Ship of Fools: Ecumenical Protocol

Thread: Ecumenical Protocol Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027900

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

Our current ELCA Synodical Bishop has announced his retirement and a new Bishop has been elected. I've recently been told that I'm playing a special service of thanksgiving for the retiring bishop in about 6 wks. The current Bishop has worked hard at ecumenical co-operation in the area and there will be several important ecumenical guest clergy attending. The service will be preceded by a reception and I will probably be introduced to at least some of the visiting clergy How do I address the following:

The current RC Bishop

The retired RC Bishop who I believe is styled "Bishop Emeritus"

An Orthodox Bishop

The current Episcopal Bishop

The Presiding Bishop of the ELCA

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

In the USA, and particularly in an ecumenical context, I would address all the above as "Bishop".

[ 24. June 2014, 15:25: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Was just going to say the same thing!

'Good morning, bishop', 'Thank you, bishop' etc. I guess that keeps it formal but not overly familiar...

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

Would "Your Excellency" be inappropriate for any of these bishops?

If one of the RC bishops is a cardinal, then you could say "Your Eminence."

But there's nothing disrespectful about just saying "Bishop."

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Would "Your Excellency" be inappropriate for any of these bishops?

I know it's technically correct, but I'm having trouble imagining any of my bishops being addressed as "Your Excellency" and not just bursting out in laughter.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

I'm a serious ring-kisser, so when I do so it feels odd to call the kissee "Bishop" - so I guess "Your Excellency" is my only other option in the US.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Reaching back into my protocol days, RC bishops in North America* get Your Excellency (in English), but Orthodox bishops can either be Your Grace or Your Eminence, depending on the jurisdiction. Bishop ends up being safest (if you want to go whole hog, despota for Greeks, vladyka for Slavs, and sayidna for Arabs). Other bishops get to be called Bishop, whatever your opinions on their orders might be.

*serious protocol geek alert. RC bishops in Canada formerly got (in English) the same as Anglican bishops (Your Lordship, Your Grace), but this is almost completely forgotten as a practice.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

I would defer to the easy default of "bishop." Use of the more grandiose titles, while de rigueur across the pond, is bound to seem a bit queer in the States.

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

Thanks to all of you. I think I'll stick with a simple "Bishop So-and-So" if the occasions arises.

I just realized that while the reception in going on I'll probably be doing a last minute rehearsal with the choir.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Reaching back into my protocol days, RC bishops in North America* get Your Excellency (in English), but Orthodox bishops can either be Your Grace or Your Eminence, depending on the jurisdiction. Bishop ends up being safest (if you want to go whole hog, despota for Greeks, vladyka for Slavs, and sayidna for Arabs). Other bishops get to be called Bishop, whatever your opinions on their orders might be.

*serious protocol geek alert. RC bishops in Canada formerly got (in English) the same as Anglican bishops (Your Lordship, Your Grace), but this is almost completely forgotten as a practice.

I think Your Excellency is appropriate for a US TEC bishop. I love despota for Greek Orthodox bishops! I wish we could call bishops despots in English!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I still recall with a shudder when I heard Lots of Plusses Runcie being introduced to someone in OZ the respondent saying "G'day, mate" (as you do in the antipodes ...)

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :

There is a story that, when Archbishop Michael Ramsey visited New Jersey, a photographer wanting a better picture asked: 'Could you move a bit to the left, please, "Archie"?' - to which the Archbishop replied, 'Please call me Mike'.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Zappa

quote:
I still recall with a shudder when I heard Lots of Plusses Runcie being introduced to someone in OZ the respondent saying "G'day, mate" (as you do in the antipodes ...)

Somehow I don't think that would bother someone whose nickname when in the Tank Regiment was 'Killer'...

Seriously, Cardinals are addressed as Your Eminence the first time then just Cardinal.

Bishops are just that - Bishop.

As for the Orthodox, an ordinary bishop is called Bishop (Your Grace if you want to be formal).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Zappa
quote:
I still recall with a shudder when I heard Lots of Plusses Runcie being introduced to someone in OZ the respondent saying "G'day, mate" (as you do in the antipodes ...)
Somehow I don't think that would bother someone whose nickname when in the Tank Regiment was 'Killer'...

Ahem: Scots Guards (though, yes, their tank regiment). But yes, I don't think he'd have been bothered by that at all.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

L'Organist writes:

quote:
As for the Orthodox, an ordinary bishop is called Bishop (Your Grace if you want to be formal).

Depends on your bishop. Heads of autocephalous churches get Beatitude (Tikhon of Washington), most metropolitans get Eminence (the late Philip of New York), although Sotirios of Toronto apparently likes it as well. Diocesans get Your Grace, as you noted. They're used to being called Bishop-- I threw in the ethnic informal titles for fun.

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

As for the Orthodox bishop, I believe he is with the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

A the A

I made it clear I wasn't speaking of metropolitans or higher bishops : I used the term ordinary bishop.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

So I understood. Among the Constantinopolitans, ordinary (viz., diocesan) bishops are metropolitans, and get called Eminence. As an example, enjoy the website of His Eminence Isaiah, Metropolitan of Denver.

While I threw in the Beatitude for fun, I now recall that the OCA Primate is often a diocesan bishop in addition to his usual gig.

Still, in the North American setting, and especially in the US, calling any of them Bishop is always safe and never out of line (I except one particular prelate who will go apeshit ballistic if he gets anything less than what he believes to be his due, but this will at least provide entertainment to onlookers).

