Thread: Couldn't Mystery Worship & Behaviour of MC Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :
 
I snuck in to St Gabriel's Pimlico on Monday and saw the installation of their new vicar. I was late and was near the back so can't Mystery Worship it for shipmates. I was amazed by the display. The Bishop of London was there and looked splendid. He presided at the mass and did the swearing of oaths, etc. The Bishop of Fulham was there as well and preached (mostly about St Stephen's House and how the new vicar was made of steel!). But what really caught my eye was the MC. He was everywhere! He swirled around left and right, nodding and pointing, and I kept on thinking about "Did anything distract you" from Mystery Worship reports. Yes! Surely an MC should be almost unnoticeable? There to oil the wheels but not steal (steel?!) the show. I wonder what the Bishop of London thought about it all. There were lots of other nice things going on. The children from the school sang during communion, and there was very loud organ music. There were legal people in wigs, and lots of priests (no women mind!), but I had to get my train so couldn't stay for too long so can't tell you about the party afterwards. Hope someone else can write a proper report? Perhaps they did not notice the MC as much as I did!
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Erm. Who and what is an MC at an installation of a vicar in the CoE? MC = Master of Ceremonies? At the installation of our vicar in California, a program was printed up and everyone followed it and followed the lead of the bishop. Simples.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
A good MC is like a good butler -- he ensures that everything happens smoothly and without a hitch, but he stays very much in the background.

I've seen good MCs handle things quite adequately with just a slight nod of the head or a barely perceptible flick of the wrist.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I have had to be careful not to get mixed up; the recently MWed Pimlico church is that of St. James the Less and apparently of a different churchmanship.

I have had a quick look at their website and the new Priest is Fr. Owen Higgs SSC, whom I don't know or know of. The letters after his name stand for something like Societas Sanctae Crucis, which is Latin for Society of the Holy Cross - so yes, an organistion for anglo-catholic and forward-in-faith male clergy.

That said, a Master of Ceremonies, if the Mass or other service is elaborate, needs to have his brain in gear at all times and needs to be two-hundred per cent certain that he knows what every-one is doing - no daydreaming - and to see that every detail of the ceremonial is dead right.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
A good MC is like a good butler -- he ensures that everything happens smoothly and without a hitch, but he stays very much in the background.

I've seen good MCs handle things quite adequately with just a slight nod of the head or a barely perceptible flick of the wrist.
And unless something's going wrong and the MC needs to help fix it, the MC should be doing his/her own standard ceremonial (places to stand, cues to give, objects to move, etc.). I've seen the "swanning" type of MC who loves to glide about, especially before Mass, always finding something to attend to at the other end of the church so as to appear very busy indeed and have another chance to practice the flow of the cassock down a side aisle. Our MCs set things up very unobtrusively.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
As indeed does our MC (who is also our Sacristan and Head Server - she is good at multi-tasking!). The less obvious y'all are at the sharp end (aka the Sanctuary), the better, IMNSHO.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I might add that I have a great admiration for MCs who cope with the three biretta trick, when there are three sacred ministers or concelebrants. They have to remember which biretta is which and have to handle these and put them to one side when wearers take them off and pick them up again, when they put them back on their heads again.
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
Serious question: why do you need an MC?
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Serious question: why do you need an MC?
Highly desirable at a service with elaborate ceremonial, to keep things from going awry. Hardly needed usually at a spoken service.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Perhaps not, but at our usual Parish Mass these days (with just thurifer and MC) he/she is worth his/her weight in gold, just to keep things moving along!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Unlike a good butler however, this MC in the OP seems to be the star of the show. A true gentleman's gentleman would never be noticed, unless he wasn't there.

[ 05. June 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 
Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :
 
I MC regularly and try to be as unobtrusive as possible. Unfortunatley with congenital idiots for servers its very difficult to be unobtrusive. No matter how many times I rehearse them and run through the ceremonial with them and what they should be doing and when and how they should be doing it I might as well save my time and my breath.
It is very difficult to think for 3 other people. The ideal intuition would be if I could split myself into four and do the lot.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I'm with you Sioni: an MC (if there is a genuine need) should be like Peter Wimsey's Bunter: multi-talented but unobtrusive.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Incensed tells us about:
We're sure there was plenty of other mayhem and confusion, onstage and off.

Maybe the MC was a swan, but it's just as likely that nobody properly planned this thing out and it teetered on the brink and only the MC kept it from sliding into the crapper.

Or, maybe they just printed a bulletin and assumed that—simples!—everything would be hunky dory if they just followed the bishop's lead.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Serious question: why do you need an MC?
For the same reason you need a marshal at a parade.

