Thread: Nine Lessons and Carols Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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I was horrified on going to church today to find that the powers that be have decreed that our Nine Lessons and Carols will be held in the afternoon of Advent Sunday (November 30th). This is not an Advent Carol Service, but the full Christmas carol service. The music director has said that he thinks people won't come to an Advent carol service, but that he is 'too busy' in December leading up to Christmas to have the Carol service closer to Christmas. Apparently no discussion will be entered into. I contend that is litugically incorrect to hold it on November 30th and that I doubt if many people will be desirous to attend so many weeks before Christmas. I'm not sure where else to take this. Do I write a letter to the Parish Council? The whole choir is up in arms about this and it is causing a lot of ill feeling between the music director and the choir. Any suggestions gratefully received.
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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It's not primarily a liturgical atrocity; it is evangelically stupid and a catechetical catastrophe.
Church isn't a Hallmark card. The services teach. Teaching the Nativity in Advent is disastrous malpractice. And, your music director is an idiot.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Since a carol service is not a liturgical event, and is not in the calendar, it is not 'liturgically incorrect' to have it at an odd time, though it may render the content inappropriate.
However, I would have thought a music director who expects his choir to fit in with his own timetable and convenience to that extent, and hasn't won them over before taking that decision, is heading for serious trouble.
I'd suggest though that you don't write your threatened letter unless you have voiced your views clearly to your music director first.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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It sounds as if your music director has too many irons in too many fires to be able to prioritise his church commitment. Or else he has some momentous event happening in December which will legitimately prevent him doing Carols closer to Christmas, but which he hasn't divulged.
Might it be worth inquiring just why he's "too busy"? There may be a very good reason.
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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Is this music director a paid position or a voluntary one?
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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The music director is in a part time paid position, but he also hold a well paid full time job elsewhere. I tried to raise my concerns with him, he listened very politely and thanked me for raising the issue, but said he was not prepared to do anything about it. Normally he is a reasonable fellow, so I'm not sure what agenda is causing him to make such a strange decision re the Carol service. I think it is not going to be possible to prevent this happening this year, but I think he will hear very strong opposition if it ever happens again.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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Might as well hold this carol service in June, when we in northern-hemisphere, are having midsummer!
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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Maybe you will discover after Christmas why he couldn't manage to have the service over Christmas itself.
But I agree, if it is to be more than a one-off for an unavoidable reason, then you are entitled to object. Choir members are not pawns on a chessboard to be moved around at will - maybe they have their own busy commitments around Advent which would make such an undertaking difficult for THEIR timetables?
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Bib
I'm an organist and director of music and - as posts elsewhere might indicate - I expect to be trusted to the job I am paid to do, particularly in relation to those areas where I have received more training than others in the parish.
BUT on the question of when a service should be - it doesn't matter whether it is one in the liturgical calendar or not - that is not up to me: that is something for the Priest-in-Charge to discuss with the Churchwardens. Any further discussion may well involve me, but setting the date is for the Wardens, PinC and the Church Council.
Since your organist is paid then they should have a Contract, and this should specify those services that are viewed as being 'statutory' - in other words, those he cannot be absent for, even if he puts in a deputy, without consultation with the PinC and Wardens. If this is not the case then it is something that should be addressed as a matter of urgency.
As to the matter in hand: it is not for the organist to say when the Festival of lessons and carols should be - that is for the clergy and church council.
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
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As a priest, I wouldn't permit a Christmas carol service in Advent. I'd give my choir director three options. One, hold the Christmas carol service during Christmas (12 days in Christmas). Two, do Advent lessons and carols. Three, don't do a service of lessons and carols this year.
Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on
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If you are stuck with it, use it as an opportunity to advertise widely, Most secular Christmas events start well before Advent. You may find this a great opportunity to reach people who are unaware of the church calendar, Try some clever presentations with your lessons...If you are in the southern hemisphere you have a chance to lead up to the long summer holidays, exam times, mew job seeling etc.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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bib, are you in the choir?
In my area there are two lessons and carols services in Advent that I know of. They are both extremely well attended and beautiful services.
One takes place on the afternoon of the first December Sunday in Advent. It is jointly put on by the choirs of several area churches, and it is up to choristers whether they participate or not. There is always a very large choir, a packed church, and many people tell me afterwards what a wonderful time they had and how much they appreciated it.
The other takes place in early to mid-December. It is put on by students at the local college, and they typically schedule it for just before exams. It has a fairly small choir (it fluctuates, and has been larger in the past, but the past few years they seem to be scrabbling for both singers and rehearsal time). It takes place in a smaller church than the other service, but is equally packed. Not being a member of that choir, I can't say what comments they get for it, but as an appreciative attendee, I am very glad they do it.
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since a carol service is not a liturgical event, and is not in the calendar, it is not 'liturgically incorrect' to have it at an odd time, though it may render the content inappropriate.
Enoch, I believe you have the wrong end of the stick. It matters not whether the old categorization labels a lessons & carols service liturgical or not.
The calendar still prevails and texts taken at odds to the calendar are wrongly selected, which is, to be fair, where you wind up.
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
If you are stuck with it, use it as an opportunity to advertise widely, Most secular Christmas events start well before Advent. You may find this a great opportunity to reach people who are unaware of the church calendar, Try some clever presentations with your lessons...If you are in the southern hemisphere you have a chance to lead up to the long summer holidays, exam times, mew job seeling etc.
Last year my local supermarket had eggnog on the shelves on Sept. 25. Compared to that I guess Christmas carols on I Advent isn't so bad. (By the way, I complained about the eggnog. The person I talked to said she'd tell the manager, but she had a look in her eyes like she thought I was slightly nuts, which was probably justified.)
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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Complaining about eggnog? Why shouldn't people drink what they like whenever they want? I'd like my supermarket to have eggnog throughout the year. I'll have to remember to check in a week to see if I'm fortunate enough to have a supermarket which is in the pleasant club of early-eggnog-stockers.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from? And why associate it with Christmas?
No, in the UK Christmas is mince pies and mulled wine.
For bib, I'm guessing a super main course followed by Pavlova?
As for AR having eggnog available, here in the UK my local supermarket has had Christmas cards on sale for the past 3 weeks. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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No-one'll die or burn in Hell for all eternity, but a carol service on Advent Sunday is going to exacerbate the feeling of being fed up with Christmas before Christmas Eve...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from? And why associate it with Christmas?
No, in the UK Christmas is mince pies and mulled wine.
For bib, I'm guessing a super main course followed by Pavlova?
As for AR having eggnog available, here in the UK my local supermarket has had Christmas cards on sale for the past 3 weeks.
Like many dishes that took off in Colonial-era North America, eggnog is of British origin (as is pumpkin pie!). It started out as posset served hot with added madeira or sherry, which was changed to rum when it crossed the Atlantic as it was easier to get hold of (for obvious reasons). It's called an Egg Flip or a Hell's Angel in British sources. Not sure why it's associated with Christmas, probably just due to it being warming and an indulgence from the booze and creaminess. Anyway, it's not a million miles away from advocaat and I definitely associate that (and snowballs made with it) with Christmas!
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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Am I missing something here? Has anyone asked the fairly basic question of how a music director seems to be calling the shots on what happens in church?
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from?
Warm ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
It's served ice cold, my dear.
And as far as it being available all year is concerned, it's not difficult to make home-made. Substitute sucralose for the sugar and half-and-half for the milk, and you've got an Atkins Diet-friendly drink.
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Not sure why it's associated with Christmas, probably just due to it being warming and an indulgence from the booze and creaminess.
Your expertise on North America has failed you; eggnog is always served cold.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from?
Warm It's served ice cold, my dear.
In that case, where did this north American custom of drinking cold alcoholic custard come from? ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from?
Warm It's served ice cold, my dear.
In that case, where did this north American custom of drinking cold alcoholic custard come from?
If you want something like that, surely one should add jelly, sponge and cream and turn it into a nice trifle?
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Am I missing something here? Has anyone asked the fairly basic question of how a music director seems to be calling the shots on what happens in church?
Quite right. This person needs slapping down bigtime and it sounds like even if this meant you didn't have a music director at all as a result the church would be better off.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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The church would be better off without a music director? Kill the choir and do without music in church fifty-two weeks of the year in order to avoid telling people the Nativity story with words and music at an unconventional time? That seems like an overly-hysterical reaction.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
As a priest, I wouldn't permit a Christmas carol service in Advent. I'd give my choir director three options. One, hold the Christmas carol service during Christmas (12 days in Christmas). Two, do Advent lessons and carols. Three, don't do a service of lessons and carols this year.
