascension in all Catholic churches.

The 1962 missal and kalendar contain a number of differences from the current missal and kalendar. When the Extraordinary Form is followed, its kalendar is used. Therefore, no special permission is needed from bishops to observe Ascension Thursday. The same goes for Septuagesima, Christ the King, Sundays after Epiphany and Pentecost, certain saints' days, etc.

In the US, the situation is even murkier. The bishops' conference, sensitive to charges that they were getting wimpy about observing holy days of obligation, left it up to the bishops of each province to decide. The result is that all of the dioceses in the states of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Nebraska observe Ascension Thursday, while the dioceses in the other forty states observe Ascension Sunday. Makes for great confusion, especially when people travel. [brick wall]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

As I've said upthread, I'm a Nonconformist who likes to follow the Church Year although rather less rigorously than others on this thread.

Now, Jade told us that "the vicar had been on holiday and was celebrating something else on Thursday" but didn't tell us what that "something else" was, and indeed may not have known.

Since then we have been very critical of this poor person who, in the face of it, does seem to have been a bit remiss in their duties, at least within the Anglican tradition if not mine (we don't usually have Ascension Day services).

But none of us here is actually in full possession of the facts - so perhaps said person was tied up with something that they quite genuinely could not get out of. Can't we at least give them the benefit of the doubt?

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Since the 8th of June is Pentecost Sunday this year, it is best not to move Ascension to that Sunday. Some Lutherans may use 1 June for Ascension, but I think the majority will just skip it.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yup. Put Christmas Day on a Sunday too, why don't you?
Or better still, just roll up everything onto four or five Sundays a year, all conveniently chosen not to coincide with school and public holidays, likely sunny weather, major sporting events, and so on- then nobody, clergy or laity, has to be arsed to do anything very much...

Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I searched the Lutheran and Episcopal churches in a 50-mile area to find an Ascension Day (Thursday) liturgy. How many did I find? Two, both Episcopal. One was a low mass, and the other a pontifical high mass that was a bit too far and a bit too late for me to travel on a work night. Face facts, we've lost.

(My denom's calendar already allows transferral to 7 Easter, which is always the Sunday after Ascension, and should take the Ascension preface even if observed as 7 Easter anyway.)

[ 31. May 2014, 23:04: Message edited by: Olaf ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Gee D - Starting by defending my actions, or lack of, my other commitments involved family. Our cathedral is forty minutes away by rail with two trains per hour, close together. So a trip into the city for a short communion service would become a mid-morning start, lunch afterwards and return mid-afternoon.

Although there are four Anglican churches here, there are at present only two incumbents. They certainly "earn their keep" with the amount of work they do, not only in the parishes but in other roles in the diocese. However, the fact that, the vicar being away, no arrangements were made to cover the Ascension Day service is something I feel was very remiss.

Lucky you to have a train service to the cathedral city with only 40 minutes to travel. Had I not been out of Sydney to work, the nearest cathedral city to have offered a service would have been a 2 hours plus train trip from home (90 minutes by car), with a change necessary. AS it was, I was able to attend a 6pm service not far from where I was staying.

What I was saying is that you gave priority to your commitments but expected others to give up their commitments to provide a service at a time suitable to you. As congregations shrink over the next decade, there will be fewer and fewer local parishes. The consequence will be that we may well have to travel a bit further to find any service at all, even on Sunday.

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

Celebrated Ascension today!

And sang " And didst thou love the race that loved not thee...."

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As I've said upthread, I'm a Nonconformist who likes to follow the Church Year although rather less rigorously than others on this thread.

Now, Jade told us that "the vicar had been on holiday and was celebrating something else on Thursday" but didn't tell us what that "something else" was, and indeed may not have known.

Since then we have been very critical of this poor person who, in the face of it, does seem to have been a bit remiss in their duties, at least within the Anglican tradition if not mine (we don't usually have Ascension Day services).

But none of us here is actually in full possession of the facts - so perhaps said person was tied up with something that they quite genuinely could not get out of. Can't we at least give them the benefit of the doubt?

