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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What makes an (Anglican) Sung Eucharist "Sung"?
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
I know that some Anglican parishes use the term "Sung Eucharist" merely to distinguish a eucharist service with any music from one with no music (ie, a Said Eucharist). However, the local parish has talked about going from the current way of doing things at the main Sunday service, where there are hymns and the gloria, sanctus, even the Lord's Prayer, etc., are sung by choir and congregation with the occasional extra anthem by the choir to a "Sung Eucharist." At the very least this seems to entail having the celebrant and congregation chant to opening dialogue of the Eucharistic Prayer, and perhaps having the Celebrant chant the entire Eucharistic Prayer with a song memorial acclamation and great Amen. Is this all that a Sung Eucharist is? What definitions of "Sung Eucharist" do your congregations go by. What is the textbook definition, if there is one?
What other parts of the service do you include in what is necessary to make the Eucharist "Sung"? The collect and other presiding prayers? The readings and Gospel? The psalm? The prayers of the faithful? The confession? Everything except the sermon and announcements?
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I would more or less expect the use of a mass setting - so Gloria/Kyrie, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei sung at least, with the various responses for the readings and the start of the Eucharistic prayer, and the Lord's Prayer and Creed as optional extras.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I would usually expect a Sung Eucharist to have a congregational Mass setting. Where hymns are sung but there is no musical setting it would normally (IME) be referred to as "Eucharist with hymns".
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
But at this parish there already was a sung Mass setting and hymns (ok, the creed wasn't sung). Now they say they are going to have a "Sung Eucharist" and at least one of the changes will be a sung opening dialogue to the Eucharistic Prayer. I don't know what all else they plan to have sung. What else do you think is included in this particular meaning of "Sung Eucharist"?
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
When I do a sung Eucharist the following parts are sung :
1. Minor propers
2. Collect & post-communion prayers
3. The ordinary (incl. Creed & Lord's Prayer)
4. The Gospel
5. Sursum corda & Preface
6. Conclusions of the Prayer for the Whole State of Christ's Church & the Canon
7. Embolism & Pax
8. Dismissal
I think that's everything.
I have recently acquired a book which sets the entirety of the 1928 BCP Holy Communion to music, including the General Confession (in 4-part harmony!). It would be really interesting to put together a service based on the setting, although I'm afraid the effect would be a little goofy.
[ 20. June 2014, 22:26: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
But at this parish there already was a sung Mass setting and hymns (ok, the creed wasn't sung). Now they say they are going to have a "Sung Eucharist" and at least one of the changes will be a sung opening dialogue to the Eucharistic Prayer. I don't know what all else they plan to have sung. What else do you think is included in this particular meaning of "Sung Eucharist"?
I would expect at minimum the collects,the lord's prayer, the postcommunion, and the blessing/dismissal to be added to these. Maybe the epistle and gospel in very advanced places.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
This question wants Fortescue.
In The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described, 1958, 10th ed., there are roughly these forms of the mass:- Low Mass
- High Mass
- Sung Mass (Missa Cantata) and
- High Masses with a bishop parked in various places
The Missa Cantata is of two forms, "simpler" (similar to Low Mass) and "more solemn" (similar to Solemn Mass) both with a choir to sing the ordinary of the mass (which seems to be at the root of opening post's question). Both forms lack a deacon and subdeacon.
The simpler form requires one or two acolytes, with a low mass ceremonial adapted for the presence of a choir. The more solemn form will take as many acolytes as the parish can field (MC, acolytes, thurifer, and torchbearers) and uses a high mass ceremonial adapted to the absence of deacon and subdeacon.
At Our Lady of Hardwork, we default to a Sung Mass whenever we lack a deacon (or a priest willing to play at being deacon of the mass).
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
But at this parish there already was a sung Mass setting and hymns (ok, the creed wasn't sung). Now they say they are going to have a "Sung Eucharist" and at least one of the changes will be a sung opening dialogue to the Eucharistic Prayer. I don't know what all else they plan to have sung. What else do you think is included in this particular meaning of "Sung Eucharist"?
My local parish changed the description of their main service from Parish Communion to Sung Eucharist a couple of years ago.
The Parish Communion had rotating congregational mass settings and 6 hymns and the dialogue parts were sung at Sursum Cords and Alleluia. After it changed additionally the Collect and post communion prayers were sung, as well as the complete EP preface and the dismissal.
Some churches also use the term Choral Eucharist where the mass setting is sung by the choir as opposed to congregationally.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
But at this parish there already was a sung Mass setting and hymns (ok, the creed wasn't sung). Now they say they are going to have a "Sung Eucharist" and at least one of the changes will be a sung opening dialogue to the Eucharistic Prayer. I don't know what all else they plan to have sung. What else do you think is included in this particular meaning of "Sung Eucharist"?