Agree.
In 'the good old days' we didn't sing any carols until midnight mass.
The 9 lessons and carols was always held between December 27th and January 5th
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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Is the situation outlined ideal? No.
Is it better for people to go to a Christmas service at this time than not at all? Yes.
Of such things are compromises made, unfortunately! Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Am I missing something here? Has anyone asked the fairly basic question of how a music director seems to be calling the shots on what happens in church?
Quite right. This person needs slapping down bigtime and it sounds like even if this meant you didn't have a music director at all as a result the church would be better off.
We have no idea what the discussions have been between the music director and the priest-in-charge. bib's original post says "the powers that be" have decided, not "the music director" has decided. I don't know what bib means by "the powers that be", perhaps "the music director" is meant. But I think it's going off half-cocked to assume that the priest-in-charge hasn't assented to this in some way -- fact is, we just don't know either way right now.
Unless bib is perhaps the priest-in-charge, and has omitted telling us that?
[ 15. September 2014, 16:12: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Lynching with silk-tasseled rope in 3.. 2.. 1..
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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We often have an Advent service of lessons and carols on a Sunday afternoon in December. There has been pressure from a small contingent in the parish to switch to a Christmas theme, which I continue to resist. With Frosty the Effing Snowman playing in every shopping mall starting the day after Thanksgiving, they should be getting plenty of Xmas. The church shouldn't be rearranging its calendar to suit the shopkeepers' season.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Lynching with silk-tasseled rope in 3.. 2.. 1..
Oh I know I know. And it pains me to give in to, as Fr Weber puts it, the 'shopkeepers view' of a major liturgical season. If it were my parish, I probably wouldn't attend... but that's the position we're in I guess!
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
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I assumed bib's church would still have mass on Christmas. Why would you hire a church musician who couldn't work on Christmas? Better tell him now not to plan anything for Easter.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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There is a lot of misunderstanding about the importance of observing Advent. And perhaps needs clearly explaining every year. We've had people become very disappointed, and even leave, because they've turned up to the Advent carol service expecting Christmas carols and only getting Advent ones. Of course, the offer of free mince pies can't have anything to do with it....
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I assumed bib's church would still have mass on Christmas. Why would you hire a church musician who couldn't work on Christmas? Better tell him now not to plan anything for Easter.
The Lessons and Carols service is not necessarily held on Christmas Day. In fact I've never been in a church that had their Lessons and Carols service on Christmas Day. (And as long as we're speculating: the choir might also revolt at being obliged to commit to a big service on The Day Itself.) So we don't know that the music director can't work on Christmas. And we also don't know whether the music director's contract includes working on Christmas. Our Christmas Day services used to be without music (IIRC).
Easter is a different story because it's on a Sunday. But for the time around Easter different churches may have different practices for the services of Holy Week, as to whether the music director is contracted to be available for them or not.
[ 15. September 2014, 20:30: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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This is Advent. quote:
1979 BCP Collect Advent I:
Almighty God, give us grace to cast away the works of darkness, and put on the armor of light, now in the time of this mortal life in which your Son Jesus Christ came to visit us in great humility; that in the last day, when he shall come again in his glorious majesty to judge both the living and the dead, we may rise to the life immortal; through him who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
quote:
1979 BCP Collect Advent II:
Merciful God, who sent your messengers the prophets to preach repentance and prepare the way for our salvation: Give us grace to heed their warnings and forsake our sins, that we may greet with joy the coming of Jesus Christ our Redeemer; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
quote:
1979 BCP Collect for Advent III:
Stir up your power, O Lord, and with great might come among us; and, because we are sorely hindered by our sins, let your bountiful grace and mercy speedily help and deliver us; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory, now and for ever.
quote:
1979 BCP Collect for Advent IV:
Purify our conscience, Almighty God, by your daily visitation, that your Son Jesus Christ, at his coming, may find in us a mansion prepared for himself; who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
Fie on Popular Culture and the Shopkeepers.
Advent Lessons and Carols after the vigil mass for Advent IV? Yeah. That's the right compromise, I think.
[ 15. September 2014, 20:35: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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Yet presumably we're called to minister to people who live in the popular culture. I don't think it's slam-dunk obvious how to be in the world but not of it between Thanksgiving to Christmas, and how to minister to people who are harried by that time period by, yes, the popular culture.
I think that the Lessons and Carols services I mentioned upthread, that unabashedly go all the way through the nativity and conclude with Christmas, not Advent, carols, do minister to the people who come to them, and help them to approach other frames of mind and orientation about the season that are helpful.
Might it be nice if everyone packed the church and the chapel involved for a good old service of sackcloth and ashes and Advent preparation? Sure, why not. Except it ain't gonna happen. Meet people where they are, not where we wish they were.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
The church would be better off without a music director? Kill the choir and do without music in church fifty-two weeks of the year in order to avoid telling people the Nativity story with words and music at an unconventional time? That seems like an overly-hysterical reaction.
Not at all, and who's saying it would kill of the choir? But the music director is there to serve the Church's worship and not vice versa. Any music director who doesn't understand this is dangerous.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Advent Lessons and Carols after the vigil mass for Advent IV? Yeah. That's the right compromise, I think.
You're kidding, right? The music director to play a vigil mass, then a Lessons and Carols service, then the next morning to play the regular Sunday morning Advent IV service? We don't even know if this church has vigil masses, nor whether they're part of what the music director normally is contracted to play. And he has already said he is busy at the Christmas season, which, given that he is proposing Christmas Carols on the first day of Advent, I suspect you can read in context as meaning time extending on both sides of Dec. 25, and not just the hyper-liturgically-correct days only on and after Dec. 25, hence probably including among other things the day and night before Advent IV. And that's a compromise?
Something we don't know, that could affect thinking about why the Music Director might come up with this proposal, and whether it's better to do it this way or not to do it at all, (or twist the Music Director's arm until he screams and make him do it a different way), we don't know is whether this church expects that Lessons and Carols will be the main Sunday service on a certain Sunday. We also don't know if the church and/or the choir and/or the Music Director think of Lessons and Carols as an inward looking service meant for the regular congregation, or as an outward looking service meant to attract a large number of people from outside the regular congregation.
If you were kidding, just chalk me up as a victim of Poe's Law.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
The church would be better off without a music director? Kill the choir and do without music in church fifty-two weeks of the year in order to avoid telling people the Nativity story with words and music at an unconventional time? That seems like an overly-hysterical reaction.
Not at all, and who's saying it would kill of the choir? But the music director is there to serve the Church's worship and not vice versa. Any music director who doesn't understand this is dangerous.
I've never heard a story of "church kicked out music director, choir thrives". I've only heard stories of "church kicked out music director, choir died". But sure, this church might be the exception. Contra this rosy hypothesis, I note that the disgruntled choir members, in this choir that you hypothesize wouldn't be killed by losing the music director, haven't stepped up to say "no, we don't like Nov. 30, but we don't actually need a music director, so we're going to put together the Lessons and Carols service ourselves on the date we think is proper." At least not as far as bib has reported.
We also don't know anything to suggest that this music director is not doing his best to serve the church's worship, and we don't know what the priest-in-charge at this church thinks of the Nov. 30 proposal, whether that priest thinks Nov. 30 serves the church's worship or not.
We know that some people in the choir, and bib, don't like the proposal. SOP when any change is proposed in a church. I'd like bib to show up and fill in some of the major blanks in this story.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Well, yes, I was rather asssuming the worst.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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The worst about the music director but the best about the choir, it seems to me.
As far as disgruntled choirs go:
Some members of our choir started to complain about singing the Easter Vigil. Eventually we discontinued that service.
At another time, some choir members complained about being asked (not required) if they wanted to go sing at the Cathedral as part of a massed choir for the ordination of a member of our parish. "Heck no, we don't know her, why would we want to bother going?" was the general sentiment.
So disgruntled choir members by themselves don't persuade me that anything wrong is happening. I'm often sympathetic to the problems facing choir members, but there's such a vacuum of information about this situation, and it would be so in character for church members to be complaining about CHANGE OH NO that I'm not particularly swayed yet.
[ 15. September 2014, 21:54: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I assumed bib's church would still have mass on Christmas. Why would you hire a church musician who couldn't work on Christmas? Better tell him now not to plan anything for Easter.