[ 05. June 2014, 23:54: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 
Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
There are a heap of pictures of the event on their Facebook page.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
a Master of Ceremonies, if the Mass or other service is elaborate, needs to have his brain in gear at all times and needs to be two-hundred per cent certain that he knows what every-one is doing - no daydreaming - and to see that every detail of the ceremonial is dead right.
... and any priest (or bishop) who disregards an MC will spend eternity in the deepest depths of hell, withered by a glare of which Satan herself would be proud [Two face]
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
a Master of Ceremonies, if the Mass or other service is elaborate, needs to have his brain in gear at all times and needs to be two-hundred per cent certain that he knows what every-one is doing - no daydreaming - and to see that every detail of the ceremonial is dead right.
... and any priest (or bishop) who disregards an MC will spend eternity in the deepest depths of hell, withered by a glare of which Satan herself would be proud [Two face]
Now I know why we from other traditions don't have them.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Devils Advocate:
I MC regularly and try to be as unobtrusive as possible. Unfortunatley with congenital idiots for servers its very difficult to be unobtrusive. No matter how many times I rehearse them and run through the ceremonial with them and what they should be doing and when and how they should be doing it I might as well save my time and my breath.
It is very difficult to think for 3 other people. The ideal intuition would be if I could split myself into four and do the lot.
'Congenital idiots,' you say.
One of my serving team has a learning disability. He does need to be reminded of things from week to week, and needs what sometimes seems like a lot of thanks and praise. He would pick up on impatience and irritation in an instant, and that would be the end of his careful and devoted serving.

Back to the OP. MCs should be inconspicuous, but I can see that this was a very rich meal of a service, and the butler might not have been able to manage it all with a nod and a wink--especially since they're unlikely to have had enough opportunity to rehearse.
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
[QUOTE]'Congenital idiots,' you say.
One of my serving team has a learning disability. He does need to be reminded of things from week to week, and needs what sometimes seems like a lot of thanks and praise. He would pick up on impatience and irritation in an instant, and that would be the end of his careful and devoted serving.
Good post, Amos.

Why does it have to be so ordered down to the last nod? Didn't Jesus have something to say about Pharisees and "jots and tittles" - being more worried about the small stuff yet ignoring the biggest issues of selfishness (yes, that could be that you Mr MC drawing attention to yourself) and lack of love (towards those who some see as "disabled")?

Are you more worried about the ceremony or who you are worshipping?

I'd happier if a few things don't quite go to plan and everyone feels drawn into worship and closer to God, than I am in an environment of steely accuracy, directed by an MC who might just be enjoying the stage and exercising his power over the "ordained" people present.

To describe people as "idiots" does rather demonstrate that the MC in question on the Ship perhaps needs to be invited by his Priest to reconsider his role. At the moment, it's not exactly an inclusive (ie gospel) attitude.

If
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
But it comes back, doesn't it, to how the MC does their job? It can- should- be about enabling and helping people- such as, perhaps, the server with learning difficulties- to do what they're doing as well as they possibly can. It's entirely possible to do, or try to do, things to a high standard and still be inclusive- think of the effect that a good conductor/ director/ coach can have on a choir, band, orchestra, dramatic society, or sports team.
 
Posted by Tulfes (# 18000) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But it comes back, doesn't it, to how the MC does their job? It can- should- be about enabling and helping people- such as, perhaps, the server with learning difficulties- to do what they're doing as well as they possibly can. It's entirely possible to do, or try to do, things to a high standard and still be inclusive- think of the effect that a good conductor/ director/ coach can have on a choir, band, orchestra, dramatic society, or sports team.
Good post Albertus. I agree.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
a Master of Ceremonies, if the Mass or other service is elaborate, needs to have his brain in gear at all times and needs to be two-hundred per cent certain that he knows what every-one is doing - no daydreaming - and to see that every detail of the ceremonial is dead right.
... and any priest (or bishop) who disregards an MC will spend eternity in the deepest depths of hell, withered by a glare of which Satan herself would be proud [Two face]
Now I know why we from other traditions don't have them.
Advantages and disadvantages in everything.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
We don't usually encourage the discussion of affairs of particular congregations except in the context of official Mystery Worship reports.

Perhaps this thread could instead be used as a place to discuss the roles of MCs, or how to organise large and/or elaborate church ceremonies in general?

I'd also add that language like 'congenital idiots' leaves a very bad taste in the mouth. Please can comments like that be avoided in future, Devil's Advocate.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Why does it have to be so ordered down to the last nod? Didn't Jesus have something to say about Pharisees and "jots and tittles" - being more worried about the small stuff yet ignoring the biggest issues of selfishness (yes, that could be that you Mr MC drawing attention to yourself) and lack of love (towards those who some see as "disabled")?

