Ship of Fools: Protestants and Corpus Christi

Thread: Protestants and Corpus Christi Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Among Protestants, only some Anglicans celebrate Corpus Christi with the caveat being that these Anglicans would probably not identify as Protestants.

Does observing Corpus Christi indicate belief in Transubstantiation? Is that why most Protestants do not celebrate CC?

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Surely not transubstantiation per se, but certainly the Real Presence, with the effect of consecration enduring beyond the Eucharistic celebration itself. In other words, I don't think you have to subscribe to the Thomist definition strictly, but ISTM that you have to believe that Christ is present in/with/under the bread and wine in an enduring way for Corpus Christi to make much sense. Otherwise, one can simply commemorate the institution of the Lord's Supper on Maundy Thursday.

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

What do you mean by Transubstantiation?

Do you mean the mechanism described by Aquinas, dependent on the philosophical framework he works in?

Or do you mean something a bit more vague - in that the host really becomes the Body of Christ? Not sure Transubstantiation is the best term to avoid confusion in this case

To my mind, celebration of Corpus Christi could be constructed two ways. In the Church of England's calendar, the feast is official the 'Thanksgiving for the Institution of Holy Communion' which avoids all questions of sacramental theology. However, this removes the traditional procession and benediction etc.

If you retain the more traditional focus of the festival, then it is surely necessary to have a very 'real' doctrine of the Real Presence, though I'm not sure that needs to be a full-on Thomist Transubstantiation. For example, Schillebeckx offers an interpretation in his book 'The Eucharist' which isn't properly Thomist, but is sufficiently certain of the reality of the host becoming the Body of Christ that it is still worthy of worship.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Among Protestants, only some Anglicans celebrate Corpus Christi with the caveat being that these Anglicans would probably not identify as Protestants.

There are still a few Lutheran places that do it. Zion Detroit does, or at least did before the regime change.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Corpus Christi could be as fetishisation of the elements or it could be a recognition that all believers make up the Body of Christ, having received the body of Christ.

My ramblings here.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

With regard to the CORPUS CHRISTI Issue, I would never call Anglicans Protestants,in fact they are REFORMED CATHOLICS.
The very word Protestant,is a very confusing word it has several meanings, and in my country,the Netherlands,it stands for
Calvinism.
As an Old-Catholic faithful,,I strongly believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
However like the Easter-Orthodox, I do not use the Philosophical term Transubstantiation.
I think that Christ's Presence in he Eucharist is a sacred mystery.
The Corpus Christi Processions with the Blessed Sacrament is a typical Western-Catholic phenomenon,and therefore it is not so strange that Anglican Catholics have adopted this liturgical custom.And I have witnessed it in several U.K. cathedrals,like St.Paul's,Norwich cathedral or Westminster Abbey.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

At risk of having to tell myself off for tangents, I'd have thought that "Reformed Catholic" was a good description of "Protestant."

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Among Protestants, only some Anglicans celebrate Corpus Christi with the caveat being that these Anglicans would probably not identify as Protestants.

Does observing Corpus Christi indicate belief in Transubstantiation? Is that why most Protestants do not celebrate CC?

In the CofE calendar, the day is called 'Day of thanksgiving for the institution of the Holy Communion (Corpus Christi)'. I'd have thought any church that believes Holy Communion to be important, and to be a great gift to the Church, could celebrate it.

An argument I've heard against that is that the 'proper' day of thanksgiving for Holy Communion is Maundy Thursday. But the counter-argument to that is that Corpus Christi is an opportunity to focus on Holy Communion alone, without all the other Holy Week stuff complicating things.

And you don't have to subscribe to an Aristotelian system of 'substance' and 'accidents' to believe that in Holy Communion a change comes about whereby Christ becomes truly present among his people in bread and wine.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:

As an Old-Catholic faithful,,I strongly believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

UC, what is the status of Eucharistic worship in the Union of Utrecht? An alleged lack of enthusiasm was one of Bishop Matthew's justifications for the split of the Anglo-American Old Catholics from their continental cousins.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

As suggested above, Protestant is one of those words which mean different things to different people.