The Lessons and Carols service is not necessarily held on Christmas Day. In fact I've never been in a church that had their Lessons and Carols service on Christmas Day. (And as long as we're speculating: the choir might also revolt at being obliged to commit to a big service on The Day Itself.) So we don't know that the music director can't work on Christmas. And we also don't know whether the music director's contract includes working on Christmas. Our Christmas Day services used to be without music (IIRC).
Easter is a different story because it's on a Sunday. But for the time around Easter different churches may have different practices for the services of Holy Week, as to whether the music director is contracted to be available for them or not.
I thought somebody up thread implied bib said lessons and carols was the Christmas service. I thought I must have missed it. Nevermind
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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To answer some questions: We would usually hold Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve in the early evening followed later in the evening by Midnight Mass. This has always worked very well and we have a packed church of regular and irregular worshippers.
The current minister is in retirement mode and apparently agreed to the Music director's idea just to keep the peace with him. Unfortunately nobody thought to ask the choir if it would be acceptable. All the other usual services will not change and we will still have Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve.
We don't really want to remove our music director - after all how easy is it to find someone to fulfil the post? He is a keen musician and a committed Christian and is generally liked by the congregation.
We have attempted in the past to hold an Advent Carol service on Advent Sunday, but the attendance has been abysmal, so abandoned future attempts.
The choir has suggested that we compromise and hold Nine Lessons and Carols on Sunday 14th December this year even though that is still Advent, but have been met with a firm no. The minister says 'go and talk to the Music Director, not me'.
I don't think the congregation knows as yet what is happening, but I am guessing that they won't be enthusiastic.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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bib, thanks for filling in the details.
How long has your minister been in retirement mode? And does he have a definite retirement date in mind, or is he just going to be in retirement mode for some indefinite period of time, driving everyone around him crazy?
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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bib, I didn't quite note your denomination- are you Anglican? ISTM that this is the sort of problem that the Rural Dean or Archdeacon might be asked to get involved with (as a symptom of what appears, if I may say so, to be your minister's neglect of his/her duties while running down to retirement).
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
This is a situation where I think you really need to think about the expectations of the people who are (hopefully) going to attend - especially non-regulars.
If I were a very occasional attender, coming to a carol service in December, I would probably be very disappointed to find that we weren't singing all the "traditional" Christmas carols. And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
In December, people want to sing "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc. If you give 'em what they want, who knows - they may want to come back another time. In my experience, Christmas carols and readings on or after Advent 3 works well. People enjoy and go away happy.
(Doing it on November 30th is way too early, IMHO.)
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
This is a situation where I think you really need to think about the expectations of the people who are (hopefully) going to attend - especially non-regulars.
If I were a very occasional attender, coming to a carol service in December, I would probably be very disappointed to find that we weren't singing all the "traditional" Christmas carols. And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
In December, people want to sing "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc. If you give 'em what they want, who knows - they may want to come back another time. In my experience, Christmas carols and readings on or after Advent 3 works well. People enjoy and go away happy.
Indeed. But I hope they would still go away happy if "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" was the first (or second if you have to begin with "Once in Royal David's City") carol/hymn and they then sang "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc as well. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Any well-balanced 9 Lessons should have hymns and carols that reflect the readings.
Since the first 5 readings are not about Christmas per se the first vaguely Christmassy thing would be after 5th lesson (the annunciation). Lessons 6, 7 and 8 are about the birth, visit of the shepherds and arrival of the magi; lesson 9 is 'St John unfolds the great mystery of the incarnation' so not specifically Christmassy either.
IMO (and notwithstanding the long tradition in Cambridge) Once in Royal is not an ideal choice for first hymn; a better one would be Come thou Redeemer of the earth (Veni Redemptor gentium) which is the Office Hymn for Christmas Eve - but O come, O come Emmanuel is a good alternative.
There are plenty of stirring Advent hymns which can be sung in between Lessons 1 to 5 so really no need for a surfeit of shepherds, angels, etc.
As for when it should be: I know the purist view is after Christmas Day but this doesn't work in the modern world where many people use that time to visit scattered family; a compromise is the evening of the fourth Sunday in Advent.
No, you don't need a Christmas tree in church and decorations using just greenery and some red candles can look stunning.
As for the organist who is dictating this: it can't be. If he has managed to get his schedule so tangled he can't do it himself then a replacement organist needs to be found PDQ.
Of course, a well-run parish sorts out the dates of special services for Christmas in the first 3 months of the year... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on
:
I don't know bib's situation, but here in the Untied Methodist Church of the sunny South (USA) we think Advent is pre-Christmas, and think we have to break out the Christmas carols at 1 Advent. Christmas is done by Christmas Eve. The calendar is a mere suggestion and the 12 days of Christmas is a song.
Frustrating. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
And if you have a happy-clappy church like mine they don't know what Advent is. The Christmas season here is the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas.
bib, I feel your pain.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
This is a situation where I think you really need to think about the expectations of the people who are (hopefully) going to attend - especially non-regulars.
If I were a very occasional attender, coming to a carol service in December, I would probably be very disappointed to find that we weren't singing all the "traditional" Christmas carols. And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
In December, people want to sing "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc. If you give 'em what they want, who knows - they may want to come back another time. In my experience, Christmas carols and readings on or after Advent 3 works well. People enjoy and go away happy.
Indeed. But I hope they would still go away happy if "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" was the first (or second if you have to begin with "Once in Royal David's City") carol/hymn and they then sang "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc as well. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
Yep. I'd say that was perfectly acceptable.
(But then, any occasion to sing O Come, O Come Emmanuel is acceptable to me...)
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
Thanksgiving to Christmas Day is secular Christmas. Why not have Nine Lessons and Carols for secular Christmas? Maybe include some Advent hymns and scripture but focus on secular readings and songs of the season. The carols are plentiful. Coming up with nine appropriate readings would be tricky. I'm thinking "Twas the Night Before Christmas" and something from "A Christmas Carol." Adding "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" might be too much emphasis on Santa Claus.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
I'm starting to think I might cancel Christmas this year and just go on a long cruise to wherever the ship will take me. It shouldn't cause everyone such heartache.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
If I were a very occasional attender, coming to a carol service in December, I would probably be very disappointed to find that we weren't singing all the "traditional" Christmas carols. And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
In December, people want to sing "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc. If you give 'em what they want, who knows - they may want to come back another time. In my experience, Christmas carols and readings on or after Advent 3 works well. People enjoy and go away happy.
[/QB]
On the other hand, it seems to me as though they are going to eventually be disappointed in any case once they discover that the Church's season and that of commerce overlap only slightly. It's neither pastoral nor evangelistic to misrepresent the Church.
We try to pre-empt any such disappointment by advertising our L&C service as an Advent L&C up front. I haven't heard any complaints from visitors yet, just compliments on the beauty of the music.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Some members of our choir started to complain about singing the Easter Vigil. Eventually we discontinued that service.
The Easter Vigil is the most important liturgy of the year.
Something's goner very, very wrong.
Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on
:
Count me among those appalled by this enormity. The world, in order to get its filthy lucre, cries "Christmas, CHRISTMAS, MERRRRRRRRRRRRRY EFFING CHRISTMAS!!!" as soon as All Saints Eve is past. But it should not be that way in God's Holy Church.
Advent is a season of preparation for Christ's coming. Is a service of Advent carols appropriate then? Yes, and I've had the pleasure to attend excellent ones in Oxford. But Christmas Nine Lessons and Carols services before Christmas Eve are more worldly than holy. Only in the most exceptional circumstances (such as a school chapel closed well before Christmas) is such excusable.
I better stop before I say something unholy.
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
Nice way to manufacture outrage.
There's a bidding, the lessons, the prayers. No lecture.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
D'ya reckon Jo and Joe Blow notice those?
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Not sure why it's associated with Christmas, probably just due to it being warming and an indulgence from the booze and creaminess.
Your expertise on North America has failed you; eggnog is always served cold.
If you want it warm, go to a German Christmas market. Eierpunsch is served warm, and pretty potent it is too.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
I don't like carol services. I only put the Christmas cards up in my home on 24 December.
However, carols services, inevitably for schools, have taken place in Advent ever since my childhood.
Good pastoral reasons can be made for having a carol service sometime in December, as Oscar suggests. It need not be giving into commercialism
But it is certainly not for the choir master to make that decision.
Nor is it for the choir to decide whether or not to celebrate the Easter Vigil.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But it is certainly not for the choir master to make that decision.
And if the minister has abdicated his control over that decision, and has decided to go along with someone else's preferences?
I'm wondering why the minister, now that we know that he's not caring to exert any control in this matter, is not getting the same level of opprobrium on this thread as the music director got.
quote:
Nor is it for the choir to decide whether or not to celebrate the Easter Vigil.