Are you more worried about the ceremony or who you are worshipping?
I like boxed Mac & Cheese. But once in a while, it's nice to go all out with a nice table cloth, the good china, wine, and a multi-course meal.

I see this similarly. As a splurge or a special occasion, going all out is perfectly acceptable.
 
Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Why does it have to be so ordered down to the last nod? Didn't Jesus have something to say about Pharisees and "jots and tittles" - being more worried about the small stuff yet ignoring the biggest issues of selfishness (yes, that could be that you Mr MC drawing attention to yourself) and lack of love (towards those who some see as "disabled")?

Are you more worried about the ceremony or who you are worshipping?

I'd happier if a few things don't quite go to plan and everyone feels drawn into worship and closer to God, than I am in an environment of steely accuracy, directed by an MC who might just be enjoying the stage and exercising his power over the "ordained" people present.
The thing is, in many ways (being a good Baptist like you) I completely agree with you on this sentiment. I'm not entirely comfortable with everything being "stage managed" to the point that people are shut out from it (though I'm sure there are people who are "drawn in" by something like that). I think there does need to be that little bit of room for things not to happen quite as planned, for things to "go wrong", for the unexpected to happen.

But... if my sermon's careless in either planning or delivery (and the two are often linked), then I'm my own worst critic. If I feel I'm waffling in my prayers, or using words carelessly or without thought, or they're just becoming a list or announcements pretending to be prayers, then that bothers me - probably more than it does the congregation. If I feel I've just stuck in a hymn without there being a reason for us to sing that hymn at that point in the service, then I'd want to change it, even if it's too late.

I want these things to be right - not at all costs, but I do. Not because I want to worship the ceremony rather than God, not because I think the world will end if they're not (and heaven knows I've made enough mistakes leading worship in my short time doing it) but because... I think it's important to get things more or less right. I think it's good to be careful about our worship (while recognising the grace of God when things are less than 100% - which they always are!).

I've a horrible feeling I could become full-on Liturgical if I stick around here too long...
 
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :
 
I feel like some people aren't getting what the MC is for. He or she is an essential part of celebrating a high mass, just the same as 2 acolytes, a crucifer, and a thurifer. And in no situation would he or she be "over" the clergy. The clergy, usually, are going to know the liturgy inside and out, and the MC allows them to concentrate on other things. If a priest doesn't know it inside and out then he or she is usually grateful for the prompting and help. In any case, it lets the priest relax and simply fulfill the priestly roll, the crucifer fulfill that roll, etc.

The priest, is in "control" not the MC. The MC's "control" is not at all the the mindset in any parish I've ever been in who uses MCs. I don't think anybody who had that mindset would easily be promoted to MC to begin with.

[deleted duplicate post]

[ 07. June 2014, 07:45: Message edited by: seasick ]
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
I would largely agree with ExclamationMark and Stejjie. Orderly worship need not be regimented, but what some may class as "disorderly" is simply that which doesn't conform to a particularly conservative mindset of doing things the Right Way(TM).

Yet even for a relatively laid-back approach to church, there is still a lot of work goes into making things run, which can be quite sacrificial work for those involved. At the pentecostal church I used to go to, it wouldn't be unknown for the some people to be in the building at 6am, setting things up for a 10:30 service, welcoming people on the door, helping out with the children's work and missing taking part in the corporate worship (though, of course, their service is an act of worship itself) or hearing the sermon.
 
Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :
 
Sorry :-(
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
I would largely agree with ExclamationMark and Stejjie. Orderly worship need not be regimented, but what some may class as "disorderly" is simply that which doesn't conform to a particularly conservative mindset of doing things the Right Way(TM).
Agree totally.

I've managed to get through a fair number of complicated services including inductions and ordinations without the need for anyone telling what to do, say, where to sit etc.

It's just the kind of thing that I suspect would be attractive to certain people who like to take a place on the centre stage. Bustling around but when asked can't quite say what important job they are doing .... now it's been explained what an MC I recognise such a person in service I attended with one of my children. It was a brownie parade service at a very high Anglican Church.

A chap in a cassock was bustling about adjusting candles, straightening hymn books, swishing up and down in his cassock. Somewhat aloof from everyone else. In the service itself he was gesturing to the Altar party throughout the service is such a way that it was a distraction, although quite fun to predict what came next. No one else batted an eye lid. Now, I know he's an MC!

