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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Swapping sides tridentine-ly
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thwarted_thurifer
Apprentice
# 16177
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Posted
Quick question for anyone proficient in the 1962 gubbins, if * may....
* generally serve the old rite monthly. The chap * serve with is deaf to starboard, and so by agreement he stays on the Epistle side all the time, and * stay on the Gospel side. Not quite traditional, but there's utility in in.
This month, * served with someone else, so we did swapping sides. This always trips me up (and so * trip him up) but * realised it doesn't quite work. The old rule of "Book" is always on the opposite side to the Missal doesn't quite pan out at the end since the last gospel is rarely read from the missal.
So, what do people do? Does "Bell" sort out the cards for the prayers after Mass and the biretta, or do you swap sides pointlessly, as if you had moved the missal, even though you didn't move it?
The LMS' one-and-two server cards seem to assume in this that the swap takes place unless the missal is closed, but remain silent on what to do in that eventuality.
Staying where you are seems the logical choice, but * wondered what contemporary practice was?
Posts: 10 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Insufficient Calvinist Content.
THREAD CLOSED
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
He needs a friend to help him, soooo....
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
No.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
You're All Saints, can't you help?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
I am not entirely sure as to what is being asked here, but I believe that it relates to the switching of places by AC1 & 2 after the ablutions, when the missal and chalice veil are flitted to the opposite sides. Each AC ends up in the opposite place from where he was until that point in the Mass. The title of the post includes the word tridentine in it, so I'll bite.
As the MC for an FSSP parish, where the Tridentine Mass is used exclusively, I can say that the switching of places by the two ACs appears to me to be a distinctively Anglican practice. When I grew up as an Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian, we always did this, but I don't recall seeing it in the many years that I have been a RC involved with the Traditional Latin Mass. I have seen several different practices regarding the flitting of missal and chalice veil, but the two ACs always end up in their original places. Maybe it is done somewhere, but it is not the norm, and neither Fortescue nor O"Connell mention it.
I can detail the variations that I have seen and read, if needed, but I figured that it might not be needed, so I refrained in this post. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Why must it be done in any particular way other than whatever gets the stuff where it needs to be when it needs to be there, and keeps people from tripping over each other?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
At our place at the ablutions, the subdeacon is to the celebrant's right, and he or she is pouring water and handing things to MC to be put on the credence. The deacon is to the celebrant's left, and he or she is doing a little more heavy abluting. After the subdeacon pours water for the final ablution, he or she take the chalice veil, the deacon takes the missal, the deacon goes down to his or her step, the sub deacon goes down to his or her step, they meet in the middle in a line behind the celebrant, and then proceed up to their normal places.
Are you saying that at your place, the deacon and subdeacon aren't "reversed" at the ablutions? Are you saying that they are "reversed" but never go back? Either way, the missal has to get back the Epistle-side horn somehow. How do you accomplish that?
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Solemn Mass with deacon and subdeacon are a bit different, rubrically speaking, from a Low Mass or Missa Cantata, at which acolytes perform some of the tasks done by D & SD, such as flitting the missal.
In the Tridentine Mass, the D moves the missal back to the epistle side after the ablutions,then takes his usual spot on his step. Meanwhile, the SD carries the pall to the gospel side, then moves the sacred vessels from center to gospel side, and proceeds to purify them. AC2 brings the chalice veil to SD, who covers the sacred vessels when he has finished and carries them back to the credence table. He then takes his spot to behind the D.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
Oh sorry. I see. I didn't realize we weren't talking about high mass. Nevermind!
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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thwarted_thurifer
Apprentice
# 16177
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Posted
Low Mass was actually what I had in mind.
That being the case, if you have two servers, generally called "Bell" and "Book". "Book" attends to the missal, "Bell" to the bell, and both of them to the water and wine. According to those who taught me "Book" is always on the opposite side to the Missal (so, while the missal is being transferred from one side to the other, "Bell", having come to the centre and genuflected before the manoeuvre starts, neatly sidesteps across so "Bell" can take his place on returning, genuflect and separate.
"Bell" will sometimes move the chalice veil over after communion while "Book" moves the missal (although it's not an official practice, I understand it often happened as the veil was where the missal was destined to go.
So, that puts "Book" on the gospel side after the ablutions.
In the normal run of things, the missal would be transferred once more for the last gospel putting "Book" back on the epistle side ready to attend to the leonine prayers and the biretta, but in the revisions up to and including 1962, the last gospel being read from the missal became rarer.
That being the case, "Book" is on the wrong side for the bits at the end of Mass, as he hasn't moved anywhere as the missal isn't used for the normal last gospel.
I was wondering what the practice at the time was- I didn't quite think the servers crossed with no apparent purpose so assumes that "Bell" would attend to things over there- most official guides still seem to assume that the missal is moved for the last gospel (unless the priest has closed it) but don't mention what you do if it isn't moved.
However it looks like the swapping of sides done at Low Mass with one server was in my locality, may have been wrongly applied to low mass with two servers (so in that respect my question is answered) and the instruction I received from those who served back-in-the-day included a local (erroneous) custom- with one server, you do return to the epistle side for the last gospel (the opposite-side-to-the-missal rule) but you have business there afterwards.
So, it looks like I was asking a question based on an incorrect local practice, hence the question causing some confusion.....
As the man said, "custom without truth is the antiquity of error."
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