I don't know if the Easter Vigil at my church was discontinued because some choir members didn't want to do it, or if it was discontinued for other reasons.
Now people who want to celebrate the Easter Vigil are directed to go to the Easter Vigil at the cathedral.
[ 17. September 2014, 13:39: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
What would be the pastoral reason for having a Christmas carol service in Advent that isn't giving into commercialism?
What are the pastoral reason for having a Christmas carol service in the first place?
In my experience, priests who buck tradition and even canons for "pastoral reasons" are doing so because they want to do so. The actual pastoral reasons are vague or nonexistent. For instance, Oscar the Grouch mentions this theoretical person coming to a carol service in Advent and getting mad that the church choir isn't singing Christmas carols during Advent. How likely is this to happen given proper advertisement of the service? Having a Christmas carol service during Advent because people expect to sing Christmas carols during Christmas is giving into the commercialization of Christmas because the commercialization of Christmas is why people expect to sing Christmas carols during Advent in the first place.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
I think there is a useful distinction to be made between formal and informal. The formal church programme follows the Church's year, so we sing Advent Carols in Advent and Christmas Carols at Christmas.
However, there is also an informal programme, which sees the choir singing Christmas Carols at Dickensian Evening in the Town Square, right at the beginning of Advent, and also Christmas Carols at the many carol services in eg. residential homes around the parish.
We seem to be able to operate the two in parallel somehow.
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
The Christmas Carol takes place on Christmas Eve not early December. Singing Christmas carols in early December and blaming Charles Dickens makes no sense either. Why not visit retirement homes during Christmas and sing carols? Again, 12 Days of Christmas isn't just a song about receiving odd gifts from one's true love.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Probably because many of the residents and half the choir are the other end of the country with relatives.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
The pastoral reason is that for some reason people who don't often come to church, like carol services in the period before the country shuts down for two weeks. Sentimental, maybe, but they like it. And it may make some think more seriously.
I can put up with my church doing carol services which I don't need to attend.
The thing that irritates me no end is how in the C of E Mothering Sunday seems to have replaced Lent 4.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In my experience, priests who buck tradition and even canons for "pastoral reasons" are doing so because they want to do so. The actual pastoral reasons are vague or nonexistent. For instance, Oscar the Grouch mentions this theoretical person coming to a carol service in Advent and getting mad that the church choir isn't singing Christmas carols during Advent. How likely is this to happen given proper advertisement of the service?
In my experience, extremely likely, even among Christians. And "the (wo)man on the street", who neither understands the niceties of Advent and Christmas nor is likely to know very many Advent carols, isn't going to listen to a long explanation of why their favourite carol wasn't included.
quote:
Having a Christmas carol service during Advent because people expect to sing Christmas carols during Christmas is giving into the commercialization of Christmas because the commercialization of Christmas is why people expect to sing Christmas carols during Advent in the first place.
Perhaps, perhaps not - I suspect that the early "popular" singing of Christmas carols may predate the modern secularised Christmas. But what I - as a Nonconformist - fail to understand is why the "human tradition" (for it has no specific Biblical mandate) of the Liturgical calendar should take precedence over what may be genuine evangelistic opportunities offered by Christmas carol services. That sounds very inward-looking and precious to me.
As a matter of fact, I like Advent and do not like having Christmas carols sung too early - I once knew a Baptist church where they were sung throughout December and therefore "used up" by Christmas itself. But a careful working towards Christmas, with some carols used on Advent 4 and possibly Advent 3, seems perfectly acceptable.
As it happens, our own Carol Service is held on one of those two dates (depending on the vagaries of the calendar and the availability of choristers) and always starts with at least two, if not more, Advent carols and hymns, moving in through the story to the "Christmas" ones.
Services after Christmas just don't seem to work; whether we like it or not, most folk think that "Christmas is over" after the 26th, and many go into "holiday mode" as well, at least in Britain.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
PS to Venbede (cross-posted):
I don't mind Mothering Sunday replacing Lent 4 (except that it disturbs the flow of Easter preparation). But I do mind that it has been replaced by the tacky "Mothers' Day" which is something quite different!
[ 17. September 2014, 14:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Lent 4 is Refreshment Sunday.
I was taught that for a Catholic (not necessarily roman) it's the one day in Lent one can have sex... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
quote:
originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Probably because many of the residents and half the choir are the other end of the country with relatives.
Then across the country with family is where to sing Christmas carols.
quote:
originally posted by venbede:
The pastoral reason is that for some reason people who don't often come to church, like carol services in the period before the country shuts down for two weeks. Sentimental, maybe, but they like it. And it may make some think more seriously.
I doubt it. Look, every single priest tells themselves that if the Christmas or Easter services or good enough people will come back next week. The ones that do are a statistical anomaly. Capitulating to the commercialization of Christmas on the off chance that doing so might make somebody "think more seriously" is simply not worth it. At some point, I'd rather say enough is enough. This is how we celebrate Christmas and why. If you want to join with us, you are most welcome.
quote:
originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In my experience, extremely likely, even among Christians. And "the (wo)man on the street", who neither understands the niceties of Advent and Christmas nor is likely to know very many Advent carols, isn't going to listen to a long explanation of why their favourite carol wasn't included.
I'm willing to risk the occasional person being upset about Christmas carols not being sung at what was clearly advertised as an Advent service. Heck, nearly every decision I make disappoints somebody who regularly attends. Why compromise on what I consider to be a very important principle to avoid offending somebody who I know will likely never be back even if I made the decision that pleased them?
quote:
originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps, perhaps not - I suspect that the early "popular" singing of Christmas carols may predate the modern secularised Christmas. But what I - as a Nonconformist - fail to understand is why the "human tradition" (for it has no specific Biblical mandate) of the Liturgical calendar should take precedence over what may be genuine evangelistic opportunities offered by Christmas carol services. That sounds very inward-looking and precious to me.
One, most Christians in the world reject the implied premise in the biblical mandate statement. Two, I don't see it as much of an evangelical opportunity. Three, if it is, I'm happy to leave that evangelical opportunity to nonconformists. Week long revivals where preachers from out of town come and preach hell fire and brimstone are also evangelistic opportunities (and probably more effective than Christmas carol services in Advent) that Anglicans miss.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Most Christians in the world reject the implied premise in the biblical mandate statement.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. All I meant is that there is no specific Biblical basis for the Liturgical Calendar as it stands, with seasons such as Advent, Lent, etc. That doesn't mean that these aren't good things to have: they are. But they aren't "primary doctrine" and so IMO can be bent as necessary as circumstances demand or suggest.
The Jewish year, on the other hand, was laid down in the Mosaic Law.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I was taught that for a Catholic (not necessarily roman) it's the one day in Lent one can have sex...
Husband: "Not tonight, dear. It's Lent."
Wife: "To whom? And for how long?"
(I'll get me coat...)
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Most Christians in the world reject the implied premise in the biblical mandate statement.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. All I meant is that there is no specific Biblical basis for the Liturgical Calendar as it stands, with seasons such as Advent, Lent, etc. That doesn't mean that these aren't good things to have: they are. But they aren't "primary doctrine" and so IMO can be bent as necessary as circumstances demand or suggest.
The Jewish year, on the other hand, was laid down in the Mosaic Law.
For some of us, tradition is also binding and commercialization of a holiday by the secular culture is not a good reason to break tradition.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
:
But precedent for the liturgical seasons is perfectly Biblical. Festivals such as: - Passover; Pentecost; Tabernacles, are to be found referred to there.
If the same principle was right then, why should it not be right now?
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
For some of us, tradition is also binding and commercialization of a holiday by the secular culture is not a good reason to break tradition.
I absolutely agree that the commercialisation of the season does not, of itself, give a reason to break with tradition. It is clearly good for Christians to remain counter-cultural rather than being subsumed by it.
I also agree - as you said - that Christmas does not necessarily provide the good evangelistic opportunity we sometimes think it does; as a friend of mine once said, "It's the easiest time of year to get people into church and the hardest time to get them to think seriously about their faith". Nevertheless I also feel that the churches have no option but to engage people in the surrounding world within their own cultures rather than expecting them to necessarily accommodate to ours.
Ultimately I feel that tradition, however full of wisdom it may be and however much stability and continuity it offers, is not absolutely and finally binding in the same way as Scripture. Indeed, it may well need careful reinterpretation in different contexts. Might I venture to suggest that that is precisely Jesus did with Jewish tradition in his day?