Posted by LawyerWannabe (# 14186) on :

I believe the Orthodox bishop is Gregory, the Bishop of Nyssa so he is addressed as "Your Grace".

On the by, in the Greek churches, an Archbishop trumps a Metropolitan whereas its the opposite in the Slavic churches.

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

In the Latin rite of the Catholic Church a metropolitan is an archbishop by definition. There are however archbishops who are not metropolitans; they tend to be be curial officials, e.g. prefects/ secretaries of dicasteries. Cardinal Mueller for instance was suffragan bishop of Regensburg and became an archbishop upon appointment as prefect of the Holy Office.

Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

The CoE helpfully reminds us that on this side of the water, we haven't been obliged to call a Bishop 'My Lord' since 1968.

I wasn't aware of this, and recently spent a dinner constantly referring to an English Diocesan as 'My Lord'. He eventually - understandably - tired of this, and gently chided me saying, 'Bishop will do, if you must.'

x

AV

[ 01. July 2014, 15:03: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

You could always try "Hey, Bish" and see what reaction you get?

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Honestly, they really don't mind...

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Well the decent ones don't ... there was an Anglican bishop in OZ when I first moved there in the early '80s who would have been horrified at anything less than "My Lord" and a ring kiss [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

Hmmm, sounds like a former Bishop of Ballarat!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Slight tangent, but I'm reminded of the story of +Hensley Henson's reply on hearing ++Cosmo Gordon Lang complaining that his latest portrait made him look 'proud, pompous, and prelatical': 'And to which of those epithets does Your Grace take exception?'

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Hmmm, sounds like a former Bishop of Ballarat!

Oops .. that's what I meant to write ... trans-Tasman brain fog ... and yes, that was him. He did however grow up in NZ.

[ 11. July 2014, 19:25: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

How about "Hello (name)?" Cuts out all the uncertainty and also the idea that you're welcoming the person more for their title than for themselves.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

But you might well be welcoming the person more for their office than for themself.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Most often the case, I think - & don't forget never to "welcome" the Ordinary or one of his assistants...

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Most often the case, I think - & don't forget never to "welcome" the Ordinary or one of his assistants...

Why?

Yes, I understand that it's his church, and his ministry and all that, but people are welcomed home all the time. "Welcome" doesn't necessarily imply that he's a guest.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But you might well be welcoming the person more for their office than for themself.

Indeed, they are there almost 100% of the time on account of their role (and title) and only very rarely because they are Joe Blow. Jorge Bergoglio got few invitations until he became the Archbishop of Buenos Aires.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Whatever you do don't call any of them Len.

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

Here's my report: I arrived early in order to secure a convenient parking spot, walked into the parish hall and found the retiring ELCA + alone. He is a long-time personal friend and we were alone so I addressed him by his first name. I was making my way to hors d'oeuvres tables when I was approached by the Music Director who advised me that the choir had collectively decided they had never seen the music before in spite of a lengthy rehearsal 2 days earlier. I spent the remainder of the time before the service working with the choir and the brass quartet and never did get introduced to any of the ecumenical guests. But I was prepared!!!! Semper Paratus.

I did notice that during the service itself the RC Bishops were referred to as "Bishop 'first name only', i.e., "Bishop Mark". Is this something new?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I don't know how new, but on this side of the pond it's been the custom for a long time now. Both with Anglicans and RCs. Though some hyper-formal types might stick with the old ways.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by ORGANMEISTER

quote:
I was making my way to hors d'oeuvres tables when I was approached by the Music Director who advised me that the choir had collectively decided they had never seen the music before in spite of a lengthy rehearsal 2 days earlier.

One of the many joys available to visiting organists.

I've just spent the best part of today trying to intercede between a bride (who swears she checked her order of service with the parish priest) and an organist over her choice of Blest Pair of Sirens for the signing of registers and The Ride of the Valkyries for the recessional: this in a in a country parish with, on a good day, a choir consisting of 2 children, 3 elderly soprani, a juvenile alto and 2 ancient basses (only 1 of whom reads music), and a small two manual tracker-action organ.

(I was contacted to see if I would/could play and was able to reply, hand on heart, that I'll be away [Snigger]

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

L'Organist,.....Ah the joy of playing for weddings! I could tell wedding music horror stories for hours. I shall always remember when the ring bearer passed out; when the zaftig brides maids in yards and yards of pink tulle suddenly reminded me of the dancing hippos in Fantasia and I could stop giggling; when the groomsmen walked around the corner of the church to share a joint; when the groom didn't show up;when the soloist, and elderly Welsh lady, "cleansed" her throat before the ceremony be swallowing a raw egg which quickly made a return appearance......but that's for another thread.

Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on :

in 70s with teased and spayed locks, a bridesmad's hair caught fire as the bridal party were thronged about with candles

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I am seriously glad that the civil celebrants have all but taken over the wedding industry in this country ... they generally do an awful job, but I'm happy not to have the stress

though perhaps back to the topic!

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:

I did notice that during the service itself the RC Bishops were referred to as "Bishop 'first name only', i.e., "Bishop Mark". Is this something new?

The liturgy always directs us to refer to "Bishop [Christian Name]," but in normal conversation, I'd refer to ours, and pretty much any other bishop, as "Bishop [Last name]." There are a couple of exceptions, but those are the (very few) bishops I have some kind of relationship with outside of their being bishops.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0