I think I'd be inclined to agree with most of this - we've no idea of the circumstances and I don't particularly want to rush to judgment - there could be all sorts of reasons
Having said that, there does seem something not quite right about a place with four Anglican churches not having one celebration on an important day - and it would have to be in the evening as Ascension Day is not a public holiday in the UK and people work during the day. I'm not in favour of complaining to the hierarchy at the least thing, but there is a reason for a hierarchy, that of oversight, which did not seem to be working terribly well on this particular occasion
In our benefice for instance we have three different churches not too far away from each other but one celebration, and this seems reasonable particularly when you have two clergy to cover three churches. We normally have a lunchtime daily Eucharist but this was cancelled in order to encourage people to attend the evening one
Which leads me on to another point......It strikes me that we're not terribly good at publicity. I think it's not enough these days just to publicise the service in the weekly pewsheet and/or parish magazine......it needs to be pushed more verbally I think - not in the sense of threatening hell-fire and damnation but more in the way of making a point in the announcements.There are probably all sorts of other things people can think of too. It could be argued this is spoon-feeding but I think this is the way of the world we live in unfortunately. I belong to a couple of organisations - not church ones - so perhaps this is a bit more obvious to me than it otherwise be
Just some thoughts......

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

The Church of England lists 9 feasts on which Communion must be celebrated in every cathedral and parish church according to canon 14, which can only be dispensed with in accordance of B14A Ascension is one of these 9 and the only which can be transferred to a Sunday is All Saints' Day (whereas the Annunciation is transferred away from Sundays and Holy & Easter Weeks). Thus there should be provision. We had our usual lunchtime communion (with normal attendence) and then a Sung Eucharist for the Deanery in the evening. The vicar was on holiday so we had Deanery clergy preaching and presiding. We had about 70 communicants which was good.

Carys

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Oh that's excellent - about double ours I think.
Did you have cheese and biscuits and wine afterwards?
Ate all the wrong things...... [Devil]

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

I don't put transferring festivals/not doing them at all solely to clergy. The "hardly anyone will turn up" mindset is dominant among laity as well, including many on PCCs I have known, who in fact are saying that they won't turn up. Generally I believe that the Divine Litury if offered for God, not ourselves as such, and that if we believe enough in it others will follow. (Saying that, the Orthodox church here have no alternative than not to do all services on Sundays; the attendance for Holy Friday Vespers was very low)

I went to the 6pm Mass at my local RC church. That the epistle was from Ephesians got my suspicions high, and that the Gospel was from John confirmed that the festival had indeed been transferred. I decided the stay. The priest did his sermon on "problems that Poland face", which included abortion, and that "90% of Russian woman in Warsaw don't speak Polish".

The Pascal Candle wasn't lit.

Generally, it was nice that there was a Mass taking place and that people were there and everything, but it was a bit haphazard. Still, at the end, we went on our knees before the Blessed Sacrament and sung a long hymn to the Mother of God (well, that and 282 of her other titles), complete with an Agnus Dei.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I've never made a hell call, but this steers me close. I think I'll have a cup of coffee instead.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Oh that reminds me - the Paschal candle was lit. It was lit today as well so presumably it'll stay until Pentecost. I couldn't quite remember what we did......

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Happy to report: that our TEC parish had a morning low mass and an evening high mass on Ascension DAY, with respectable (if not overflowing) attendance in the evening. Refreshments to follow were announced, but did not appear. [Frown]

UNhappy to report: that based on web-sites and newspaper ads, we were the only TEC parish in the city to provide a celebration of the feast.

(We had Easter 7, AKA Sunday after Ascension, today. So we got to sing all the Ascension hymns we couldn't work in on Thursday night. [Yipee]

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I've never made a hell call, but this steers me close. I think I'll have a cup of coffee instead.

My pastor did come through for us today, and we had Easter 7 with Ascension undertones.