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
But precedent for the liturgical seasons is perfectly Biblical. Festivals such as: - Passover; Pentecost; Tabernacles, are to be found referred to there.
If the same principle was right then, why should it not be right now?
Because the Jewish liturgical year is specifically detailed in the Bible, while the Christian year is not. This is also true, to a degree, of worship practices: the OT gives detailed provisions, the NT only offers principles and hints (eg 1 Corinthians 12-14).
Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on
:
Next time you think about the value of liturgicall seasons give some thought to the Southern Hemisphere.
Easter comes with oncoming cold, winter darkness etc. Christmas as the beginning of hot sleepy summers.
Posted by Stephen (# 40) on
:
The trouble is if you held it after Christmas people wouldn't come. We hold our carol service which is the civic one as close to Christmas as one can say on 21st December or thereabouts.
Advent Sunday is far too early - and my immediate response was 'who is running the church'? As L'organist pointed out these decisions are properly the province of the incumbent together with the PCC. Of course the organist/choirmaster should have an input, but at the end of the day it's the incumbent who carries the can for the parish
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
It is rather nice to be on a messageboard and find you respect and like someone coming from a completely different tradition from yourself.
Baptist Trainfan, I mean you and I'm glad to hear from you.
The liturgical approach is very important to me. That's why I don't eat meat during Advent and I don't put the Christmas cards up until Christmas Eve.
But the reasons for liturgical seasons are not primarily Biblical precedent. BT is quite right there although s/he appears to have more liturgical sensitivity than all too many Anglicans.
The Orthodox Church doesn't have Advent as such (just a fasting period for 40 days before 25/12).
And Advent is not such a contrast to Christmas as Lent is to Easter. Look at the Breviary and Tridentine Missal and you'll find plenty of texts used in the King's 9 lessons - Annunciation, Isaiah...
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
Yes, BT is talking a lot of sense here- as always.
Posted by NatDogg (# 14347) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, BT is talking a lot of sense here- as always.
Indeed BT is.
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
Fine, no doubt the converts will pour in by the thousands from Christmas carol services done in Advent. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Probably not, but the sky won't fall in either.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
But precedent for the liturgical seasons is perfectly Biblical. Festivals such as: - Passover; Pentecost; Tabernacles, are to be found referred to there.
If the same principle was right then, why should it not be right now?
Because the Jew*** liturgical year is specifically detailed in the Bible, while the Christian year is not. This is also true, to a degree, of worship practices: the OT gives detailed provisions, the NT only offers principles and hints (eg 1 Corinthians 12-14).
Not necessarily everything is to be found in scripture. To cut a long story short, basing one's principles on scripture alone, may be a tall order. The threefold yardstick is that the factors of Scripture, Tradition and Reason exist together on an equal par.
But * think that is a discussion for another thread.
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Stephen:
The trouble is if you held it after Christmas people wouldn't come. We hold our carol service which is the civic one as close to Christmas as one can say on 21st December or thereabouts.
Advent Sunday is far too early - and my immediate response was 'who is running the church'? As L'organist pointed out these decisions are properly the province of the incumbent together with the PCC. Of course the organist/choirmaster should have an input, but at the end of the day it's the incumbent who carries the can for the par***
* don't find this response true whatsoever. We do a full Advent Lessons and Carols on the afternoon of Advent Sunday, and it's quite popular. We then do Christmas Lesson and Carols on New Years Eve to an absolutely packed house. Aside from Easter Day, * 'd say it's the biggest service we do. It's at 5:00 or so, and sometimes people come dressed for the evening, and it's a lot of fun. If people want a time in the Christmastide to do Christmas Lessons and Carols, let me suggest late New Year's Eve afternoon. It's a great time.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Perhaps a Pond difference?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
It is one of the few days that almost everyone has off of work. Most office workers go home early the day before if they don't already have New Year's Eve off as well.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
It is one of the few days that almost everyone has off of work. Most office workers go home early the day before if they don't already have New Year's Eve off as well.
* was thinking more in terms of whether people tend to be away visiting relatives and holding parties as they do in the UK
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
It is one of the few days that almost everyone has off of work. Most office workers go home early the day before if they don't already have New Year's Eve off as well.
* was thinking more in terms of whether people tend to be away visiting relatives and holding parties as they do in the UK
Oh. Yeah it is the same here.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
It is very difficult to do anything much after Christmas in Australia. Many people head off to the beach on Boxing Day(or before), the kids are all on l***thy Summer holidays and the choir at our church is on holiday from Christmas Day until the end of January.
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
It is one of the few days that almost everyone has off of work. Most office workers go home early the day before if they don't already have New Year's Eve off as well.
* was thinking more in terms of whether people tend to be away visiting relatives and holding parties as they do in the UK
Oh. Yeah it is the same here.
* meant to say it's a particularly good time because people won't be headed off to their parties for several more hours, so it's a nice time to get a spiritual respite before the festivities begin. And like * said before, a lot of people come dressed for the evening so there's black tie, gowns, etc.
* don't see why if you're visiting on New Year's Day that would preclude doing something the afternoon before.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Your chances of getting anyone to a Lessons & Carols in the UK on News Years Day would be nil.
NYD is traditionally either for recovering from a hangover, having a family lunch or going to the post-Christmas sales.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The threefold yardstick is that the factors of Scripture, Tradition and Reason exist together on an equal par.
But * think that is a discussion for another thread.
Perhaps one entitled "Fond Inventions of the Nineteenth Century."
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by L'organist:
Your chances of getting anyone to a Lessons & Carols in the UK on News Years Day would be nil.
NYD is traditionally either for recovering from a hangover, having a family lunch or going to the post-Christmas sales.
That's why * suggested our practice of having it New Year's Eve afternoon! Before everyone starts with the hangover inducement!
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by L'organist:
Your chances of getting anyone to a Lessons & Carols in the UK on News Years Day would be nil.
NYD is traditionally either for recovering from a hangover, having a family lunch or going to the post-Christmas sales.
Don't forget the panto.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
... The threefold yardstick is that the factors of Scripture, Tradition and Reason exist together on an equal par.
But * think that is a discussion for another thread.
Up to a point Lord Copper, with it's original meaning.
Reason is a tool we apply to scripture, and under scripture's tutelage. It isn't an * *******ent, free-standing, authority of its own. And likewise, with Tradition, it too is not an * *******ent, free-standing authority of its own. If one wants to get an idea of how it fits with scripture and reason, it is a good idea to start with "Of Ceremonies why some be abol***ed, and some retained".
Sorry EFF, this has been b*gg***d about by these silly asterisks.
Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on
:
Enoch, even with all the *********, you are right on target.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
* dunno; there's plenty of people in the UK take their Christmas decorations down the day after Boxing Day. The concept that Christmas goes past the 26th is more honoured in the breach (and yes * do know the original meaning of that phrase; * 'm using the colloquial one). Most UKians would find it exceedingly odd to be singing Christmas Carols by New Year.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Why, Valentine tat and Easter eggs are on sale by then - with barbecues probably soon to follow.
[ 19. September 2014, 12:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Crap spouted by Prester John:
quote:
Crap spouted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How big an event is New Year itself in the US? There may be some cultural differences.
It is one of the few days that almost everyone has off of work. Most office workers go home early the day before if they don't already have New Year's Eve off as well.
* was thinking more in terms of whether people tend to be away visiting relatives and holding parties as they do in the UK
Oh. Yeah it is the same here.
Plus, there's football all day long on TV. Many of the great University conference championship games are on NYD, so you'll see many gatherings of family and/or friends sitting around watching the games and eating and drinking.
eta: And while * find quite charming the picture of folks dressed up for NYE parties attending a Lessons and Carols beforehand, around here people would say they are "too busy getting ready" for the evening festivities to attend a church service.
[ 19. September 2014, 14:38: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Mamacita:
Plus, there's football all day long on TV. Many of the great University conference championship games are on NYD, so you'll see many gatherings of family and/or friends sitting around watching the games and eating and drinking.
eta: And while * find quite charming the picture of folks dressed up for NYE parties attending a Lessons and Carols beforehand, around here people would say they are "too busy getting ready" for the evening festivities to attend a church service.
Oops. Forgot about college ball. My alma mater sucks so * don't really follow it. Football, America's true religion.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
:
It's a change seen in my lifetime. Right up till * had fin***ed my first degree, church carol services were just after Christmas. (School ones etc. were before right enough). People take down their decorations round here on twelfth night, if they think about it at all, but maybe there's some geographic variation there.