Didn't seem to faze marklet II. On returning to our "home" church Mrs M enquired about the service. E's response was that "there was a man at the front throwing insults around." I suspect she meant incense .... but there you go
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
[QUOTE]

1.I want these things to be right - not at all costs, but I do. Not because I want to worship the ceremony rather than God, not because I think the world will end if they're not (and heaven knows I've made enough mistakes leading worship in my short time doing it) but because... I think it's important to get things more or less right. I think it's good to be careful about our worship


2. (while recognising the grace of God when things are less than 100% - which they always are!).
1. I agree with you - we should give the best to God. Our preaching shouldn't be sloppy, our worship mustn't be perfunctory and aimless. We don't need it though to be orchestrated - just real - tbh some praise services can come across as if the "worship leader" is the MC. The last BU Assembly I went to - a few years ago - was a shocker for that.

2. True again - which runs counter to the poster above who mentions an MC's expressions towards people who don't get it right. There's no place for that it church - I've even crossed swords on that point with the elderly (childless) ladies who tut tut and glare at children who are less than static.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
I think that you hit the nail on the head when you talk about being 'real'. The key thing is, whatever your worship style, do it to the very best of your ability and know why you are doing it and believe in what you are doing. That applies to highly orchestrated liturgy and very informal worship and everything in between. Sloppy or fussy or 'look at me' worship is awful, whatever the style.

[ 07. June 2014, 08:56: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 
Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :
 
Sorry, dj-ordinaire host, for being too specific about a particular service but I wasn't able to MW it so had to share my thoughts in some way! I suppose my point is that, in spite of all the sparkle and spectacle of a sung pontifical mass (I don't think you could call it a High Mass) with the Bishop of London and a big cast there, the thing that stuck out was the MC! I think you need a good MC but he shouldn't be what you remember afterwards. If you do then the MC got it wrong. The last time I went to St Gabriel's the worship was quite different but that was about 10 years ago. I must look at the Facebook photographs!
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I feel like some people aren't getting what the MC is for. He or she is an essential part of celebrating a high mass...
Indeed. And the Baedeker's of Ritualism will set these folk straight with this short article on the Master of Ceremonies.

And, there is this for those folk who cannot see through the fog of obfuscation clinging to the functions and duties of the Thurifer.
 
Posted by DangerousDeacon (# 10582) on :
 
In defence of having an MC - in a parish where I was newly inducted as Rector, we were having a complex service with the Bishop present. The parish had lost the concept of having an MC, and expected the Rector to do that as well. As you can expect, it made for a disjointed service - when the Crucifer went the wrong direction, when a drunk wandered into the church and headed for the sanctuary, when there was not enough bread - I had to sort this out on the run. Not fun and did not allow me to concentrate on my priestly role. So for a complex service - yes, an MC is invaluable.

I suspect the same also applies in practice in other churches - for example in a prayer and praise service with a live band and choir, you can hardly expect the pastor to preach and lead praise and also sort out the chorister who is frozen with stage fright, the mixer system that doesn't mix, and the mentally ill person who also wants to give a sermon. Somebody else has to look after all these unexpected things and coordinate what is going on and make sure it is running well.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Wise words. I'm reminded of something an RC friend of my mother's told me years ago, about the time when their very elderly Archbishop came to the parish church. He was attended by a highly competent chaplain who spent the whole service sorting out microphones, placing of the crozier and various bits and pieces, and generally making sure that the ++ was where he should be, when he should be, doing what he should be. Afterwards a member of the congregation said to her neighbour, a propos of the chaplain,' Well, he can't have spent much time praying'. 'No', came the reply, 'but he did help ensure that other people could pray'.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Wise words. I'm reminded of something an RC friend of my mother's told me years ago, about the time when their very elderly Archbishop came to the parish church. He was attended by a highly competent chaplain who spent the whole service sorting out microphones, placing of the crozier and various bits and pieces, and generally making sure that the ++ was where he should be, when he should be, doing what he should be. Afterwards a member of the congregation said to her neighbour, a propos of the chaplain,' Well, he can't have spent much time praying'. 'No', came the reply, 'but he did help ensure that other people could pray'.
Yes. As a verger, I recognise that. Facilitating worship in this way seems to be part of my vocation. And actually, you can get to a point where you can worship through it. Doesn't always work, but it can and I'd rather be involved in making it smooth than trying to worship when it isn't (because being who I am that is very distracting)

Carys
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I've MC'd a service where there was no leader of worship! I doubt that anyone there who was not in the know would have realised that the woman who did the sound effects was actually in charge! I would have stepped up if something went wrong and an announcement was needed, but I did not actually have a role at the front otherwise.

The worship leaders parts were shared between other contributors. So if someone said a prayer that was followed by a hymn they just got to announce the hymn as well.

Jengie
 


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