I would expect at minimum the collects,the lord's prayer, the postcommunion, and the blessing/dismissal to be added to these. Maybe the epistle and gospel in very advanced places.
Interesting. I've experienced Gospel sung but not Post Communion & Blessing/Dismissal.
To me Sung Eucharist would probably be mass setting as mininmum, but possibly sursum corda and proper preface. But it depends a bit on parish context.
Carys
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
Some lists of types of Masses regard "sung" as having to do with whether the celebrant sings or not, not whether there's a choir or hymns. The older books specify that the celebrant "sings his part," meaning especially the collect/secret/postcommunion, and the Sursum Corda and proper preface minimally. And usually a lot of other things (the intro to the Lord's Prayer; the blessing and dismissal, etc.).
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
In the Anglican Church of Melanesia, until recent years, almost everything was sung, including the Collect for Purity, post-Communion and sometimes even the confession.
In more recent years, it has been urged in many places just to "say reverently" the Collect for Purity, Creed, Our Father, post-communion and other bits formerly sung, such as the responses to the Intercessions and the dismissal and blessing used to be always sung.
In TEC, I have only very rarely seen the Creed sung and never the Collect for Purity.
Usually,
the (Kyrie and) Gloria
Collect of the Day
Psalm (sometimes)
Sanctus
rarely, the Lord's Prayer
rarely, fraction anthems other than Agnus dei
Never in TEC the post-Communion (just my experience, yours may have sung since 1892).
Never seen the dismissal sung, though frequently the double alleluia never leaves the mouths of many a congregation, even in Lent.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Yes, in Māori culture (or in the tikanga Māori of the Anglican church in Aotearoa) much of the liturgy is chanted, but in fact that stems from a snake-bely low ecclesiology of the 19th century and was if I understand correctly simply a ploy to make the liturgical language more accessible to native Māori speakers in the nineteenth century.
Ironically that is not dissimilar to the genesis of sung priesty bits but that's another story.
It would certainly be horrified historically to have heard itself described as "sung eucharist" etc. ... more "Commemoration of the Lord's Supper With Real Absence" if you get my drift.
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Sung Masses in my experience tend to have the following Sung:
-> The Mass Setting (Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei)
-> The Sursum Corda and the Preface
-> The Lord's Prayer
The following are optional:
--> The Collect of the Day
--> The Creed
--> The Prayer of Consecration
*Incidentally, in one liturgical manual designed to complement the modern language BAS in Canada (Holeton's "Let Us Give Thanks"), the authors advise either singing the entire Great Thanksgiving Prayer or saying the Prayer entirely. The authors advise against singing the Preface and saying the Consecration because in their view, it violates the unity of the Great Thanksgiving as a single, complete, prayer.
This advice has never been followed except in a handful of places that I've been to.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
*Incidentally, in one liturgical manual designed to complement the modern language BAS in Canada (Holeton's "Let Us Give Thanks"), the authors advise either singing the entire Great Thanksgiving Prayer or saying the Prayer entirely. The authors advise against singing the Preface and saying the Consecration because in their view, it violates the unity of the Great Thanksgiving as a single, complete, prayer.
This advice has never been followed except in a handful of places that I've been to.
I've seen this stated in various places but like you, nobody seems to pay it any heed. I don't really see the problem myself...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
You're all missing the most obvious thing that makes a eucharist 'sung': that the gospel is intoned!
I was taught that for a eucharist to be regarded as sung then it meant that those parts of the service that could only be performed by the priestly celebrant were intoned, sung or chanted.
So even if you have a Mozart mass with orchestra, if the celebrant don't intone preface and gospel its not really a 'sung' eucharist.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Our practice is to sing (congregationally) the Kyries, Gloria, Gospel Alleluia, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei. During Eastertide, we also sing the Regina Coeli.
Father Priest-in-charge has recently started to sing the Sursum Corda (though he hasn't quite got it right - yet). Father Visiting-Priest usually also sings the Collect and the Proper Preface, and(if it's a short one) the Gospel itself.
TBH, with 4 hymns, that's quite enough music for a small congregation with no choir - IMHO!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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JoannaP
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# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Sung Masses in my experience tend to have the following Sung:
-> The Mass Setting (Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei)
-> The Sursum Corda and the Preface
-> The Lord's Prayer
The following are optional:
--> The Collect of the Day
--> The Creed
--> The Prayer of Consecration
*Incidentally, in one liturgical manual designed to complement the modern language BAS in Canada (Holeton's "Let Us Give Thanks"), the authors advise either singing the entire Great Thanksgiving Prayer or saying the Prayer entirely. The authors advise against singing the Preface and saying the Consecration because in their view, it violates the unity of the Great Thanksgiving as a single, complete, prayer.