The real advantage of doing an Advent carol service (yes * know it's already been suggested) is that it is easier to get through to people what it is all about. Why does we leave in silence? What exactly are we looking forward to? etc. Certainly our experience over the years is that congregations for this one have built year-on-year. Though if you stuff it full of Christmas stuff, nobody will pick that up.
Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by dj_ordinaire:
Is the situation outlined ideal? No.
Is it better for people to go to a Christmas service at this time than not at all? Yes.
Of such things are compromises made, unfortunately! Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Or simply the logistics of the thing. Especially if they might be using a pickup orchestra, extra tech resources...
Christmas services take one almighty fuckload of resource to be pulled off slickly.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Crap spouted by Alex Cockell:
Or simply the logistics of the thing. Especially if they might be using a pickup orchestra, extra tech resources...
Christmas services take one almighty fuckload of resource to be pulled off slickly.
No they don't. All you need is an organ, a choir and a pile of hymn books.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
and preferably no congregation
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
:
It's not in the Book of Common Order, and there aren't that many Christmas carols in the hymn book.
Thread Closed
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
:
More Bunny Fluff than * care to see. According to the principle of Double Predestination, this thread is going to....
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
... Ecclesiantics.
Cheers
Ariel
Heaven Host
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
Back so soon, thread? We hardly had time to miss you.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
:
You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
You just don't fit with the new order. My objections to Christmas Carols are terribly repetitive, so perhaps you can go cheer up Louise.
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
:
The perennial debates around "Christmas music in Advent" definitely belong here. I don't know why it hasn't been consigned thus before.
And why does Louise need cheering up?
[ 20. September 2014, 18:14: Message edited by: Leaf ]
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
So apart from lining up on whether or not Christmas carols could or should be sung in Advent, is there any advice for bib?
It seems to me the problem is very much not about Christmas carols in Advent. Things to consider:
-- the minister is in retirement mode which perhaps doesn't contribute to the smooth functioning of the parish. Is there a soon--ish date by when he's going to retire? Perhaps best to just leave things be until that happens. If there isn't such a date, then that's a problem, more than scheduling of specific services.
-- the minister is delegating the scheduling of services to someone else. The someone else can hardly be blamed for pleasing themselves when the minister has given that permission.
-- if some people in the choir are unhappy, then, unless bib is also in the choir, the choir members should be left to sort out their own way of dealing with the issue.
-- if you raise the issue to the parish council, it's useful to sound someone out on this issue verbally first to find out what approach might be likely to fly with the council as a whole. I suspect "people are used to this happening on Christmas Eve and have shown they won't come so early in November, so this is a complete waste of a service and evangelism on Nov. 30" will fly better than "liturgical calendar, sinful to give in to the world, the sky is falling in."
-- what has changed this year that caused the schedule change? Has the music director been unhappy with the schedule for years, and the timing of preparation for it -- so that when the minister goes into retirement mode and gives the music director his head, the music director snatches at what he's always wanted as a solution? Or has the music director's schedule and obligations changed this year, which makes the previous schedule problematic? In either case, this is an issue between the music director and whoever is in charge of managing and relations with the music director. If that's the minister who's in retirement mode, then you're back to the real problem: that the minister is in retirement mode.
If the service is going to go ahead anyway, then I think the best course of action is to be an eirenic rather than fulminating presence about it. Choir members who object to the timing are presumably free to discover that they have some other obligation on Nov. 30 that will prevent them singing on that date. The most practical thing to do is to get the word out early about the schedule change, and also to have someone present at the church at the previously normal time on Christmas Eve, to let people who haven't got the word know what is going on when they arrive to find no service.
I'm still puzzled by the lack of censure for the minister on this thread. People were quick to say that this was a travesty, that the music minister should not be in charge of the scheduling, and they would never permit this to happen in their parish. But barely a peep of criticism once we found out that it's the minister who has abdicated his responsibilities and is permitting this scheduling to take place. "Go talk to the music director" is not the reply of someone who is taking any responsibility for the scheduling of services.
[ 22. September 2014, 01:50: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
As I am a member of the choir, I raised the matter at a choir practice to try and open discussion. However, as usual, most people sat on their hands rather than speak publicly even though I know they are unhappy. The music director was quite forthright and stated that December was far too busy for him and most other people to be bothered with carols, so he thought it was better to get it 'out of the way' as early as possible!! I also attempted to speak to the minister, but he just told me that he didn't wish to discuss it and that I should speak to the music director. I am frustrated beyond belief and would dearly love to 'take my bat and ball and go home', but that would be childish. I don't know what else to do.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
Ah, you're a member of the choir! That had been quite unclear to me.
One thing to think through: what is the worst thing that could happen if the service goes ahead on Nov. 30? Air all your catastrophic fears. Write them down. Identify concretely and specifically. Sit with them for awhile. Write them here if you like. Then think about: OK, assuming all that happens, what will I do?
How are normal relations between the choir and the music director?
Something else which is an issue beyond Christmas carols in Advent is that the decision was made without consulting with the choir, to see who would be available. A choir is usually a volunteer group and usually wise music directors I would think understand that part of their job is to lead by persuasion rather than diktat. Leaving Nov. 30 completely out of it, how can the choir persuade the music director and minister to check with them for availability before scheduling large services at other than their usual times?
Supposing the music director, for whatever reason, can't rehearse and play for a lessons and carols service on any other date than Nov. 30: would you rather see the Nov. 30 service happen, or not happen? And if you would prefer "not happen", what would you like to see happen instead of a Nov. 30 service (bearing in mind that for this hypothetical the music director won't be part of a service on a different date)? None of that may be in your sphere of influence, but it will help clarify the issues for you around this.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
I suppose you could absent yourself from this particular service, due to personal reasons / religious differences, but attend all the services you do feel happy with. Other people in the choir may not be too happy but may have chosen not to make a big thing of it for their own personal reasons. There is no need for everyone to act in the same way.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
As stated above, the real problem seems to lie with the minister here, who appears simply to have given up taking any responsibility. I'd say again, refer it up the line to the Rural Dean / Archdeacon or equivalent.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
Albertus, what do you think the Rural Dean could do?
I think it is likely that this is a fait accompli. In my experience in the US Episcopal church, the next level up prefers to direct things back to be worked out within the particular church, and would be unlikely to overturn a decision of the minister and unlikely to step in to take over the managing of the relationship between the minister and the music director.
This church has survived at least one year with a low-attendance special service in early-mid Advent ISTM it will probably survive this year too.
The posters in Ecclesiantics are a non-representative group, in my experience, so it may well be that the Rural Dean's reaction is more like Baptist Trainfan's than like that of other posters who would never permit it.
I doubt the Rural Dean has the power to force the music director to lead a service at a time he doesn't want to: that's a matter between the music director and those specifically in charge of overseeing his contract, and, beyond the contract, seeing the music director's side of things also. And that probably has to be a longer-term clarification, and a personnel issue about work conditions, involving people with authority who care to take it on. It can't be done if the minister doesn't think it's worth it, and it can't be done directly by regular parishioners and choristers like bib who don't like the decisions being taken, because they don't have the authority for those types of negotiations.
[ 22. September 2014, 16:20: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
Also, looking at it another way, has the minister abdicated responsibility? He's decided that, considering the various constituencies in the church, of which the music director is one, that he's content for the service to be on Nov. 30. If the Rural Dean says "you should take more responsibility for the scheduling of services" and the minister says "I think Nov. 30 is an acceptable date, all things considered," what then? Can the Rural Dean dictate to the minister when to schedule services, especially extra services? The Rural Dean might have a chat with the minister about "some people seem to be unhappy about this" and the minister will say "yes I know, there are always differing visions and desires in a church."
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
My comment was not about the specific issue of the scheduling of services: more the degree of (non-) responsibility for the management of the church/parish that the minister seems to be showing. As you yourself said upthread:
quote:
I'm still puzzled by the lack of censure for the minister on this thread. People were quick to say that this was a travesty, that the music minister should not be in charge of the scheduling, and they would never permit this to happen in their parish. But barely a peep of criticism once we found out that it's the minister who has abdicated his responsibilities and is permitting this scheduling to take place. "Go talk to the music director" is not the reply of someone who is taking any responsibility for the scheduling of services.
ISTM from what bib has told us that the timing of the carol service is a symptom of a wider neglect on the minister's part. That is something that should be taken up the line.