I'm sorry, Zappa. I know many great ordained men and women. It is frustrating on the part of the non-ordained on occasions like this. If you want to offer a 20-minute Mass on Ascension, you can. I can't.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Reporting in late to say that we celebrated the Ascension last Thursday evening at the high altar with a congregation gathered from all the villages of Summerisle, most of the chapel folk, the URC minister (who preached a very decent sermon), a lot of hymns, and a young lady playing a bit of Mozart on the flute during communion. A quick flip through the register, and I saw that the congregation was bigger by 10 than last year's.

Most of the same hymns appeared yesterday when we had the propers for the Sunday after Ascension--though it being the first Sunday of the month there was piano and guitars at one of the churches and so we also sang 'Highway to Heaven' and 'Steal Away.'

The Paschal candle was lit.

When Crown Him With Many Crowns appeared again on the Evensong menu I put my foot down.

[ 02. June 2014, 05:58: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

OLAF hell

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
My pastor did come through for us today, and we had Easter 7 with Ascension undertones.

I noted in the readings for yesterday (the Seventh Sunday of Easter) that the first reading was the Ascension story, again. I can't remember if this is normal. The RCL had us reading Jesus' dialogue in John about the sending of the Paraclete before Ascension.

[ 02. June 2014, 09:35: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

The Ascension story from Acts was the compulsory 1st or 2nd reading; the Gospel, however, was John 17 yesterday, whereas on Thursday it was from Luke.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I've never made a hell call, but this steers me close. I think I'll have a cup of coffee instead.

I try to avoid Hell so I'll say it here:

For some, this is stating 'the bleedin' obvious' but many denizens of Ecclesiantics are living in the past.

When I was confirmed, we were told to go to the Eucharist every Sunday and 'Holy Day of Obligation'. Even the evangelical church in my home town observed every 'red letter day' with an 11am Holy Communion.

Then came the 1960s where all rules were suspect.

The 1970s and 80s where more divorces led to fathers only having access to their children on a Sunday.

Sunday sport and Sunday shopping in the 90s and beyond.

These days, lots only come to church on alternate Sundays.

Weekday festivals don't get much of a look in - lots of people are working lots of overtime, often in fear of losing their jobs in today's economic situation.

And, let's face it, many don't believe in the ascension anyway.

Our cluster of 7 churches had an evening Eucharist which was sparsely attended. Of the two churches I know best, there was nobody from one church and only two from the other.

Carys, above, mentioned a deanery service with 70 people. There are about 21 churches in that deanery so that equals roughly 3 from each church.

If the average age of a C of E churchgoer is 62 - which is my age, then today's clergy are ministering to an increasingly elderly population with old-fashioned expectations.

Meanwhile, the clergy might be much younger, probably running two or three churches. Their spouses have a full-time job with overtime so they have children to put to bed after supervising their homework, bedtime stories etc.

Are we to expect them to add to the strains in their marriage by taking a service to which very few will come?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Brutally, yes, because that's what they signed up to do. I mean, quite a lot of Sunday services don't have many people there either. Why not knock those on the head too? And then visiting- well, that's only reaching one or two people at a time, isn't it, so that's obviously not a good use of their time. And they can't be expected to be able to deal with all the church and building admin because that's not their primary skillset, so find someone in the parish/ diocesan office who can. Then the clergy can spend all their time, um, attending to their family lives. [Mad]

[ 02. June 2014, 14:37: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I might remind you that this thread is about Ascension Day. Discussion of whether such services are held and why or why not can be seen as within its remit but the more general question of how the clergy spend their time would require a thread of its own.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
We had a non-Eucharistic service of praise and prayer to mark the beginning of 10 unbroken days of prayer (24 hours per day) between Ascension and Pentecost.

Careful! That's very close to a Novena!

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Actually Matt I've sometimes heard it said that this is how novenas were developed - with reference to the nine days of prayer for the Holy Spirit. Not sure if it is true or not but it does fit very neatly!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I've never made a hell call, but this steers me close. I think I'll have a cup of coffee instead.
I try to avoid Hell so I'll say it here:

For some, this is stating 'the bleedin' obvious' but many denizens of Ecclesiantics are living in the past.