This advice has never been followed except in a handful of places that I've been to.
In the church I currently attend, everything in the first list is sung except the Lord's Prayer and the Collect of the Day is also sung.
It is, however, one of the few churches I have attended where the congregation remains in the same posture throughout the Eucharistic Prayer at the main Sunday service, which is encouraged in Common Worship for the same reason as above. So possibly that counteracts the effect of singing the Preface and then switching to speech...
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Just so. Our people drop to their knees (or the Shampoo Position) after the Sanctus and Benedictus, thus missing out on seeing the Consecration etc., despite the ringing of bells.
Of course, prior to the Reformation, that's when they would have paid greatest attention, probably raising their arms in the orans gesture, to welcome Our Lord In The Most Holy Sacrament Of The Altar. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just so. Our people drop to their knees (or the Shampoo Position) after the Sanctus and Benedictus, thus missing out on seeing the Consecration etc., despite the ringing of bells.
Of course, prior to the Reformation, that's when they would have paid greatest attention, probably raising their arms in the orans gesture, to welcome Our Lord In The Most Holy Sacrament Of The Altar.
Ian J.
Why can't they see the consecration while they are kneeling?
Did laypeople raise their hands in the orans position during the major elevations in the Middle Ages? If so, that would be very interesting, since it seems to be a practice that conservative RC bishops are trying to discourage now, saying that in the Eucharistic celebration (though perhaps not elsewhere), the orans is exclusive to ordained ministers.
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Jude
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# 3033
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Posted
It really depends on what sort of Church you're at. In the town where I live, the uaual Sunday morning service in at least two of the Anglican churches is counted as being sung, that is, the Kyrie/Gloria, Gospel intro and ending, Sanctus & Benedictus and other interludes in the Eucharistic prayer, Agnus Dei are sung (all in English). At one of them, the Lord's prayer is also sung, and the Sursum Corda if the president can sing reasonably well.
I used to attend a church, a Cathedral, where sung Eucharist included sung creed and sung Eucharistic prayer, at least for the first part. There was also an anthem sung by the choir.
On the other hand, I would think that "said Communion" means exactly that, with no music at all, no hymns or anything, but perhaps a said psalm.
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“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
The key presidential parts sung defines it - whether or not any congregational singing.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
In the town where I live, the usual Sunday morning service in at least two of the Anglican churches is counted as being sung, that is, the Kyrie/Gloria, …, Sanctus & Benedictus …, Agnus Dei are sung.
My post earlier in this thread wasn't clear. As I've edited, Jude has got it right: If there a choir to sing the Ordinary of the mass, then it's a sung mass. If the congregation function as the choir, then it's a sung mass.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
[C]onservative RC bishops are trying to discourage now, saying that in the Eucharistic celebration (though perhaps not elsewhere), the orans is exclusive to ordained ministers.
For fuck sake, this is stupid beyond belief. A simple images.google for Mary orans will show why.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I wonder what it would be if I sang the sermon ...
Baptist.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245
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Posted
According to a few musical referees here, a Eucharist in which the versicles/responses, sanctus, bendictus, sursum corda etc. are sung by the congregation is called a Sung Eucharist; when a choir sings a Mass setting then it is to be called a Choral Eucharist. Therefore our normal Sunday observance is called a Sung Eucharist - and yes, we do also have 4 hymns.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I wonder what it would be if I sang the sermon ...
Baptist.
I like that.
We do a Choral Eucharist at 10 on Sundays 1, 3 and 5. The main choir sings, we have 4 hymns and a setting of the ordinary of the Mass (except the Creed, which is said) is sung by both choir and congregation. The choir chants the psalm, and the Gospel acclamation. The collect for the day, the preface and the concluding section of the Great Thanksgiving are chanted by the celebrant. The sursum corda is chanted versicle/response by celebrant and congregation, and the Lord's Prayer chanted by both. The choir will sing a communion motet or 2.
For Sung Eucharists, on Sundays 2 and 4, we have the same pattern, without the main choir. Sometimes we have the children's choir, which will sing a communion motet. Usually there is a different Mass setting, the psalm is said in response, and the Gospel acclamation is said.
In Eastertide, there is a chanted versicle/response introit and the same for the dismissal.
The 7 am Eucharist is entirely said. At 8, there are 3 hymns but the service is otherwise said. At special festivals, there may be a more elaborate Mass setting sung by the choir alone, in either Latin or English. For a recent Patronal Festival, the choir sang the first section of the Vivaldi Gloria in D, RV 289.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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