[ 22. September 2014, 21:30: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
These things are not easy. In my own (Congregationalist) setting, I as Minister have very little "clout" but have to do my best to take people along with me. As it happens I have at times wanted to do things differently from our MD, but the lay church leaders (aka Deacons) and the Church Meeting of members have never been prepared to turn "hint" into "push" or "shove", even when they largely agree with me.
Nor is there anyone "up the line" I can turn to in order to add extra pressure - the position of our Regional Ministers is (unlike a Bishop's) largely advisory, unless we stray into the realm of disciplinary procedures or illegality.
But even in a more hierarchical and episcopalian setting, ultimately one has to reach happy consensus and agreement. Even if the MD is under some kind of breach of contract - which seems unlikely in this case - all that would result from an invocation of the "proper rules" would be more dissent and ill-feeling.
IMO he definitely, and as a matter of common politeness, should have discussed things with the choir before deciding what he was going to do. Methinks that he is one of those MDs who very much sees their role as "directing" without debate. Has he done anything similar before?
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
It's not the MD I'm suggesting that the person or people up the line should deal with, but the minister. If the minister is falling down on the job, whoever the minister is responsible to needs to know about it and do something about it.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
Is it really a good example of how we are known for our love for one another if as soon as there's a disagreement about the way ministry is done, our first, or even second, reaction is to snitch to the headmaster?
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
:
I've been reading quietly and now I want to ask a question that seems obvious to me:
Why are you doing a service of Christmas Lessons and Carols at all? What's the point?
Let me explain. These services are relatively new as parish activities (no more than 60 years in Canada) -- and not a whole lot older in cathedrals. When they mark Chrismas, they're a fun way to add music. They're not required for anyone, anytime.
So you in your parish have to decide at some point why you're doing this. Is it to mark Christmas? Is it an excuse to let the choir sing more elaborate music for once? Is it an evangelistic service? Or is, perhaps, just "what we've always done"?
You don't need to answer the question here, but you in your parish (that is, not you yourself but the parish as a whole) needs to get straight why you're doing this.
John
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Although I don't think it is quite germane to the point of this thread, I think that's a very good question to ask. And most people wouldn't be able to give you an answer, except that "It's tradition" or "It's what churches do". Yet, as you rightly point out, it's not that old - the same as those two other "essentials" of the Church Year, Harvest Thanksgiving and Remembrance Sunday.
When I have queried this service, I usually get some replies along the line of "It brings people back together" (i.e. loved ones and friends who never go to church at other times of year"; or that, by bringing people into church, that it is evangelistic. After all, people are hearing the Bible passages about the birth of the Christ-child.
It is my contention that many people just enjoy singing the carols, grimly bear the more modern offerings foisted on them by the choir director, and let the readings wash over them in the mellow candlelit atmosphere. What they don't do is interact with the story in any meaningful personal and theological way.
I would personally love to scrap our lessons and carls service and do something quite different. But there have been howls of protest whenever I have suggested it. I have at least managed to bring in a couple of reflective poems or readings, meaningful intercessions and a short but carefully thought-out sermon - all with the aim of making people stop and think (we don't do the full nine lessons, so there is time for these things).
There have been one or two grumblings among those who see it largely as a musical occasion, but mostly the reaction has been positive.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is it really a good example of how we are known for our love for one another if as soon as there's a disagreement about the way ministry is done, our first, or even second, reaction is to snitch to the headmaster?
Oh FFS. It's not about 'snitching to the headmaster'. It is about a proper pastoral concern for both the parish and the minister. IME a person in any position of responsibility who just gives up- which is what seems to be happening here- is often in need of help. Even if s/he is not, the people to whom s/he has a responsibility- in this case, I mean the parish/ congregation- usually will be.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
posted by Baptist tTrainfan quote:
[B[...meaningful intercessions...[/B]
I'm lothe to state the bleedin' obvious but there shouldn't be any other kind?
Or are you saying, as a minister, that the intercessions in your own place are more often of the 'shopping list' variety? If so then, as minister, surely it is down to you to ensure that people who lead intercessions are taught/ advised/ encouraged to draw them up in a certain way.
In any case, rather than bellyaching about whether people's intentions are right in being at a carol service, wouldn't it be better to rejoice that they are there are move on from that point.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Although I don't think it is quite germane to the point of this thread, I think that's a very good question to ask. And most people wouldn't be able to give you an answer, except that "It's tradition" or "It's what churches do". Yet, as you rightly point out, it's not that old - the same as those two other "essentials" of the Church Year, Harvest Thanksgiving and Remembrance Sunday.
When I have queried this service, I usually get some replies along the line of "It brings people back together" (i.e. loved ones and friends who never go to church at other times of year"; or that, by bringing people into church, that it is evangelistic. After all, people are hearing the Bible passages about the birth of the Christ-child.
It is my contention that many people just enjoy singing the carols, grimly bear the more modern offerings foisted on them by the choir director, and let the readings wash over them in the mellow candlelit atmosphere. What they don't do is interact with the story in any meaningful personal and theological way.
I would personally love to scrap our lessons and carls service and do something quite different. But there have been howls of protest whenever I have suggested it. I have at least managed to bring in a couple of reflective poems or readings, meaningful intercessions and a short but carefully thought-out sermon - all with the aim of making people stop and think (we don't do the full nine lessons, so there is time for these things).
There have been one or two grumblings among those who see it largely as a musical occasion, but mostly the reaction has been positive.
BT's right on the money. I remember going to a carol service once and commenting (when asked) that the diction was a bit unclear on the choir items. The idea that I was actually wanting to hear the words was considered bizarre.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist tTrainfan quote:
[B[...meaningful intercessions...[/B]
I'm lothe to state the bleedin' obvious but there shouldn't be any other kind?
Or are you saying, as a minister, that the intercessions in your own place are more often of the 'shopping list' variety? If so then, as minister, surely it is down to you to ensure that people who lead intercessions are taught/ advised/ encouraged to draw them up in a certain way.
In any case, rather than bellyaching about whether people's intentions are right in being at a carol service, wouldn't it be better to rejoice that they are there are move on from that point.
The point I was really making is that the intercessions in a carol service of this kind are either vague and formulaic, or non-existent. But I take your point absolutely with reference to other services.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
The prayers at a carol service should not be 'prayer lite' - in fact I'd go further and say this is an opportunity to show transient attendees that the church prays for everyone.
If you're looking for a template you could do worse than look at the Bidding Prayer written by Milner-White for his Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols - its pretty comprehensive, although you might want to expand certain sections according to your own concerns.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
Just what I was thinking.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
...meaningful intercessions...
I'm lothe to state the bleedin' obvious but there shouldn't be any other kind? ...
That gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
A shopping list is more "meaningful intercessions" than the sentimental misplaced address-to-the-congregation-rephrased-as-an-address-to-God with fluffy aspirations and self congratulatory references that I've know all too often.
Naming specific persons and situations (without telling God what to do about them) avoids that.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
My pet hate is the intercessor who starts off petitions with "That you might ..." or similar.
As in "I might go shopping on Monday unless it rains".
Plain stupid.
Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on
:
Intercessions reflect the concerns of the people. This can be specific...eg we need rain or general...peace would be good.
They can be local...travellers during holiday times or global...ebola.
They relate these concerns to a desire to do God's will in whatever situation, capacity we have.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord. It seems that some people feel the need to use a special language in prayer that they would not normally use.
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies on my carols dilemma. I doubt if anything will change here except that I have been asked to sing in messiah the same day, so I might decide to jump ship and do this.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord.
Ah, the Prayers of the Just...!
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My pet hate is the intercessor who starts off petitions with "That you might ..." or similar.
That is avoided if the biddings are grammatically addressed to the congregation, giving them something to pray for, rather than addressed to God.
ie. Let us pray for Christopher our bishop
NOT Dear father God, we just really want to pray for our bishop Christopher and the many difficult decisions he has to make. Guide him in his work and on and on and on....
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord.
I know these as Jesus Weejus prayers: "Jesus Weejus thank you, and Jesus Weejus bless you..." etc.
Having shared that bit of snark, I am happy that anyone is praying at all! I would rather hear Jesus Weejus than condescending refusals to pray at all.
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My pet hate is the intercessor who starts off petitions with "That you might ..." or similar.
As in "I might go shopping on Monday unless it rains".
Plain stupid.
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to there. I like petitions introduced in that way, like this:
"That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord.
Lord, hear our prayer."
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Oh Basilica, have you no faith?
Might expresses possibility, chance or permission - he said he might be late
or a possibility relying on an unfulfilled condition - we might have won had we played better.