They're certainly living in a reality I don't recognise, where it actually matters ao much that the clergy should be run ragged if the Ascension is celebrated in the church a few days later. It's like quibbling on a £300 restaurant bill for a massive group of people who had the spiced poppadum and who had the plain one costing 10p less...

[ 04. June 2014, 11:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
They're certainly living in a reality I don't recognise, where it actually matters ao much that the clergy should be run ragged if the Ascension is celebrated in the church a few days later.

Hang on - if we're talking about holding mid-week Eucharists for major feasts such as Ascension, there simply aren't that many. "Run ragged" simply cannot be a reasonable description of the difference caused by a couple of extra midweek services a year.

It also seems like everyone is agreeing that all clergy would dearly love to celebrate Ascension on the Thursday if 50 people were going to show up.

The actual question, it seems to me, is what should be done in the (rather common) case that the congregation for an Ascension service on Thursday evening would be two pious old ladies and the rectory cat. Some people would argue that the priest should offer the service anyway. Others argue that running a service for two people is silly.

But talk of "run ragged" in this context misses the point, I think. A priest who is "run ragged" by being asked to offer one additional service every blue moon is run ragged anyway, with or without that final straw.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I refer you back to leo's post, which explains the potential problem with midweek services.

I just can't get into the mindset of caring that much about it being Sunday instead of Thursday. Don't folk have more pressing issues to get excited about?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I refer you back to leo's post, which explains the potential problem with midweek services.

Yes, I know. My post says that probably two people would turn up. I agree with leo that, these days, most people will not come to a midweek service (and if people don't turn out for midweek services in Holy Week, they're never going to turn out for Ascension.)

But you're making the assumption that we shouldn't bother with sparsely-attended services, and as we see from the discussion on this thread, that assumption is not universally held.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

No, I'm more saying that it's not worth getting ones knickers in a twist if ones parish priest decides it's not worth the bother for whatever reaaon.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Which takes us back to a question I posted three months ago.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The Thursday evening Ascension Day service here is followed by the Team AGM in the church. The church is part of a Team and this allows the Team AGM follow on from the Annual Parish Council Meetings of the individual churches as they all have to happen in April. It makes for a three line whip on the attendance on all the Team Committees, incoming and outgoing, which are a mixture of laity and clergy. I have no idea what the attendance was like this year because I was in Scotland, but it's usually around 30-40, no choir although choir members attend, sermon and communion service.

But this is a church that has evening services on Monday to Thursday of Holy Week and a 2pm service on Good Friday, the other team churches usually only have Good Friday services.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Ascension Day (along with the Epiphany, if it should fall on a weekday) seems to me to be a Good Opportunity to get a group of local parishes together for a joint service. It may take a bit of organising/three-line-whipping, but worth it, nevertheless, if it gets a few people out of their usual pews/churches, and worshipping together, no?

Ian J.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I've never made a hell call, but this steers me close. I think I'll have a cup of coffee instead.
I try to avoid Hell so I'll say it here:

For some, this is stating 'the bleedin' obvious' but many denizens of Ecclesiantics are living in the past.

Eh, but so what?

The Mass is still the Mass. If only one person shows up, it is still worth doing.

If clergy are in the church, they can certainly manage to take 25 minutes twice a day out of their schedule of meetings or whatever they're doing to say the Office. In the church.

They're priests, damn it.

Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :

I was at a cathedral church in the Grim North upon Ascension Day where the service was celebrated with great aplomb (started later than was advertised, but hey-ho) with a very healthy congregation and possibly more incense than I have ever experienced in my life. Ever. Good hymns, too.

There had been a conference in the cathedral during the day which no doubt swelled the numbers (possibly somewhat unused to the smells) but the "quire congregation" which I took to be regulars were not insubstantial. For England. For a Thursday.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.

I've never made a hell call, but this steers me close. I think I'll have a cup of coffee instead.
I try to avoid Hell so I'll say it here:

For some, this is stating 'the bleedin' obvious' but many denizens of Ecclesiantics are living in the past.
Eh, but so what?