Corpus Christi is observed on the first Thursday after Trinity Sunday, because it is the first "free" Thursday immediately after the end of Eastertide (in some places, now transferred to the Sunday after). It is free of the Holy Week constraints when Maundy Thursday falls; thus it is now able to be celebrated with all possible solemnity and degree of ceremonial, which would be out of keeping with the character of Holy Week.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

I have a strong feeling that a few simple Gospel services are about to take place...... [Biased]

Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :

Utrecht Catholic, I doubt very much that you would have witnessed a Corpus Christi procession at Westminster Abbey. The Abbey is hardly Anglo Catholic.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

That's what I thought - though they do use incense these days.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

With regard to the Churchmanship of Westminster Abbey I would describe their worship as High Anglican or Prayer Book Catholic.
It is Eucharistc centered,vestments, incense is being used on Great Festivals both at the Eucharist and Evensong.
I have to rectify my news on the Corpus Christi Procession,the procession with the Blessed Sacrament occurs after the Maunday Thursday Eucharist when the Sacrament is being transferred to the neighbouring Church of St.Margaret.
After this liturgical ceremony the worshippers have the opportunity to venerate the Sacrament.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Intrepid Thurifer:
Utrecht Catholic, I doubt very much that you would have witnessed a Corpus Christi procession at Westminster Abbey. The Abbey is hardly Anglo Catholic.

Post-reformation - no! Pre-reformation - more than likely!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
With regard to the Churchmanship of Westminster Abbey I would describe their worship as High Anglican or Prayer Book Catholic.
It is Eucharistc centered,vestments, incense is being used on Great Festivals both at the Eucharist and Evensong.
I have to rectify my news on the Corpus Christi Procession,the procession with the Blessed Sacrament occurs after the Maunday Thursday Eucharist when the Sacrament is being transferred to the neighbouring Church of St.Margaret.
After this liturgical ceremony the worshippers have the opportunity to venerate the Sacrament.

The Maundy Thursday procession is commonplace and appears in Common Worship Times & Seasons so it isn't an anglo-catholic preserve any more.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Meant to add that on Maundy Thursday we don't 'venerate' the Sacrament.

We use it as a focus for the watch if the passion.

Corpus Christi is very different - the procession of the blessed sacrament is likely to end with Benediction.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Though I have known a few parishes (including the cathedral in Toronto, and St John the Evangelist, Calgary, at least in their Anglican days) to end up the same way on Maundy Thursday!

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Meant to add that on Maundy Thursday we don't 'venerate' the Sacrament.

I realize not everyone does this, but double genuflexion and censing the MBS counts as veneration in my book. [Smile]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I would use the term adoration in connection with the MBS. We venerate the relics of saints, but we adore the Most Holy.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Good point, Ceremoniar.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Though "venerate" (or "reverence") is good enough for the collect of the day!

[ 20. June 2014, 21:14: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Meant to add that on Maundy Thursday we don't 'venerate' the Sacrament.

I realize not everyone does this, but double genuflexion and censing the MBS counts as veneration in my book.

and in mine - but in the context of Maundy Thursday, it is part of the procedure for the transfer - at the high altar and, again at the altar of repose. It's incidental. Whereas on Corpus Christi it's the main thing.

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

At my {fairly high Church) Anglican school we celebrated Corpus Christi as an optional communion after the usual morning service. At the {higher Church) Anglican parish Church from which our school got its chaplains, they celebrated Corpus Christi with "sung Communion" (another topical topic on these boards just now).

The most elaborate celebration of Corpus Christi in an Anglican church which I have witnessed included a procession of the Monstrance and prayers before it. The priests kept bowing towards the altar, upon which were pictures which kept being changed around and bowed to. I kept the service sheet, as I thought it unusual. The church in question was St. Lukes, Southport, UK.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Surely a Catholic would NEVER describe a Corpus Christi procession as a procession of the Monstrance but rather a Procession of the Blessed Sacrament.I understand ,I think, why Jude uses these words,but they do rather well demonstrate the title of this thread ,Protestants and Corpus Christi.