So your sample intercession quote:
That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord
can be interpreted
There is a chance you could give our bishop, and possibly their flock as well, your Spirit of unity and love - of course this could be dependent on our prayers because if we don't pray for us to be imbued with your Spirit it may not happen - but we pray to you anyway.
Is that really your intention?
Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on
:
The pressure to hold a Carol Service before 24th December is now irresistible unless you are quite sure that the congregation and choir will turn up. Not many churches will be in a position to do that, but those who can ought to.
I go with the modern tendency to hold a Carol Service on Advent 4, preferably in the evening, and, with the exception of children's services, that will be the first time any Christmas-specific hymns and carols will be sung. Until that service, it will all be Advent and general hymns except for the children's Christmas Tree service or whatever it's called this year.
I have no mission of having a Carol Service on the Sunday after Christmas. Turnout would be dreadful, as it is now such an important part of family time over the holiday.
On top of that, this year I will almost certainly need to take Christmas Day and the Sunday after Christmas off for family reasons!
[ 27. September 2014, 11:04: Message edited by: AndyB ]
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh Basilica, have you no faith?
Might expresses possibility, chance or permission - he said he might be late
or a possibility relying on an unfulfilled condition - we might have won had we played better.
So your sample intercession quote:
That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord
can be interpreted
There is a chance you could give our bishop, and possibly their flock as well, your Spirit of unity and love - of course this could be dependent on our prayers because if we don't pray for us to be imbued with your Spirit it may not happen - but we pray to you anyway.
Is that really your intention?
Nonsense: "might" in this context is the subjunctive of "may". It's slightly eccentric from sequence-of-tense perspective (I'd personally use "may" here, or omit the word altogether) but it's perfectly acceptable English grammar.
It's little different from "We pray, O Lord, that you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love." It is the construction that I was taught to call the "indirect command", though apparently no one else does.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Agreed. To pray (or ask) for something implies a measure of doubt as to the response - however certain we may feel about it! - and automatically attracts the subjunctive. "Might" is correct, "will" is not.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
If you don't mind me saying, this is nonsense.
Nobody asks God to do something with the vague thought that perhaps he might do it if he isn't too busy etc etc etc. , but we don't really mind if he doesn't.
quote:
That you might grant to N, our bishop, and to all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, we pray to you, O Lord
Is a more polite way of approaching a superior and saying
quote:
Please, please, please give N, our bishop, and all his/her people your Spirit of unity and love, but we want to say this politely because you are sovereign, and bigger than we are.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
God already knows what he is going to do vis-a-vis the bishop, and is unlikely to be swayed by our opinion.
Wouldn't it be better to pray for the bishop, that he **might** set his foot upon the path that God has prepared for him to trod.
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Wouldn't it be better to pray for the bishop, that he **might** set his foot upon the path that God has prepared for him to trod.
[grammar police] tread, not trod [/grammar police]
John
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
posted by Basilica quote:
Nonsense: "might" in this context is the subjunctive of "may". It's slightly eccentric from sequence-of-tense perspective (I'd personally use "may" here, or omit the word altogether) but it's perfectly acceptable English grammar.
Balderdash.
The subjunctive of may is may: might is the simple past of the verb.
If you want proof (other than close reading of Fowler) look no further than The Litany quote:
That it may please thee to illuminate all Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, with true knowledge and understanding ...
Whence may children absorb correct language and usage if not from public speech?
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
That it may please thee to illuminate all Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, with true knowledge and understanding ...
Oh dear. If they did that, they might start swimming rivers.
Miss Amanda will get her wrap and go do penance for forgetting how to conjugate "to tread".
Posted by Bax (# 16572) on
:
If true (and I can only assume it is some sort of mis-print) Sherborne Abbey seem to be able to trump the OP by having two school carol services in SEPTEMBER:
http://www.sherborneabbey.com/choir/musiclist.php?m=9&y=2014
Unless a "School carol service" has some sort of local significance that escapes me, I can only pray that is is error (and they are really beginning of term services of some sort) It would be early even for Michealmas, let alone Christmas...
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
:
If I had to guess I'd think it was meant to say harvest service rather than carol service.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Or an editorial aberration (cut-and-paste leads to many mistakes!)
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
The importance of proof-reading cannot be over-stated.
Its one thing to face a hymn with the last lines
Prostate before thy throne to lie
And gaze and gaze on thee.
and I've been asked to pray for His Majesty King George more than once; but its quite another to try to get a choir to sing at all when they see the next thing is
The choir will sing Penis Angelicus by Cesar Franck
Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's not primarily a liturgical atrocity; it is evangelically stupid and a catechetical catastrophe.
Church isn't a Hallmark card. The services teach. Teaching the Nativity in Advent is disastrous malpractice. And, your music director is an idiot.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Where is the like button when you need it?
Yes, this is just stupid. I am myself a priest, and would not allow this in my church.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
Hallelujah! Victory today when the music director admitted his error in programming the carols for Advent Sunday. They have been moved to the Sunday before Christmas. The choir is ecstatic. I still don't understand his thinking about Advent, but hopefully we can work on him.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Hallelujah! Victory today when the music director admitted his error in programming the carols for Advent Sunday. They have been moved to the Sunday before Christmas. The choir is ecstatic. I still don't understand his thinking about Advent, but hopefully we can work on him.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
Do you know what caused him to change his thinking?
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
I'd like to think it was my 'nagging' that changed his mind, but I think it was the fact that there is another big event on in my city at the same time to which I think a great many people would want to go in preference to the carol service. However, I'm hoping they will come to our service on December 21st.
Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on
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Very glad to hear the news, bib. Sounds like God's providence.
(Yes, the Lord does prefer Christmas services actually to be close to Christmas. )
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
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I can't help but think it's not a complete victory since the 4th Sunday of Advent is still very much not Christmas.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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I think that's a debate we've already had upthread ...
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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The 21st December isn't quite Christmas, but it is the best compromise we could negotiate. I hope no other shipmates have had to go through all of this at their churches.
[ 06. October 2014, 23:23: Message edited by: bib ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Well done bib and I hope that your service is a very happy and valuable occasion.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I can't help but think it's not a complete victory since the 4th Sunday of Advent is still very much not Christmas.
Being the Church should not, IMV, be about winning victories.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
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We avoid having arguments over a carol service before Christmas by having an Epiphany one instead - lots of Epiphany carols followed by a party with lots of food, drink and conviviality ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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Can't see that an Epiphany service would work in Australia as so many people go away for their Summer holidays immediately following Christmas. In fact our church choir is on a well deserved holiday over January.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Which seems to suggest that an over-rigid approach is simply inappropriate. Each parish and church must work out what "fits" best in its situation ... while not necessarily "selling out" entirely to popular culture. It's a fine balance!
Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on
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Liturgically speaking, which church season do you feel is the least appreciated, pop culture-wise?
Advent has to be right up there, no? We don't have much 'waiting penitentially' among our post-post-podern lives any more, really.
Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on
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Easter is a problem in the southern hemisphere. Season of mists and yellow fruitfullness?? doesn't tie in so easily with "new". it is even less compatible with secular Easter!
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Liturgically speaking, which church season do you feel is the least appreciated, pop culture-wise?
Advent has to be right up there, no? We don't have much 'waiting penitentially' among our post-post-podern lives any more, really.
Epiphany. The three wise men are done with by Christmas afternoon. Few people keep the Twelve Days now -- you see trees chucked out from New Year's Day. 6 January is much more likely to see people talking about their diet than the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
You see trees chucked out from New Year's Day.
I've seen them put out on Boxing Day!!!
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
You see trees chucked out from New Year's Day.
I've seen them put out on Boxing Day!!!
"Boxing Day: the day when you put all your decorations back in their boxes."
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Well, I never knew that ...
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Liturgically speaking, which church season do you feel is the least appreciated, pop culture-wise?
Advent has to be right up there, no? We don't have much 'waiting penitentially' among our post-post-podern lives any more, really.
I think people appreciate the idea, just not its timing. The only time I've felt I've really been able to live Advent properly for the mere three and a half weeks the church asks of us (on average) was as a novice, when I was secluded on a mountain in Colorado.
Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I cringe at prayers that contain the phrase 'we just want to thank you/ask you' etc ad infinitum instead of simply saying thank you Lord.
I know these as Jesus Weejus prayers: "Jesus Weejus thank you, and Jesus Weejus bless you..." etc.
Having shared that bit of snark, I am happy that anyone is praying at all! I would rather hear Jesus Weejus than condescending refusals to pray at all.
Strange how they have keep-alive strings in there as well - or do those prayers go through packet fragmentation?
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