The Mass is still the Mass. If only one person shows up, it is still worth doing.

If clergy are in the church, they can certainly manage to take 25 minutes twice a day out of their schedule of meetings or whatever they're doing to say the Office. In the church.

They're priests, damn it.

The office, yes. But under Anglican rubrics they cannot say Mass without at least one other person present.

[ 06. June 2014, 02:11: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
The office, yes. But under Anglican rubrics they cannot say Mass without at least one other person present.

Sure. Which is why I said, when referring to Mass, "if only one person shows up." [Smile]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Good point. I think. Maths is not my strong field. [Ultra confused]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Ascension Day was very popular with the younger, fitter members of the church when I was a child, because they got to climb up to the top of the church tower and out onto the roof, to sing. I guess health and safety would have a fit these days.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Holey Moley they would have fun on my 38 meter (125 foot) tower ...

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Ascension Day was very popular with the younger, fitter members of the church when I was a child, because they got to climb up to the top of the church tower and out onto the roof, to sing. I guess health and safety would have a fit these days.

At a camp for primary children a pulley system was used to hoist a child up to the roof (no ceiling) of the building. Said child, dressed as Jesus, was actually wrapped in a sheet which became entangled in the pulleys and ropes halfway up. He remained dangling there while a ladder long enough to reach him was found

Definitely not H&S friendly these days.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Ascension Day was very popular with the younger, fitter members of the church when I was a child, because they got to climb up to the top of the church tower and out onto the roof, to sing.

... and then dropping their teddies down by Parachute? [Devil]

[ 08. June 2014, 07:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Snigger, I used to run the pram service on a Thursday, and used a helium balloon to ascend Jesus into the roof of the church on Ascension Day. One time I was distracted when tying the balloon to a table leg before running the crafty bit of the session and one of the toddlers released it. So we had several weeks of a balloon sitting in the roof before it deflated and descended. I did rather hope it would descend for Pentecost, but it lasted a bit longer than that. Long enough for one of the church wardens to get itchy fingers with an air gun to help it on its way down. He had to be dissuaded from doing so regularly as it would have damaged the roof too badly.

Unfortunately, all I did was giggle when I saw it for the weeks it remained aloft. And I got banned from doing it again (not that it stopped me, I just made sure I wasn't distracted at the wrong moment the next time).

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

I spoke upthread of our vicar's more pressing engagement than Ascension Day service. It was his/her birthday - shhh. don't tell!

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

Besides not celebrating the Ascension, that church, which is the leading church of the town, did not celebrate Pentecost last Sunday. [Confused]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

oic. Mebbe it's not really a leading church of the region.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Besides not celebrating the Ascension, that church, which is the leading church of the town, did not celebrate Pentecost last Sunday.

Okay, I am at a loss. Even the non-denominational, evangelical church that I was raised in had a special observation for Pentecost.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Do they observe Christmas?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Besides not celebrating the Ascension, that church, which is the leading church of the town, did not celebrate Pentecost last Sunday.

In that case, and bearing in mind that the Vicar put his birthday ahead of Ascension Day, sod all that eirenic stuff upthread about raising the matter tactfully and sensitively with him. This is an office holder failing to carry out the basic duties which might be reasonably expected of him. As (I think) l'organist suggested, a sharp letter to the Archdeacon, copied to the Bishop, is called for.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

We have a long-standing principle in Ecclesiantics that we do not use this board to discuss the internal affairs of particular parishes. By all means discuss the general provision of worship on Ascension Day (or even by extension other holy days) but it is not appropriate for us to be conducting some sort of investigation into the liturgical practice of Jude's vicar or his/her parish.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Thanks, seasick, received and understood, although something in this line was raised earlier and IIRC went unchallenged- hence my thinking it was OK.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

There's always a hostly judgement to make about whether we let something go or whether we call it. We let it go the first time but now it's resurfaced it gets called.

You should also be aware that any comments on host posts ought to be done in the Styx not on the thread in question.

As you were.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Not commenting on your hosting at all, Seasick. Absolutely take your point about judgements to be made.

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