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

I also found the word Monstrance strange. In fact, I had never heard it before I went to that service.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
I also found the word Monstrance strange. In fact, I had never heard it before I went to that service.

A monstrance is the standard name for the elaborate display vessel used during Benediction for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. It is also known as an " ostensorium" in Latin, which is why our rector always says "It is pointedly ostentatious, and is meant to be."

I am pretty sure that what Forthview finds odd is that the procession was stated to be of the monstrance, rather than the Blessed Sacrament, which should be the focus of Corpus Christi. That would be somewhat akin to an art museum declaring it was displaying its vast collection of picture frames, rather than the artwork itself.

I do not believe that most Protestant parishes that have this observance use this peculiar verbiage. Mine certainly does not.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
A monstrance is the standard name for the elaborate display vessel used during Benediction for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. It is also known as an " ostensorium" in Latin, which is why our rector always says "It is pointedly ostentatious, and is meant to be."

I assume that this is intended to be a play on words on the part of your rector. Both names are derived from Latin words (monstrare and ostendere) that mean "to show," as in to present. Although most commonly something at least fairly elaborate, a monstrance does not have to be so. Here is a very simple monstrance.

Also, the word monstrance always refers to the vessel that displays the Blessed Sacrament for exposition. However, the word ostensorium can refer to a monstrance, or it could refer to a smaller vessel that displays the relics of a saint, usually on the gradine of an altar, or outside of Mass at a special ceremony, whereby the relic is venerated by the faithful (meaning that they come forward and kiss it). Here is a priest holding an ostensorium that contains a relic of St. John Paul II. Thus, all monstrances are ostensoria; but not all ostensoria are monstrances.

[ 25. June 2014, 11:52: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Years ago my Anglo-Catholic parish of the time leant its monstrance to the wealthy high church parish (not quite Anglo-Catholic, but quite high up the candle) in the city for a service of Evensong and Benediction. Sometime prior to the service, the monstrance went missing at the church to which it had been leant and a member of their altar guild was scurrying around asking in a panic if anyone knew what happened to "the ponderance"!

In the end, Bennies was observed with the MBS in a veiled ciborium. Miraculously the "ponderance" turned up directly after the service. Apparently Benedection with the Sacrament exposed in a monstrance was a bridge too far for someone at the country club parish in question.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

For the second year in a row at our A-C TEC parish we observed CC (on the Sunday following) with a street procession of the MBS. (We make a big deal of it, as it is observed as our 'feast of title.')
It was done ALMOST according to Fortescue, though with a few bits that got confused -- perhaps we'll get it all together by next year. Choir and congo sang 'Alleluia, Sing to Jesus' twice through en route, and managed to both stay together and on pitch (Made one believe in the Real Presence! [Snigger]

)
Back into church on the 3rd iteration, and Benediction followed in clouds of smoke.

And there followed a lavish pot-luck lunch with LOTS of food and drink.

A lovely time was had by all! [Yipee]

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
A monstrance is the standard name for the elaborate display vessel used during Benediction for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. It is also known as an " ostensorium" in Latin, which is why our rector always says "It is pointedly ostentatious, and is meant to be."

I assume that this is intended to be a play on words on the part of your rector. Both names are derived from Latin words (monstrare and ostendere) that mean "to show," as in to present. Although most commonly something at least fairly elaborate, a monstrance does not have to be so. Here is a very simple monstrance.

Also, the word monstrance always refers to the vessel that displays the Blessed Sacrament for exposition. However, the word ostensorium can refer to a monstrance, or it could refer to a smaller vessel that displays the relics of a saint, usually on the gradine of an altar, or outside of Mass at a special ceremony, whereby the relic is venerated by the faithful (meaning that they come forward and kiss it). Here is a priest holding an ostensorium that contains a relic of St. John Paul II. Thus, all monstrances are ostensoria; but not all ostensoria are monstrances.

Yes, it was supposed to be a joke.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Almost no point unless there's doctrine of the real presence - leave it at Holy Thursday.

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